Ivy Tuition for Upper Middle Class

It depends on the definition of "upper middle class."  I think Princeton is very generous on incomes up to $250,000.

And all Princeton aid is in the form of grants, not loans. From Princeton's website:

I'm paying so much more for college than I ever imagined, and I've been planning for years, felt I was as well informed as anyone , and by no means a wealthy man.  For years I said "no way, will they expect me to pay that."  Boy was I wrong.

My kids don't go to Ivy but I'm sure that Princeton chart is crap.  It doesn't take into account your assets or home equity, for example.

No, I'm not bitter

CTbballDad posted:

I'm paying so much more for college than I ever imagined, and I've been planning for years, felt I was as well informed as anyone , and by no means a wealthy man.  For years I said "no way, will they expect me to pay that."  Boy was I wrong.

My kids don't go to Ivy but I'm sure that Princeton chart is crap.  It doesn't take into account your assets or home equity, for example.

No, I'm not bitter

The way I read it, below $180,000 every single applicant qualified, but between $180,000 and $250,000 it varied, depending on things like assets or home equity, but still most people qualified. Above $250,000 most did not.

Just for comparison, though, the 90th percentile for household income in this country was $170,000 in 2017, and the 95th percentile was $225,000 (see https://dqydj.com/united-state...rackets-percentiles/). For the vast majority of American families, the grants from an Ivy like Princeton are a better deal than a partial baseball scholarship (for most players, of course -- there are some outstanding players getting 90%+ at some schools)

2019Dad posted:

CTbballDad posted:

I'm paying so much more for college than I ever imagined, and I've been planning for years, felt I was as well informed as anyone , and by no means a wealthy man.  For years I said "no way, will they expect me to pay that."  Boy was I wrong.

My kids don't go to Ivy but I'm sure that Princeton chart is crap.  It doesn't take into account your assets or home equity, for example.

No, I'm not bitter

The way I read it, below $180,000 every single applicant qualified, but between $180,000 and $250,000 it varied, depending on things like assets or home equity, but still most people qualified. Above $250,000 most did not.

Just for comparison, though, the 90th percentile for household income in this country was $170,000 in 2017, and the 95th percentile was $225,000 (see https://dqydj.com/united-state...rackets-percentiles/). For the vast majority of American families, the grants from an Ivy like Princeton are a better deal than a partial baseball scholarship (for most players, of course -- there are some outstanding players getting 90%+ at some schools)

To add: Princeton's endowment of $22+ billion and undergraduate enrollment of 5,300 means it has the highest per student endowment in the country; they can afford it.

2019Dad posted:

It depends on the definition of "upper middle class."  I think Princeton is very generous on incomes up to $250,000.

And all Princeton aid is in the form of grants, not loans. From Princeton's website:

Gross Family Income	Percent Qualified	Average Grant	What It Covers
$0–65,000	100%	$67,350	Full tuition, college fee, room + board
$65,000–85,000	100%	$62,865	Full tuition, college fee, 76% room + board
$85,000–100,000	100%	$59,140	Full tuition, college fee, 54% room + board
$100,000–120,000	100%	$55,540	Full tuition, college fee, 32% room + board
$120,000–140,000	100%	$53,180	Full tuition, college fee, 17% room + board
$140,000–160,000	100%	$50,000	Full tuition
$160,000–180,000	100%	$43,900	89% tuition
$180,000–200,000	91%	$38,810	78% tuition
$200,000–250,000	83%	$29,900	60% tuition
$250,000 and above (most who qualify have 2 children in college)	33%	$22,880	46% tuition

This isn't accurate if you have significant assets.  For example, if you have money in a 529, significant investment accounts, rental property, etc you may likely get $0 even if you have low income.

CTbballDad posted:

I'm paying so much more for college than I ever imagined, and I've been planning for years, felt I was as well informed as anyone , and by no means a wealthy man.  For years I said "no way, will they expect me to pay that."  Boy was I wrong.

My kids don't go to Ivy but I'm sure that Princeton chart is crap.  It doesn't take into account your assets or home equity, for example.

