It can be a business and a tough one

Was this, by any chance, aligned with a recent coaching change?  I saw a similar process take place at a school I follow a year ago one year after a coaching change.

 

Jury is still out as to whether or not that one will work out.

 

But yeah, this type of thing happens.  Not just in baseball, but in college sports in general.  Coach's job is on the line, don't get trapped thinking the coach will do what you consider the 'proper thing,' honoring all scholarships for all 3-4 years with his livelihood on the line.

Sure is.  A 2nd year Head Coach and his first recruiting class.

Seems more and more on the HSBBW I read about committing and  "guaranteed roster spots," even at the D3 level.

I am probably not only an "old timer" but perhaps a bit of a  curmudgeon too. The "high" of "committing" and "roster spot assurances"are, for many, fleeting. While I think changes such as an entire roster are a bit harsh, I also think they  bring home a reality of baseball  beyond HS.

Maybe things will be better now that the coaches CAN offer 4 year scholarships?  Even with a coaching change those would be honored right?

There are always ways...for them to get you out of there.

 

Would you (or your son) stay if coach told you (or your son), 'yeah, you've got your scholarship for 4 years for sure, but if you stay you will never see the field again.'

 

Those conversations do and will continue to happen for as long as coaches get a paycheck...and maybe longer.

Ouch!  I guess that would depend on the players aspirations.

I think the concept of 4 year guaranteed scholarships in baseball are a pipe dream of parents......

 

infieldad, I believe a few years ago the new UNLV coach pulled off the same feat. 

One might argue exactly the opposite.  If each portion of 11.7 is "guaranteed" for 4 years along with the stipend cost, the budget of that school for baseball goes up.

As the article linked here a few days back indicated, those costs as the total cost of attendance go up considerably as fixed costs for football and basketball.

Unless football and basketball continue to grow revenues to more than cover the increasing costs for the total cost of attendance guaranteed for 4 years, non-revenue sports, such as baseball, are at risk.

Looked at in the present, as justbaseball noted, if a college coaches livelihood for his family depends on his salary and pleasing his AD, usually by winning, and a player who is not performing, or worse is a problem, is using part of that 11.7, that college coach is going to want that portion of that 11.7 to use.

Heck, ASU fired their head coach because he only reached a regional and the AD made clear that was not good enough. Pretty much the same at Clemson.

For those on the way up looking for "guarantees" beyond HS, they are few, far between and too often fleeting.

 

I've seen second year coaches bring in recruiting classes in the mid-20's before, but your 35 new players beats that.

 

When a new coach is brought in to turn a program around, the former coach's recruits need to start looking at their other options--even if they are better players than the new coach's recruits.  

 

The new coach will not want any ambiguity as to who deserves credit for the team's success, so he has little incentive to make his predecessor's recruits successful.

I get the point, but I do think this will slow up the trend towards offering 8th and 9th grade players. Once you're looking at a four year scholly, you have entered territory where a kid might actually be willing to come to school anyway. Especially if he has really fallen in stock to the point where a coach makes that kind of threat.

I can certainly understand your perspective.  On the other hand, I think it could also be argued such offers could increase in numbers and then, for some,  the offer won't be there in 4-5 years, before the NLI is signed and anything is guaranteed for 4 years, as the coaches (who may not be the same)  see how that player has matured and progressed. Unless and until the NCAA steps in, which seems doubtful, guarantees, 11.7, winning, and being a non-revenue sport or at least partially dependent on football/basketball make the friction more rather than less likely, in my view. It is just a question of where the friction forces the coach to make decisions.

I can see the entire landscape starting to change to something that resembles football and basketball where, unlike baseball currently, the term "commitment" is a relatively loose term which no one seems to honor.

At my son's school, as best that I can tell, there were approx 29 underclassmen for 2015 season. New recruits total 22.  Total of 51 to start for 2016 season. 5, I know, have left the program before Fall semester. That still leaves 46 fighting for 35 or so spots. (actually 36 on 2015 roster) 

 

Fans & athletic directors want wins; parents want commitment!

I hope the new coach allows the young men he released to transfer to a new school without sitting out a year.

Not to a D1 to D1.  

I am wondering, are these western schools, ummm Pac 12?  And more than likely walk ons? They cant all be NLI players.

Just for some clarity, coaches do this for practice, to make those that are there work a little harder with many walk ons fighting for a spot. In that respect, its a good thing.  

 

New coach doesn't have that power in baseball.  If they were recruited, they have to sit a year at their new D1--even if they got cut from the first school's team.

What good is a scholarship without a roster spot? Chances are the player will transfer.

I believe that rule should be changed.  If they don't want you, you should be allowed to go ANYWHERE.

It WAS changed - to be this way (the way it is now), about 5 years ago.  However, the Pac12 has proposed reversing it again, for in-conference schools.

A few years ago I was watching a game at Northeastern. I was talking with a scout. He showed me the opposing team's roster and asked if I saw anything odd. Right away I noticed 22 freshmen. Then he added there were also ten transfers (before the rule change) and JuCo players. A new coach came in. He told all the returning players they could stay if they wanted to attempt to make the team like a walk on. Imagine being a two year starter told to get lost for your senior year.

So do I. Maybe they're worried about players deliberately messing up or goofing up in order to get their walking papers. 

There are reasons why one cannot play right away. Think of it like the minor leaguer who is indentured for 6-7 years. No one wants a program that is like a revolving door.  You dont build a winning program like that. Same rule apply to other sports.

 

Now that i know the program, I am not surprised. I dont think i would send my son there for free.

 

But let this be an example that college baseball is very close to any job. If you dont contribute positively,  you are replaced. So make sure you have done your homework and you are confidant that YOU made the right choice, not just because this is your dream school. 

 

BTW, there are many programs that do things the right way. Thats because they have taken their time ro recruit carefully, not just invited the entire graduating class to come try out.

