It's really all about the money.
"he fact of the matter is that the metal bat dudes got themselves firmly entrenched years and years ago - and now they are rich."
For $350 Little Johnny can hit the ball farther and better than he did yesterday. And there's always a Big Johnnie willing to support this theory. But Big Johnny won't let Little Johnny share his bat with his teammates because it's so expensive, so every Big Tom,Dick and Harry on the team has to go out and buy Little Tom , Dick and Harry even BETTER bats.
It's a racket and too many companies, people, etc. are lining their pockets for it to ever change.
quote:Originally posted by Scorekeeper:
I’m not for metal at all. I’m against a lynch mob mentality that wants to act just because they don’t like something.
I dont think you read the post close enough.
I am against the use of metal bats because the ball flies off the bat at unnatural speed and distorts the game.
I dont like that.
You can use whatever inflammatory words you want to argue for it or against it - and you can do the same in your description of people who take either side as well.
But here is a fact that is neither conjecture nor perception.
Regardless of what any self-interested metal bat manufacturer - or their representatives tell you - the ball comes off the bat faster than it does off a wood bat.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
Scorekeeper
The "angle" you speak of that can fly--is it obtuse . 45 degree or 90 degree--I am curious because I have never seen an "angle" fly
I'm sorry!
I thought I'd corrected it, but didn't notice there was a SUBMIT buttion.
THis will test to see if the changfes took.
quote:Originally posted by itsinthegame:
I dont think you read the post close enough.
I am against the use of metal bats because the ball flies off the bat at unnatural speed and distorts the game.
I dont like that.
You can use whatever inflammatory words you want to argue for it or against it - and you can do the same in your description of people who take either side as well.
But here is a fact that is neither conjecture nor perception.
Regardless of what any self-interested metal bat manufacturer - or their representatives tell you - the ball comes off the bat faster than it does off a wood bat.
What did I ever say that’s any different? I don’t like the way the game has gone with metal either! I’m not trying to be inflammatory at all. All I’m saying is, safety hasn’t been proven to be a good enough reason to do away with the darn things.
Does the ball come off of metal bats faster than wood? Not necessarily. Under the very precise conditions the tests are made, they don’t! But, since those very precise conditions are ridiculous in that they don’t cover a wide enough range of NORMAL playing conditions, the standard means little or nothing.
Now here’s a question for you. what have you done to try to stem the metal bat tide, other than to tell me I’m wrong for the way I think?
Have you refused to cave in and force you son to hit with nothing other than wood? I did! Unfortunately the HS coach said that if he only wanted to use wood, he wouldn’t get to bat in games. End of story.
Have you refused to allow your son to pitch? If I honestly believed my boy was in more than the normal danger expected for a pitcher, I would have refused my permission. That’s a parent’s job! If everyone did that rather than to just complain about it, it would change!
Maybe I should change my signature block to: Everybody wants to go to heaven, but no one wants to die!
I'm coming to this discussion a little late, just haven't gotten around to turning on the computer in a couple of days. One thing that caught my eye was the claim that ALL aluminum bats in use today are BESR certified. Does that include the Stealth and all the other super titanium mega dollar bats? I thought all bats that were BESR certified carried a marking to that effect, and I don't see it on these youth bats.
quote:Originally posted by Scorekeeper:
What did I ever say that’s any different? I don’t like the way the game has gone with metal either! I’m not trying to be inflammatory at all. All I’m saying is, safety hasn’t been proven to be a good enough reason to do away with the darn things.
Perhaps - from your perspective - that is the case. From my perspective - I do not need a scientist to prove exit ratios. All I need is my eyes.
Does the ball come off of metal bats faster than wood? Not necessarily.
I disagree. No rationalizations or hedging either. Just falt out disagree with you.
Now here’s a question for you. what have you done to try to stem the metal bat tide, other than to tell me I’m wrong for the way I think?
Actually - lots of things.
Heres a few.
Ive written to my congressman. Twice
Ive encouraged my eldest son to transfer to an all-wood bat collegiate conference (The GLVC - D-2)
I sought out - and with HiHardHeat's help - got my youngest son into a great program - that plays and practices almost exclusively with wood year round.
Since you are so full of questions - let me ask one - what have you done other than sit on both sides of the fence and infer that people who have an opinion are a lynch mob?
quote:Originally posted by rz1:
Tex, we are personally on the same page about everything, my heart says "all wood" because I'm old school. I'm throwing comments out in this thread without my "heart" involved. However, I don't only want the kids who "want to play", I also want to see the kids who learn to love the game involved and I think that by instilling the reasons we feel "are right" is not the way to go. Safety is a real issue, but not at the little diamond level. Why change something that is not broke for our idealistic reasons?
If a kid doesn't want to play baseball, I don't think he should be out there. Let him choose a sport of his own liking - as long as it isn't commie kickball.
Well, if we follow that don't fix it if it ain't broke line of reasoning then we never should have changed from wood to aluminum, eh?
SM - The only bats that are BESR certified are those -3 bats intended for HS & College use.
"Youth bats", "Senior League bats", -5's, etc. are NOT subject to BESR limitations.
BESR comes pretty close to having the ball come off the bat at the same exit velocity as a wood bat - UNDER THE TEST CONDITIONS. As some have pointed out, the test conditions involve slower speeds than would be seen in much of HS and all of college ball.
So it is possible that a manufacturer could tweak the design such as to meet the BESR requirements, but still have the ball come off faster than wood when the pitch is coming in at 85-90 mph.
Let's go back to an important point PG made. THERE ARE MORE HARD HITS UP THE MIDDLE WITH ALUMINUM THAN WOOD! I don't need to have a study with statistical analysis of actual hits in games to prove that to me. Regardless of whether or not the BESR requirements do or do not make the aluminum bat act just like wood in terms of exit velocity.