No, I'm not bitter

CTbballdad is in the same boat as me. My wife is ticked, because her feelings are had we pissed away our money instead of saving it we would not be paying as much for college. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

You are dead on the money (pun intended) regarding how financial aide will look at your assets. My family falls in what I would consider “too comfortable to be poor, too poor to be rich “ category. My plan to retire and watch my son’s college ball games just got a reality check when we got back the financial aid pkg for him. I called as spoke to the head honcho and she informed me our assets played a significant factor, as well as having a sibling enrolled in an undergrad program. We get to pay for 3 years at full sticker price when she graduates her undergrad, even though she is going to medical school after. Yeah, gonna start a go fund me page I think.

In retrospect, I am honored to foot the bill for these two kids of mine, they are achieving their goals, and equally important, their dreams. Proud as hell of both of them.

This is all so frustrating!  None of this seems to take into account cost of living, which is a real game changer in several parts of the country. Garyme—agree with your wife that we should have just spent our money rather than saving it—maybe one of us should quit our jobs too! 

I get that Ivy schools are in a special league (pun intended), but even so, it seems the value of a college degree these days is not what it used to be and kids really need a graduate degree to get ahead. So, paying full sticker price for Ivy undergrad when a kid can get significant merit and/or athletic money at a great non-Ivy school does not seem to make a whole lot of economical sense, unless you are made of money. 

I agree. Other schools are good too.if you can't afford ivy get a nice degree at a good college you can afford.

My calculator is ordering me and my wife to quit our jobs before 2022 

This takes as much planning as the development of Johnny.

Our financial planner mentioned , “Strategic Divorce” when my son was born based on the rising costs of College and the availability of eventual scholarships and grants.

I’ve passed on this info to many and the FAFSA calculator rings like a one armed bandit.

Similar to a Company filing bankruptcy or Commercial Banks claiming a Strategic Default; it does not indicate the lack of financial strength of the firm. Rather, it’s a Strategy to move you to a better financial outcome based on an existing detrimental landscape.

”Due” the Numbers.

Smitty is right that significant assets will alter the calculation, with two exceptions: (1) your primary residence is not counted; (2) retirement accounts are not counted. With those exceptions, from what I've read, they'll expect 5% of assets to be available for college expenses. So someone with, say, $1.5 million in non-retirement, non-primary-residence assets is not getting grants, even if their income is $0.

I assure you I am nowhere near that number and I will draw a big goose-egg in institutional grant $ when my daughter completes her undergrad and my son starts his sophomore year. The financial aid Dept clearly told me the equity in my primary residence was an asset that was considered. So, it may be a school-to-school situation with how they allocate grant aid, as the endowments of schools obviously differ. My sons future school has a $700M+ endowment. Not sure where the 5% number you reference comes from, maybe that applies to a particular Ivy League school, but in my case I would do cartwheels at the prospect of paying 5% of my assets in tuition.

Pretty interesting write-up on assets:

https://www.collegedata.com/cs...html?articleId=10089

This is precisely why my son went EA and RD. We told him we need to see there FA packages before any commitment. 

2019Dad posted:

Smitty is right that significant assets will alter the calculation, with two exceptions: (1) your primary residence is not counted; (2) retirement accounts are not counted. With those exceptions, from what I've read, they'll expect 5% of assets to be available for college expenses. So someone with, say, $1.5 million in non-retirement, non-primary-residence assets is not getting grants, even if their income is $0.

Your primary resident home equity counts for schools that use the CSS Profile, which is the majority of HA schools.  5.64% of your non-retirement goes toward your EFC.  If you're "upper middle class" based on the title of this thread, I would think you'd have some assets.

CTbballDad posted:

2019Dad posted:

Smitty is right that significant assets will alter the calculation, with two exceptions: (1) your primary residence is not counted; (2) retirement accounts are not counted. With those exceptions, from what I've read, they'll expect 5% of assets to be available for college expenses. So someone with, say, $1.5 million in non-retirement, non-primary-residence assets is not getting grants, even if their income is $0.

Your primary resident home equity counts for schools that use the CSS Profile, which is the majority of HA schools.  5.64% of your non-retirement goes toward your EFC.  If you're "upper middle class" based on the title of this thread, I would think you'd have some assets.

Yeah, it differs by school. He mentioned Princeton in the original post; Princeton does not count your primary residence, and I believe uses 5%, not 5.64%. For the vast majority of Americans, it can be a great deal. For the top 20% in terms of income/assets, perhaps not a great deal.

