It can be a business and a tough one

 As it has been stated many times on this site baseball ends for everyone at some point.  If it was clear it was ending for my son in 2 years I would beg him to stay and get his degree and join a local rec league to get his baseball fix.

 

Players do have a limited window to play, but I would argue there is a limited window for education as well, life gets in the way.  With a 4 year college degree he would be qualified for more than working at McDonald's or breaking his back to earn a living.

 

We will have to agree to disagree on this one.Good luck to you and your son, I hope you are never faced with this choice.

 

There have been a lot of good ideas shared here. My son is a freshman this year. Things are always fluid, but at this point in his life, baseball is first. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind about that. Now, I counsel him to get his degree because baseball WILL end for every player. But at 19, he would major in baseball if that were an option. Without that single-minded focus, I'm not sure a player could make it to the highest level of any sport. In order to stay eligible to play, he has to do the academic part. That is what drives his education at this point. I am sure he will see things different in 5 years. In all honesty, I want him to think this way deep down. I do stress the importance of his education to him verbally, though. Just one dad's view.

CaGirl,

 

Sometimes it is not that cut & dried.

 

Sometimes the choices are University A, maybe 75th in nation-academically but something about baseball that just doesn't make student-athlete comfortable....high turnover of players, heard bad things about coach(es), hard on pitcher's arm, etc, etc.

 

Other choices might include 125th ranked school with fewer or none of the baseball issues.Maybe the student-athlete just likes the campus, people better in 2nd university.

 

IMO, there are valid reasons to choose a university other than University A.

 

I hope that makes sense.

My son is a 2018. he was at a D1 college prospect camp this past weekend. The HC asked him, "what do you want to major in when you get to college." My son, not normally a very witty kid responded with the most appropriate answer I've ever heard. "Coach, I'm 15. I'm not even sure what I want for lunch yet."

       
       
You know.though Caco even as an educator I have always believed that it doesn't much matter whose name is on the piece of paper.  Now if your lot in life is in the jet set then maybe it does.  But for us regular joes just looking to make a living I don't think anyone really much cares.  My daughter is flirting with being a teacher.  Although the landscape of education is changing I think its still a good profession.  But I advise her to go to the cheapest schools possible.  An english degree is an english degree.  So lets say my baseball playing son wants to be a science teacher and follow in my footsteps into coaching.  He gets lucky enough to get a roster spot from big university A.  Then he realizes quickly he is never going to see the field.  He was recruited by mid university B and had a good relationship with the coach and knows he can PLAY there.  What is the harm in him changing schools?  Even if the first school was more 'prestigious' who cares?  I went to a juco for all the hours I could then to a private 4 year to finish up.  The private 4 yr. Supposedly had a good academic reputation.  I didn't notice one bit of difference between them and the juco.  To me college (other than sports and other enjoyable activities) is just a business deal.  I give you way too much cash for what I get. In return and you give me a meaningless piece of paper that I simply have to possess in order to get a decent job.  Everything I ever learned about teaching I learned from student teaching and beyond.  I can honestly say my entire classload was a complete and utter waste of time and money.  Again I can not attest to other more lofty majors.  But for a lot of them its just a rubber stamp.  In fact baseball may be the most real and demanding thing a kid does throughout college! 

P.S.  I rarely studied and cut my share of classes and made it through with a B average.  College is a glorified high school.  Let's not make it out to be more than it is.

Refish I think you misunderstood.  The question was if Player A has a 4 year scholarship but was told by a new coach in year 2 that he would NEVER see the field again, should that player stay and finish his degree with his scholarship even though he wouldn't be playing baseball anymore, OR should that player leave University A and try for University B so he could still play baseball.