Why? Because the sweet spot is much bigger on the aluminum bat. Give everyone bats with smaller sweet spots, there WILL be fewer hard hits. Give everyone bats with bigger sweet spots there WILL be more hard hits. Pretty basic fact if you think through it just a bit.
Now, probability will tell us that if there are more hard hits in general, there will be a distribution as to where those hard hits travel on the field. And probability tells us that some of those extra hard shots will be back up the middle. Thus metal will result in more hard shots up the middle than wood.
There is logic and science behind PG's assertion.
And iig, to me it is refreshing to see someone questioning things and looking at both sides of the issue.
The bat companies do have a huge interest in keeping aluminum bats. Want to see bat companies line up for filing Chapter 11? Eliminate metal baseball bats. Not that I have anything against the bat companies, but I still would like to see wood and wood composite bats used.
"Youth bats", "Senior League bats", -5's, etc. are NOT subject to BESR limitations.
BESR comes pretty close to having the ball come off the bat at the same exit velocity as a wood bat - UNDER THE TEST CONDITIONS. As some have pointed out, the test conditions involve slower speeds than would be seen in much of HS and all of college ball.
So it is possible that a manufacturer could tweak the design such as to meet the BESR requirements, but still have the ball come off faster than wood when the pitch is coming in at 85-90 mph.
Let's go back to an important point PG made. THERE ARE MORE HARD HITS UP THE MIDDLE WITH ALUMINUM THAN WOOD! I don't need to have a study with statistical analysis of actual hits in games to prove that to me. Regardless of whether or not the BESR requirements do or do not make the aluminum bat act just like wood in terms of exit velocity.
Why? Because the sweet spot is much bigger on the aluminum bat. Give everyone bats with smaller sweet spots, there WILL be fewer hard hits. Give everyone bats with bigger sweet spots there WILL be more hard hits. Pretty basic fact if you think through it just a bit.
Now, probability will tell us that if there are more hard hits in general, there will be a distribution as to where those hard hits travel on the field. And probability tells us that some of those extra hard shots will be back up the middle. Thus metal will result in more hard shots up the middle than wood.
There is logic and science behind PG's assertion.
And iig, to me it is refreshing to see someone questioning things and looking at both sides of the issue.
The bat companies do have a huge interest in keeping aluminum bats. Want to see bat companies line up for filing Chapter 11? Eliminate metal baseball bats. Not that I have anything against the bat companies, but I still would like to see wood and wood composite bats used.
A few things here from an old man
01-- we played with wood bats as kids---wood bats held together with nails and tape--- I think kids at the LL level would benefit from the use of wood early on
02-- wood bats today break completely different that they used to---I never stood with the knob in my hand like they do now when the bat breaks.
03---at our events we play the games with aluminum and do BP with wood
04-- our travel team plays with wood as ofetn as is possible
05-- we use wood not because of safety concerns but because we believe it to be the "true game"
01-- we played with wood bats as kids---wood bats held together with nails and tape--- I think kids at the LL level would benefit from the use of wood early on
02-- wood bats today break completely different that they used to---I never stood with the knob in my hand like they do now when the bat breaks.
03---at our events we play the games with aluminum and do BP with wood
04-- our travel team plays with wood as ofetn as is possible
05-- we use wood not because of safety concerns but because we believe it to be the "true game"
quote:Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Perhaps - from your perspective - that is the case. From my perspective - I do not need a scientist to prove exit ratios. All I need is my eyes.
Great! If that’s your standard of proof, good on ya.
quote:Originally posted by itsinthegame:
I disagree. No rationalizations or hedging either. Just falt out disagree with you.
Good!
quote:Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Now here’s a question for you. what have you done to try to stem the metal bat tide, other than to tell me I’m wrong for the way I think?
Actually - lots of things.
Heres a few.
Ive written to my congressman. Twice
Ive encouraged my eldest son to transfer to an all-wood bat collegiate conference (The GLVC - D-2)
I sought out - and with HiHardHeat's help - got my youngest son into a great program - that plays and practices almost exclusively with wood year round.
Congratulations!
Is your son now safe?
quote:Originally posted by itsinthegame:Since you are so full of questions - let me ask one - what have you done other than sit on both sides of the fence and infer that people who have an opinion are a lynch mob?
Why do you say I’m sitting on both sides of the fence? How many times do I have to say I hate all non-wood bats! What twists your panties is, I don’t hate them because they’re unsafe!
Do you realize how foolish it is to attack an ally? If your goal is truly for baseball at all levels to go back to wood, why do you care what the reasons are for people to want to make that happen?
Sorry, you don’t want to win the war, you want to be right, and that’s really silly! I suppose if non-wood bats were outlawed tomorrow, and the reason given was something other than safety, you’d want them reinstated!
So, the answer to your question is, I’m not going to detail anything other than what I have already. The reason is, since you don’t seem to be interested in any reason other than safety being why someone opposes metal bats, all it would do is get you more angry with me, and I’m not willing to deal with that.
When a ball is struck on the sweet spot with wood I do believe it comes off just as hot as a metal bat. But the fact is you may see one or two balls struck like this in an entire wood bat game. With metal bats it is very often because the sweet spot is so much larger on a metal bat. In fact I have seen homeruns hit with metal bats off the handles. So what you get is instead of one or two smoked shots per game with wood you have numerous in a metal bat game. All you have to do is go to a wood bat tourney and see it for yourself. Then go to a HS game and see it for yourself. Metal bat games produce many more runs and many more hard hit balls. That is a fact! Personally I just dont like metal for the most part because they change the game. They allow hits when they should not be hits. They cheat the game. Safety is an issue as well for me.
quote:Originally posted by Texan:
There is logic and science behind PG's assertion.
I’ll accept all that without reservation.
