It can be a business and a tough one

Very true. But as you say, it can be done.

Mariota gets the award he came back for: A college degree

I know this is the exception that proves your rule, BOF, but I think that with technology enabling anytime, anywhere learning ... and emphasis ... more D1's will successfully integrate high academics with athletics in the future.

(But of course, I've been guilty of wishful thinking when it comes to my kids before!)

BOF,

Are you on the right or left of the emoticon?

Ted

So, from 1957 - 1973 all NCAA sports scholarships were required to be 4-yr guaranteed deals. My understanding is that coaches pushed for the change to year-to-year scholarships because they felt they had no control over the athletes. So does anyone know how things worked back then in regards to some of the issues we're discussing?

Interestingly, I read an article on this subject last year and it was amazing how many NCAA athletes assumed that their scholarships already were 4-year deals. There were guys who didn't even get the clue from the yearly renewal paperwork.

Been doing some  roster research at my son's school the last couple of weeks, just to get a more realistic picture of what might be in store for him.  Your point about attrition along the way seems to me to be very well taken. Just as an example, at my son's school over the past several years on the order of 9 or 10 non-senior players each year who are on the roster at year x are not on the roster at year x + 1.  That's roughly a1/3 of the roster.  The number of seniors each year is somewhat inflated by a steady but small stream of JC transfers.   Which I found a little surprising for a D3.  

Not sure how much that generalizes or if it varies from level to level  Couldn't say whether the attrition is more or less severe at D1's as opposed to D3'. Of course, D1's, at least top ones, tend to have a lot fewer seniors because many juniors get drafted.   But I'm willing to believe that independently of the draft, attrition is high at any level. 

Not saying attrition is necessarily a bad thing either.  I  know that when I myself stopped wrestling at the beginning of my junior season in college -- something I had been doing at a high level through junior high, high school, summer AAU tournaments, and for two years in college -- it actually felt like a great weight had finally been lifted -- even though I loved wrestling -- and that I was actually for the first time an actual full out college student.   I imagine many give up baseball in college with the same sort of feeling.

Several years ago transfers were the common thing in college baseball.  Transfers were so common it was impossible to keep up with all of them.

So in that regard some of the new rules have really cut back on the number of transfers.  Especially that one year no play rule for DI.

Is it a good thing?  I don't see the 4 year scholarship as being that big a deal.  If they don't want you they will work to get rid of you.  And for those they want to keep, even the player wanting to transfer, might think twice.  So the result is less transfers.

Thanks for sharing your family's experience, that is a real eye opener...

I'm not sure I understand how anyone would not be aware of the scholarship details.  It spells it out very clearly on the NLI that is signed by the student-athlete as exactly what the scholarship covers and for what period of time.  Now as far as changes to the scholarship after the first year, we haven't crossed that bridge yet.

CaCo,

As you pointed out previously, it is always appropriate to recommend prioritizing academics over athletics, as is often stated here.  I don't think anyone is saying that wouldn't be the advice.  I think the many comments, including mine, are just pointing out that the reality is the pursuit of passion and dreams can muddy the waters significantly when push comes to shove and sometimes what seems the obvious logical path to many isn't necessarily the best for a given individual.

My other two...

..oldest son is in grad school for physical therapy.  An absolute fit for his personality and passion.  Our advice to him along the way was just to make sure he finishes his schooling before he gets married and starts a family.  Yeah, well he is now married with two kids, he and his wife balanced schedules (she an engineer) going through school with kids.  She graduated and is in the work force.  He temporarily detoured so that she could finish up and now he is back at it with finishing his grad work.  Definitely not the path of sound logical advice but the grandkids are remarkable treasures and mom and dad have found a way to get it done... the hard way.

... middle daughter is set for nursing school.  Our advice to her coming out of HS was to make sure she stayed in college so she wouldn't let life derail her direction.  She loves to travel.  It has taken her far too long with several skipped semesters to complete all of her pre-major prerequisites.  She traveled to South America for several months.  She went to Mexico for a while to kite-surf.  She is going to Thailand for a few months ("maybe longer, we'll see what there is to see") this fall.  She did this all on her own, going to school for a while, working several jobs like crazy for a while, then just taking time off, wash, rinse, repeat.  Meanwhile, she did finish those pre-major courses, will do volunteer nursing work while in Thailand to build her portfolio and seems as focused as ever with a plan toward that nursing degree upon her return... getting it done the hard way.  (I'm starting to think that's our family motto.)    