JMO

If I were a coach I wouldnt offer anyone a 4 year deal unless I wanted to keep him out of the draft. I want the freedom to make changes if the player doesnt perform. I need to keep my job!!!!

 

 

I discussed this one night with very good and respected D1 coach.

The previous system was great for the players since they could almost be free agents. Unfortunately, a small population of college coaches used and probably "abused" the system of "free agency" to recruit successful college players away from their teams. The Summer Wood bat leagues were the vehicle for many of those.

So, the NCAA changed the rules. Now a small percentage of college coaches use, and probably abuse, the one year sit rule, by bringing in 35 new recruits and by yanking schollies for some juniors and especially for some seniors.  Those playing on the edge with the current rules probably overlap with those who played on the edge with the prior transfer rules.

The majority don't play on the edge. What is important to know is some do and the consequences are off-putting but condoned by the NCAA.

I think you have pinned down the reason...

       
       

Whoops, there I go thinking about eduction first and baseball second.  I must be having one of my silly days, carry on :-)

Dont forget another reason was because bb players were not keeping up with credit requirements and after 4 years were way behind in graduating. Plus, credits were lost in the transfer.  That was a poor refection in the APR as well as the athletic program. 

Bottom line was baseball players were not graduating.  

but...but....what about education first and baseball second??? 

  !!!!!!!!!

There's a great deal of insight in this thread. 

 

Despite being an inveterate optimist, I've struggled the past year or so with a growing sense of unease about where all of this is heading; and, a couple of times, I've started to sit down and try to put together a post expressing my growing concern. However, I simply didn't feel that I was far enough along in considering the disparate elements to do so.

 

I'm still a little ways off from that; but, some of the observations here are so close to all of this for me that I had to write something.

 

When you roll together (1) the growing revenue dilemma for college athletics from a dwindling number of cable subscribers, (2) earlier and earlier offers and commitments in baseball, (3) 4-year guaranteed scholarships, and (4) increasing pressure for wins from AD's, it makes you wonder how DI college baseball is going to be able to continue as the thriving sport we've known for awhile now.

 

I won't pretend to have a crystal ball that's any clearer than the next person's, but it's increasingly difficult to predict continued health for the sport unless some fairly significant changes are made. Without them, the dynamics alluded to above seem to be on a collision course with one another. Let's hope that the wreck can be avoided. 

       
       
You raise some really valid concerns.  Add to that the mlb fans keep getting older on average and kids overall are just not as much into sports as they used to be...  but on the other hand universities everywhere keep building multi million dollar beautiful baseball facilities.  Will be interesting to see which trend wins out.

Whoops, there I go thinking about eduction first and baseball second.  I must be having one of my silly days, carry on :-)

The reality is, a very large percentage of players and their families value the baseball more in the short term than the school or academics.  While you may be able to fend that off - don't fool yourself too much unless you've faced those choices yourself.  Things can become different when they become reality.

 

I saw players leave Stanford for far lesser schools both academically and athletically so they could play.  No, in those cases I don't think they were forced out, but the reality of being #3 (or even #2) on the depth chart at their position was too much and they gave up one of the best educations available for the chance to play (more) baseball.

 

I have also seen many a parent come to this site, ready to find any school they can so that their sons can continue their baseball playing career.  Even in the face of a complete mismatch academically.  I'm not judging them, just stating what I see as the reality

 

Our sons never faced this decision, but if they had I wanna think we (parents) would have insisted they  stay where they were...for the education.  They were both at great schools.  But I cannot guarantee it wouldn't have been one heck of a debate on the subject.  And coaches know this dirty little secret I am stating...and will use it to get players out.

 

Yes, it does happen.

 

Bottom line, when push comes to shove on playing time, the player (and often the parents) seem to pick playing baseball over picking/sticking with the best school.

Consider that the schools that have agreed to the guarantee and cost of attendance stipends are the power 5 and they've already found a (relatively) new revenue source that is more than covering the increased cost.  The conference television contracts are bringing in millions for these schools.  On a campus tour at one of these schools, the coach was giddy sharing all the new resources that athletic department is receiving from the TV revenue they're now receiving.

 

In these conferences, I don't believe baseball is or will be at risk.  As you further alluded, the jobs of those who are to get results in those sports (coaches) will always be at risk if they don't perform, but that's nothing new.

Great post jbb.  I agree and have seen it many times with players my sons have played with.  Many of these kids are very good players, but realistically don't have much shot at playing at the professional level, or likely not at a high professional level.  The kids end up at schools that are often below their academic profile just so they can play, or play at a "name" school.  It makes little sense to me.  They are likely going to be done playing organized baseball in less than 5 years - shouldn't they attend the right academic school?  To use your example - if you're down the depth chart at Stanford - what is the realistic chance you are a legit pro prospect?  I'd say it's pretty small.  Yet kids leave Stanford just to get a chance to play.  I'd have a hard time with my son leaving the educational opportunity at Stanford to get a few more innings somewhere else.

I just don't get that.  While it would be nice for my son to play baseball in college, since he loves the game, I just don't see the logic in giving up a decent scholarship to attempt to go to another school where it is likely he will loose at least 25% of his earned credits, just to play baseball. 

 

I understand what kind of site I am on here, I understand everyone on here has a child who LOVES baseball.  But, surely there are other ways to get a baseball fix while in college.  I would hope if given the situation ALL parents would council their children to stay and get their education at a discounted price.  The only exception I can think of is if the player was top round material in the draft, but that's about as rare as throwing 95+mph.

if you are leaving Stanford, or Duke or something along those lines you might be making a mistake. From a bigger picture if you are leaving a "solid" type school and transferring to a similar type of school where you can play what are you losing?

 

Generally speaking I don't believe enough conversation is being had about what you want to major in, what is the earning potential of that major and how does the school you are looking at help. An education major is probably spending a tremendous amount more money at some private then they would at some state school, if you want to trade bonds Princeton may be worth every dime but maybe not to another major...at the end of it damn few players from even the most elite are going to make living playing ball so...you had better consider it. It is just another reason IMO that Freshman and Soph commits are wrong.