Now all I need to know is, what’s an acceptable level of danger, and does using metal bats alone, bring the level above what’s acceptable?
There’s not doubt that for some that level has been reached, but for me, it hasn’t. Why? Because I haven’t had it proven to me what the acceptable level is, nor that its been reached.
quote:Originally posted by Texan: The bat companies do have a huge interest in keeping aluminum bats. Want to see bat companies line up for filing Chapter 11? Eliminate metal baseball bats. Not that I have anything against the bat companies, but I still would like to see wood and wood composite bats used.
Are you sure you’re from Texas? I find myself agreeing with you much more than most Texans I communicate with.
Indeed, the bat companies certainly do have a tremendous interest in this issue, but the big ones like LS have wood lines too, so I doubt they would really care one way or the other, assuming they could get their hands on enough wood to fill the need.
But, there are also some other folks who have a tremendous interest in it too. Look at the youth organizations who have used the additional pop the metal bats have to promote the larger field sizes for pre HS ages.
If all levels went to wood, the larger fields with the longer fence distances wouldn’t have the same attraction. In fact, they’d prolly lose players because it would be impossible for all but the very. very best players to hit one out.
I suspect there would also be some decline in the number of players who would go into travel/tournament ball. Right now, the equipment makes being competitive much easier. But if it took more skill to compete, IMO, a lot of the fringe players would just disappear.
What I’m trying to say is, I think there is more than bat manufacturer money at stake.
If the statistics given by Little League in the first post are accurate, then I don't see the problem with aluminum bats in Little League. Even if PGStaff is correct in saying that wood is safer, the difference is so small as to be statistically insignificant.
I think little kids learn how to pitch faster than they learn how to hit. I would let the kids continue to use aluminum. It makes for a more level playing field. Also, after having coached and watched tons of youth games, I can tell you that more kids get hurt from thrown balls than from batted balls. And that's not including pitched balls.
Once the kids are H.S age and older the issue becomes money, not safety. With the present system, colleges could not financially switch to wood bats. Major League baseball would have to subsidize the colleges, which they have no intention of doing.
I would love to see College baseball go to the wood bat. It would extend the life of a lot of college pitchers arms. And the games would play more like the Major Leagues.
I think little kids learn how to pitch faster than they learn how to hit. I would let the kids continue to use aluminum. It makes for a more level playing field. Also, after having coached and watched tons of youth games, I can tell you that more kids get hurt from thrown balls than from batted balls. And that's not including pitched balls.
Once the kids are H.S age and older the issue becomes money, not safety. With the present system, colleges could not financially switch to wood bats. Major League baseball would have to subsidize the colleges, which they have no intention of doing.
I would love to see College baseball go to the wood bat. It would extend the life of a lot of college pitchers arms. And the games would play more like the Major Leagues.
quote:Originally posted by Dear old Dad:
I would love to see College baseball go to the wood bat. It would extend the life of a lot of college pitchers arms. And the games would play more like the Major Leagues.
The extended arm life would be extended even farther if wood were used at the lower levels too.
IMHO, the over use is much more likely at lower levels. Couple that with much generally poorer mechanics and undoubtedly much less physical maturity. The slide toward injury starts there, not in the HS or College ranks.
Although I think going completely to wood would be the easiest way to get to where most people want to be, I don’t necessarily believe it’s the one and only way.
If the bat manufacturers want to make the non-wood or non-solid wood bats perform exactly like wood across the entire band of pitch speed, bat speeds, and where the ball strikes the bat, I wouldn’t care if they were used in the ML! So its not that I want to see wood, as much as I want to see the performance of wood.
Personally, I don’t see any reason why technology can’t produce a plywood, plastic, metal, carbon, or even corn cob bat that won’t perform exactly like wood. Its just that no one is forcing them to do it.
Despite the drivel we have least stopped the "angles' from flying
Just some random thoughts...
Some say that the safety factor is not enough reason
Some say it’s Ok for youth ball but wood should be used at high school and above.
Some say that changing might hurt the popularity of the game.
I believe in science and statistical information. I see scorekeepers point about the insurance industry.
However, I also believe that if those insurance statisticians spent as much time as I did watching baseball the rates would quickly go up.
Most here prefer the wood bat! For a variety of reasons. That’s good enough for me!
However, I remember watching 10 year old Ryan Sweeney hit a line drive past a young 1st baseman with one of those minus 8,10,11 whatever bats. The 1st baseman is alive today only because that line drive just nicked his ear instead of hitting him between the eyes. Playing on the small field he was about 60 feet away and his glove never moved! You had to be there, to get the full impact! I’m not sure that the metal bat is not even more deadly at the younger age groups where some kids are much more physically mature and talent levels can be a much greater distance apart. And from what I’m told, where the bats are not strictly regulated.
No matter what the insurance statistics read, more balls hit hard increases the risk of serious injury, especially to pitchers. At any age! How close are the pitchers in the 10 year old league? Don’t we all know what is going to happen at some point. Just because we haven’t been burnt yet, should we continue to play with fire?
Regarding the popularity of the game….
Since baseball made the switch to metal bats, Baseball has gone from being recognized as America’s Game to fighting for survival in some parts of the country. Not blaming metal bats for that, but that has happened during the era of the metal bat. Maybe it’s possible the wood bat would help baseball regain some popularity among our youth.
Some say that the safety factor is not enough reason
Some say it’s Ok for youth ball but wood should be used at high school and above.
Some say that changing might hurt the popularity of the game.
I believe in science and statistical information. I see scorekeepers point about the insurance industry.
However, I also believe that if those insurance statisticians spent as much time as I did watching baseball the rates would quickly go up.
Most here prefer the wood bat! For a variety of reasons. That’s good enough for me!
