Is he ready to showcase?

Gator297 posted:

My son is an 8th grader (14yrs old), 6', 170lbs and still growing. He's left handed and has been pitching for 5 yrs. He also plays 1st and right field. GPA 4.0. He has good command and control on the mound. Last school season his ERA was 1.36/13.5 innings (not much time on the mound / team needed him on 1st).  His velocity is consistently between 69-72. Working on hitting 75 by start of this season. He plans on attending some camps / showcases this summer. With that said, I'm trying to get an idea if he would be competitive at these events or should he wait until his velocity is higher. I was told he should start now, but I'm not sure if the source was credible. Any insight is greatly appreciated.

.......Not yet. The magic number for LHP's at the NCAA Division 1 level is 85 mph. Until he sits in low 80's and maybe touches 84 I would not showcase him.

Also, be mindful of arm care. Summer / Winter no throw shut downs.

This whole recruiting thing looks like skill set, Velocity and development. It is. But it's not the entire picture. What not enough people tell you is how important arm care is.

Arm care is number #1

I dont think it is bad to showcase slightly before you are ready to gain experience but there is really no reason to go to a showcase if you throw low 70s no matter how projectable or young you are.

I would offer up a another thought.  Perhaps if we are talking bang for buck we should include some other options. We have many ways to spend money in baseball.  Equipment, travel teams, facility memberships, fitness memberships, fitness instruction, private lessons, showcases and camps.  I am sure I missed something.  I guess for those of us not having unlimited funds we have to prioritize.  I suppose if I had millions of dollars I might showcase my son before he is ready for the 'experience'.  But since my funds are very limited I have to make decisions.  So for me here is how it would break down in order of importance:

1. Travel Team/Facility - have to be on a team good enough to at least possibly be seen.  An organization with a great facility to get your work done is critical.  We are extremely lucky here as we just built a new facility 4 minutes from where I live!

2. Fitness - To me this is the one way too many people ignore.  Make yourself stronger, faster and more agile and a lot of the rest will fall into place.  I would spend here before camps, showcases or anything else.  If you are fortunate enough to have things at your disposal at your high school then great.  We have a $10 a month Xperience membership plus he now does almost everything at the school.  But personalized instruction would be great when possible.

3. Equipment - I am not talking the latest and greatest just making sure things are in good shape.  A bat that is not dead, gloves that won't bend back when the ball hits them etc.  A bat without pop could make the difference between a home run and a warning track fly ball.  A bad glove could lead to a key error right when a scout was watching.  Again not talking about $500 gloves, just in good shape.

4. College camps/showcases - I would put these together because i think it depends what kind of recruit you are.  For my son I think college camps are more important.  He is a great kid who is a great teammate with a great attitude and just good baseball skills.  Going to a showcase is not going to generate a feeding frenzy.  But picking a college at an APPROPRIATE level will give the coaches a chance to really get to know him.  They know they can't recruit the kid throwing 95 anyway cause he will go somewhere bigger.  So many colleges are more than happy with good players not great - especially if they are a good kid!  Even at D3 they don't recruit based upon being a good kid but it can be a difference maker between you and somebody else with the same skill set that they are less familiar with.  If my kid were a stud I would probably put showcase first.  Go and let the feeding frenzy begin.  The OP I would think falls more in the category of my son.

5. Lessons - Just not a believer.  I know there are probably some great ones out there but I haven't run into them yet.  Mostly snake oil salesmen.  Then there are the cookie cutter guys.  The tobacco spitters who don't think you need video etc.  Don't trust 'em.  Not sure I would use them if I had millions, sometimes hurt more than they help!

2020dad posted:

5. Lessons - Just not a believer.  I know there are probably some great ones out there but I haven't run into them yet.  Mostly snake oil salesmen.  Then there are the cookie cutter guys.  The tobacco spitters who don't think you need video etc.  Don't trust 'em.  Not sure I would use them if I had millions, sometimes hurt more than they help!