 

One other comment is money is not the same to everyone, 50k a year might be hardship for some and not even noticed by others. I think people tend to view others moves based on their own perspective and can be misleading.

Exactly... 

 

You ever have a passion before...? Some people do... It's what THEY deeply desire to do... You should never deny that.

 

Good luck.

If the choice for my child was to get a decent education that would secure his future or have the possibility to play baseball for a couple more years, assuming he had no real shot at going high in the draft, I would very much counsel him to deny it.

 

Even though this is a baseball site isn't that what some of the older members have counseled?  Education should be considered first, baseball second.

You have a crystal-ball...?

 

A good education is wonderful, but I could NEVER extinguish someone's passion in the process... Players have a limited window to play, and besides, you can always get a 'decent education' until the day you die... 

 

Again, good luck...

If the choice for my child was to get a decent education that would secure his future or have the possibility to play baseball for a couple more years, assuming he had no real shot at going high in the draft, I would very much counsel him to deny it.

 

Even though this is a baseball site isn't that what some of the older members have counseled?  Education should be considered first, baseball second.

Of course!!

 

But what we are trying to convey to you is that it doesn't always work the way you think it will.  And don't be so certain you will feel the same way if/when this scenario stares your son (and you too!!) in the face.

 

There are many...many things in my life that seemed so clear...until they were there right in front of me.  I have seen enough firsthand to know that baseball will be chosen far more often than I would have thought.  While I do think it is wise to establish your goals and guidelines upfront (it creates a self-made hurdle you would have to clear if the decision comes), I do not feel 100% confident that I would have acted any different had I/we been forced into that position.

 As it has been stated many times on this site baseball ends for everyone at some point.  If it was clear it was ending for my son in 2 years I would beg him to stay and get his degree and join a local rec league to get his baseball fix.

 

Players do have a limited window to play, but I would argue there is a limited window for education as well, life gets in the way.  With a 4 year college degree he would be qualified for more than working at McDonald's or breaking his back to earn a living.

 

We will have to agree to disagree on this one.Good luck to you and your son, I hope you are never faced with this choice.

 

There have been a lot of good ideas shared here. My son is a freshman this year. Things are always fluid, but at this point in his life, baseball is first. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind about that. Now, I counsel him to get his degree because baseball WILL end for every player. But at 19, he would major in baseball if that were an option. Without that single-minded focus, I'm not sure a player could make it to the highest level of any sport. In order to stay eligible to play, he has to do the academic part. That is what drives his education at this point. I am sure he will see things different in 5 years. In all honesty, I want him to think this way deep down. I do stress the importance of his education to him verbally, though. Just one dad's view.

CaGirl,

 

Sometimes it is not that cut & dried.

 

Sometimes the choices are University A, maybe 75th in nation-academically but something about baseball that just doesn't make student-athlete comfortable....high turnover of players, heard bad things about coach(es), hard on pitcher's arm, etc, etc.

 

Other choices might include 125th ranked school with fewer or none of the baseball issues.Maybe the student-athlete just likes the campus, people better in 2nd university.

 

IMO, there are valid reasons to choose a university other than University A.

 

I hope that makes sense.

My son is a 2018. he was at a D1 college prospect camp this past weekend. The HC asked him, "what do you want to major in when you get to college." My son, not normally a very witty kid responded with the most appropriate answer I've ever heard. "Coach, I'm 15. I'm not even sure what I want for lunch yet."

       
       
You know.though Caco even as an educator I have always believed that it doesn't much matter whose name is on the piece of paper.  Now if your lot in life is in the jet set then maybe it does.  But for us regular joes just looking to make a living I don't think anyone really much cares.  My daughter is flirting with being a teacher.  Although the landscape of education is changing I think its still a good profession.  But I advise her to go to the cheapest schools possible.  An english degree is an english degree.  So lets say my baseball playing son wants to be a science teacher and follow in my footsteps into coaching.  He gets lucky enough to get a roster spot from big university A.  Then he realizes quickly he is never going to see the field.  He was recruited by mid university B and had a good relationship with the coach and knows he can PLAY there.  What is the harm in him changing schools?  Even if the first school was more 'prestigious' who cares?  I went to a juco for all the hours I could then to a private 4 year to finish up.  The private 4 yr. Supposedly had a good academic reputation.  I didn't notice one bit of difference between them and the juco.  To me college (other than sports and other enjoyable activities) is just a business deal.  I give you way too much cash for what I get. In return and you give me a meaningless piece of paper that I simply have to possess in order to get a decent job.  Everything I ever learned about teaching I learned from student teaching and beyond.  I can honestly say my entire classload was a complete and utter waste of time and money.  Again I can not attest to other more lofty majors.  But for a lot of them its just a rubber stamp.  In fact baseball may be the most real and demanding thing a kid does throughout college! 

P.S.  I rarely studied and cut my share of classes and made it through with a B average.  College is a glorified high school.  Let's not make it out to be more than it is.

Refish I think you misunderstood.  The question was if Player A has a 4 year scholarship but was told by a new coach in year 2 that he would NEVER see the field again, should that player stay and finish his degree with his scholarship even though he wouldn't be playing baseball anymore, OR should that player leave University A and try for University B so he could still play baseball.

My son's baseball also motivates his academics.  I agree with others here in that unless you are talking about a Harvard type situation, having the degree is what matters.  I think the degree is something that is a pre-requisite to many jobs.  It is a pre-qualifier.  It allows employers to weed out a certain percentage of the population in their search for a candidate.  With the degree, you get a look.  Without the degree you don't get a chance to compete.  There may be people out there without a degree that are just as capable to do the job, but without the degree, they don't get that opportunity.  Doesn't matter so much where you got the degree from.