However, I remember watching 10 year old Ryan Sweeney hit a line drive past a young 1st baseman with one of those minus 8,10,11 whatever bats. The 1st baseman is alive today only because that line drive just nicked his ear instead of hitting him between the eyes. Playing on the small field he was about 60 feet away and his glove never moved! You had to be there, to get the full impact! I’m not sure that the metal bat is not even more deadly at the younger age groups where some kids are much more physically mature and talent levels can be a much greater distance apart. And from what I’m told, where the bats are not strictly regulated.
No matter what the insurance statistics read, more balls hit hard increases the risk of serious injury, especially to pitchers. At any age! How close are the pitchers in the 10 year old league? Don’t we all know what is going to happen at some point. Just because we haven’t been burnt yet, should we continue to play with fire?
Regarding the popularity of the game….
Since baseball made the switch to metal bats, Baseball has gone from being recognized as America’s Game to fighting for survival in some parts of the country. Not blaming metal bats for that, but that has happened during the era of the metal bat. Maybe it’s possible the wood bat would help baseball regain some popularity among our youth.
quote:Originally posted by Dear old Dad:
With the present system, colleges could not financially switch to wood bats. Major League baseball would have to subsidize the colleges, which they have no intention of doing.
Ummm, excuse me but I don't recall the MLB subsidizing colleges back before metal bats came along...
No animosity here, just thinking too. ;-)
That road goes both ways. I’m not saying you’re thinking is at all wrong, but perhaps if you spent more time in the business of evaluating risk, you might see things differently too.
Hear Hear!
PGStaff, why is it so difficult to accept that there are a lot of people with a lot more experience in the field of risk analysis who know more about the significance of the risk than you or I? I daresay its very much more likely you can judge the potential of a given ball player than I can, but I doubt you could do a detailed analysis of the work flow in a business, then program a computer to most efficiently make changes.
Our perceptions aren’t the best way to judge reality in an environment we aren’t extremely familiar with.
LOL!
I doubt there’s much hope in that, but it was a great thought!
I’m sitting here thinking about what other things may have contributed to baseball dropping from the #1 game in America to wherever its at now.
That happened in the era after Curt Flood started all that trouble. BTW, many people don’t know that he lost his case in the Supreme Court, and even more strange, most ot those who do know he lost, don’t know why.
The Supreme Court ruled in favor of baseball 5-3, not on the strength of their case, but on a strange line of thought that combined a liberal use of stare decisis with a belief that baseball simply should stay the way it is.
It also happened in the era of tournaments and showcases. Mebbe we should do away with them too.
That's supposed to be funny.
I suspect the biggest reason it is no longer the #1 sport is, at one time it was so popular, there was no place for it to go but down. From what I know, its still a very popular sport, and one that’s continuing to grow in popularity. Its just that there are other sports people have become drawn too with the advent of modern technology.
I can’t believe either Football, Basketball, and for sure racing would have ever caught up with baseball if all we had was radio and the papers as a way to follow them. As much as I love baseball, it is not the most interesting game to watch.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
However, I also believe that if those insurance statisticians spent as much time as I did watching baseball the rates would quickly go up.
That road goes both ways. I’m not saying you’re thinking is at all wrong, but perhaps if you spent more time in the business of evaluating risk, you might see things differently too.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Most here prefer the wood bat! For a variety of reasons. That’s good enough for me!
Hear Hear!
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:No matter what the insurance statistics read, more balls hit hard increases the risk of serious injury, especially to pitchers. At any age! How close are the pitchers in the 10 year old league? Don’t we all know what is going to happen at some point. Just because we haven’t been burnt yet, should we continue to play with fire?
PGStaff, why is it so difficult to accept that there are a lot of people with a lot more experience in the field of risk analysis who know more about the significance of the risk than you or I? I daresay its very much more likely you can judge the potential of a given ball player than I can, but I doubt you could do a detailed analysis of the work flow in a business, then program a computer to most efficiently make changes.
Our perceptions aren’t the best way to judge reality in an environment we aren’t extremely familiar with.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Regarding the popularity of the game….
Since baseball made the switch to metal bats, Baseball has gone from being recognized as America’s Game to fighting for survival in some parts of the country. Not blaming metal bats for that, but that has happened during the era of the metal bat. Maybe it’s possible the wood bat would help baseball regain some popularity among our youth.
LOL!
I doubt there’s much hope in that, but it was a great thought!
I’m sitting here thinking about what other things may have contributed to baseball dropping from the #1 game in America to wherever its at now.
That happened in the era after Curt Flood started all that trouble. BTW, many people don’t know that he lost his case in the Supreme Court, and even more strange, most ot those who do know he lost, don’t know why.
The Supreme Court ruled in favor of baseball 5-3, not on the strength of their case, but on a strange line of thought that combined a liberal use of stare decisis with a belief that baseball simply should stay the way it is.
It also happened in the era of tournaments and showcases. Mebbe we should do away with them too.
That's supposed to be funny.
I suspect the biggest reason it is no longer the #1 sport is, at one time it was so popular, there was no place for it to go but down. From what I know, its still a very popular sport, and one that’s continuing to grow in popularity. Its just that there are other sports people have become drawn too with the advent of modern technology.
I can’t believe either Football, Basketball, and for sure racing would have ever caught up with baseball if all we had was radio and the papers as a way to follow them. As much as I love baseball, it is not the most interesting game to watch.
A byproduct of sports are injuries and they will happen regardless of changes in equipment. Some people hide behind the safety curtain when their main reason may be to bring back the "old school" game. I think I've stated my personal opinion, but a tongue-thru-cheek comment by rz1 to those safety motivated folks.
If the concern is safety, and people think that wood might reduce the number of line-drive injuries, why not reduce them even more by using pitching machines for kids.
