Ivy baseball

@SpeedDemon posted:

Or "You are limiting my financial benefit by not recognizing my athletic merit. Which your peers, Stanford and Duke and Vanderbilt, have recognized."

And how would the Ivies defend themselves?

Wouldn't they simply say that Stanford, Duke, and Vanderbilt are NOT their peers, because they are in different athletic conferences?  I don't see the issue.

A student can choose to go to a different school that gives a big merit or athletic scholarship; that has been happening forever. I can't see a way that a student could say, Vanderbilt is giving me a $50,000 merit scholarship, so Yale has to do the same.  That's like someone going to their employer and saying another company wants to give them a big raise; the original company is allowed to refuse.  That's not "price-fixing".

@ABSORBER posted:

As I thought...  so first up... the NCAA.

Nothing can happen until they change. A student (who shows financial need) will receive far more $ at an Ivy than they will at Vandy, Stanford or Duke.

For baseball anyway. Head-count sport athletes, which excludes Ivy (FCS) football), may have a different view.

Some athletes may receive a lot of need-based aid, some may receive none at all. And there's far more money in academics than athletics.

All of this is beside the point.

The core issue is that the Ivy League restricts aid to demonstrated financial need only, which violates SCOTUS' decision in Alston saying that schools cannot restrict students financial benefit related to their education. As D1 schools the Ivies have the ability to provide merit-based aid related to athletics but they don't. And as long as they continue look away from that they're exposed to a lawsuit.

Also, I just read Kavanaugh's concurrence. He just about invites someone to bring a suit that tests the broadness of the Alston ruling. The court clearly wants to expand what they've started. It would not surprise me if schools start paying athletes for their attendance in the next few years.

The Ivies should just offer athletic money. It's the easiest path and it won't cost them much.

I'm not denying the passion for any particular sports at all.  I'm just saying that there is no need for Ivy League schools to be a D1 conference, when their most successful teams are in sports that don't compete at the D1 level.  If they were a D3 conference, they would have the same storied league rivalries, and they wouldn't be such an anomaly when it comes to no athletic scholarships.  That is literally all I'm saying.

Country-club sports:  yesterday's NY Times:  https://www.nytimes.com/2022/1...lege-admissions.html:  "Fencing Can Be Six-Figure Expensive, but It Wins in College Admissions.  How niche sports offer a pathway to the Ivy League and other elite schools."

It has been posted many times on this site that at big-time baseball programs, students are discouraged from majoring in tough STEM subjects, because it's really hard.  Those of you with sons at Ivy schools frequently post about how they chose to go to schools where they could major in those subjects.  I think it's fantastic.

@SpeedDemon posted:

Some athletes may receive a lot of need-based aid, some may receive none at all. And there's far more money in academics than athletics.

All of this is beside the point.

The core issue is that the Ivy League restricts aid to demonstrated financial need only, which violates SCOTUS' decision in Alston saying that schools cannot restrict students financial benefit related to their education. As D1 schools the Ivies have the ability to provide merit-based aid related to athletics but they don't. And as long as they continue look away from that they're exposed to a lawsuit.

Also, I just read Kavanaugh's concurrence. He just about invites someone to bring a suit that tests the broadness of the Alston ruling. The court clearly wants to expand what they've started. It would not surprise me if schools start paying athletes for their attendance in the next few years.

The Ivies should just offer athletic money. It's the easiest path and it won't cost them much.

Again, offering athletic money would only be beneficial for head-count sports. Not so much for equivalency sports (which includes FCS football). I can guarantee that piece of the equivalency pie does not compare to the FA offered. And those wealthy athletes would still get their unneeded athletic money which further reduces the portions for the needy athletes. The Ivy League doesn't award athletic scholarships because recruiting would suffer.  They can offer far more $ to more athletes via FA. So until they NCAA allows full athletic scholarships to all sports then it makes more sense to offer FA to those athletes who demonstrate need.

@anotherparent posted:

Wouldn't they simply say that Stanford, Duke, and Vanderbilt are NOT their peers, because they are in different athletic conferences?  I don't see the issue.