 

I think what some people don't realize is that playing baseball is an education in itself.  College athletes learn the concepts of time management, teamwork, commitment, hard work, overcoming adversity, learning to lose and keep your head high and I can go on and on and on.  AND I think employers realize this as well.  I think pretty much any employer who sees that a job applicant was a college athlete, will give that applicant an edge up.  Because they know what playing a college sport entails.  

 

So, I would not discount the opportunity to play college sports as just something a kid wants to do and nothing more.  It teaches a lot of lessons.  It helps build character.  And I think it will open a lot more doors to the players than if they were not college athletes as well as students.

       
       
I will make my second response much shorter and simpler than my first - PLAY BALL!!!

Not to mention the Alumni Network of some schools open up opportunities for said athletes.

Ca,

 

It might still the same. If your son/daughter hated the college he/she was at (forget baseball), it probably wouldn't be conducive to their learning to stay.  Now throw baseball in the mix. Coach says, "son, you aren't playing anymore but you will run every day, you will be in charge of dugout/locker room cleanup". That would be a very, very unpleasant experience for 3-4 more years. Yeah, I would probably encourage my son/daughter to leave that situation. And I might do even it if he/she was NOT even going to play baseball/softball at the second university.

 

 

I've had colleagues in my profession, in the last 12 months, tell me that they seek to hire college athletes for many of the reasons that you mentioned. Before my conversation with them, that had never crossed my mind.

Here's my take on the situation and why I opined that 4-year guaranteed scholarships might change things concerning early offers. What happens now is that a school offers a 9th grader (or even an 8th grader) with the notion that they are currently ahead of the curve and will improve over the next few years. Let's take a hypothetical. My son is a 2018 sitting 84-85 and can hit 87 occasionally. That's not really high D1 stuff right now, but well ahead of the curve compared to most who will eventually be top D1 pitchers. This kind of kid can get a high D1 offer based on speculation. Let's say a school like Vandy offers a 50% scholarship and he accepts. Now, two years later, he's still sitting 84-85 (or maybe an injury set him back some and he's not even that anymore). Coach, not wanting to pull scholarships and get a bad rep among recruits, tells him we're honoring the deal but you won't ever see the field and you won't get a second year on your scholarship. He's now DII/III material. He's likely to pull out and go somewhere else. However, if it's a FOUR year deal, he may very likely decide the educational opportunity and scholarship makes it worth going to Vandy anyway and giving up baseball. I don't see many kids who've slipped to the point that a coach takes this position going to the school any way for a one year scholarship, but I could see many choosing academics over lower college level ball for a FOUR year scholarship.

AND I think employers realize this as well.  I think pretty much any employer who sees that a job applicant was a college athlete, will give that applicant an edge up.  Because they know what playing a college sport entails

Just speaking as someone who has hired a lot of engineers - I don't think thats entirely accurate.  Maybe in some professions?  But surprisingly (or not), not necessarily true in mine.

 

Engineering research orgs are looking for high GPAs and research acumen.  'Ball player' on resume is seen as 'neato!' but not a whole lot more...by most hiring managers.

Speaking as someone who has hired a hundred or more people over the years it is often the intangibles that separate. I am not as worried about a GPA or what school a kid is from as I much as I try to project who is going to be a leader and has a vision.

 

I am partial to baseball players first, general athletes 2nd and life long boy scouts have a been solid as well - granted they tend to be a half beat off but very good workers! I have found the Arts and Music based backgrounds to be less successful but it may just be my business or the culture we have here!

 

for my blue collar jobs I love guys that played Varsity HS sports but didn't want to or aren't able go to college...they turn into awesome workers who can do very well for themselves.

CaCo,

You've certainly touched on an interesting aspect.

We are not talking about going to college vs not going to college.  We are talking about possibly going to a lesser academic college for the opportunity to play ball.  

In the recent past, you have actively defended the fact that your son plays so much travel ball at a young age because that is what he truly loves - what his true passion is.  I think you may very well find yourself faced with this very dilemma. 

 

My often-stated, somewhat tongue-in-cheek minimum requirement for each of our three kids as repayment for our providing for them over the years is... "Be a good person. Get a 4-year degree."  Each is either there or well on their way with both.  Each will get there via very different paths and driven by very different motivators.  The ballplayer does not have a particular passion for school.  Like your son, he does have a particular passion for baseball.  He is a college junior.  I can't begin to tell you how many times we have discussed career paths and explored ways to find that career passion for after baseball.  Well, as it turns out, baseball/sports IS the passion. 

 

Consider this from Younggun...

"But at 19, he would major in baseball if that were an option. Without that single-minded focus, I'm not sure a player could make it to the highest level of any sport. In order to stay eligible to play, he has to do the academic part. That is what drives his education at this point." 

 

I think this is the case for a large number of college athletes including mine.  Now that he starts to recognize that he is probably very near the end of the competitive playing aspect of the journey, the passion doesn't just disappear.  He has chosen a general major, both so he can continue playing and so that he leaves the option to pursue something related to the game (or sports) afterward.  He has taken very risky (probably ill-advised) direction with school choices in an effort to push and see what the highest level of ball is that he can reach.  We are both very aware and have discussed at length that academics should come first.  But, for him (and I think for so many college athletes), this path is what fulfills the dream and reasonably protects the future at the same time.  I've often thought of it as the "wrong way" or the "hard way" but for him, I think it is the "only way".  Like I said, don't be too surprised if your passionate player ends up in a similar scenario. 

old_school - I want to be clear.  I agree with your post 100%!!

 

I just think its important for others to read that at least in my profession, the commonly held thought that 'college athlete' will make a difference just doesn't turn out to be as true as you and I would hope to believe.

Roothog, I agree with your basic premise but I would imagine that there are vague loopholes in the 4 yr guarantees so that the coach could find some reason (valid in his mind) as to why the player did not fulfill his end of the bargain. The coach would not want the scholarship being used on a player that was not even playing. With there being only being 11.7 scholarships, each is precious.