This sure as heck isn't the path we had in mind for her.  Sure as heck isn't what traditional common sense logic would suggest.  But, WOW, has she done some amazing things with her life already and is still on track to cover the few requirements on dad's checklist.

Yes, continue to trumpet the virtues of academics and doing things the right way.  But expect the curve balls, love 'em, support 'em and respect that they will have to do things on their own terms. 

You know, the thing is when you're young you can be carefree and take risks.  So I say go for it.  There will always be traditional academics when you're done.  Just make sure that it is also included in your plans. 

I did it the "traditional way."  4 years of school.  Check.  Job.  Check.  Wife. Check. Kid. Check.  Then one day I woke up and realized there where many things I was supposed to do that I didn't.  Real life got in the way.  Now the risk is too high as I have obligations - can't much quit your job when you have to put a kid thru college in a few years.   

Some of these stories are just so depressing.  Is this really how we should treat people, let alone college students? 

I am rethinking whether the kid should even try to play at the next level.  Doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun to me. 

The NCAA is _____________ (Fill in the blank).

Let me offer a different scenario. What if pursuing baseball in lieu of the better academic opportunity offers a chance for personal growth/development that ultimately leads to "better" career/life opportunities?

My son was recruited late his senior year. Previously he had been accepted into an engineering program at a prestigious college (non-baseball) but was then offered a preferred walk-on opportunity at another high-caliber college, a college he would not have a attended absent baseball. Against the better advice of this message board but with some encouraging nudging by me, he chose baseball which, as he soon learned, was not compatible with studying engineering. Fast forward. He graduated this past spring. While his baseball experience fell short of his hopes, he had a great overall experience and was a solid contributor throughout his career. On Senior Day we exchanged a teary hug and he thanked me for encouraging him to pursue baseball, telling me "it was the best experience (and decision) of his life."

As a result of his college baseball experience, his personal growth was tremendous. He gained a lot of personal confidence and grew into a strong and highly respected team leader. As he launched his job search, it quickly became apparent that he was very attractive to prospective employers, landing job offers with the first two employers he spoke to (both large, national companies) and serious interest among several others. He enthusiastically started his "career" earlier this month.

Although we will never know for sure, I believe in my heart (self-fulfilling prophecy?) that in terms of realizing his life's potential and happiness, he made the right choice. Among the positives - taking chances, work ethic, dealing with adversity, perseverance, friendships, confidence, comfort with uncertain and new situations, leadership, ability to handle stress, criticism and failure. Among the negatives - he's not an engineer?  

Some people are free spirits and I applaud making your own path in the world.  I too went the traditional route, and I love the stability my chosen path has resulted in.  It may not be for everyone, it may not work for my son, but haven't parents been grumbling about their kids choices since the dawn of time?

So, this entire discussion kind of sounds like a situation normal all muddied up type thing.

There is a book Meat On The Hoof from when Darryl Royal coached Texas football. This was during the four year scholarship era. In the book it said if he had no use for a player he had him hold a blocking dummy and run play after play over him until the player quit.

Hmm.... going to a school for academics and playing for the club team doesn't sound too bad anymore

If in fact college is to prepare our sons for the "real" (business) world, then year to year baseball scholarships make sense. We all know in the business world, our performance is evaluated yearly. Just an early dose of the "what have you done for me lately" mantra.

The original post is pretty much an anomaly.  I understand that there have been a lot of negative scenarios presented here and they do happen.  I have seen a lot of kids come and go, not only from my son's school, but following some of the kids he has played with as well.

However, there are many, many positive stories as well.  My son was offered a baseball scholarship at his school.  The coach told him he would honor it all four years, unless some off the field issues prevented that.  The coach held true to his word.  My son is a senior this year and it has all worked out.  There are many, many other stories like this.  Some coaches will mess with scholarship money, some coaches will be true to their word and continue to offer the award each year for the 4 years.  This is why a player and family should do research prior to signing.  Check with former players and their families.  See if the coach did what he said he would.