The financial aid is based on FAFSA at all schools, thus the final amount would apply anywhere.  The grant/scholarship money (academic and athletic) are the ones that can be manipulated.  Private/Ivy universities generally have big endowment and supporters.  Even though it might cost a few buck to visit these schools and camps it might turn out for the best.  Once son gets these schools narrowed down to best fit, schedule an appointment with financial aid office (keep coaches also appraised) and see what the bottom line cost will be.  You would be surprised to see how much academic money is given when the athletic money doesn't meet your expectations.  This works best where the coach really wants son to play for him.  My nephew plays college basketball at a private university.  A financial offer was presented to nephew, didn't meet their expectation since would still cost too much.  Talks went on for a few months, each time university found more money.  At the end of the day, final offer was something like $29K more than original offer.  If they really want your kid, there will be a way.  Good luck

So last night at dinner out with some friends this topic came up.  Some insisted that, even where their "official" financial aid estimators say zero aid, Ivy schools (and others with large endowments) can and often do adjust their "need-based" parameters so that they can offer money to athletes.  That's not the sense I'm getting from reading many of the threads here, but wondered if anyone has knowledge of this?

Trust In Him--I sent my last post before seeing yours, and you kind of answered my question.  I suppose you never know until you try.  First hurdle is getting accepted/baseball offer!

2020Hopeful posted:

So last night at dinner out with some friends this topic came up.  Some insisted that, even where their "official" financial aid estimators say zero aid, Ivy schools (and others with large endowments) can and often do adjust their "need-based" parameters so that they can offer money to athletes.  That's not the sense I'm getting from reading many of the threads here, but wondered if anyone has knowledge of this?

I can't say categorically that this isn't true, but I was told by two Ivy head coaches (one of whom offered my son a slot) that they have no say in the money side of things.

I will also add that I have heard many stories from friends who swear they have friends who got full-ride athletic scholarships or huge merit awards - i.e., patently false claims that people make up for whatever reason.  If your dinner friends do not have a child with direct experience in this situation, I would be cautious believing their stories.

2022NYC posted:

My calculator is ordering me and my wife to quit our jobs before 2022 

Ha. I keep telling my wife to stop earning money!

I do have sympathy for families on the coasts, where the cost of living is much higher, and the definition of "upper middle class" income is different than, say, in the midwest.

In general, though, I have found some elite HA institutions (i.e. Swarthmore, Amherst, Harvard) to have better financial aid than other elite schools such as WUSTL or U of Chicago. It's all about the endowment.

Some of the very bright kids around here have chosen to go the Honors route at their local State Flagship(B10), where they get a free education, essentially.  No baseball, of course.

If you want to play baseball in school and don't want to pay much tuition then there are a ton of options such as D2's, some D3's(though some HA's are just as expensive, if not more, than an Ivy) and Jucos.  Over 2/3rd's of McGill's(Quebec) baseball team is American...UBC's( British Columbia) tuition is reasonable, and they play NAIA. 

Bottom line is that an Ivy education is for the elites, whether it be monied, athletic, or academic. 

I detect a whiff of "this isn't fair" in this discussion of upper-middle class folks having to pay full retail for top academic schools.  If you don't qualify for the financial aid, congrats, you are doing well.  If you don't want to pay full retail to go to that top school, focus elsewhere.

Trust In Him posted:

The financial aid is based on FAFSA at all schools, thus the final amount would apply anywhere.  The grant/scholarship money (academic and athletic) are the ones that can be manipulated.  Private/Ivy universities generally have big endowment and supporters.  Even though it might cost a few buck to visit these schools and camps it might turn out for the best.  Once son gets these schools narrowed down to best fit, schedule an appointment with financial aid office (keep coaches also appraised) and see what the bottom line cost will be.  You would be surprised to see how much academic money is given when the athletic money doesn't meet your expectations.  This works best where the coach really wants son to play for him.  My nephew plays college basketball at a private university.  A financial offer was presented to nephew, didn't meet their expectation since would still cost too much.  Talks went on for a few months, each time university found more money.  At the end of the day, final offer was something like $29K more than original offer.  If they really want your kid, there will be a way.  Good luck

I'm sorry, but the bold is simply not true for schools that also use the CSS.  Yes, you have to fill out the FAFSA for all schools, but most private/HA also require, and use, the CSS.

If you use a FAFSA and CSS calculator for a given school, you will notice different aide, especially if you have home equity.