My son's baseball also motivates his academics.  I agree with others here in that unless you are talking about a Harvard type situation, having the degree is what matters.  I think the degree is something that is a pre-requisite to many jobs.  It is a pre-qualifier.  It allows employers to weed out a certain percentage of the population in their search for a candidate.  With the degree, you get a look.  Without the degree you don't get a chance to compete.  There may be people out there without a degree that are just as capable to do the job, but without the degree, they don't get that opportunity.  Doesn't matter so much where you got the degree from.

 

I think what some people don't realize is that playing baseball is an education in itself.  College athletes learn the concepts of time management, teamwork, commitment, hard work, overcoming adversity, learning to lose and keep your head high and I can go on and on and on.  AND I think employers realize this as well.  I think pretty much any employer who sees that a job applicant was a college athlete, will give that applicant an edge up.  Because they know what playing a college sport entails.  

 

So, I would not discount the opportunity to play college sports as just something a kid wants to do and nothing more.  It teaches a lot of lessons.  It helps build character.  And I think it will open a lot more doors to the players than if they were not college athletes as well as students.

       
       
I will make my second response much shorter and simpler than my first - PLAY BALL!!!

Not to mention the Alumni Network of some schools open up opportunities for said athletes.

Ca,

 

It might still the same. If your son/daughter hated the college he/she was at (forget baseball), it probably wouldn't be conducive to their learning to stay.  Now throw baseball in the mix. Coach says, "son, you aren't playing anymore but you will run every day, you will be in charge of dugout/locker room cleanup". That would be a very, very unpleasant experience for 3-4 more years. Yeah, I would probably encourage my son/daughter to leave that situation. And I might do even it if he/she was NOT even going to play baseball/softball at the second university.

 

 

I've had colleagues in my profession, in the last 12 months, tell me that they seek to hire college athletes for many of the reasons that you mentioned. Before my conversation with them, that had never crossed my mind.

Here's my take on the situation and why I opined that 4-year guaranteed scholarships might change things concerning early offers. What happens now is that a school offers a 9th grader (or even an 8th grader) with the notion that they are currently ahead of the curve and will improve over the next few years. Let's take a hypothetical. My son is a 2018 sitting 84-85 and can hit 87 occasionally. That's not really high D1 stuff right now, but well ahead of the curve compared to most who will eventually be top D1 pitchers. This kind of kid can get a high D1 offer based on speculation. Let's say a school like Vandy offers a 50% scholarship and he accepts. Now, two years later, he's still sitting 84-85 (or maybe an injury set him back some and he's not even that anymore). Coach, not wanting to pull scholarships and get a bad rep among recruits, tells him we're honoring the deal but you won't ever see the field and you won't get a second year on your scholarship. He's now DII/III material. He's likely to pull out and go somewhere else. However, if it's a FOUR year deal, he may very likely decide the educational opportunity and scholarship makes it worth going to Vandy anyway and giving up baseball. I don't see many kids who've slipped to the point that a coach takes this position going to the school any way for a one year scholarship, but I could see many choosing academics over lower college level ball for a FOUR year scholarship.

AND I think employers realize this as well.  I think pretty much any employer who sees that a job applicant was a college athlete, will give that applicant an edge up.  Because they know what playing a college sport entails

Just speaking as someone who has hired a lot of engineers - I don't think thats entirely accurate.  Maybe in some professions?  But surprisingly (or not), not necessarily true in mine.

 

Engineering research orgs are looking for high GPAs and research acumen.  'Ball player' on resume is seen as 'neato!' but not a whole lot more...by most hiring managers.

Speaking as someone who has hired a hundred or more people over the years it is often the intangibles that separate. I am not as worried about a GPA or what school a kid is from as I much as I try to project who is going to be a leader and has a vision.

 

I am partial to baseball players first, general athletes 2nd and life long boy scouts have a been solid as well - granted they tend to be a half beat off but very good workers! I have found the Arts and Music based backgrounds to be less successful but it may just be my business or the culture we have here!

 

for my blue collar jobs I love guys that played Varsity HS sports but didn't want to or aren't able go to college...they turn into awesome workers who can do very well for themselves.