Is there a risk with all this?  yep.  But, there are plenty of positive stories along with the horror stories we have heard throughout this thread.

Just thought I'd throw that in there.  

Tell that to these guys.

And yes, I know everyone doesn't have this much fun.  

Or these guys.  This is an audio clip from a game my son's team played the year before last.  My son started pitching the game, left in the 8th with one out ahead 2-1.  Game wound up going into the 10th inning with this clip describing the last play.  This game put us in the D2 Regional finals.  We had to beat the #3 team in the country twice to go to the CWS.  Beat them the first game, snapping their 20 game win streak and came up just short in the second game.  But this game was just an awesome experience.  Listening to this still gives me chills!!

http://m.newsradio540.com/arti...-tournament-12365017

What a great thread with so many diverse opinions and stories.  I think the title is perfect - it is a business, and it's a tough one.  In my opinion, it is a tough business, and the playing field isn't always level.  Coaches and universities understand it well, players and families (of prospective incoming players) simply do not.  I think that's why it is so often viewed as unfair, and why there are so many tales of disappointment and situations not working out as players and families had hoped. 

I do think that there is terrific value in the lessons learned by playing baseball in college.  My biased view as a Dad of one playing in college, and soon to be two, is that the experience will make them better men, and someday to be better emplyees with solid careers.  I flatly disagree with the premise that it is just a piece of paper and it doesn't matter where it comes from.  I just don't think that's true, but I respect those who may not share the view.  Son 1 utilized his baseball skill to gain admission into a high academic D1 school that I don't believe he could have gained admission to otherwise.  I believe that decision, to forgo several opportunities to play at a higher baseball level, will pay dividends for the rest of his life.  Others may disagree.  He will get to maintain his passion to play and derive all the associated benefits. 

Good luck to all.

I will concede that there are schools that are definitely better.  If you are talking about the Ivy's, Stanford, Patriot League, high academic D3s with incredible reputations, etc...  These are schools beyond parallel.  But, not everyone can go to these schools.  Unfortunately, my son did not have anywhere near the grades to get into any of these types of schools.  MOST students don't.  For most average students, it is the degree that matters, and not so much where it came from once you get below the Super Elite schools.

Trying to compete on a college baseball field involves being willing to confront risk.  For most, the risks are many and are started, at least as a freshman, during a time of tremendous uncertainty  associated with being away from home and in college.

With that said, I would think think the majority love college baseball.  The experience in a well run program, at any level, can be exhilarating.  Necessarily that would be true when more is risked, more effort than the player and family thought possible was expended, and after 3-4 years, there are wonderful results, amazing team experiences, and a degree. 

One thing I loved/love about our son's college coach is that college and baseball were not all about college and baseball. One aspect he discussed from the very first conversation was about baseball allowing our son to see areas of the County he might never visit and to meet and experience people and places which would open his eyes and mind because of how different, and usually wonderful, they would be as contrasted with Northern CA.  Every aspect of the coaches insights proved true.

The main reason I started this thread was to help many realize that playing college baseball involves risk and the bigger the risks, the bigger rewards.  Implied in the message is the concept that trying to "negotiate" or "extract" guarantees for our son's in college, whether for a roster spot or scholarship, might be ill-conceived. 

While I realize many could question this, I think our son's learn many and more valuable life lessons which will apply long after college and baseball by taking their own risks, making their own choices, making mistakes along the way and truly "earning" every minute of playing time they spend on a college baseball diamond.

While very few will ever dogpile on a diamond in a CWS, many will "dogpile" at different points or in different ways through the experience of college baseball.

The experience of college baseball truly should be what our sons  make of it. Most college coaches want that as much for our son's when they recruit them as we do, and some possibly more.  Really good college baseball coaches see talent and ability in our sons which we don't and our sons don't.

It is so rewarding at the end of 3-4 years, when our son, and his family, realize the process was tough, but the coach was right in what he saw and projected. So many times that kid playing his last college baseball game as a junior or senior is so much different than the one who left home just a few years back.  We cannot underestimate how a "good" college baseball experience contributes to that development, especially when our son "earned" it and made all the tough choices to get him in a position to "earn" it.

I concur with the prior two posts (from bballman and 9and7dad).

In the situation I am most familiar with, kid swallowed hard and stuck to his list of 10 or so high academic schools. Said no to opportunities to play at mid-academic-level D3s and JUCOs.