2020Hopeful posted:

Trust In Him--I sent my last post before seeing yours, and you kind of answered my question.  I suppose you never know until you try.  First hurdle is getting accepted/baseball offer!

Exactly, one step at a time, trust in the process.

CTbballDad posted:

Trust In Him posted:

The financial aid is based on FAFSA at all schools, thus the final amount would apply anywhere.  The grant/scholarship money (academic and athletic) are the ones that can be manipulated.  Private/Ivy universities generally have big endowment and supporters.  Even though it might cost a few buck to visit these schools and camps it might turn out for the best.  Once son gets these schools narrowed down to best fit, schedule an appointment with financial aid office (keep coaches also appraised) and see what the bottom line cost will be.  You would be surprised to see how much academic money is given when the athletic money doesn't meet your expectations.  This works best where the coach really wants son to play for him.  My nephew plays college basketball at a private university.  A financial offer was presented to nephew, didn't meet their expectation since would still cost too much.  Talks went on for a few months, each time university found more money.  At the end of the day, final offer was something like $29K more than original offer.  If they really want your kid, there will be a way.  Good luck

I'm sorry, but the bold is simply not true for schools that also use the CSS.  Yes, you have to fill out the FAFSA for all schools, but most private/HA also require, and use, the CSS.

If you use a FAFSA and CSS calculator for a given school, you will notice different aide, especially if you have home equity.

CTbballDad, I stand corrected, thanks.  I didn't have to deal with CSS with my son, no idea about nephew.

It's really complicated and it does vary by school, even the CSS PROFILE schools. By way of example, here are varying approaches to equity in the primary residence: (http://www.thecollegesolution....nancial-aid-chances/)

Schools that Ignore Home Equity

As you’ll see from the list, some PROFILE schools don’t consider home equity at all, which is obviously the best scenario. Institutions in this smallest category include:

• Bard College
• California Institute of Technology
• Cooper Union
• DePauw University
• George Washington University
• Hamilton College
• Harvard University
• Massachusetts Institute of Technology
• Princeton University
• University of Chicago
• University of Virginia
• Ursinus College
• Whitman College

Schools That Hit Home Equity Hard

On the other extreme, some schools use the full weight of parents’ home equity to help determine financial need, which can seriously hurt aid changes.  Here are some examples:

• American University
• Babson College
• Bentley College
• Boston College
• Emory University
• Holy Cross College
• Lehigh University
• Loyola University Maryland
• Northeastern University
• Sarah Lawrence College
• Tulane University

Some schools that take this draconian approach will consider parent appeals, but how many families even know this is a possibility? In fact, parents typically won’t even know why their aid packages seems so paltry.

It’s highly unlikely that parents are going to trace a poor award back to their home equity. But now everyone reading this knows this is a possibility and can appeal.

Schools That Limit Home Equity Hit

Other institutions use a home-equity cap that’s tied to the family income so it’s less likely that someone who is house rich, but cash poor will be penalized. The home-equity caps below range from 1% to 4%, which is a huge span.

Here are a few schools in this category:

• Amherst College (1.2x)
• Barnard College (1.2x)
• Bucknell Univesity (2x)
• Cornell University (1.2x)
• Dartmouth College (1.2x)
• Emerson College (3x)
• Haverford College (1.2x)
• Kenyon College (4x)
• Lewis and Clark College (2x)
• Rice University (2x)
• Tufts University (2x)
• University of Rochester (3x)
• Vanderbilt University (2.4x)
• Wake Forest University (2x)
• Washington University, St. Louis (2.2x)

When these charts reference "Gross Family Income" are they talking about "Total Income" (line 22 on a 1040) or "Adjusted Gross Income" (line 37 on a 1040)?  There can be a big difference in these numbers.  Thanks!

2020Hopeful posted:

So last night at dinner out with some friends this topic came up.  Some insisted that, even where their "official" financial aid estimators say zero aid, Ivy schools (and others with large endowments) can and often do adjust their "need-based" parameters so that they can offer money to athletes.  That's not the sense I'm getting from reading many of the threads here, but wondered if anyone has knowledge of this?

Not an athlete, but with my oldest (senior at Davidson), we were told that we were getting -0- which was expected.  In April, they offered money, about 25% of total estimated cost.  She had already decided Davidson, however this would not have altered her decision.  Edit:  Princeton

b i g m a c posted:

I detect a whiff of "this isn't fair" in this discussion of upper-middle class folks having to pay full retail for top academic schools.  If you don't qualify for the financial aid, congrats, you are doing well.  If you don't want to pay full retail to go to that top school, focus elsewhere.