Yes, that is an ignorant statement, but it goes to show how the far apart the opinions can be. From bat manufactures who build the to the bat to it's maximum, to those bleeding hearts who try to put a bubble around the kids. It is an evolving issue that I doubt will ever find a happy medium. Many of those who want to see a change slowly disapear because their kids "age out" of the sport,and many others who will not take a stand because they love to see their kids succeed with metal. There's just no consistency and mass support in the movement while the bat manufacturer puts money into disuading any mounting change in favor of profit. Meanwhile I will sit back and enjoy the game regardless of the bat.
If the concern is safety, and people think that wood might reduce the number of line-drive injuries, why not reduce them even more by using pitching machines for kids.
Yes, that is an ignorant statement, but it goes to show how the far apart the opinions can be. From bat manufactures who build the to the bat to it's maximum, to those bleeding hearts who try to put a bubble around the kids. It is an evolving issue that I doubt will ever find a happy medium. Many of those who want to see a change slowly disapear because their kids "age out" of the sport,and many others who will not take a stand because they love to see their kids succeed with metal. There's just no consistency and mass support in the movement while the bat manufacturer puts money into disuading any mounting change in favor of profit. Meanwhile I will sit back and enjoy the game regardless of the bat.
quote:Originally posted by Texan:
Ummm, excuse me but I don't recall the MLB subsidizing colleges back before metal bats came along...
MLB subsidizing anything other than the players salaries and the owner’s bottom lines? That’s a good one!
More likely, MLB deciding it had to get a cut every time a 10YO kid bought a hat with the logo or a jersey with the name of one of its teams, is a good reason it lost so much popularity!
scorekeeper
The fact that you say baseball is "not the most interesting game to watch" says a lot about where your head is at---is it dark there? I would think so
What is you background to be so pontifical other than USAF and league scorekeeper?
Another great statement from you---baseball has lost its popularity---you must be kidding---attendance at MLB and in the minors is at an all time high
The fact that you say baseball is "not the most interesting game to watch" says a lot about where your head is at---is it dark there? I would think so
What is you background to be so pontifical other than USAF and league scorekeeper?
Another great statement from you---baseball has lost its popularity---you must be kidding---attendance at MLB and in the minors is at an all time high
Gosh, I feel kinda bad for starting this thread, seems to have made quite a stir. Let me just add this:
I always pitch my tent with wood.
quote:Originally posted by spizzlepop:
Aluminum has its uses....
Makes a pretty good beer can
Keeps leftovers fresh for weeks
Works alright as a rolling pin
Raises a tent 'bout as well as anything
(wood works well too)
I always pitch my tent with wood.
Here goes TR again... Obssessed with someone's background, diplomas, etc.
Who is going to set the bar for whom may be pontifical? You, TR?
Lay off SK. I hope he sticks around, he has sparked some good discussion.
Attendance may be at an all time high in raw numbers. But how much of that is due to the fact that the US population is higher?
Do you really believe, TR, that baseball is as popular as it was in the 40's & 50's? I don't.
Is it doing better than it was during that ugly strike garbage time? Yes. But that ain't saying much.
I truly hope that baseball is reaching a wider percentage of the American population. But commie kickball and the like sure seem to be gaining traction with the youngsters.
Would wood bats create a huge jump in interest? Probably not. But it might help some.
Besides, the main reason I personally want wood bats to return is to hear that beautiful sharp crack of the bat - rather than that awful "Ding"!
Who is going to set the bar for whom may be pontifical? You, TR?
Lay off SK. I hope he sticks around, he has sparked some good discussion.
Attendance may be at an all time high in raw numbers. But how much of that is due to the fact that the US population is higher?
Do you really believe, TR, that baseball is as popular as it was in the 40's & 50's? I don't.
Is it doing better than it was during that ugly strike garbage time? Yes. But that ain't saying much.
I truly hope that baseball is reaching a wider percentage of the American population. But commie kickball and the like sure seem to be gaining traction with the youngsters.
Would wood bats create a huge jump in interest? Probably not. But it might help some.
Besides, the main reason I personally want wood bats to return is to hear that beautiful sharp crack of the bat - rather than that awful "Ding"!
quote:PGStaff, why is it so difficult to accept that there are a lot of people with a lot more experience in the field of risk analysis who know more about the significance of the risk than you or I? I daresay its very much more likely you can judge the potential of a given ball player than I can, but I doubt you could do a detailed analysis of the work flow in a business, then program a computer to most efficiently make changes.
Our perceptions aren’t the best way to judge reality in an environment we aren’t extremely familiar with.
Scorekeeper, I’m getting a little tired of this debate.
Of course, I know nothing about the statistical analysis done by the insurance industry. Not sure what that work flow stuff is about.either. And did I somehow miss the whole insurance statistic thing to begin with. I thought there was mention in your original post of a group study. There have been other studies that have come up with different statistics. Did you happen to see the HBO special on this topic?
But when we start talking about the invironment (if you’re referring to baseball) I would guess that I’m much more familiar with that invironment than any insurance statistician on earth.
Let me ask you a couple questions.
In 1998 (I think that’s when it was) when the NCAA placed restrictions on the metal bat because of safety factors and the game becoming a farce. Did the insurance companies lower their rates the next year. If not… Why? The game became less dangerous.
Back when the exit speeds WERE proven to be MUCH higher on the -5 to -11 bats, did the insurance industries raise their rates. IF not… Why? Those bats were proven to be more dangerous.
One thing I do know about the insurance companies is this… They make a lot of money off of us. And the more we do, the more they make! I’m not talking about players dying in large numbers, so that it might affect the multi billion dollar insurance industry. I’m talking about the added risk your son or my son has when he is standing 55 feet from contact. I don’t need an insurance company to tell me there’s a difference between a metal or wood bat. I just know I’d prefer the hitter be using a wood bat when my son is on the mound. I’m not interested in what the insurance companies are telling me. I really doubt the insurance companies will even get interested until it starts affecting their profits.