CaCo,

You've certainly touched on an interesting aspect.

We are not talking about going to college vs not going to college.  We are talking about possibly going to a lesser academic college for the opportunity to play ball.  

In the recent past, you have actively defended the fact that your son plays so much travel ball at a young age because that is what he truly loves - what his true passion is.  I think you may very well find yourself faced with this very dilemma. 

 

My often-stated, somewhat tongue-in-cheek minimum requirement for each of our three kids as repayment for our providing for them over the years is... "Be a good person. Get a 4-year degree."  Each is either there or well on their way with both.  Each will get there via very different paths and driven by very different motivators.  The ballplayer does not have a particular passion for school.  Like your son, he does have a particular passion for baseball.  He is a college junior.  I can't begin to tell you how many times we have discussed career paths and explored ways to find that career passion for after baseball.  Well, as it turns out, baseball/sports IS the passion. 

 

Consider this from Younggun...

"But at 19, he would major in baseball if that were an option. Without that single-minded focus, I'm not sure a player could make it to the highest level of any sport. In order to stay eligible to play, he has to do the academic part. That is what drives his education at this point." 

 

I think this is the case for a large number of college athletes including mine.  Now that he starts to recognize that he is probably very near the end of the competitive playing aspect of the journey, the passion doesn't just disappear.  He has chosen a general major, both so he can continue playing and so that he leaves the option to pursue something related to the game (or sports) afterward.  He has taken very risky (probably ill-advised) direction with school choices in an effort to push and see what the highest level of ball is that he can reach.  We are both very aware and have discussed at length that academics should come first.  But, for him (and I think for so many college athletes), this path is what fulfills the dream and reasonably protects the future at the same time.  I've often thought of it as the "wrong way" or the "hard way" but for him, I think it is the "only way".  Like I said, don't be too surprised if your passionate player ends up in a similar scenario. 

old_school - I want to be clear.  I agree with your post 100%!!

 

I just think its important for others to read that at least in my profession, the commonly held thought that 'college athlete' will make a difference just doesn't turn out to be as true as you and I would hope to believe.

Roothog, I agree with your basic premise but I would imagine that there are vague loopholes in the 4 yr guarantees so that the coach could find some reason (valid in his mind) as to why the player did not fulfill his end of the bargain. The coach would not want the scholarship being used on a player that was not even playing. With there being only being 11.7 scholarships, each is precious.

There are very few kids that would choose to stay once the coach tells them they're not wanted.  Even with a four year scholarship, there would be better opportunities elsewhere.

 

Would you want your son to spend his time in college doing all the dirty work behind the scenes... All the while being looked at as a drain on the baseball program and those 11.7 scholarships? Who would want their son to spend four years at a place where they are not wanted? 

 

College is what you make of it.  I assure you for students who take it seriously -- which you seem not to have done -- it can be a transformative experience -- deeply so.   A first rate university like Stanford offers way, way, more than even the best high school.  You are studying at the frontiers of knowledge with some of the smartest people in the world, in classrooms filled with other amazing students.   High school can't touch it.  But you got look at it as more than just a business deal.  you gotta look at it as more than just professional training.  And you gotta apply yourself. 

I'm definitely an education first parent. But there are alternative colleges to get the same quality degree. Plus going in most major college players believe they are locks as pro prospects.

Cabbagedad, I totally understand everything you have said, and agree with it, but that wasn't the scenario at question.

 

The scenario was the player has 4 year scholarship and there was a coaching change during the second year and the new coach tells player you won't see a day on my field.  The player is not considered a high draft pick, what does the player do? Stay the other 2 years on his scholarship, although he can no longer play baseball for his school....OR....go to another school, be on the bench for his mandatory year waiting period and get to play during his fourth year of college.

 

For me, providing it wasn't some insane situation where my son was being treated like a servant boy by the coach, I would hope he would choose to get his degree at a discounted price rather than changing schools to play one more year of baseball.