Applied early to a super-high academic D3 where he was recruited, but was deferred and ultimately rejected. Got into a high academic D3, regular decision, where he was recruited but turned that down too, to enroll at an Ivy where there had been some interest from the coaches but no slot.

Bottom line: walked on and made the Ivy squad. He chose the school for academic reasons--nothing related to baseball--so every day that he is able to continue to play baseball is looked on as a blessing.

This is one case, and I know anecdotes are not facts, where placing academics over baseball was amply rewarded

Hmm. Sounds like employment.

Lots of great stories and advice in this thread.  The college baseball experience has been so very rewarding to so many.  I coached at two small colleges, it was the most fun I have ever had in baseball.  Some of the best all around kids I have ever known. Life long friendships developed. Pretty much every player that played on those teams is someone I would hire.  Pretty much all are successful, three actually played in the Big Leagues and several others played minor league ball. Now I am watching some of their sons play baseball.

There's nothing wrong with just getting your education and not playing baseball.  But if you have some baseball ability, you don't know what you're missing. It might be the best of all baseball experiences.

Unfortunately there are some horror stories and bad experiences.  This world is full of them.

That really nails it.  Our son graduated last spring after four years of college ball, and is now working his first "fully self-sufficient post-grad job" in Japan, which took a lot of guts to take on.  Everything is great, but he said he misses "playing baseball with his friends." That's what is going to last for him, the lifelong friendships that were built, the funny, funny stories both on and off the diamond, etc.  I know he doesn't miss the workouts, training, etc.!

Lots of good stuff in this topic, perhaps it should go into the gold column.

Yes, college baseball can be very difficult and challenging and often it doesnt turn out the way the player and family expected.  My son had a wonderful experience, pretty lucky. Good coaching staff, and 3 very successful seasons.  But trust me when i say it didnt come with a lot of blood, sweat and yes tears.

I am a firm believer that education should be the primary goal, with baseball a way to offset the costs.  I do understand that many times there is a compromise. Son went to a great school with a great program, but he did have to compromise his degree choice. He was told on his visit, that if he planned on an engineering degree, it wasnt going to work.

For him baseball was far more important than a degree in engineering and no one thought he would finish in 4 straight years anyway.  People say that many baseball players often take the easy way out, easier degrees.  I agree, yet I understand. Baseball season at the D1 level is very very very long.  

If my son were more inclined to talk about being something other than a baseball player, he would have gone to another program for another area of study. In other words if he wanted to be a doctor, but saw a better opportunity in a better school and still play, that would work. There would have been no way he could have played at the level he did and get an engineering degree.

So if your son lives and breathes baseball, and wants to play after college, and tells you the baseball program is more important than the exact degree, after he spent almost all of his youth on a baseball field, you are going to suggest that he take another path??

Justbaseball has made some great points, you really dont know how you will approach this dilemma until you reach it.  Same with knowing that you are not a high priority on the coaches list. Again,  you will never know until you face the dilemma. 

It would be difficult for "all else to be equal".  The baseball player is committing 40+ hours per week to baseball, what's the non-athlete doing?  Studying, working in a lab, doing internships and research, etc.  Student athletes get a lot out of the experience, but they are giving up a lot at the same time.

True enough, today; but, if you look at the waning number of households renewing cable and satellite dish contracts versus the revenue projections that fueled the creation of conference networks and purchase of rights to college athletics broadcasts, the graph of those two closely resembles that of the rising cost of entitlement payments to an aging American population versus the declining value of the fund responsible for meeting that cost.

If the broadcasters fail to realize the optimistic projections upon which their generous bids were based in the past, you'd better believe that they will take every opportunity to reduce their payouts to the NCAA and various conferences when contracts come up for renewal. Then, once the "golden goose" begins to falter, it won't be football and basketball that will feel the greatest pinch from declining broadcast revenue sources. Instead, it'll be the "non-revenue" sports that will suffer most; despite the fact that they are already bringing up the rear.

The increasingly popular "a la carte" method of watching broadcasted media is, ultimately, a serious threat to college athletic departments in the future. One is left to wonder how "giddy" some college officials are going to be when ESPN and its competitors plunk down the latest, sobering set of financial data in front of them in advance of contract negotiations.