A student can choose to go to a different school that gives a big merit or athletic scholarship; that has been happening forever. I can't see a way that a student could say, Vanderbilt is giving me a $50,000 merit scholarship, so Yale has to do the same.  That's like someone going to their employer and saying another company wants to give them a big raise; the original company is allowed to refuse.  That's not "price-fixing".

The SCOTUS ruling applied to the entire NCAA, not just individual conferences.

The charge of price fixing relates to the Ivies restricting prospective students to needs-based aid.

SCOTUS said schools can't limit the educational financial benefits. Looking away from merit-based athletic scholarships, despite being D1, despite having billions in endowment, despite being the only D1 league to do so, and the despite the obvious collusion that results in all 8 Ivies saying they won't provide merit money, is just bad. Bad look. Bad policy. Moral hazard.

They are going to get sued. And they won't win.

Better for them to front-run the inevitable and just offer merit-based money. If they're not willing to spend their billions on education, what are they going to spend it on?

****

My bet is that they're fairly far down the path towards providing merit money now, because they know they are exposed, and are negotiating what they can get in return.

Perhaps a guarantee against a Federal tax on their endowments, as both the Trump and Biden administrations proposed.

@SpeedDemon posted:

Some athletes may receive a lot of need-based aid, some may receive none at all. And there's far more money in academics than athletics.

All of this is beside the point.

The core issue is that the Ivy League restricts aid to demonstrated financial need only, which violates SCOTUS' decision in Alston saying that schools cannot restrict students financial benefit related to their education. As D1 schools the Ivies have the ability to provide merit-based aid related to athletics but they don't. And as long as they continue look away from that they're exposed to a lawsuit.

Also, I just read Kavanaugh's concurrence. He just about invites someone to bring a suit that tests the broadness of the Alston ruling. The court clearly wants to expand what they've started. It would not surprise me if schools start paying athletes for their attendance in the next few years.

The Ivies should just offer athletic money. It's the easiest path and it won't cost them much.

NCAA has to be addressed first. But isn't that why it exists in the first place? To provide equity in sports amongst the participating schools? Without some form of cap many schools would give up sponsoring sports altogether. It is not a simple issue.

I imagine it would be very difficult to award academic merit to students who represent the top tier of academics in the country/world. And if you happen to be one of those exceptional (and needy) students? Your academic aid offsets your financial need and you end up with the exact same award? So what's the point of giving academic merit awards? Is the extremely wealthy and academically gifted student really going to choose Yale over Harvard because of merit money he doesn't need?

@anotherparent posted:

I'm not denying the passion for any particular sports at all.  I'm just saying that there is no need for Ivy League schools to be a D1 conference, when their most successful teams are in sports that don't compete at the D1 level.  If they were a D3 conference, they would have the same storied league rivalries, and they wouldn't be such an anomaly when it comes to no athletic scholarships.  That is literally all I'm saying.

Country-club sports:  yesterday's NY Times:  https://www.nytimes.com/2022/1...lege-admissions.html:  "Fencing Can Be Six-Figure Expensive, but It Wins in College Admissions.  How niche sports offer a pathway to the Ivy League and other elite schools."

It has been posted many times on this site that at big-time baseball programs, students are discouraged from majoring in tough STEM subjects, because it's really hard.  Those of you with sons at Ivy schools frequently post about how they chose to go to schools where they could major in those subjects.  I think it's fantastic.

No school "needs" to be D1. Does Gonzaga need to be D1? They were eliminated in the region tourney by Columbia who doesn't need to be D1. What about all the other teams that compete in D1? Who didn't make their conference tourney? Who definitely didn't make a regional. Saying a conference doesn't need to be D1 is saying nothing. Participating in D1 is simply a recruiting (for both athletes and non-athletes) mechanism.