 

As of right now my son plays a lot of baseball 4 months a year, he would play 12 if he could.  He also wants to do something in the baseball world but he has also seen his father, who doesn't have a college degree, break his body in the construction world to earn half as much as my college degree allows me.  Baseball is a vital part of my son's life, and I know it will be a part of him in some way for a long time, I would just hope his degree was a higher priority than one more year of playing in college, and I am surprised more parents aren't agreeing that that would be their advice too.

 

 

 

 

But if they had the High GPA and the Research Acumen and did it while playing ball -- I bet that would make you stand up and taken notice.  Cause that would show smarts plus discipline galore.

 

But yeah without the grades and the research ball player alone won't add much I bet.

 

^^^^

Yes indeed SluggerDad. 

Ca,

 

Education is important. My wife and I are both college graduates. My daughter is in her 5th year at a major D1 getting her Masters in Accounting. Education is important to my son also.  But baseball is too. It is just a matter of walking through the maze of trying to maximize both but not too much to the detriment of either.

 

Three years ago, maybe even 2 yrs ago, I wasn't completely sure that baseball would be in the equation for my son. It is, so he just had to make the best choice (with some guidance) that he could based upon the facts as he knew them last summer.

I have no doubt that there are some people and some professions where being a college athlete would not have a lot of impact.  I would also think that for many people and many professions, it would be a plus.  I would also wonder if in a field such as engineering, with all else being equal between two candidates, would one being a college athlete and the other not have any bearing at all?

CaCO, I'm not saying I disagree with your position.  All I am saying is that my son is at this crossroad in his life journey.  Education is extremely important to me, as I have a doctorate.  All of my kids have heard the value of an education their entire life.  My point is that your child will be a young man at that point in his life and decisions start to become his and less yours.  I know this is hard to fathom at your son's age.  One of the most difficult things I have encountered as a parent is realizing that my wants and desires do not always match theirs, and they will always have the last word when it comes to their life.  I can only speak for my son, but he has made it very clear that he will chase the baseball dream as far as it will take him, and then he plans to continue in baseball in some capacity after his playing days are over.  Again, he is 19 and I realize his mind will most likely change several times before 25.

Another point, or question.  Say an athlete did get a 4 year guarantee on his scholarship.  Coach tells him he won't see the field.  I am assuming that student would NOT have the option of just going to school and not be on the baseball team.  That student would have to go to practices every day.  They would have to sit with the baseball team for all those hours every week KNOWING that they would never play and the only reason they were there is to have the scholarship money.  More than likely, the team would go off to away games and that kid, even as a senior, would probably be sitting in his dorm room while all his teammates are out of town playing baseball.  If that student did not want to do that and only go to school, I am sure there are stipulations in the offer in which the scholarship could be rescinded. Such as not showing up to practices and fulfilling his responsibilities as a member of the team. 

 

So, that kid could not be ONLY a student AND keep the baseball scholarship.  That could be a humiliating experience.

I would also wonder if in a field such as engineering, with all else being equal between two candidates, would one being a college athlete and the other not have any bearing at all?

Maybe?  But I would say I'm not sure I've ever seen the 'all else being equal' case.  There's always a reason someone takes the lead in an interview process and its usually 'the interview' itself or references or summer internship experiences (which baseball players won't have).  The non-athlete would have that (some experience) and that could re-equalize or even overcome the athlete on that dimension.
Again, I have seen what it takes firsthand through 2 sons - so I am not a supporter of that point of view, but I have in fact seen the athlete vs. non-athlete scenario play out in my profession and in the end, the 'athlete' part didn't make much of a difference.  It just didn't.

I agree 100%

 

I don’t think we’ve had a chance to fully understand the ramifications of the “Four Year Guaranteed Scholarships with stipend” at the Power 5 programs yet.  One would think that it would require programs to think long and hard about extending offers (although that still doesn’t seem to be the case with the amount of recent early offers).  I’m thinking more about the kid who is recruited, offered and accepts a significant baseball scholarship at a Power 5 school.