In all honesty, there is a "whiff" of unfairness from my perspective because, although I applaud these elite institutions for offering full scholarships to applicants in certain income brackets, their cutoffs seem to leave a huge segment of our population with zero aid that can't realistically afford to pay full price.   

In any event, I am not dwelling on that.  The main reason for my post was to gather information from those who have been through it or who are more educated than me about the process as to whether this is really how it is or if there is something I am missing or ways that people have approached this process that have worked.  I am learning a lot with many of your comments, so thank you for that!

Talk to a good tax attorney ... but it is my understanding that a family trust is not considered an asset in any of the financial applications.  Max out the equity in your house with a home equity line of credit - deposit that money into the trust.

Do the same with securities and any savings.

You get into a lower tax bracket as the int on the LOC may be deductable.  

Buy a car - with a loan.

Now all you have on the financial forms is your annual income.  Which - because of the LOC - now supports the mortgage - your car payments etc...  

Now on paper - you look like you have need - no assets.  There are so many loopholes in the tax code - if you know where to look.

b i g m a c posted:

I detect a whiff of "this isn't fair" in this discussion of upper-middle class folks having to pay full retail for top academic schools.  If you don't qualify for the financial aid, congrats, you are doing well.  If you don't want to pay full retail to go to that top school, focus elsewhere.

Sure, if you live below your means your entire life so you can contribute to your child's 529 and also make investments for a better life, you pay full retail.  Alternatively, friends and co-workers with the same income spend on RVs, vacations, and you name it and save nothing for college and little for anything else, and they get hefty award packages.  You bet there's a strong stench of unfairness in this system.

Smitty28, that is what we did.  And, we decided to pay high academic/baseball 100% retail.  Sure, some folks might game the system to their advantage and spend big and save little.  We decided to do live our lives differently.  But, no, I still do not think it is big-picture unfair or worthy of complaining for those of us fortunate to be in the upper-middle class and making the call to pay full freight.  But, I leave room for the possibility I might be wrong.

An undergraduate degree does not seem to carry the same prestige or provide the same return on investment as it did when many of us attended college.  I think that makes it all the more important not to break the bank or incur student debt for undergrad, to the extent possible.  In light of that, I am trying to have my son focus on schools where he is in the top 25% of applicants, and therefore will receive considerable merit aid.  Now, will that work who knows LOL!!  But just want to make the point to please have your son keep an open mind - there are many many truly excellent schools where they can flourish without having to pay full freight.  Maybe not Ivy or NESCAC, but still great institutions with lots to offer.  And we know from experience that young people, if they truly give it a chance and work at it, they will end of loving their "second" or lower tier choice.

Apologize in advance for a long post. 

Financial Aid (FA) calculators only provide the most general answers; at Ivy schools individual situations can make similar figures result in big FA differences.

I'll focus on Princeton (S [g. 2014] was a recruited baseball player, D was a regular admit [g. 2017]), with some side info on Yale, Harvard, USC, Vandy, Duke, Miami, Penn, Dartmouth.

First, the basic information on P's FA really only applies to families with pure W-2 income and savings (bank, stock accounts). For the self-employed or benificiaries of a trust, the calculators don't work well. 

Second, absolutely FA grants can be improved - especially for the self-employed by aggressive financial planning while S is in 10th grade (or earlier). We are self-employed and knew our business needed capital investment - the issue was when and over what period. We did it all while S was in 10th grade; that reduced our income considerably for the tax year used to calculate FA. (S received baseball offers from Yale, Harvard, and Princeton.  Each came up with different numbers based on the same return. Yale came in at 9k, P at 32k, Harvard said they'd match anyone. Yale applied a cash flow analysis, while P seemed to stick more closely to the tax return. Ivy schools are permitted to adjust FA offers to match its peers.) BTW,  both kids - while they overlapped - got identical FA. Once S graduated, and our earlier aggressive financial planning had run its course, we were full pay. Very, very painful for 2 years. Very, very nice for 4 years.

Moral here: plan well in advance; recognizing you will be squeezed like a lemon anyway.