Gonna differ with you on this some.  It took some searching but my son has found a very good hitting coach.  It did take some work to find him and its more tweaking then lessons.  My son is a decent hitter.  Hit .565 over the summer HS season in the run up through the playoffs.  Mostly line drives up the gap to the fence for 2B.  His hitting coach has realized that he has a decent swing and is a good hitter.  He is more or less there to keep him swinging throughout the winter.  He understands his role and is happy to throw to him.  He does make a tweak or two once in a while but nothing drastic.  It does take some work, but you can find coaches who know what they are doing and understand their roles.

all seems like great advice,  my 14 yr old 8th grader 6"1 160  is throwing 80-82 and I kind of figured he will get noticed fairly quickly once he starts playing on summer teams in high school and was actually thinking we might not need to attend a show case,  but likely will be playing in PG events as his pitching coach takes teams every year.   Is that taking it too far the other way?

gunner34 posted:

all seems like great advice,  my 14 yr old 8th grader 6"1 160  is throwing 80-82 and I kind of figured he will get noticed fairly quickly once he starts playing on summer teams in high school and was actually thinking we might not need to attend a show case,  but likely will be playing in PG events as his pitching coach takes teams every year.   Is that taking it too far the other way?

Hi, I'm the parent of a 9th grader who is 14.  Since most of the players get talked to during or after their Junior year I don't see the harm in not showcasing until he's a rising Junior.  I made a comment in another thread about seeing the appeal of an early commitment being able to relax and not have to put his name out there and not have to email colleges and going to showcases...etc. PG responded with:

"The worst thing any young player who has committed early could do is avoid showing off what he can do.  Not only because that commitment isn't the LOI and things could change, but recruiters want to see their commits compete against highest level competition and all players need to develop.

i know from the older kids that work out with my son,  they are going to all the big events.  Jupiter,  Lakeland, Scottsdale and even though they have been committed for awhile they dont seem to shy away from competition.  There is always another notch they can get, make area code game roster,  PG all america etc and lately it seems they are more concerned with their draft status,  what are the pro scouts saying they need to work on.  I think the couple i talk to regularly might have done a showcase in conjunction with a weeklong tournament early on.  But PG seems to have all their measurables, velocity etc updated from every new event they play at.    but I dont know that any of them have attended a pure showcase in awhile.    Two of the kids are seniors this yr and another is a junior and they all 3 were commited as sophmores, actually 1 commited to LSU after his freshman year.  

Gunner, the thing is not every measurable is taken at the events that are taken at the showcases.  If your boy is a pitcher only then yes the velo is taken at every PG game.

CaCO3Girl posted:

gunner34 posted:

all seems like great advice,  my 14 yr old 8th grader 6"1 160  is throwing 80-82 and I kind of figured he will get noticed fairly quickly once he starts playing on summer teams in high school and was actually thinking we might not need to attend a show case,  but likely will be playing in PG events as his pitching coach takes teams every year.   Is that taking it too far the other way?

Hi, I'm the parent of a 9th grader who is 14.  Since most of the players get talked to during or after their Junior year I don't see the harm in not showcasing until he's a rising Junior.  I made a comment in another thread about seeing the appeal of an early commitment being able to relax and not have to put his name out there and not have to email colleges and going to showcases...etc. PG responded with:

"The worst thing any young player who has committed early could do is avoid showing off what he can do.  Not only because that commitment isn't the LOI and things could change, but recruiters want to see their commits compete against highest level competition and all players need to develop.

We do some showcases where most all the players have already made a commitment.  Many early commits are also thinking about early draft status.  And the best players simply love being around others considered the best players.  Committing early and thinking you have accomplished your mission... Is a recipe for disaster! IMO"

So...I'm guessing you should do the showcase routine regardless.

CaCo,   I'm not sure if you are asking about before commitment or after?    My opinion is that when you are starting the process- don't showcase until you are confident there's something to showcase, if he's ready, then go ahead.  just make sure that you are going to showcases that are reputable, and that coaches will be attending. 

After commitment, then the advice we received was to play at the highest level you can, and go to everything the pro scouts invite you to."  no need to continue with showcases- you'll naturally stay in front of college coaches if you are playing at a high level.  

If your kid has something to show (sounds like he does) then not a problem showcasing early.  Just pace your kid; most important are continued skill development, good competition, and you as a parent managing his arm.  Make sure you know what the fall tourney's are and the rigor of the off season training because you'll want to plan for solid shut down of your sons arm for 8-12 weeks to allow healing of soft tissue.  Not all coaches or programs are in agreement with length of time.  But scheduling down time is key to healthy happy competitive kid with bright future.