The bottom line here is that many of us would prefer wood bats. I think safety is a big reason, you think it’s not a concern. Is it OK if I keep thinking it is a concern! Even if I might be all wet!
I know the insurance companies know more than I do. Heck, they’re even betting on how old I am when I die! Wonder if they’ll be right? It won’t change the statistics much, but it sure is kind of an important issue to me!
One more thought,
I wish they would take all the statistical gathering people and give them a bucket of baseballs and let them throw to hitters using wood and then metal bats. Wonder if that would give any of them a different perspective regarding the amount of danger involved.
Yes this is hypothetical, but my research and that invironment tells me they would all unanimously select the wood bat to throw to the next time.
What do you think, scorekeeper. Think they would care which bat?
I wish they would take all the statistical gathering people and give them a bucket of baseballs and let them throw to hitters using wood and then metal bats. Wonder if that would give any of them a different perspective regarding the amount of danger involved.
Yes this is hypothetical, but my research and that invironment tells me they would all unanimously select the wood bat to throw to the next time.
What do you think, scorekeeper. Think they would care which bat?
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
One thing I do know about the insurance companies is this… They make a lot of money off of us.
You're using the same insurance company as me, eh?
Heck, they're not insuring me anymore. They are just collecting premiums. Mark Twain said "A banker is someone who loans you an umbrella when the sun is shining, and wants it back the minute it begins to rain." Today, we should add insurers to that statement.
Well, this thread has certainly run the gamut...
All we need to do is work politics in and all the bases will have been covered.
Scorekeeper,
You threw out a question - and I answered it very specifically.
I threw you the same question - and nothing came back. Not a thing.
IMO - Just some psychobabble that diverted the conversation away from your inabllity to answer the same question you asked me.
As for "proof" - do you need proof to validate you are getting wet when you are standing in the middle of a thunder storm. LOL
You ask - will my son be "safe" as a result of his transfer to an all-wood bat conference? - What does that question mean? And who made safety the only issue?
Here is the answer - you did.
How about this excerpt you posted:
"Sorry, you don’t want to win the war, you want to be right, and that’s really silly! I suppose if non-wood bats were outlawed tomorrow, and the reason given was something other than safety, you’d want them reinstated!
So, the answer to your question is, I’m not going to detail anything other than what I have already. The reason is, since you don’t seem to be interested in any reason other than safety being why someone opposes metal bats, all it would do is get you more angry with me, and I’m not willing to deal with that."
Do you have to read my posts 100 times to understand it. For your benefit - Metal bats are dangerous and they DISTORT the game. Did you miss that in my last post?
As for you detailing anything - you have to be kidding right? You are giving yourself way too much credit.
You havent detailed a single thing. In fact - you havent even answered a simple question - a question that you initiated.
Answer the question - if you can ask it - you should be able to answer it as well. Or at least try.
P.S. And let me add one more little ditty - even though you addressed yet another psychobabble question to PG - as it concerns risk management. I was the Director of Global Risk Management for one of the largest companies in the world for 8 years.
Tell me all about it scorekeeper.
LOL
You threw out a question - and I answered it very specifically.
I threw you the same question - and nothing came back. Not a thing.
IMO - Just some psychobabble that diverted the conversation away from your inabllity to answer the same question you asked me.
As for "proof" - do you need proof to validate you are getting wet when you are standing in the middle of a thunder storm. LOL
You ask - will my son be "safe" as a result of his transfer to an all-wood bat conference? - What does that question mean? And who made safety the only issue?
Here is the answer - you did.
How about this excerpt you posted:
"Sorry, you don’t want to win the war, you want to be right, and that’s really silly! I suppose if non-wood bats were outlawed tomorrow, and the reason given was something other than safety, you’d want them reinstated!
So, the answer to your question is, I’m not going to detail anything other than what I have already. The reason is, since you don’t seem to be interested in any reason other than safety being why someone opposes metal bats, all it would do is get you more angry with me, and I’m not willing to deal with that."
Do you have to read my posts 100 times to understand it. For your benefit - Metal bats are dangerous and they DISTORT the game. Did you miss that in my last post?
As for you detailing anything - you have to be kidding right? You are giving yourself way too much credit.
You havent detailed a single thing. In fact - you havent even answered a simple question - a question that you initiated.
Answer the question - if you can ask it - you should be able to answer it as well. Or at least try.
P.S. And let me add one more little ditty - even though you addressed yet another psychobabble question to PG - as it concerns risk management. I was the Director of Global Risk Management for one of the largest companies in the world for 8 years.
Tell me all about it scorekeeper.
LOL
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
scorekeeper
The fact that you say baseball is "not the most interesting game to watch" says a lot about where your head is at---is it dark there? I would think so
What is you background to be so pontifical other than USAF and league scorekeeper?
Another great statement from you---baseball has lost its popularity---you must be kidding---attendance at MLB and in the minors is at an all time high
Baseball may well be the most interesting game to watch for you, but I assure you, it isn’t when you ask more than the people on a baseball bulletin board, or for sure the people who sponsor sporting events on TV.
My background is, I pay attention to other things in the world than just baseball. I’m certainly not a member of MENSA, but on the other hand, I don’t often feel its necessary to try to put people down because they simply don’t agree with me either.
Do you possess some skill, award, or other thing that makes your opinion any better than mine, other than being 65 years old and a member of this board since 2002?
Baseball has lost its popularity, relative to other sports. Pardon me if you weren’t able to interpret what I said as meaning that.
Your assuming popularity is purely how many people like it is just as specious as thinking that because a schlub golfer today wins more money in 1 year than Snead did in his entire career, means he’s a better golfer, or that a million dollars today is worth the same thing as a million dollars was in 1930.
Don’t just look at the numbers. Look at the percentage of all sport dollars!