 

I know the prevailing sentiment here has always been that regardless of the wording, scholarships are all year to year, and if a coach doesn’t want you, he’ll find a way to get rid of you.  However, I could see that changing with the advent of the 4 year scholarship.   The landscape will be full of players that in previous years would be encouraged to seek other opportunities after their freshman or sophomore years.  Understanding that for some that are baseball first, that will still be the preferred option, but I have to imagine as Roothog pointed out, that there will be a significant amount of kids (and their parents) that would be unwilling (or financially unable) to walk away from 2-3 additional years of a guaranteed scholarship to go the transfer route.   I’m not talking about a malcontent kid complaining about playing time or having off the field issues, I’m talking about a kid who is a solid D1 player, performing in the classroom and genuinely likes the school that he is attending.  It will be interesting to see the tact that Head Coaches employ going forward.  Not sure of the answers, but I predict there will be a few well publicized instances of players being “strongly encouraged” by coaches to walk away from their “guaranteed” scholarships.

There is no way I would advise my son to stay at a school where he is unwanted by the new staff...EVER!  If he still wanted to play baseball, and said school was a D-1, I would tell him to go DII or DIII.  He could still get a quality education and play.  Win/Win. 

 

I think it would depend entirely on the hiring manager.  Some probably couldn't care less, and some would think it is great. 

This has been difficult for me at times.  It's their life, their dream, and they can/will make that abundantly clear at times.  You can offer your advice, and give them direction, but ultimately, they will make their own decisions.  Just give them love and support, and it will work out.

 

First, at this point 4 year baseball scholarships are more rare than a 95 mph FB.

 

But remember, your son still has to show up to every practice and do all team activities to keep that scholarship. If a kid is faced with the decision to give up his scholarship or stay with a team where he isn't wanted, the money and credits are only part of the decision making.

 

Many people will tell you that their college years were some of the best of their lives. For athletes, being part of the team is a huge part of that. I wouldn't push my son to stay for the scholarship if the team experience wasn't good.

And everyone remember (I'm sure most are completely aware), this baseball scholarship money is not a full ride.  It's not like it's a full ride like football and basketball.  It may only be 25%.  Which can be significant to some, but is it worth it for your kid to go through a miserable experience for that kind of money?  I don't know.

 

Even for the kids who don't have a chance to move on in baseball beyond college, baseball is these kid's life.  It's all most of them have known.  They want that experience to last as long as it can, even if it does end after college.  Most feel that their life would not be the same without baseball.  They couldn't even imagine what it would be like to not go to the field almost every day.  To hang out with teammates.  To have "brothers" that are their best friends.  It is more than just something they do.  For most of these guys, it really is who they are.  At least in their minds.  I guarantee that for most of these college baseball players, if you asked them to define themselves, the first thing that would come to their mind would be "I'm a baseball player".  To give that up before the time comes, would be virtually unthinkable.

 

We know as parents that life goes on after baseball.  But for these kids who have been playing since they were 5, 6, 7, 8 years old, it's all they know.  And I guarantee that most of us could tell stories of seeing our kids doing things that told us they would be a baseball player long before they started playing organized ball as well.  It's in their blood.  Most will not give up until they are forced to.

Roothog66...4 year deals are only committed too at the time of signing. So, whether it was offered at the verbal, it only becomes reality in November of senior year. If a player throws 84 and never improves, its likely that Vandy would not offer a 4 year guarantee.