(slightly off topic, but important)

I'm a lurker, but had to post because I'm curious if anyone's advice would change under the following circumstances:

PBR has an event near by in a few weeks specifically for underclassmen that recent *accidental* developments have caused us to consider taking our 2020 son to (at the urging of  "others") that we otherwise wouldn't have considered just yet.

In a nutshell, the situation is this:

For reasons I'm not going to debate and discuss here, my son has never played "travel" ball-he's watched plenty of tourney games over the years and has subbed for teams, but he has never tried out to be a part of that scene full time. 

He has been a dominant pitcher and position player over the years in every venue he has competed in ("all star", "all state" type of stuff, subbing for travel teams,  or even when playing with and against older kids. (For the record, I know most of you would tell me  that kind of thing "doesn't count" in terms of how he really measures up against "real" competition-for the sake of pointless argument, let's just say I'll concede)

He is unlikely to play on his HS freshman team this year...sounds like he will be going straight to JV...at "least".

Even though he turned 15yo 2 weeks ago , we had never put him on a radar gun. Yeah, you read that right. It's not that we didn't know that others do this to their 5yos, it's that we just didn't believe in using a gun. Not worth detailing why (or debating ) the reasons we believed that here and now, other than to say that as far as we were concerned, mechanics were our main focus....and in our minds, his success suggested that he must've  been throwing "fast enough" over the years anyway. 

A few days before last weekend we heard about a local DIII school having a camp on Sunday and figured it would be a good place to get his feet wet (already had intentions of sending him to camps of colleges of interest going forward) if they'd let him attend even though he was class of 2020. The night before camp the coach said he could come, so he went. He "went last" in all of the stations (because he was a freshman "filler"/not an imminent prospect obviously), including pitching. In other words, he fielded a ton and took 5445566754 cuts before they ever put him on the mound. He looked to us like he did okay , but as I'm sure you can tell... we don't know much.

The coach took him aside after the camp, but we didn't think much of it. However, by the next afternoon, that coach had called his HS coach about him-apparently besides mechanics and secondary and location etc. that impressed him, he also threw 78-80mph...again, after going thru the other stations of which coach indicated wasn't ideal . 

This whole situation has created a bit of a whirlwind for the simple fact that news of this "velocity" and "1-camp-1-call"  travelled to the ears of people who thought he should've been playing here or there or doing whatever else he wasn't doing per correct "recipe" over the years, so they have come out of the woodwork to basically say, "told ya so"-that he was "too good" to not play travel ball etc. Funny thing is that I feel like maybe I'm the one that should be saying "told ya so" to them, but whatever, I digress. Anyway, in all of the "advice" we've gotten since, the PBR event stuck out as one thing that maybe he should consider doing as a first step into the most typically "approved of" prep path. Ya know, a "get him on the map" type of thing....

Now, before I hear how "average" his velocity is compared to highly touted others, let me just put it out there that I get it-I read their bios, too.��  I think the point of why this velocity is so "projectable" (as I understand it) is that he's a "limby" 5'9" 142lb YOUNG freshman (we forgot to redshirt our kindergartener) who has more days of puberty left to go than he's put in, who has never played an out of HS baseball yet, AND who has an arm with far fewer hard miles or bad habits on it than a lot of kids. That being said, despite that velocity perhaps being considered "average" by some of you ("nothing to show"), I'm curious if y'all feel  that a PBR event specifically for underclassmen would be a good match for a kid whose been quietly doing his thing in the shadows until this point, even if you have cautioned against early showcasing for others? Obviously our personal choices thus far indicate that we have ZERO problem staying in these shadows even longer, but we knew we wouldn't  stay here forever...so is earlier better than later in my son's case?

A couple things.  I saw you're in Indiana.  I'm in Ohio, so our HS baseball is similar.  1) a PBR event is a good start...they are reasonable and will get you "on the map".  2)  Unless your son is at a top level HS in one of the bigger cities in IN, you're likely never going to see a coach other than a local D3 come to his games...unless he's coming to specifically see a kid.  They don't just go out and "scout" HS games like they do travel ball.  3) If your son is serious about playing in college, getting with a good travel program for this summer would be a good idea.  They won't get many looks at 14U or 15U, but it's much tougher to get into a good program at 16U than it is at 14U or 15U.   To really be seen, he'll want to be playing in the right tourneys/events at 16U and 17U.  My son played in events at Grand Park in Indy that had 35-40 D1 coaches in attendance when he was playing 17U.   Sounds like your son has a good start.  I guess the only other thing I would say is this....if a D3 coach sees a 2020 who is 78-80, he may be thinking...."Great, this kid may be 85-86 when he's in college...I can use him".....but a D1 won't consider him until he's likely going to be a 90+mph kid in college.

