Old Roscoe was clocked at 137 mph. Used an aluminum racket. Completely shattered Bjorn Borg's wood racket in Wimbledon one time. Borg went to return one of those 130+ mph serves and all he had left was what looked like a crumpled mess of string and twigs at the end of the handle. Borg just shook his head & laughed...
quote:Originally posted by Scorekeeper:
I agree that the best approach probably is the hit ‘em in the pocketbook, but using this other approach doesn’t preclude that one from being used too. In fact, it seems to me that the more parents and coaches who actually get to see the facts, the more quickly they’d push for more wood bat options.
Scorekeeper,
In addition to the rest of your post - which IMO was excellent - I think this quote is both relevant and tactically intelligent.
Excellent food for thought - and hopefully action as well.
CoachMay and Beast,
Just another individual experience - but I bought my youngest son 5 wood bats over the course of this past summer and fall - total cost with shipping was approx. $210
I bought my eldest 4 wood bats for the summer (none for the spring - team supplied them) - total cost of about $185.
I think in each case - it cost me less than 1 aluminum bat for each son.
Just another individual experience - but I bought my youngest son 5 wood bats over the course of this past summer and fall - total cost with shipping was approx. $210
I bought my eldest 4 wood bats for the summer (none for the spring - team supplied them) - total cost of about $185.
I think in each case - it cost me less than 1 aluminum bat for each son.
I like scorekeeper's approach that the pitcher's may be at risk due to pitching against wood bats as opposed to being hit by batted balls.
I believe the difference may not be an overuse issue but may be a breaking ball issue. The curveball and the age at which you throw it seem to be the bane of pitcher's injuries. Based on my limited experience, I notice that more curveballs and sliders are thrown in aluminum games than wood games. A running two seamer is much more effective against wood than aluminum. Further, the inside pitch is much more effective against wood than aluminum.
It may not be an issue of pitching less but pitchers are more likely to attack the strike zone with fastballs against wood than they are against aluminum.
I believe the difference may not be an overuse issue but may be a breaking ball issue. The curveball and the age at which you throw it seem to be the bane of pitcher's injuries. Based on my limited experience, I notice that more curveballs and sliders are thrown in aluminum games than wood games. A running two seamer is much more effective against wood than aluminum. Further, the inside pitch is much more effective against wood than aluminum.
It may not be an issue of pitching less but pitchers are more likely to attack the strike zone with fastballs against wood than they are against aluminum.
first line should be aluminum bats Sorry.
Was at son's summer showcase team practice the other night. Noticed all the baseball bags flung along the turf,..and started adding up the cost of each metal bat on the floor. Each bat conservatively cost $250.00. Most bags had multiple bats in them. 12 players x 2-3 bats each,....when added up,..thats a HECK of alot of money and thats just PART of the cost to play ball.
The sad part is those bats will probably be dead 1/2 way through the season!
CHA-CHIIIIING!!!!$$$$$$$$$$
After exploring all of the items inside sons bag,..not counting his cell phone and Ipod,...I realized the only thing missing was my luxurious trip to Tahiti! NO wonder the tourist industry is hurting,...we're all buying baseball equipment instead! HA!
The sad part is those bats will probably be dead 1/2 way through the season!
CHA-CHIIIIING!!!!$$$$$$$$$$
After exploring all of the items inside sons bag,..not counting his cell phone and Ipod,...I realized the only thing missing was my luxurious trip to Tahiti! NO wonder the tourist industry is hurting,...we're all buying baseball equipment instead! HA!
In the words of George W. Bush:
It doesn't take a Rocket Surgeon to figure out what's going on here.
It doesn't take a Rocket Surgeon to figure out what's going on here.
deldad,
That makes sense! Yet another good point.
That makes sense! Yet another good point.
trojan-skipper,
He didn't really say that... Did He!
He didn't really say that... Did He!
PG It would not shock me if he did!!!!
He didn't say Rocket Surgeon!
He said " Pocket Sturgeon "??
EH
He said " Pocket Sturgeon "??
EH
quote:Originally posted by deldad:
I believe the difference may not be an overuse issue but may be a breaking ball issue. The curveball and the age at which you throw it seem to be the bane of pitcher's injuries. Based on my limited experience, I notice that more curveballs and sliders are thrown in aluminum games than wood games. A running two seamer is much more effective against wood than aluminum. Further, the inside pitch is much more effective against wood than aluminum.
I seriously doubt many people knowing much about the game really believe the breaking ball issue isn’t another valid safety issue. Even those staunch supporters of the ol’ hook almost all admit, that even though the breaking ball itself isn’t a dangerous thing, improper technique and use most definitely is.
quote:Originally posted by deldad:It may not be an issue of pitching less but pitchers are more likely to attack the strike zone with fastballs against wood than they are against aluminum.