@ABSORBER posted:

Again, offering athletic money would only be beneficial for head-count sports. Not so much for equivalency sports (which includes FCS football). I can guarantee that piece of the equivalency pie does not compare to the FA offered. And those wealthy athletes would still get their unneeded athletic money which further reduces the portions for the needy athletes. The Ivy League doesn't award athletic scholarships because recruiting would suffer.  They can offer far more $ to more athletes via FA. So until they NCAA allows full athletic scholarships to all sports then it makes more sense to offer FA to those athletes who demonstrate need.

You are thinking in the past.

And I get it - it's hard to get one's mind around a world where the number of overall scholarships vary by conference, where equivalency/headcount goes away, where the fixed number of scholarships per sport is eliminated and replaced by an overall number of scholarships per school that they then allocate, where schools combine needs-based with merit-based, where colleges aren't allowed to claim that they're better off not providing the full range of assistance so they can spread the wealth more evenly,  etc etc.

But it's coming.

The schools are simply sitting on too much money. And the annual cost of attendance, even for some lower income and middle income families receiving FA, and especially upper for dual income families making $250,000+ year which are the bread and butter of the HA circuit, is simply too high.

*******

I'll wager that within 5 years the P5/FBS schools are paying football and mens basketball players for their attendance. And the Ivies offer athletic scholarships.

Change is good!

Still don’t see how you can force them to pay merit money. Maybe they can’t restrict outside money sources but I don’t see the language forcing the actual schools to pay. And as Absorber pointed out, those in need get money. I wouldn’t say extremely wealthy are the only ones paying full rate, those those that do can certainly afford to do so.

One area they could have issues is negotiating the aid award with athletes. Do they do this with non-athletes? One Ivy coach openly told the athlete to bring any award offer from another Ivy and they would match it. Maybe he knew they’d be the same?

@anotherparent posted:

I'm not denying the passion for any particular sports at all.  I'm just saying that there is no need for Ivy League schools to be a D1 conference, when their most successful teams are in sports that don't compete at the D1 level.  If they were a D3 conference, they would have the same storied league rivalries, and they wouldn't be such an anomaly when it comes to no athletic scholarships.  That is literally all I'm saying.

Country-club sports:  yesterday's NY Times:  https://www.nytimes.com/2022/1...lege-admissions.html:  "Fencing Can Be Six-Figure Expensive, but It Wins in College Admissions.  How niche sports offer a pathway to the Ivy League and other elite schools."

It has been posted many times on this site that at big-time baseball programs, students are discouraged from majoring in tough STEM subjects, because it's really hard.  Those of you with sons at Ivy schools frequently post about how they chose to go to schools where they could major in those subjects.  I think it's fantastic.

^^^^^ yep

agree with all of this

@SpeedDemon posted:

You are thinking in the past.

And I get it - it's hard to get one's mind around a world where the number of overall scholarships vary by conference, where equivalency/headcount goes away, where the fixed number of scholarships per sport is eliminated and replaced by an overall number of scholarships per school that they then allocate, where schools combine needs-based with merit-based, where colleges aren't allowed to claim that they're better off not providing the full range of assistance so they can spread the wealth more evenly,  etc etc.

But it's coming.

The schools are simply sitting on too much money. And the annual cost of attendance, even for some lower income and middle income families receiving FA, and especially upper for dual income families making $250,000+ year which are the bread and butter of the HA circuit, is simply too high.

*******

I'll wager that within 5 years the P5/FBS schools are paying football and mens basketball players for their attendance. And the Ivies offer athletic scholarships.

Change is good!

OK, this I can agree with. But lots of changes are needed first and so my only disagreement is implying Ivies can make the change now. They cannot without NCAA changes happening first.

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

Still don’t see how you can force them to pay merit money. Maybe they can’t restrict outside money sources but I don’t see the language forcing the actual schools to pay. And as Absorber pointed out, those in need get money. I wouldn’t say extremely wealthy are the only ones paying full rate, those those that do can certainly afford to do so.

One area they could have issues is negotiating the aid award with athletes. Do they do this with non-athletes? One Ivy coach openly told the athlete to bring any award offer from another Ivy and they would match it. Maybe he knew they’d be the same?