LB,

Unless you're considering committing to an offer in the near future, I would suggest you wait until after his freshman year to attend any showcase.  Simply for the same reason's you've done what you've done to this point.  You're focusing on the right things and not chasing anything.  To that point, it's too early to chase anything at this time.  Wait until he's a rising sophomore or junior, then consider a showcase.  My absolute best advice to you would be to do nothing more than a local showcase in your area just to acclimate him to the format and process (will be similar to the camp you did) after his freshman year.  Then look to attend the PG Junior National after his sophomore year.  That will certainly set the bar of where he is as a rising junior which is the sweet spot for recruitment.

If you are going to begin showcasing at this early an age, understand clearly why you're doing it and make sure it aligns with whatever goals your son may have for his baseball future.  But until you're ready to say yes or no to offers, it doesn't make sense to "put yourself on a radar".

LB,

In my opinion, you have to ask yourself what you want to get out of the showcase.  I think the biggest positive for you would be to have objective third-party measurements/evaluations that could get the attention of the best travel teams where he could potentially start playing.  Maybe even teams that you don't even know exist yet.

He will eventually(sounds like now) need to be on top travel teams to be seen by the most coaches/scouts.  Not saying he can't be recruited while in the shadows, but wouldn't you rather have hundreds of coaches taking a look during a single event  than 1 or 2 at whatever camps you happen to attend?  If he has is heart set on just a few colleges, maybe that doesn't matter, stay on the path you are on.  But if he is open to opportunities at places you have never heard of or considered before, cast the widest net you can...and I don't think that can be done from the shadows.

If you are going to showcase to generate college interest, I personally think it is too early for that.  Nothing binding can happen for 3 more years, so why deal with all the drama?  I guarantee that there are coaches who will love him now that won't offer him a piece of paper to sign when the time comes....and there are coaches who won't have a bit of interest now that will be willing to offer if he continues to grow and increase velocity for the next three years.

LB, what's your goal in attending the PBR event?  Is it to get measurables, get college interest, make some contacts?   Let's say he does everything there that you would want him to do....what comes of it?  What are you looking for?

LB posted:

 

Now, before I hear how "average" his velocity is compared to highly touted others, let me just put it out there that I get it-I read their bios, too.��  I think the point of why this velocity is so "projectable" (as I understand it) is that he's a "limby" 5'9" 142lb YOUNG freshman (we forgot to redshirt our kindergartener) who has more days of puberty left to go than he's put in, who has never played an out of HS baseball yet, AND who has an arm with far fewer hard miles or bad habits on it than a lot of kids. That being said, despite that velocity perhaps being considered "average" by some of you ("nothing to show"), I'm curious if y'all feel  that a PBR event specifically for underclassmen would be a good match for a kid whose been quietly doing his thing in the shadows until this point, even if you have cautioned against early showcasing for others? Obviously our personal choices thus far indicate that we have ZERO problem staying in these shadows even longer, but we knew we wouldn't  stay here forever...so is earlier better than later in my son's case? 

Welcome LB. If your son was 15 yo, 6'4", 170 lbs...  I'd say get out there and get him into the PBR database. But from what you've described (I'm assuming he throws right handed), like the others, I'd say you're fine remaining in the shadows for another year. And also like others have said, make sure he's playing high level competition this summer. Also, I didn't understand what you meant by "YOUNG". If my math is correct, most kids turn 15 in the 9th grade.

Enjoy your son's first year of high school baseball. The years really start flying by now.

For perspective I attached top 12 ranked 2020 RHP's fromPBR:   https://www.prepbaseballreport...436085291-5736241980

Concur with above comments from our members who have tons of experience.  One thought is that if he did attend the PBR event and showed well he'd be in the "queue"  for upcoming invite only events which PBR hosts.  That is a key thing if he truly wants to play in college and is motivated to improve his skill set.  Lots of colleges will show up to late summer PBR event at Grand Park (incoming soph and incoming junior year events).