 

Now, here is my two cents having personal experience. PO jr signed a DI NLI with a 4 year guarantee. Received a academic scholarship as well from the business school, mantained a 3.0 GPA to be eligible for both. Freshman year baseball went well by most standards 3-1. Sophomore year was told he would be a redshirt because 2 LHP transfers & 2 LHP incoming. During his sophomore year he worked hard, but was limited to ball boy, primary shagger, weekend bagel pick boy and first class radar gun operator with high level charting skills. In hindsight, this was all done in an effort to beat him down so he would quit & they would get his scholarship back. That did not work, so in late April he was told he was no longer in their future plans. They would honor his scholarship, but he would only see the field in the capacity of aforementioned duties. Or, they would help him transfer, give him a release and go on his merry way.

His release stated, he could not transfer in conference. NCAA rules would still require one year of sitting out. JC was not an option as he would be a junior academically with 3 years eligibility. 

All said and done, it cost our family money walking away from about 55% scholarship. But who wants to stay where you are no longer wanted. 

The 4 year guarantee came up many times early on many times on this site. It seems like a great deal until you realize that a bat boy scholarship only goes so far.

PO jr is now enrolled in a good business school, with a smaller athlelic scholarship to play on a DII baseball team that is rebuilding.

If there is a moral to the story I'll let you know once I figure it out.

Bottom line, play ball as long as you can without forgetting that your education is important. 

Stay eligible first to play baseball second.

While I agree with most of your post there is more to college than what is found in the books.  I was a similar student and feel that many of my skills increased significantly in college.  The ability to jump through the hoops and nock down the roadblocks to earn that piece of paper taught me a lot more than I realized when I walked off the campus with a degree.

Don't discard the students that actually do more than the minimum required and really take advantage of all the resources a college has to offer.  They will get significantly more from college than students like us. 

 

Plus the benefits of a fully committed college student coming out of an Ivy league school is ten fold to your local run of the mill state college.  The contacts from the alumni alone increase ones earning power significantly. 

Good discussion, here is my perspective as a parent of a 4 year college player now with an engineering degree in grad school who does not miss it one bit. (more on this later)

 

College baseball is hard and not everyone is cut out for it. Many think they are, but once they get into the grind, they drop out. (see below) Parents should expect this just by looking at the statistics. (I know I did not until I saw it)

 

Baseball ends for everybody at some point. Very few are able to play in college, and significantly fewer stick it out for 4 years. (like 75% of those who start drop before they are Sr's.))  

 

Do not underestimate injuries, there are lots of them and many lose part or all of a season. (mine did)

 

You can be a STEM major and get good grades, but not likely at a D1, in fact you can probably not do STEM at most D1 programs. ( I classify Ivy and Patriot more high end D3ish in this regard)  It takes even more discipline to pull STEM off but  it can be done.

 

For us we did not compromise on education vs baseball. (well maybe just a little, but really just picked another option that was attractive for a whole bunch of other reasons it was part of our selection process) (the numbers on transfers from one program to another are very high something like 50%)

 

You DON'T have to play summer ball and can do research and still play at a high level. For STEM majors I would suggest this as it sets you up for life beyond baseball. Mine played one season of official college summer league and two of modified. (1-2 days be week) Mine worked one summer and did University research one summer, which lead to his acceptance into a fully funded graduate program. 

 

My son likely could have played beyond college as an un-drafted signee, but purposely let organisations know he was done. He has many friends playing in the MiLB and he has told me that he does not know how they do it, it is even HARDER than college ball in his opinion.

 

My son does not miss it and is experiencing the many other things in life that he missed out on doing baseball for so many years. Fishing, hunting, going kayaking, wake boarding, tennis, playing his guitar, going to a a pub with buddies, playing basketball, etc, etc, 

 

With all of this he probably would not have chosen to not play ball in college as it was an unbelievable experience, and a unique one that few get to participate in. (I am actually going to see him tomorrow night so I will ask him the question....when we are out at a pub enjoying the local nightlife. 

 

Finally it has to be your son's dream not yours, sometimes us parents start to make it ours (I know I did at one point in time and had to step back and let him take the lead)

 

 Best of luck to all of the Freshmen starting up in their college experience and good luck to those still hunting for a place to play.