There are very few kids that would choose to stay once the coach tells them they're not wanted.  Even with a four year scholarship, there would be better opportunities elsewhere.

 

Would you want your son to spend his time in college doing all the dirty work behind the scenes... All the while being looked at as a drain on the baseball program and those 11.7 scholarships? Who would want their son to spend four years at a place where they are not wanted? 

 

College is what you make of it.  I assure you for students who take it seriously -- which you seem not to have done -- it can be a transformative experience -- deeply so.   A first rate university like Stanford offers way, way, more than even the best high school.  You are studying at the frontiers of knowledge with some of the smartest people in the world, in classrooms filled with other amazing students.   High school can't touch it.  But you got look at it as more than just a business deal.  you gotta look at it as more than just professional training.  And you gotta apply yourself. 

I'm definitely an education first parent. But there are alternative colleges to get the same quality degree. Plus going in most major college players believe they are locks as pro prospects.

Cabbagedad, I totally understand everything you have said, and agree with it, but that wasn't the scenario at question.

 

The scenario was the player has 4 year scholarship and there was a coaching change during the second year and the new coach tells player you won't see a day on my field.  The player is not considered a high draft pick, what does the player do? Stay the other 2 years on his scholarship, although he can no longer play baseball for his school....OR....go to another school, be on the bench for his mandatory year waiting period and get to play during his fourth year of college.

 

For me, providing it wasn't some insane situation where my son was being treated like a servant boy by the coach, I would hope he would choose to get his degree at a discounted price rather than changing schools to play one more year of baseball.

 

As of right now my son plays a lot of baseball 4 months a year, he would play 12 if he could.  He also wants to do something in the baseball world but he has also seen his father, who doesn't have a college degree, break his body in the construction world to earn half as much as my college degree allows me.  Baseball is a vital part of my son's life, and I know it will be a part of him in some way for a long time, I would just hope his degree was a higher priority than one more year of playing in college, and I am surprised more parents aren't agreeing that that would be their advice too.

 

 

 

 

But if they had the High GPA and the Research Acumen and did it while playing ball -- I bet that would make you stand up and taken notice.  Cause that would show smarts plus discipline galore.

 

But yeah without the grades and the research ball player alone won't add much I bet.

 

^^^^

Yes indeed SluggerDad. 

Ca,

 

Education is important. My wife and I are both college graduates. My daughter is in her 5th year at a major D1 getting her Masters in Accounting. Education is important to my son also.  But baseball is too. It is just a matter of walking through the maze of trying to maximize both but not too much to the detriment of either.

 

Three years ago, maybe even 2 yrs ago, I wasn't completely sure that baseball would be in the equation for my son. It is, so he just had to make the best choice (with some guidance) that he could based upon the facts as he knew them last summer.

I have no doubt that there are some people and some professions where being a college athlete would not have a lot of impact.  I would also think that for many people and many professions, it would be a plus.  I would also wonder if in a field such as engineering, with all else being equal between two candidates, would one being a college athlete and the other not have any bearing at all?

CaCO, I'm not saying I disagree with your position.  All I am saying is that my son is at this crossroad in his life journey.  Education is extremely important to me, as I have a doctorate.  All of my kids have heard the value of an education their entire life.  My point is that your child will be a young man at that point in his life and decisions start to become his and less yours.  I know this is hard to fathom at your son's age.  One of the most difficult things I have encountered as a parent is realizing that my wants and desires do not always match theirs, and they will always have the last word when it comes to their life.  I can only speak for my son, but he has made it very clear that he will chase the baseball dream as far as it will take him, and then he plans to continue in baseball in some capacity after his playing days are over.  Again, he is 19 and I realize his mind will most likely change several times before 25.

Another point, or question.  Say an athlete did get a 4 year guarantee on his scholarship.  Coach tells him he won't see the field.  I am assuming that student would NOT have the option of just going to school and not be on the baseball team.  That student would have to go to practices every day.  They would have to sit with the baseball team for all those hours every week KNOWING that they would never play and the only reason they were there is to have the scholarship money.  More than likely, the team would go off to away games and that kid, even as a senior, would probably be sitting in his dorm room while all his teammates are out of town playing baseball.  If that student did not want to do that and only go to school, I am sure there are stipulations in the offer in which the scholarship could be rescinded. Such as not showing up to practices and fulfilling his responsibilities as a member of the team. 

 

So, that kid could not be ONLY a student AND keep the baseball scholarship.  That could be a humiliating experience.

I would also wonder if in a field such as engineering, with all else being equal between two candidates, would one being a college athlete and the other not have any bearing at all?

Maybe?  But I would say I'm not sure I've ever seen the 'all else being equal' case.  There's always a reason someone takes the lead in an interview process and its usually 'the interview' itself or references or summer internship experiences (which baseball players won't have).  The non-athlete would have that (some experience) and that could re-equalize or even overcome the athlete on that dimension.
Again, I have seen what it takes firsthand through 2 sons - so I am not a supporter of that point of view, but I have in fact seen the athlete vs. non-athlete scenario play out in my profession and in the end, the 'athlete' part didn't make much of a difference.  It just didn't.

I agree 100%

 

I don’t think we’ve had a chance to fully understand the ramifications of the “Four Year Guaranteed Scholarships with stipend” at the Power 5 programs yet.  One would think that it would require programs to think long and hard about extending offers (although that still doesn’t seem to be the case with the amount of recent early offers).  I’m thinking more about the kid who is recruited, offered and accepts a significant baseball scholarship at a Power 5 school.