Regarding PG Junior National, typically you have to go to an earlier PG showcase that year, perform well, and be named to the top prospect team to get an invite.  Pretty certain that's the case...

You've kept your son in the shadows, ok great, you've kept him healthy with fewer miles on the arm, you've played more golf because you haven't been occupied with travel tourney schedules in the summer, and you got confirmation your son is a decent player or pitcher.  It's about continuted skill development, strength, arm care, and finding a spot on a club team that plays good competition where he can develop himself as a player and teammate.  Completely different game environment with top club teams vs the local, and some cases regional team.

Is he flatlined at 5'9?  Size in the family? What height does he project?  My boys were capped at 5'11 per the Pediatrician, so I encouraged playing MIF, developed their skills accordingly, and "tried" to keep them off the mound.  My 2018 can pitch well, has decent velo, but it's not his strength and that's not where he projects as a college player, so he hasn't been pitching at showcase events.  He was 5'8 140 as a frosh, now 5'10 175 as a junior.

What is your son interested in?  He could be upbeat about baseball now with the recent showcase, but let's see how he is when his schedule gets busy and he has to go to off season training, pitching lessons, bull pens.  You might want to get him started, because it's a time commitment and he won't be hanging out with certain friends any more because of different schedules and a change of interest. And the parents will have a different schedule along with greater monthly expenses.  Lots of things to consider, but if he is into developing himself as a player, go for it.

Just thinkin out aloud... Good luck

LB, welcome to the other side,

I think your plan and thought process to date are very good.  Based on the fact that he has stood out at each level he has played and he is getting push from multiple sources, this nearby PBR seems to be a logical choice if all the other checks are in place (he is in decent playing condition, arm is healthy and prepared to perform, cost is within budget, etc.).  He can dip his foot into the format, get continued/heightened feedback for where he may stand in the bigger picture, start making contacts with likely future travel teams, get some base measurables, it's "nearby" so no associated travel expenses, etc.  At the same time, as others have said, he isn't to the point where he is a clear D1 projectable, so if you wait a year, you'll be fine with that direction as well.

As always, be sure not to let the distraction of travel/recruiting activities take away from the enjoyment of HS baseball and the HS years.  Sounds like you are all over that one.

Gov posted:

 

Regarding PG Junior National, typically you have to go to an earlier PG showcase that year, perform well, and be named to the top prospect team to get an invite.  Pretty certain that's the case...

 

To help clarify this, you don't have to attend an earlier showcase, although that's the normal path.  Performing well and being noticed in their events will garner an invite.  Also, you can request an invite and some validation from trusted sources (respected and known travel ball coach, area scout, HS coach) can often get a player an invite.

My son had played in multiple PG tournaments but never a showcase.  He received an invite to the Jr. National based on performances in those events.

Thanks so much for all of  the responses. I really dont want to get caught up in clarifying  details re. some assumptions that have been made in replies, so I'm just going to leave those alone and  hope that further explanation is unlikely to change anyone's opinions.

To answer the really great question of what we might hope to gain from attending the PBR 8th, 9th and 10th grade event next month...the only response I have to that is:

Because some of you super smart baseball people types I know personally suggested he go? To maybe get his name out there pre freshman HS season? To maybe start to make up some ground in the "prospect race" that Ive been lead to believe that not playing travel ball thus far has to have most certainly created for him? To give him some early experience in those settings (the same way the D3 camp was approached)? 

 I mean, he's definitely going to do more than he's been doing, it has never been our intention to just wait around and see who shows up at his HS games (or to JUST do college camps). We aren't quite that dumb. Instead, it's only a matter of deciding if this particular event (designed for underclassmen) might have presented an opportunity, or warranted  a reason for him to start doing the stuff everyone else has already been doing sooner than later. 

I appreciate the input and I will spend some time reading everything again much more carefully. You all have been very helpful as if left to him to decide, he'd go just because he heard there was baseball to be played there, and if left to his parents, we'd probably just skip it. 

LB I sent you a PM, check for a red number in the upper right part of the screen near your name.

Also, I didn't understand what you meant by "YOUNG". If my math is correct, most kids turn 15 in the 9th grade.

