JUCO vs. 4-year program

JUCO
Pro - You are just competeing with other Freshmen, Sophomores, and possibly red-shirt Sophomores for a position vs Freshmen-Seniors.

Con - You can be caught off gaurd in the spring with 4 year school players (Freshman, Sophomores, or redshirts with eligibility) coming back to a JUCO looking for playing time or another JUCO transferring from some other JUCO that they did not like.

I have stated that I will at the end of season write a review of junior college ball after my son completes his first season.

Pros of Juco:inexpensive,Get GE units done,small class sizes(which for some freshmen is a good thing)
For some students can get their academics in order if they were not before
can get bigger, stronger, faster and develop their baseball skills
Do get more chance to play right away
There are a lot of very good players playing at junior colleges many d1 guys that maybe got missed, or grade issues

Cons:As mentioned recruiting starts over(but the JC coach usually handles a lot of this if he is good)
Some kids are not good students and are only there for baseball
friendships made have to change year to year with guys coming and going
There are a lot of D1 kickbacks that you might not know about initially(I would want to be heavily recruited at a good JC program,)
Academics arent watched over as well as the D1 programs (see counselors, keep it in check)

You guys missed a few things...

JUCOS - kids go to school only to play baseball, and go to class only because they have to..

D1s - (some) kids go to school only to play baseball

JUCOS - lots of games and easy to get to

quote:

JUCOS - lots of games and easy to get to

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you forgot one HUGE thing

juco= JUICE CO... no drug testing policy, kids are roided up more than canseco in some leagues. its rediculous, i know i play and know tonnnnns of kids who did it.

DI kids are mainly on growth hormone, take your choice of opponents you wana face...

I dont think the above statements speak for the majority. Maybe I am naieve, but I know a lot of good honest kids playing at all levels.

Based upon what I have heard steriod use isn't much different from JCs to D1s. However, the highest incidence of use appears to be the summer leagues.....

quote:

JUCOS - kids go to school only to play baseball, and go to class only because they have to..

D1s - (some) kids go to school only to play baseball

I think that's a rather unfounded blanket statement. Juco academics have a bad reputation but i think it's for the wrong reasons. Juco's offer the same core classes that Division I schools do. Will the workload be greater at a Division I school? Probably. But the material remains the same. Where kids run into problems is that they don't have the academic foundation that is available at a Division I school. Guys sign up for the classes that they want to at a junior college. At a division I school you have academic advisors that work strictly with the athletes ensuring that they're staying on their graduation path.

I think that pretty much every junior college offers a curriculum that could equal the classes that you would take your first 2 years at a Division I school. The problem is that guys don't sign up for them. Instead of knocking out 3 or 4 semesters to finish their foreign language requirements they take classes that are electives and probably won't transfer. That's where guys run into problems with the 20/40/60 rule. If you're taking weightlifting, baking, and the history of baseball then you're wasting your time. The guys that have an understanding of what they're doing and take real classes have no problems when they get out. It's always the electives that won't transfer over.

There are numerous junior college players who are there for reasons other than the fact that they didn't have the grades. Some guys are there cause they weren't ready to play at the Division I level. There are still academic requirements that have to be met in order to be eligible at a junior college. You can't just waltz in there with a D average and expect to be eligible. I don't know exactly what the standards are but they exist.

Saying that all junior college kids are there to play baseball only is crazy. Are there guys like that? Sure there are. But there are equally as many guys that take their academics seriously. We signed a kid out of a juco in Kansas that was a 4.0 student. He'll graduate this year, with it being his true senior year as a double major. We had 3 juco transfers on our team alone that were academic all conference.

quote:

Where kids run into problems is that they don't have the academic foundation that is available at a Division I school. Guys sign up for the classes that they want to at a junior college. At a division I school you have academic advisors that work strictly with the athletes ensuring that they're staying on their graduation path.

That is essentially the problem.The coaches tell them to see counselors.He gives them lists of what they need to take.My son is a qualifer, so only needs 48 units.He has not had a cruz class.In order to get out of there with 48 he has to take all solids.If the kids would see the counselors like asked to there would not be problem. Your right , a lot sign up for units that mean nothing.I do agree that academic support isnt as good at JC.We have a pretty strict policy for our son.If he doesnt live up to it, there will be consequences.He is there to get his gen ed. done and develop as a player.He has seen a counselor each semester and then we sit down and go over his classes.
Too many parents just let the kids sign up for whatever, there are some guys my son plays with that lost chances at 4 years due to this and are now taking 18 units a semester to make up for it.

that's very commendable of you to hold your son accountable. He will appreciate immensely when he takes the next step!

Its a tough situation,they begin to get new freedoms and sometimes they have to learn the hard way.We will see how it all works itself out.It would be nice to have coaches and advisors holding them accountable.

I have very limited experience with regards to college baseball but here are my observations of the Juco my son plays at; the head coach is a guidance counseler and requires all in coming freshman to take a 1 unit class with him that specifally focuses on what it takes acedemically to transfer to a four year colege, many 20 inning games in the fall allow all players to get playing time and every game has 3-5 four year college recruiters and 3-5 pro scouts present.