 

I know the prevailing sentiment here has always been that regardless of the wording, scholarships are all year to year, and if a coach doesn’t want you, he’ll find a way to get rid of you.  However, I could see that changing with the advent of the 4 year scholarship.   The landscape will be full of players that in previous years would be encouraged to seek other opportunities after their freshman or sophomore years.  Understanding that for some that are baseball first, that will still be the preferred option, but I have to imagine as Roothog pointed out, that there will be a significant amount of kids (and their parents) that would be unwilling (or financially unable) to walk away from 2-3 additional years of a guaranteed scholarship to go the transfer route.   I’m not talking about a malcontent kid complaining about playing time or having off the field issues, I’m talking about a kid who is a solid D1 player, performing in the classroom and genuinely likes the school that he is attending.  It will be interesting to see the tact that Head Coaches employ going forward.  Not sure of the answers, but I predict there will be a few well publicized instances of players being “strongly encouraged” by coaches to walk away from their “guaranteed” scholarships.

There is no way I would advise my son to stay at a school where he is unwanted by the new staff...EVER!  If he still wanted to play baseball, and said school was a D-1, I would tell him to go DII or DIII.  He could still get a quality education and play.  Win/Win. 

 

I think it would depend entirely on the hiring manager.  Some probably couldn't care less, and some would think it is great. 

This has been difficult for me at times.  It's their life, their dream, and they can/will make that abundantly clear at times.  You can offer your advice, and give them direction, but ultimately, they will make their own decisions.  Just give them love and support, and it will work out.

 

First, at this point 4 year baseball scholarships are more rare than a 95 mph FB.

 

But remember, your son still has to show up to every practice and do all team activities to keep that scholarship. If a kid is faced with the decision to give up his scholarship or stay with a team where he isn't wanted, the money and credits are only part of the decision making.

 

Many people will tell you that their college years were some of the best of their lives. For athletes, being part of the team is a huge part of that. I wouldn't push my son to stay for the scholarship if the team experience wasn't good.

And everyone remember (I'm sure most are completely aware), this baseball scholarship money is not a full ride.  It's not like it's a full ride like football and basketball.  It may only be 25%.  Which can be significant to some, but is it worth it for your kid to go through a miserable experience for that kind of money?  I don't know.

 

Even for the kids who don't have a chance to move on in baseball beyond college, baseball is these kid's life.  It's all most of them have known.  They want that experience to last as long as it can, even if it does end after college.  Most feel that their life would not be the same without baseball.  They couldn't even imagine what it would be like to not go to the field almost every day.  To hang out with teammates.  To have "brothers" that are their best friends.  It is more than just something they do.  For most of these guys, it really is who they are.  At least in their minds.  I guarantee that for most of these college baseball players, if you asked them to define themselves, the first thing that would come to their mind would be "I'm a baseball player".  To give that up before the time comes, would be virtually unthinkable.

 

We know as parents that life goes on after baseball.  But for these kids who have been playing since they were 5, 6, 7, 8 years old, it's all they know.  And I guarantee that most of us could tell stories of seeing our kids doing things that told us they would be a baseball player long before they started playing organized ball as well.  It's in their blood.  Most will not give up until they are forced to.

Roothog66...4 year deals are only committed too at the time of signing. So, whether it was offered at the verbal, it only becomes reality in November of senior year. If a player throws 84 and never improves, its likely that Vandy would not offer a 4 year guarantee.

 

Now, here is my two cents having personal experience. PO jr signed a DI NLI with a 4 year guarantee. Received a academic scholarship as well from the business school, mantained a 3.0 GPA to be eligible for both. Freshman year baseball went well by most standards 3-1. Sophomore year was told he would be a redshirt because 2 LHP transfers & 2 LHP incoming. During his sophomore year he worked hard, but was limited to ball boy, primary shagger, weekend bagel pick boy and first class radar gun operator with high level charting skills. In hindsight, this was all done in an effort to beat him down so he would quit & they would get his scholarship back. That did not work, so in late April he was told he was no longer in their future plans. They would honor his scholarship, but he would only see the field in the capacity of aforementioned duties. Or, they would help him transfer, give him a release and go on his merry way.

His release stated, he could not transfer in conference. NCAA rules would still require one year of sitting out. JC was not an option as he would be a junior academically with 3 years eligibility. 

All said and done, it cost our family money walking away from about 55% scholarship. But who wants to stay where you are no longer wanted. 

The 4 year guarantee came up many times early on many times on this site. It seems like a great deal until you realize that a bat boy scholarship only goes so far.

PO jr is now enrolled in a good business school, with a smaller athlelic scholarship to play on a DII baseball team that is rebuilding.

If there is a moral to the story I'll let you know once I figure it out.

Bottom line, play ball as long as you can without forgetting that your education is important. 

Stay eligible first to play baseball second.

While I agree with most of your post there is more to college than what is found in the books.  I was a similar student and feel that many of my skills increased significantly in college.  The ability to jump through the hoops and nock down the roadblocks to earn that piece of paper taught me a lot more than I realized when I walked off the campus with a degree.

Don't discard the students that actually do more than the minimum required and really take advantage of all the resources a college has to offer.  They will get significantly more from college than students like us. 

 

Plus the benefits of a fully committed college student coming out of an Ivy league school is ten fold to your local run of the mill state college.  The contacts from the alumni alone increase ones earning power significantly. 

Good discussion, here is my perspective as a parent of a 4 year college player now with an engineering degree in grad school who does not miss it one bit. (more on this later)

 

College baseball is hard and not everyone is cut out for it. Many think they are, but once they get into the grind, they drop out. (see below) Parents should expect this just by looking at the statistics. (I know I did not until I saw it)

 

Baseball ends for everybody at some point. Very few are able to play in college, and significantly fewer stick it out for 4 years. (like 75% of those who start drop before they are Sr's.))  

 

Do not underestimate injuries, there are lots of them and many lose part or all of a season. (mine did)

 

You can be a STEM major and get good grades, but not likely at a D1, in fact you can probably not do STEM at most D1 programs. ( I classify Ivy and Patriot more high end D3ish in this regard)  It takes even more discipline to pull STEM off but  it can be done.