He could be considered "young" in the pool of current highly rated 2020's.  Took a quick look at PG Top 10 and most are maybe 6 months older and it looks like that Top 10 does not really have many really older kids.  Just the whole idea of holding some kid back and having them graduate upwards of 19yo and over just seems weird.  Freshman baseball players should not have their drivers license yet.  Young is when they don't get their drivers license until after the sophomore year.

The kid does sound intriguing in that he was throwing very well this early in the year.  Assuming there are events within reason in early summer, I'd think letting him pitch during the high school season and see how things progress and then determine if an early summer showcase might be appropriate.

2017LHPscrewball posted:

Also, I didn't understand what you meant by "YOUNG". If my math is correct, most kids turn 15 in the 9th grade.

He could be considered "young" in the pool of current highly rated 2020's.  Took a quick look at PG Top 10 and most are maybe 6 months older and it looks like that Top 10 does not really have many really older kids.  Just the whole idea of holding some kid back and having them graduate upwards of 19yo and over just seems weird.  Freshman baseball players should not have their drivers license yet.  Young is when they don't get their drivers license until after the sophomore year.

The kid does sound intriguing in that he was throwing very well this early in the year.  Assuming there are events within reason in early summer, I'd think letting him pitch during the high school season and see how things progress and then determine if an early summer showcase might be appropriate.

 

The OP's son isn't young for 2020 nationally, he's young for up there.  It depends on the age cutoff in the state.  My 2020 won't be 15 until August, at which point he will be a sophomore.  August birthday with the school cutoff being 9/1.

Since others were kind enough to clarify what I meant, I will support their thoughts:

My son is one of the youngest boys in his entire class of 240ish and if he isn't THE youngest male athlete in his class, he's 2nd (there is a boy on his football team who I know is young, too, just can't remember which one is youngEST). This is not unusual here locally for sure-boys are often held back from kindergarten (sometimes even later ugh) as all youth basketball (king here in Indiana) and football programs are "grade based"(so the older a 3rd grader, the better I guess), and we are a LL charter so "baseball age" used to make 13yos 12 anyway. Lol 

Seems to be at least a regional thing, also-it's not at all unusual for male freshman athletes we know/have faced etc. across the tri-state to be every bit of 15 1/2 or darn-near-16yo already, if not ACTUALLY 16.  I'm really sorry that I even mentioned it, I guess what I was told here and what I had thought I'd seen in my laps around the internet was wrong- my kid is not young at all for a freshman "hopeful". My bad.

LB, welcome to the site.

I agree with Cabbagedad: probably worth doing since it is local. But I wouldn't worry about it too much. If he goes to the PBR event and is clocked at 78-80 as you say -- that is a solid speed for a freshman pitcher -- it wouldn't expect Vandy to make an immediate offer!  OTOH, on the plus side it may get him on the radar (pun intended) of a good travel program in your state, if that is something you are interested in.

Regarding your question about "is earlier better than later in my son's case?" I dunno. No one on here has seen your kid pitch or has seen him at all, so it's kind of hard for us to project. The averages really mean nothing in an individual case. For example, the average kid grows 2 inches after turning 15, and puts on about 30 pounds (see attached) but you'll have a lot better idea about how your kid is likely to grow than anybody on here will. Similarly, if you look at Perfect Game averages, the average senior throws about 8 mph harder than the average freshman -- but, again, in your individual son's case, of course that doesn't mean he'll throw 86-88 as a senior; he could, or he could end up higher or lower than that average. You'll have a lot better idea of that than we will. And, really, if he ends up higher (say, 90) than it won't really matter what the results were when he attended a PBR event in 9th grade.

Just based on your description, it sounds like he has talent. Good luck. If you do attend, it would be great to hear a report back to let us know what you thought of the event.

P.S. -- let me add that it is very smart on your part not to "get caught up in clarifying  details re. some assumptions that have been made in replies, so I'm just going to leave those alone and  hope that further explanation is unlikely to change anyone's opinions." I once did the opposite and ended up starting a thread that went over 200 posts (and not in a good way).

My opinion.  Save the money.  HS ball is a few weeks away.  Is he even ready to showcase -- i.e.; in mid season form.   Make the team and see how his season shakes out.  Then based on how he does in HS, consider the pbr showcase over the summer.