Pro - Opportunity to start in key position and play right away.
Pro - Low or no cost
Pro - Close to home to see games (I have seen 2 this week)
Pro - Draft Eligiblility
Pro - Core Classes out of way and will transfer (Coach has pride in his program's GPA and trys to maintain the highest GPA of all JUCO's in our region, with real classes, not ellectives, you are cut if you miss a test for example)
Pro - In Florida the competition is pretty good, although the pitching depth may be shallower and not at the level of top D-1's.
Pro - Lots of Games and Lots of exposure
Pro - No limitations on Coach involvement during fall like D-1's

Con - the need to transfer after 2 years and find a new home if not drafted.

floridafan.

good list.sounds like the coach is really on top of the academics, that is a huge PRO.

Once again it depends on the coach as to how serious the kids are about going to class. I know of one coach who as a zero tolerance for NOT going to class. He is very popular with the Profs and the parents.
As a matter of fact this same school does have a drug testing policy. Do not paint all jucos with the same broad brush.
This school also only has 28 on their roster because they choose to let all kids get a chance to be on the field if possible sometime during the fall and spring season.

Thank you dannymac_18 and others for expressing my sentiments exactly! I get soooooo tired of people assuming that every JUCO player is there simply because a) he wasn't good enough to play D1 baseball or b) he wasn't smart enough to attend a D1. I have compared my son's curriculum to his brother's D1 curriculum and they are right in line with each other.

This is a wonderful thread. Thank you for starting it Infield08.

Funny story...Son was in his class and finnished up his work early and had a project coming due in another class. He asked the professor if he could have permission to leave early which was granted. Shortly after leaving the Trainer came to his class to bring him in for a drug test. At practice the coach stated that my guy owed him 100 laps for missing class. My guy did not think it appropriate to make any excuse and proceeded to run. He completed 25 laps that afternoon. The following practice someone must have told the coach that he had permission to leave class early. Coach could not believe it and said something along the lines of "you jerk, why didn't you say something?!" I think he gained the admiration of the coach and his team mates that day.

So at some JUCO's the coaches do care about academics, they do care about discipline, and they do test for drugs and steroids.

And yes, I did enjoy the game today which was about an hour away from home.

quote:

Do not paint all jucos with the same broad brush.

I do not understand what your referring to.

haha jucos "test" for drugs and steriods... but these tests never take place for anyone? they dont actually do it, i know hundreds of juco players not 1 ever tested

Well I personally know of 1.

It's a matter of geography. I've witnessed first hand juco programs in Florida as well as juco programs in the new york, new jersey, and pennsylvania. The commitment level by the administrations is light years apart. The Florida junior college system puts much more emphasis on their athletic programs. That's probably what accounts for the differences in testing philosophies. Do guys still take them in Florida? Absolutely. But the likeliness of being tested is much greater down there as opposed to programs in the northeast whose administration "goes through the motions" with their athletic programs. Much different story in Florida.

thats a good point, ive been in the carolina and the issue is completely ignored due to i guess budget concerns so the coaches pretendthere is no problem

Fan, I'll be anxiously awaiting your report on your son's first year at JUCO. Many kids cannot afford the higher cost of D1,2,or 3 institutions. JUCO allows them to get basics out of the way first. If the kid is good enough when through with JUCO, a good program will pick them up.

But for some of us, the part about being close to home doesn't ring true.

Can't wait for son's last year, plan on being at every game.

About 35 more games to go! I will let you know when it is over. So far so good...

quote:

Originally posted by dannymac_18:
It's a matter of geography. I've witnessed first hand juco programs in Florida as well as juco programs in the new york, new jersey, and pennsylvania. The commitment level by the administrations is light years apart. The Florida junior college system puts much more emphasis on their athletic programs. That's probably what accounts for the differences in testing philosophies. Do guys still take them in Florida? Absolutely. But the likeliness of being tested is much greater down there as opposed to programs in the northeast whose administration "goes through the motions" with their athletic programs. Much different story in Florida.

I would suppose that because many players here in FLorida get drafted directly out of JUCO or head to D1 schools, they have to make sure the kids they pass on are clean. If not, no one would touch these kids.

This weekend, I learned that there's a huge difference between most D1 JUCO's and at least some D3 JUCO's (which give no scholarships). The D1 JUCO's in Texas seem to be fairly to extremely competitive and most do a pretty decent job overseeing the players' academics -- although I know of a few that have poor graduation rates.

Contrast that with a D3 JUCO near by son's 4-year college. My son is friends with a player there and we were shocked all fall when he would tell his coach that he was going home for the weekend and his coach was okay with him missing Saturday practices. We were also shocked to learn that he made 2 D's and 2 F's in the fall. Obviously, not a lot of academic oversight at that school.