Third, P increases FA if you are paying tuition for kids in private HS or college. (Also if you are paying for aged parents, health expenses or anything real but which doesn't directly appear on the FA app.)

Fourth, there is some degree of fudge when you are placing values on non-fungible assets - like real estate. For example, we own the building which housed our business. The value we used for our real estate assets was the price we could get in a quick sale (less the commission); this was considerably less then a Fair Market Value sale. Now, you can't lowball too much because Zillow will not support your number; but there is a pretty broad range and you should choose the low end of the range. 

Fifth, I disagee strongly with the broad conclusion that a Princeton degree isnt worth the extra money. (If my kid was going to teach middle school, I agree. Moreover, if my kid was heading to medical school Id send him to a school where he could finish in  the top 10% - because many grad schools base admissions on class rank and scores. Only the rarest player at P will do that.)  My S - middle of the class econ major - working as a consultant (whatever that is) for an international firm gets paid more than his fellow consultants who finished top 10% - based solely on his school. My D - above middle Chem. Engineer with a finance "minor" - had no trouble getting multiple offers in Investment Banking; her work peers from great state flagships all finished near the top of their respective classes. So, for many careers not requiring graduate degrees, a Princeton degree has a great Return on Investment.

Sixth, my understanding is that families are expected to pay 5% on assets, salary, dividends over 300k. Primary residence and NORMAL retirement accumulations are exempt.

Turning to FA from other schools. No insult intended, but you need to drop down pretty far on the food chain to get huge discounts on college. D (the regular applicant) had 34 ACT, straight As in the most rigorous curriculum, 8 5s on AP tests, ran the HS division of the local food bank for 2 years, editor in chief of yearbook and literary journal for 2 years (both award winning), first place grand prize award winner of the Intel Science and Engineering fair, varsity athlete, and owner of her patent. She got NO academic money and NO FA offer from USC, Vandy, or Duke. Got 25k with a chance of full at Miami. Got NO FA offer from Dartmouth or Penn. She could have attended San Diego State for virtually nothing.

So, lets assume your S gets a 25k academic scholarship AND he's playing baseball (on another 25%). The athletic scholly carries with it the implied condition he contribute. If coach feels hes not carrying his weight it's gone (now, if hes in a conference with 4 year guarantees, he's gone from the team in an attempt to get him to transfer). The academic scholly requires certain benchmark grades. What happens to the kid who takes a legit hard major? Most likely drops his major to one where he can make grades. Not a good result for the next 40 years. (The kid in FA loses it if he flunks out or parents finances improve; nothing depends upon baseball or grades.)

For most kids, graduating Princeton is a golden ticket. Won't matter if a kid wants to work as a barista; matters alot if he wants to play baseball and become an analyst at JP Morgan. (My S's baseball class had guys going to JP, Bain, McKinsey, milb, Bank of America and med school [the true walkon]. No unemployed, no boomerangs.)

We're upper middle class with both parents undergrad from State U. We weren't going to pay for grad school and we weren't really hoping either would move home while they accumulated job experience or money. To us, Princeton fit those requirements. (Note what I dont say: imo, the education Princeton provided my kids isn't better then my alma matter gave me; but the opportunities, network, and peer students were better. If I had to do it all again, I'd do it in a minute.)

I can readily understand not wanting to reduce a family's life style and/or putting off retirement. There is no easy answer. (We tell our kids we spent some of our retirement on Princeton and when we run out a few years early, they take in their mother and set dad on an ice flow.)

PM me if you want to talk more.

I was a recruited Ivy athlete about 35 years ago.  Obviously a lot has changed, but a couple of points are probably worth noting.

• I applied to a number of Ivies, even some I had no interest in.  I got into them all, and one of them offered me a much better aid package than the others.  We were able to leverage this into a better package at my first choice.  I believe that you can still do this.
• I do believe that Ivies (and other elite schools) are worth the investment, even at full cost.  One simple reason is that kids are shaped by their peers, and their peers will be brilliant.  Just about every student they encounter will be breathtakingly talented (with the exception of some of the legacies).  It is hard to put a price tag on this type of personal growth.
• On a more practical note, there is a chance that an elite degree will allow someone going into business to get onto a path that fast tracks him/her so that an advanced degree is not needed.  I know that this is true at top financial firms, and I assume it is elsewhere. 