 

For us we did not compromise on education vs baseball. (well maybe just a little, but really just picked another option that was attractive for a whole bunch of other reasons it was part of our selection process) (the numbers on transfers from one program to another are very high something like 50%)

 

You DON'T have to play summer ball and can do research and still play at a high level. For STEM majors I would suggest this as it sets you up for life beyond baseball. Mine played one season of official college summer league and two of modified. (1-2 days be week) Mine worked one summer and did University research one summer, which lead to his acceptance into a fully funded graduate program. 

 

My son likely could have played beyond college as an un-drafted signee, but purposely let organisations know he was done. He has many friends playing in the MiLB and he has told me that he does not know how they do it, it is even HARDER than college ball in his opinion.

 

My son does not miss it and is experiencing the many other things in life that he missed out on doing baseball for so many years. Fishing, hunting, going kayaking, wake boarding, tennis, playing his guitar, going to a a pub with buddies, playing basketball, etc, etc, 

 

With all of this he probably would not have chosen to not play ball in college as it was an unbelievable experience, and a unique one that few get to participate in. (I am actually going to see him tomorrow night so I will ask him the question....when we are out at a pub enjoying the local nightlife. 

 

Finally it has to be your son's dream not yours, sometimes us parents start to make it ours (I know I did at one point in time and had to step back and let him take the lead)

 

 Best of luck to all of the Freshmen starting up in their college experience and good luck to those still hunting for a place to play. 

 

 

 

Very true. But as you say, it can be done.

 

Mariota gets the award he came back for: A college degree

 

I know this is the exception that proves your rule, BOF, but I think that with technology enabling anytime, anywhere learning ... and emphasis ... more D1's will successfully integrate high academics with athletics in the future.

 

(But of course, I've been guilty of wishful thinking when it comes to my kids before!)

BOF,

 

Are you on the right or left of the emoticon?

 

Ted

So, from 1957 - 1973 all NCAA sports scholarships were required to be 4-yr guaranteed deals. My understanding is that coaches pushed for the change to year-to-year scholarships because they felt they had no control over the athletes. So does anyone know how things worked back then in regards to some of the issues we're discussing?

 

Interestingly, I read an article on this subject last year and it was amazing how many NCAA athletes assumed that their scholarships already were 4-year deals. There were guys who didn't even get the clue from the yearly renewal paperwork.

Been doing some  roster research at my son's school the last couple of weeks, just to get a more realistic picture of what might be in store for him.  Your point about attrition along the way seems to me to be very well taken. Just as an example, at my son's school over the past several years on the order of 9 or 10 non-senior players each year who are on the roster at year x are not on the roster at year x + 1.  That's roughly a1/3 of the roster.  The number of seniors each year is somewhat inflated by a steady but small stream of JC transfers.   Which I found a little surprising for a D3.  

 

Not sure how much that generalizes or if it varies from level to level  Couldn't say whether the attrition is more or less severe at D1's as opposed to D3'. Of course, D1's, at least top ones, tend to have a lot fewer seniors because many juniors get drafted.   But I'm willing to believe that independently of the draft, attrition is high at any level. 

 

Not saying attrition is necessarily a bad thing either.  I  know that when I myself stopped wrestling at the beginning of my junior season in college -- something I had been doing at a high level through junior high, high school, summer AAU tournaments, and for two years in college -- it actually felt like a great weight had finally been lifted -- even though I loved wrestling -- and that I was actually for the first time an actual full out college student.   I imagine many give up baseball in college with the same sort of feeling.

Several years ago transfers were the common thing in college baseball.  Transfers were so common it was impossible to keep up with all of them.

 

So in that regard some of the new rules have really cut back on the number of transfers.  Especially that one year no play rule for DI.

 

Is it a good thing?  I don't see the 4 year scholarship as being that big a deal.  If they don't want you they will work to get rid of you.  And for those they want to keep, even the player wanting to transfer, might think twice.  So the result is less transfers.

Thanks for sharing your family's experience, that is a real eye opener...

I'm not sure I understand how anyone would not be aware of the scholarship details.  It spells it out very clearly on the NLI that is signed by the student-athlete as exactly what the scholarship covers and for what period of time.  Now as far as changes to the scholarship after the first year, we haven't crossed that bridge yet.

CaCo,

As you pointed out previously, it is always appropriate to recommend prioritizing academics over athletics, as is often stated here.  I don't think anyone is saying that wouldn't be the advice.  I think the many comments, including mine, are just pointing out that the reality is the pursuit of passion and dreams can muddy the waters significantly when push comes to shove and sometimes what seems the obvious logical path to many isn't necessarily the best for a given individual.

 

My other two...

..oldest son is in grad school for physical therapy.  An absolute fit for his personality and passion.  Our advice to him along the way was just to make sure he finishes his schooling before he gets married and starts a family.  Yeah, well he is now married with two kids, he and his wife balanced schedules (she an engineer) going through school with kids.  She graduated and is in the work force.  He temporarily detoured so that she could finish up and now he is back at it with finishing his grad work.  Definitely not the path of sound logical advice but the grandkids are remarkable treasures and mom and dad have found a way to get it done... the hard way.

 

... middle daughter is set for nursing school.  Our advice to her coming out of HS was to make sure she stayed in college so she wouldn't let life derail her direction.  She loves to travel.  It has taken her far too long with several skipped semesters to complete all of her pre-major prerequisites.  She traveled to South America for several months.  She went to Mexico for a while to kite-surf.  She is going to Thailand for a few months ("maybe longer, we'll see what there is to see") this fall.  She did this all on her own, going to school for a while, working several jobs like crazy for a while, then just taking time off, wash, rinse, repeat.  Meanwhile, she did finish those pre-major courses, will do volunteer nursing work while in Thailand to build her portfolio and seems as focused as ever with a plan toward that nursing degree upon her return... getting it done the hard way.  (I'm starting to think that's our family motto.)    