Great stuff on this thread. However, something I noticed here is that posters continue to use and do math with the NCAA 11.7 scholarship number. That is fine as long as they understand that MOST programs are NOT fully funded.An 11.7 fully funded school is rare. Just want to make sure I'm clear about that. 'Group think' on HSBBWEB is NCAA D-1 equals 11.7 across the board......That is inaccurate.

Here is an excerpt from a July 17 2015 interview with NCAA director of baseball Damani Leech:

“Two years ago we did an analysis and the number of programs at 11.7 were SMALL, but there were a lot in that 9-10.7 counters type of range. They weren’t quite fully funded,”

 *It is also worth pointing out that student financial aid/need based aid monies are DEBITED against the allotment of scholarship money a baseball department has. 

Is there an unbiased way to tell how many scholarships a school is handing out?

a monopoly....interested in making money for itself and its member institutions.  If you think the NCAA is about "student-athletes"....you are delusional.  In the context of this thread "it can be a business and a tough one" I thought I throw that out there.  But business can be a heck of a lot easier if there is no competition.  

Great stuff on this thread. However, something I noticed here is that posters continue to use and do math with the NCAA 11.7 scholarship number. That is fine as long as they understand that MOST programs are NOT fully funded.An 11.7 fully funded school is rare. Just want to make sure I'm clear about that. 'Group think' on HSBBWEB is NCAA D-1 equals 11.7 across the board. That is totally inaccurate

good point, a coach at a small eastern d1 recently gave our team and parents a presentation, his estimate was that there were about 70 programs that were fully funded.

Way to good of a comment to not be reposted!!

This post actually hits on a question I've always had.

Is it that the 11.7 aren't available to the HC to distribute (i.e., the School/AD has capped somewhere below 11.7), or is it that HC's hold back some portion of their 11.7 each year (or get some back via the drafted commits that opt to go pro) to use to fill holes created by draft, leaving players, etc., and simply never distribute all of it each year?

If you consider that each year schools don't get 100% of their commits, there's always some fluidity between that 11.7 and what's actually consumed.  Seems like a lot of moving targets to hit each year where a schools would consume 100% of their allotment unless a coach hands out money mid year (right after spring roster is set).

Ad to Red Fish's question, if capped, is there anywhere that the amount of equivalency scholarships can be found for a school?

Is it that the 11.7 aren't available to the HC to distribute (i.e., the School/AD has capped somewhere below 11.7), or is it that HC's hold back some portion of their 11.7 each year (or get some back via the drafted commits that opt to go pro) to use to fill holes created by draft, leaving players, etc., and simply never distribute all of it each year?

I would say both.  But I think the point being made is that there are a lot of D1 programs that are not fully funded to the 11.7.  Adding more complication, in some cases, a program could be funded at the 11.7 level but only for in-state players and so the coach has to figure out how to balance in-state players vs.  the higher cost of bringing in an out of state player and how that reduces whatever his AD has given to him budget-wise.

Maybe someone knows where that information can be found, but I do not.  In our recruiting journeys, the coach would often tell us, 'We are a fully funded scholarship baseball program' or 'My AD has given me budget to use 4 of my 11.7 for out of state players.'

Not really.  As an employee I have certain "protections."  Things like wage/hour and discrimination laws.  Many times companies provide severance pay, or at least unemployment insurance, if I am laid off.  When I am let go, I can generally go to any employer I want, even competitors, and I don't have to sit out a year.   

That was sort of my point. If you want to treat College athletes like employees, then they need the same protections. If I'm being convinced to move across country to take a job, I don't want to lose it based simply on the fact that my boss may have found someone he thinks could possibly do a better job than me.

Welcome to the world of NCAA baseball!

Regarding my OP about 4 year guarantees. It was not my intention to be angry, mad or hateful. Thank you to those that sent me PM's with your kind words.

My post was only to point out that no matter what is said, written or promised,  nothing is guaranteed in NCAA baseball. Our family is blessed, PO jr gets the opportunity to play ball another year, meet new friends and continue his educational journey.

Life lessons sometimes come with hard journey's.

Someone much wiser then me once told my son "sucking in baseball is nothing compared to sucking in life, make sure you get an education".