Look folks, I realize I’m the new guy on this bulletin board. I also realize my thinking isn’t always main stream, and for sure I get pretty darn irreverent when it comes to baseball dogma. But I haven’t done a thing here other than to post my opinions, tried to be respectful of others, and I haven’t tried to sell or promote anything for personal gain.
Is there some other requirement for posting on this board?
Scorekeeper - why the diversion?
You infer that people are "a lynch mob" - then you play the wounded newcomer? BS
Why not just stick to the original issue?
And why not answer the same question that you so boldly asked me - in a very pointed manner.
I answered your question - with personal information. Why dont you answer mine?
Whats the deal?
You infer that people are "a lynch mob" - then you play the wounded newcomer? BS
Why not just stick to the original issue?
And why not answer the same question that you so boldly asked me - in a very pointed manner.
I answered your question - with personal information. Why dont you answer mine?
Whats the deal?
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
I know the insurance companies know more than I do. Heck, they’re even betting on how old I am when I die! Wonder if they’ll be right? It won’t change the statistics much, but it sure is kind of an important issue to me!
IMO - That is a great way of putting it.
Like Bob Dylan once said - "I dont need a weatherman to tell me which way the wind is blowing".
Just stick your head out the ******* window - and you will know.
LOL
I would like someone to dispute these facts. Metal bat games (HS 7 Innings) last on average of 2 hours 45 minutes. I know this because I have been a HS coach for many years and attend numerous HS games during the season. Wood bat games last on average 1 hour 50 minutes. I know this as well because I have coached wood bat leagues and have attended numerous wood bat games. In WWBA events games are scheduled for 2 hours. They rarely reach the two hour limit (rarely). I have also seen them last 55 minutes a complete 7 inning game. Now why is this? The ball comes off the bat the same right? Give me a break. Metal bats change the game. Metal bats cheat the game. Metal bats allow for kids to have sucess when they should not have success. If it were up to me they would be banned period for all age levels. Why dont we use a nerf football for youth leagues? Why do middle school basketball players play on a 10'foot goal? If a kid leaves the game because he has to hit with a wood bat like all the other kids then he needs to leave the game. I dont want to hear all this stuff about cost either. You can buy three composite bats for the cost of one nuclear bat. Those three composite bats will last longer than that one metal bat. Maybe when kids started learning to hit with wood they wouldnt break them so often. This year at WWBA event in Ga and Jupiter I dont remember seeing more than one or two bats broken in games. And thats alot of games. I guess we need to stop using car seats for kids you know they sure are expensive.
quote:Originally posted by Coach May:
I Metal bats change the game. Metal bats cheat the game. Metal bats allow for kids to have sucess when they should not have success.
CoachMay,
Your very valid point - IMO - are points that the bat manufacturers will never address. They will stay away from this because they know that it is true and that they cannot control it.
Here is what they can control.
They can control lawsuits - and they can control the BS BESR tests - and the "paid for scientists" and they can control PR for their products.
They will always keep the argument against these bats centered on the safety issue - because they can control the BS information that is distributed.
It is all lies - and all you have to do - as PG and you and TR and so many others who "live around the game" attest to - is watch a game with metal bats.
You dont need some high priced piece of equipment to "Prove" that metal bats distort the game and increase the likelihood of serious injury.
All you need is God's gift of sight - and a willingness to speak plainly and tell the truth. IMO.
Scorekeeper, I must admit… If you and I were setting down relaxing and having a beer somewhere. I really don’t think I’d like you at all! 
It doesn't make any difference whose opinions are the most correct. It's all about attitude!
That said, I think you can bring a lot of interesting things to this board. I hope you stay around and continue to debate different topics. I’ll try to stay away from those topics whenever possible.
It doesn't make any difference whose opinions are the most correct. It's all about attitude!
That said, I think you can bring a lot of interesting things to this board. I hope you stay around and continue to debate different topics. I’ll try to stay away from those topics whenever possible.
quote:Why dont we use a nerf football for youth leagues? Why do middle school basketball players play on a 10'foot goal?
Coach, I'll be one of the last to argue with you but in most youth leagues in those sports they do use a different ball because it is easier to handle.
The only reason they went to metal over wood, Was it was cheaper for the LL's around the world to afford to sponser teams.
To many broken wood bats.
Now How are we going to stop it?
It's a billion dollar industry.
Start more wood bat only league's?
Start a recycleing campaign for Alum.
It won't change until we stop buying?
Scorekeeper keep posting?
but be prepared to take your lump's.
It would be quite boring if everybody agreed with everybody.
I do disagree with you about the popularity of baseball.
Baseball is the one and only game that allow's people to dream about making the team?
Explain?
Every player that has ever played the game still think's that if thing's were just a little differant in there live's.
they would of made it to the Big's.
Admit it? You think that to, Don't You?
Even if it is only a Dream to some.
You still think you have are had what it took to be in the show.
That's baseball.
I've never thought I could be a Basketball/Football/Golfer/Tennis/Ect. Player.
Baseball is the only True game that allow's people to believe they have a chance to be successful at it if they just keep working at it.
I know i'm off on one of my Tangent's.
But I love this Game!!
EH
To many broken wood bats.
Now How are we going to stop it?
It's a billion dollar industry.
Start more wood bat only league's?
Start a recycleing campaign for Alum.
It won't change until we stop buying?
Scorekeeper keep posting?
but be prepared to take your lump's.
It would be quite boring if everybody agreed with everybody.
I do disagree with you about the popularity of baseball.
Baseball is the one and only game that allow's people to dream about making the team?
Explain?
Every player that has ever played the game still think's that if thing's were just a little differant in there live's.
they would of made it to the Big's.
Admit it? You think that to, Don't You?
Even if it is only a Dream to some.
You still think you have are had what it took to be in the show.