That said, some of the most successful people I know did not get into their elite first choice.  In some cases I think that kids who go to a top school can think that they have it made and coast; and kids who are dealt what seems like a setback gain motivation that lasts a lifetime. 

Also what kind of career goals does he have? Many millennial kids do want to do a good job and they want a good salary but they prefer work life balance over working 60 hours a week and making it to the very top.

That doesn't mean they are lazy, if you want to do a good major and do a good job for 35-40  hours ultimately making 60-70K instead of working 60 hours,becoming a top manager and making 200k.

If he has really lofty career goals then the ivy definitely would pay off but if he is more motivated but work life balance matters more a major at a solid above average school would work fine.

 "[T]hey want a good salary but they prefer work life balance over working 60 hours a week and making it to the very top."

I'm in the fall season of life and agree 100% about finding the right work/life balance.

But, I also believe life - especially early in the "adulting" portion of life - is also about not burning career options. One way of not burning those options is showing the "boss" you are the hardest worker he's ever seen - arriving early, leaving late, producing quality work, communicating clearly in writing and orally. Hard, efficient workers get promoted - as you climb the ladder you can take your foot off the gas.

A person can always find a less imtense job, but once in that better balanced job, you have real trouble moving back up the chain. (Money in a vacuum is meaningless; but it is a lubricant for life.) Both mom and dad started in a "big grind" career; it allowed us to accumulate enough to begin a business where we controlled our time and owned our lives. We want out kids to own their own lives - the earlier the better and figured that Princeton would at least give them that option.

In many ways, those first years in a big law firm or at an IB outfit is a crucible. The long grueling hours really last only through the first 2 - 5 years; and those hours weed out many (D views it as getting a Masters and it requires that intense effort over that period of time.) Subsequent prospective employers also pay up for that "training" period.

Comparing S to D, S's first job experience (milb) gave him time to figure out he did not want a 70+ hr job. So he "sacrificed" salary for time; when he travels on business he works 4 days a week (generally staying an extra day to play the local signature golf course) and works "traditional" hours when not traveling. Just beginning his third year, he earns a bit less then D earned in her first year. But, his salary greatly exceeds his former baseball buds who graduated with business or econ degrees - because of his alma mater.

(For those interested, D is a typical IB analyst. A "light" week is 60 hours and represents about 25% of her time; a "typical" week is 70 - 75 hours (50% of the time) and a heavy week is 80+ (14 hr days, 7 days a week). A pace I certainly couldn't do, but a young ambitious person can. She is inundated with headhunters on a daily basis - she can ease up whenever she chooses in the next job; but, she has proved her capacity to give her employer whatever is needed.)

It is also difficult to project what a HS kid will want to do as an adult. A kid from Princeton can really choose from a huge, diverse menu of prospective careers and employers - even if in the middle of the class. Most other schools don't really provide that option.

Thank you, goose egg! That was a PhD level post on Ivy League FA and the value of an Ivy League education.

First of all, Goosegg, thank you for your excellent and incredibly helpful information!  And K9, I really appreciate your personal perspective and you made some great points.   My big takeaway is that we have a lot of planning to do (financial and otherwise) and many hoops yet to go through, but crossing the Ivy schools off the list now purely based on the sticker price would not be prudent.  Unless my son's interest level in those schools changes before then, I think we'll go ahead with our January trip.

In terms of what my son's career goals are, that is as clear as mud at this point.  He is very strong in the sciences and math and loves biology, so I would not be surprised if he did something down that path (of course, I know from following this board that STEM degrees are tough for athletes).  As I am sure is the case with many of your kids, he has quite a full plate now with AP classes at school, after school workouts 4 days a week, volunteer hours a few days a week, helping drive his younger sister to her activities several days a week, traveling to fall showcases/camps for baseball, and occasionally finding time to hang out with his friends.  And this is his quiet season--once basketball starts in Nov along with off season training for his summer baseball team, his entire days will be full.  All of that to say that he is used to balancing a lot and I think he thrives on it.  So, while he doesn't quite know yet what field he wants to pursue, I think he is the type of kid that will push himself to reach very high career goals in whatever field he ends up in and will be willing to put in the work to get there.

Personally, I am with Goosegg in that I am at the stage of my life where work/life balance is a priority.  But, I did not start out that way and I earned the privilege of now being able to set my hours and slow down.  I may yet have some runway to ramp back up once both my kids are out of the house, but I may be too used to my current pace by then!