Sounds perfectly valid to me, but again, it doesn’t matter, and that’s the great thing! There would be less pitching, and less pitching means less danger.
Just about any way someone wants to consider pitcher safety as being an issue, reducing the time they’re out there means its more safe. Win/Win.
For you Coaches out there: Do you call more breaking balls when facing aluminum and more fast balls versus wood?
This press release was in response to New York, New Jersey and Montana's pending legislation banning metal bats from competition.
In Montana, we met resistance in 2005 like James Oddo did in New York in 2003.
All three bills are to be reviewed and voted within the next few months. That is why you will see and hear the Baseball Organizations cry "Foul Ball" with each bill.
Check out our website dedicated to Brandon Patch who was killed in 2003 by a ball hit from an aluminum bat.
www.forever11.com
Thanks!
Jack Carlson
Brandon's Uncle
In Montana, we met resistance in 2005 like James Oddo did in New York in 2003.
All three bills are to be reviewed and voted within the next few months. That is why you will see and hear the Baseball Organizations cry "Foul Ball" with each bill.
Check out our website dedicated to Brandon Patch who was killed in 2003 by a ball hit from an aluminum bat.
www.forever11.com
Thanks!
Jack Carlson
Brandon's Uncle
Mr Carlson first off let me tell you how deeply sorry I am for the loss of your Nephew, and are prayers go out to you and the rest of Brandons family.
Sir I would like to welcome you to the HSBBW.
I think you will find that most people on this site would love to have only Wood bat leagues.
That is the way to stop it.
EH
Sir I would like to welcome you to the HSBBW.
I think you will find that most people on this site would love to have only Wood bat leagues.
That is the way to stop it.
EH
Dear Mr. Jack Carlson,
Your post can not go ignored.
To say that my heart goes out to you and all of your family seems very insignificant, but I assure you it is meant with the utmost sincerity.
Your story is heartbreaking. I admire your strenth and perseverance to get Brandons story out. It is a story that I feel should be heard by all.
With prayers, condolences, and awareness,
~ Shortstopmom & family ~
Your post can not go ignored.
To say that my heart goes out to you and all of your family seems very insignificant, but I assure you it is meant with the utmost sincerity.
Your story is heartbreaking. I admire your strenth and perseverance to get Brandons story out. It is a story that I feel should be heard by all.
With prayers, condolences, and awareness,
~ Shortstopmom & family ~
I saw the TV special on this incident. What more should it take? And Deldad you Im sure you already know the answer to that question. But YES you call alot more fb when playing with wood. You go after hitters alot more agressively as well. There are way fewer pitches thrown in wood bat games.
Jack Carlson:
My sympathies go out to you and yours. I noticed Brandon's birthdate is only 2 weeks from my oldest sons and he pitched in Legion ball too, and let's face it; any kid pitching is at risk... added risk due to the bats.
My high school team will have days where we take BP with only wood and there will rarely be a homerun, 3 at the most... on the other days there are 10 - 40 homeruns in a session... I don't need a scientific study... go to a wood bat tourney, you better be on time because your game will probably start early... Heck, with metal, it could be 12-9 at the end of two innings and both teams have a pretty decent guy (or 3) on the bump... 3 hour games and longer all the time...
My other issue with Little League Safety is the distances are way too crammed. 46 feet is insane. 60 feet... too close. 50 and 70 are good distances for 12 yr. olds...
Good luck to all trying to get rid of metal bats...
My sympathies go out to you and yours. I noticed Brandon's birthdate is only 2 weeks from my oldest sons and he pitched in Legion ball too, and let's face it; any kid pitching is at risk... added risk due to the bats.
My high school team will have days where we take BP with only wood and there will rarely be a homerun, 3 at the most... on the other days there are 10 - 40 homeruns in a session... I don't need a scientific study... go to a wood bat tourney, you better be on time because your game will probably start early... Heck, with metal, it could be 12-9 at the end of two innings and both teams have a pretty decent guy (or 3) on the bump... 3 hour games and longer all the time...
My other issue with Little League Safety is the distances are way too crammed. 46 feet is insane. 60 feet... too close. 50 and 70 are good distances for 12 yr. olds...
Good luck to all trying to get rid of metal bats...
quote:Originally posted by Texan:
A number of pages ago...
Well, this thread has certainly run the gamut...
All we need to do is work politics in and all the bases will have been covered.
quote:Originally posted by Scorekeeper:
Not so many pages ago...