This sure as heck isn't the path we had in mind for her.  Sure as heck isn't what traditional common sense logic would suggest.  But, WOW, has she done some amazing things with her life already and is still on track to cover the few requirements on dad's checklist.

 

Yes, continue to trumpet the virtues of academics and doing things the right way.  But expect the curve balls, love 'em, support 'em and respect that they will have to do things on their own terms. 

You know, the thing is when you're young you can be carefree and take risks.  So I say go for it.  There will always be traditional academics when you're done.  Just make sure that it is also included in your plans. 

 

I did it the "traditional way."  4 years of school.  Check.  Job.  Check.  Wife. Check. Kid. Check.  Then one day I woke up and realized there where many things I was supposed to do that I didn't.  Real life got in the way.  Now the risk is too high as I have obligations - can't much quit your job when you have to put a kid thru college in a few years.   

Some of these stories are just so depressing.  Is this really how we should treat people, let alone college students? 

 

I am rethinking whether the kid should even try to play at the next level.  Doesn't sound like a whole lot of fun to me. 

The NCAA is _____________ (Fill in the blank).

Let me offer a different scenario. What if pursuing baseball in lieu of the better academic opportunity offers a chance for personal growth/development that ultimately leads to "better" career/life opportunities?

 

My son was recruited late his senior year. Previously he had been accepted into an engineering program at a prestigious college (non-baseball) but was then offered a preferred walk-on opportunity at another high-caliber college, a college he would not have a attended absent baseball. Against the better advice of this message board but with some encouraging nudging by me, he chose baseball which, as he soon learned, was not compatible with studying engineering. Fast forward. He graduated this past spring. While his baseball experience fell short of his hopes, he had a great overall experience and was a solid contributor throughout his career. On Senior Day we exchanged a teary hug and he thanked me for encouraging him to pursue baseball, telling me "it was the best experience (and decision) of his life."

 

As a result of his college baseball experience, his personal growth was tremendous. He gained a lot of personal confidence and grew into a strong and highly respected team leader. As he launched his job search, it quickly became apparent that he was very attractive to prospective employers, landing job offers with the first two employers he spoke to (both large, national companies) and serious interest among several others. He enthusiastically started his "career" earlier this month.

 

Although we will never know for sure, I believe in my heart (self-fulfilling prophecy?) that in terms of realizing his life's potential and happiness, he made the right choice. Among the positives - taking chances, work ethic, dealing with adversity, perseverance, friendships, confidence, comfort with uncertain and new situations, leadership, ability to handle stress, criticism and failure. Among the negatives - he's not an engineer?  

Some people are free spirits and I applaud making your own path in the world.  I too went the traditional route, and I love the stability my chosen path has resulted in.  It may not be for everyone, it may not work for my son, but haven't parents been grumbling about their kids choices since the dawn of time?

 

So, this entire discussion kind of sounds like a situation normal all muddied up type thing.

There is a book Meat On The Hoof from when Darryl Royal coached Texas football. This was during the four year scholarship era. In the book it said if he had no use for a player he had him hold a blocking dummy and run play after play over him until the player quit.

Hmm.... going to a school for academics and playing for the club team doesn't sound too bad anymore

If in fact college is to prepare our sons for the "real" (business) world, then year to year baseball scholarships make sense. We all know in the business world, our performance is evaluated yearly. Just an early dose of the "what have you done for me lately" mantra.

The original post is pretty much an anomaly.  I understand that there have been a lot of negative scenarios presented here and they do happen.  I have seen a lot of kids come and go, not only from my son's school, but following some of the kids he has played with as well.

 

However, there are many, many positive stories as well.  My son was offered a baseball scholarship at his school.  The coach told him he would honor it all four years, unless some off the field issues prevented that.  The coach held true to his word.  My son is a senior this year and it has all worked out.  There are many, many other stories like this.  Some coaches will mess with scholarship money, some coaches will be true to their word and continue to offer the award each year for the 4 years.  This is why a player and family should do research prior to signing.  Check with former players and their families.  See if the coach did what he said he would.

 

Is there a risk with all this?  yep.  But, there are plenty of positive stories along with the horror stories we have heard throughout this thread.

 

Just thought I'd throw that in there.  

 

Tell that to these guys.

 

 

 

And yes, I know everyone doesn't have this much fun.  

 

Or these guys.  This is an audio clip from a game my son's team played the year before last.  My son started pitching the game, left in the 8th with one out ahead 2-1.  Game wound up going into the 10th inning with this clip describing the last play.  This game put us in the D2 Regional finals.  We had to beat the #3 team in the country twice to go to the CWS.  Beat them the first game, snapping their 20 game win streak and came up just short in the second game.  But this game was just an awesome experience.  Listening to this still gives me chills!!

 

http://m.newsradio540.com/arti...-tournament-12365017

 

What a great thread with so many diverse opinions and stories.  I think the title is perfect - it is a business, and it's a tough one.  In my opinion, it is a tough business, and the playing field isn't always level.  Coaches and universities understand it well, players and families (of prospective incoming players) simply do not.  I think that's why it is so often viewed as unfair, and why there are so many tales of disappointment and situations not working out as players and families had hoped. 

 

I do think that there is terrific value in the lessons learned by playing baseball in college.  My biased view as a Dad of one playing in college, and soon to be two, is that the experience will make them better men, and someday to be better emplyees with solid careers.  I flatly disagree with the premise that it is just a piece of paper and it doesn't matter where it comes from.  I just don't think that's true, but I respect those who may not share the view.  Son 1 utilized his baseball skill to gain admission into a high academic D1 school that I don't believe he could have gained admission to otherwise.  I believe that decision, to forgo several opportunities to play at a higher baseball level, will pay dividends for the rest of his life.  Others may disagree.  He will get to maintain his passion to play and derive all the associated benefits. 

 

Good luck to all.