That's baseball.
I've never thought I could be a Basketball/Football/Golfer/Tennis/Ect. Player.
Baseball is the only True game that allow's people to believe they have a chance to be successful at it if they just keep working at it.
I know i'm off on one of my Tangent's.
But I love this Game!!
EH
I just traded PMs with scorekeeper. I wish he would have posted it rather than PMed me. After much of the same old replying to every quote... He really opened my mind with an idea of how to support wood bat over metal bat.
In respect of the PM system, I'll hope he comes on here and describes his thoughts to everyone. Unlike much of what he has argued, this is very simple and really makes sense. In fact, we've even discussed it in this thread without realizing it's importance.
I'm still not prepared to say I actually like scorekeeper, but this was a stroke of genius even though very simple. I must give credit where credit is due. I think everyone will agree once scorekeeper describes it.
There is no doubt in my mind that anyone wanting to end the metal bat era would see the benifit that scorekeeper outlined to me via PM. And yes it actually does have to do with safety, just looking at it in an easier way to prove it.
Scorekeeper, the floor belongs to you!
In respect of the PM system, I'll hope he comes on here and describes his thoughts to everyone. Unlike much of what he has argued, this is very simple and really makes sense. In fact, we've even discussed it in this thread without realizing it's importance.
I'm still not prepared to say I actually like scorekeeper, but this was a stroke of genius even though very simple. I must give credit where credit is due. I think everyone will agree once scorekeeper describes it.
There is no doubt in my mind that anyone wanting to end the metal bat era would see the benifit that scorekeeper outlined to me via PM. And yes it actually does have to do with safety, just looking at it in an easier way to prove it.
Scorekeeper, the floor belongs to you!
Who $$$ financed $$$ the study that little league put out? Easton, TPX, Rawlings, Worth, or Demarini?
$$$$
$$$$
I think you get my point.
Metal bats were first designed in the 70's for softball and then somehow they unfortunatly got introduced to baseball. I like many others wish they would go away, but I believe there is too much money involved now for that to happen.
CV
$$$$
I think you get my point.
Metal bats were first designed in the 70's for softball and then somehow they unfortunatly got introduced to baseball. I like many others wish they would go away, but I believe there is too much money involved now for that to happen.
CV
I know this is going off on a tangent again.
But has anybody thought about Head and Face protection for pitcher's.
The light weight composite's could be used to fit form a perfect fit armour for the head area.
Chest protector for the heart.
I know that is not tradition?
Not Manly?
Jon Olerud played with a hard shell Baseball hat?
If they made them Cool looking with protection around the eye socket's, temple's, cheek bone's, Ect.
Just a thought!
EH
But has anybody thought about Head and Face protection for pitcher's.
The light weight composite's could be used to fit form a perfect fit armour for the head area.
Chest protector for the heart.
I know that is not tradition?
Not Manly?
Jon Olerud played with a hard shell Baseball hat?
If they made them Cool looking with protection around the eye socket's, temple's, cheek bone's, Ect.
Just a thought!
EH
EH, I understand the idea, but it's kind of like putting a bullet-proof vest on pitchers, instead of taking the gun away from the batters. It'll likely never happen that pitchers will wear helmets. Peripheral vision issues alone will nix that one.
I tend to think the problem is greatest at upper levels of high school and college ball, where the actually pitching speeds and bat swing speeds are way above the "standards" used for BESR. Easy solution is change the testing standard so that for high school, a 85 mph pitch is hit by an 85 mph swing, and for college, a 90 mph pitch is hit by a 90 mph swing. The approval ratings would be stamped on the bat "HSBESR" and "CBESR", for high school and college.
If the bat manufacturers are required to conform, they'll do it in a heartbeat and the next "Wonderbat" will be on the market within weeks, and if the testing standard is realistic, so be it. I'd even bet dollars to doughnuts the major bat manufacturing players have already done the research and can adjust p.d.q. to the new standards.
As an aside, both of my sons play college ball, both hit in the off season only with wood, and both prefer wood to metal. When they switch to metal as their college season approaches, the initial reaction to the metallic sound is always "Yeeeech".
I tend to think the problem is greatest at upper levels of high school and college ball, where the actually pitching speeds and bat swing speeds are way above the "standards" used for BESR. Easy solution is change the testing standard so that for high school, a 85 mph pitch is hit by an 85 mph swing, and for college, a 90 mph pitch is hit by a 90 mph swing. The approval ratings would be stamped on the bat "HSBESR" and "CBESR", for high school and college.
If the bat manufacturers are required to conform, they'll do it in a heartbeat and the next "Wonderbat" will be on the market within weeks, and if the testing standard is realistic, so be it. I'd even bet dollars to doughnuts the major bat manufacturing players have already done the research and can adjust p.d.q. to the new standards.
As an aside, both of my sons play college ball, both hit in the off season only with wood, and both prefer wood to metal. When they switch to metal as their college season approaches, the initial reaction to the metallic sound is always "Yeeeech".
I agree, My son like's the Wood Bat also.
He seem's to find the sweet spot just fine?
It would have to be designed in a way that doesn't get in the way of your vision, and is light weight.
Just to limit the damage caused by a batted ball to the head.
Form fitted.
It's just something I've been thinking about.
Some sort of Spider web pattern over the eye socket's, cheek bone's, and temple's.
Fitted to a hard shell hat.
They wouldn't even know they had it on.
Just something to think about.
EH
He seem's to find the sweet spot just fine?
It would have to be designed in a way that doesn't get in the way of your vision, and is light weight.
Just to limit the damage caused by a batted ball to the head.
Form fitted.
It's just something I've been thinking about.
Some sort of Spider web pattern over the eye socket's, cheek bone's, and temple's.
Fitted to a hard shell hat.
They wouldn't even know they had it on.
Just something to think about.
EH