On Friday night, we took this young man out to dinner, along with our own son. We asked how things were going and he shared that academics are going better because he's going to classes "more often." I asked what that meant and he explained that even with 2 alarm clocks, he sometimes sleeps through all of his classes. Obviously, the coach doesn't have requirements for class attendance. Regarding baseball, he said the coach is really laid back and "doesn't push us to get better." He said that sometimes, the coach wants to leave practice before the players do.

Despite the fact that the team has been playing since Jan. 30, the online roster still dates to spring 2008.

That is one college program I would never want my son to play for.

This has nothing to do with coaches. But at a Ca. JC,you do not have to pass your freshmen classes,as long as you are enrolled in 12 units, NOW at the Spring of their sophmore season, they have to have 24 units completed.So if do not pass have to take summer school, or 15-18 or whatever units to be elgible.
So who makes those rules? That is a disservice to the players in my mind.Its like give them enough rope and they will hang themselves.To me if you fail, you should not play,but, you are elgible as a freshmen.
I am pretty sure a D will give you credit at JC, BUT the untis are not transferrable at a 4 year so wasted units anyway.
So sort of a double language with that whole situation.

The rope is present at every level.

It doesn't matter if the students is at a D1, Juco or whatever, only the student can be responsible for attending, passing classes and progressing towards a degree or transfer.

Many times student's ignore (or "doesn't hear") the coaches/professer's advice but still manages to pass his problem off as someone else's fault. My daughter is very good at this.

But can you play at a D1 if you fail your classes as a freshmen? I do not know the answer, but think no.

Players know the rules or at least they should, going in. You play by the rules you are given. Why do so many people want to change longstanding rules ?

When you play poker you play with the cards you are dealt do you not ???

By the way if you think you or any group can get the NCAA to change their rules and thinking, you better think again and don't waste your time

I am not asking to change rules. I stated that you do not have to pass classes as a freshmen to be elgible to play in the spring at a Ca. JC,I said that is a long rope.Other poster said rope existed everywhere,so I asked can you not pass your classes as a freshmen at a D1 and still play in Spring.Looking for rule here.I would doubt that to be the case.

fanofgame,

I believe that a D1 freshman who qualified out of high school only need to have been enrolled full-time and to have received 6 hours of credit in the fall semester. Individual schools may have more stringent requirements.

Note however that the player needs to have 24 hours by the beginning of the fall of his second year, and to have met 90% of the GPA his school requires for graduation. If he only had 6 hours in the fall of his freshman year, it is going to be a very difficult task to become eligible his sophomore year.

It is important as a parent to visit the JUCO with your son. Ask questions and have your son prepare questions to ask the coach prior to visiting the school.

We have visited several schools and have been impressed with how involved the teachers and coach is with the kids grades and classes.

We visited one school where the kids lift at 6am then have a group breakfast afterwards. The coach told me they make the kids attend breakfast as a group to make sure afterwards they are headed to class and not back to bed.

The key is to do your research and talk to as many people at the school, kids on the team and coaches.

3FingeredGlove,

Thank you that was exactly what I wanted to know. So it is the same. yes it would be hard to qualify if you did not take care of business. My son was a qualifier out of HS, had a 3.5 first semester at JC with 14 academic units plus 4 PE weigh lifting. He has 12 units core this semester plus baseball.
A lot of kids get lost in the shuffle at college with baseball. Its not as easy as people think.

Wow - didn't mean to start a forest fire by my comments which were supposed to be amusing...

Simply put, JC players dream of playing in the pros, and some may have a direct shot sooner than at a D1. In other words, they are there to play BASEBALL with the classes as an afterthought. Many of these kids started out at D1's, and were qualifiers out of high school but chose the JC route as the quickest way to get to their destination. The competition is absolutely first rate in Ca.

Top JC's are a terrific deal from a coaching standpoint, have great recruiting contacts, play against first-rate competition, and are winning programs, while having the advantage of having games close to home, and low cost for kids to get necessary units.

The roids question is obviously an issue at every level of baseball, but is no more prevalent at JC's than anywhere else.

fanofgame,

California JCs and D1 treat the 24 hour rule slightly differently. For the JC: "The 24-semester/36-quarter unit count begins with and includes the units taken during the first semester/quarter of competition for that sport and must be successfully completed prior to the beginning of the semester/quarter of the second season of sport."
The cumulative GPA requirement also starts in the term of first competition.

So the JC player can bomb during his first semester, and it really won't affect his JC eligibility. If he transfers to a 4 year college, a bad first term is then going to cause problems.

On the other hand, a D1 player has to have 24 hours by the start of the fall semester--at least one semester earlier than a JC player.

thanks for the clarification.I thought it had to be different with D1.

I was surprised at the number of redshirts in JUCO. My son plays with guys who are 20-23 years old who came in, redshirted, and are playing as sophomores hardly needing to go to class as they have already had two full years of education. It looks like most of the freshmen will be redshirted again, fortunately mine is not so he can save his redshirt year for the future and when his two years of school and baseball are up, not have to tread water for a year of additional playing.

Yes smalltown the number of redshirts are amazing.Very few true freshmen playing.yes it is good to save redshirt year.