@ABSORBER posted:

OK, this I can agree with. But lots of changes are needed first and so my only disagreement is implying Ivies can make the change now. They cannot without NCAA changes happening first.

Gonna happen soon.

The NCAA is going to allow conferences to set the number of scholarships, and schools get to allocate them as they see fit. Everything going to headcount.

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

Still don’t see how you can force them to pay merit money. Maybe they can’t restrict outside money sources but I don’t see the language forcing the actual schools to pay. And as Absorber pointed out, those in need get money. I wouldn’t say extremely wealthy are the only ones paying full rate, those those that do can certainly afford to do so.

One area they could have issues is negotiating the aid award with athletes. Do they do this with non-athletes? One Ivy coach openly told the athlete to bring any award offer from another Ivy and they would match it. Maybe he knew they’d be the same?

I suspect they don't do this for non-athletes. They do this for athletes during the recruiting process. Let me stress that again for those that may read this in the future: DURING. Not after you have been admitted. If this is an issue then don't commit until you get a FA estimate in hand.

The big difference in recent years have been whether a particular Ivy had eliminated student loans. Most now do so I would imagine the big differences have been erased.

One thing that I haven't seen touched on in this thread is that Ivy teams play fewer games than a "full" D1 schedule.  Most play in the neighborhood of ~40 games vs 50+ for most D1s, with fewer mid-week games.  This could be a plus or a minus, depending on the player's point of view.

@anotherparent posted:

Wouldn't they simply say that Stanford, Duke, and Vanderbilt are NOT their peers, because they are in different athletic conferences?  I don't see the issue.

A student can choose to go to a different school that gives a big merit or athletic scholarship; that has been happening forever. I can't see a way that a student could say, Vanderbilt is giving me a $50,000 merit scholarship, so Yale has to do the same.  That's like someone going to their employer and saying another company wants to give them a big raise; the original company is allowed to refuse.  That's not "price-fixing".

If the companies get together and agree they will not offer each other's employees big raises, that's collusion and is illegal under antitrust law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...Antitrust_Litigation

The argument doesn't change if it's colleges colluding together in a conference and agreeing they will not offer each other's recruits bigger scholarships.

@auberon posted:

If the companies get together and agree they will not offer each other's employees big raises, that's collusion and is illegal under antitrust law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...Antitrust_Litigation

The argument doesn't change if it's colleges colluding together in a conference and agreeing they will not offer each other's recruits bigger scholarships.

25 elite colleges had a Federal anti-trust exemption that allowed them to collude on how to determine financial aid. Because of this, there was little to be gained by shopping a FA package among the country's most prestigious and  expensive colleges.

But since the anti-trust exemption expired on 9/30/2022, you are now correct.

The only problem is that, even with the exemption gone, there's no incentive for the colleges to change their FA formulas. It will take a significant change - some school deciding to offer free tuition to everyone, say, or some Ivy deciding to start granting athletic scholarships, or someone successfully suing a bunch of schools for price-fixing - before anything changes.

The analogy would be a group of employers agreeing to a wage cap, then getting the government to exempt them from any consequences. Even after the exemption expired the employers would want to keep setting wages the same way as before. The employers would only change if the previous way of determining compensation became a competitive liability, or if some court told them they had to.

TL;DR - Up until 27 days ago, colleges could collude on FA. Too early to determine what the effects of them not being able to do it anymore.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/e...ng-lawsuit-advances/

Just out of curiosity, is someone going to argue that the NCAA can't say that D3s are not allowed to NOT offer athletic scholarships?  Is it actually collusion to decide to be part of an organization that all agree on how they will do things?

I would not have believed this could happen, much less work, but here it is, lawsuit against Brown (of all schools) for not offering athletic scholarships:

https://abcnews.go.com/Busines...ship-policy-97715505

@anotherparent posted:

.................... lawsuit against Brown (of all schools) for not offering athletic scholarships:

https://abcnews.go.com/Busines...ship-policy-97715505

You owe me a new shirt!

I think I may have threw up on mine