How much success would we have had if we sent raw recruits against the Republican Guard?
OK OK I know it is a stretch.
This thread has really evolved and I must confess that I had put Scorekeeper onto my ignore list yesterday. Coming back to the thread today, I see that PG was spot on about the PM that he received from Scorekeeper. Scorekeeper returned with convincing logic that became clearer in subsequent posts.
I agree with the others who say that using the arguement based on the safety of pitchers' arms would be a tough sell, but it is all becoming clearer to me.
I really wanted to say thanks to Scorekeeper for hanging in there. I thought your early approach was abrasive but a corner was turned and your posts are enlightening. I sorta winced a bit when you were subsequently referred to as unfriendly. Earlier, I would have agreed, but my patience was rewarded.
Of course, nothing surpasses wood! Let the little ones use metal. But once it becomes more serious (meaning NOT rec ball) go with Mother Nature's finest.
Compared to most of you, my baseball experience is thin; however, as a trial attorney with a history of representing defendants, and now mostly plaintiffs (please stop heckling), I'd like to offer a little comment on the press release above.
If a youngster 7 to 18 years old gets seriously injured by a metal bat propelled baseball while he's pitching, or even on one of the corners, a lawsuit may follow. Please note, I said serious. No rational lawyer or parent would bring this kind of claim unless the child was facing some kind of longterm/lifelong condition or, God forbid, death. Why? Because it would be a difficult and potentially expensive case to bring.
A lawsuit could be based on either a product liability theory, against the bat manufacturer, or as a negligence claim against the league or organization that permits, or maybe even promotes, the use of the metal bat. Although the press release above doesn't provide the manufacturer much of a defense in a product liability context (the plaintiff would still need to show that the bat was not fit for its intended purpose or was unreasonably dangerous on a cost/benefit analysis, depending on varying state law), the press release does provide an almost perfect defense to the league and organization which allowed the bat's use. Negligence requires, in part, that they knew or should have known of a danger, and failed to remedy it. The leagues can rely, to a great extent, on the opinions of their national organizations and trade groups, which are now telling them unequivocally that there's no proof metal is riskier than wood. They now don't know that metal bats pose an increased risk.
If the legislation in New Jersey, and proposed legislation in several other states, was allowed to go unanswered, leagues in other states could be in trouble. Obviously, a baseball league in Iowa is not bound by legislation in New Jersey. But if enough states banned or restricted the use of metal bats, the league in Iowa would know, or should know, that several state legislatures have concluded that metal bats pose an unwarranted, increased danger to young players. The press release takes away the knowledge which could otherwise be imputed to the leagues. From a liability perspective, the "press release" was a great, preemptive move.
Cigarettes don't cause cancer.
The American public doesn't want airbags.
Wood bats are no safer than metal bats.
Sorry for the diatribe.
If a youngster 7 to 18 years old gets seriously injured by a metal bat propelled baseball while he's pitching, or even on one of the corners, a lawsuit may follow. Please note, I said serious. No rational lawyer or parent would bring this kind of claim unless the child was facing some kind of longterm/lifelong condition or, God forbid, death. Why? Because it would be a difficult and potentially expensive case to bring.
A lawsuit could be based on either a product liability theory, against the bat manufacturer, or as a negligence claim against the league or organization that permits, or maybe even promotes, the use of the metal bat. Although the press release above doesn't provide the manufacturer much of a defense in a product liability context (the plaintiff would still need to show that the bat was not fit for its intended purpose or was unreasonably dangerous on a cost/benefit analysis, depending on varying state law), the press release does provide an almost perfect defense to the league and organization which allowed the bat's use. Negligence requires, in part, that they knew or should have known of a danger, and failed to remedy it. The leagues can rely, to a great extent, on the opinions of their national organizations and trade groups, which are now telling them unequivocally that there's no proof metal is riskier than wood. They now don't know that metal bats pose an increased risk.
If the legislation in New Jersey, and proposed legislation in several other states, was allowed to go unanswered, leagues in other states could be in trouble. Obviously, a baseball league in Iowa is not bound by legislation in New Jersey. But if enough states banned or restricted the use of metal bats, the league in Iowa would know, or should know, that several state legislatures have concluded that metal bats pose an unwarranted, increased danger to young players. The press release takes away the knowledge which could otherwise be imputed to the leagues. From a liability perspective, the "press release" was a great, preemptive move.
Cigarettes don't cause cancer.
The American public doesn't want airbags.
Wood bats are no safer than metal bats.
Sorry for the diatribe.
2008 Beebe,
Very nice post that even us back-woods folk can understand.
Very nice post that even us back-woods folk can understand.