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Little League and AL

biggerpapibiggerpapi5,000+ posts
This is from a Little League International bulletin I received yesterday:

The Youth Committee of USA Baseball today issued the statement below regarding non-wood bats.
 
Little League International is a member, along with other youth organizations, of USA Baseball. Little League also holds a seat on the USA Baseball Board of Directors.
 
USA Baseball often coordinates research that affects all youth baseball organizations. For example, USA Baseball was instrumental in the recent change to the league age determination date by all youth baseball organizations.
 
-----
 
USA Baseball, the National Governing Body (NGB) for the sport of baseball as designated by the Amateur Sports Act of 1978, recently held a meeting of its National Youth Membership, and on behalf of the following organizations has released the following statement:
 
1. American Amateur Baseball Congress (AABC)
2. American Legion Baseball
3. Dixie Baseball
4. Little League Baseball, Inc.
5. Babe Ruth Baseball
6. PONY Baseball
7. National Amateur Baseball Federation (NABF)
8. National Baseball Congress / Hap Dumont Baseball
9. Amateur Athletic Union (AAU)
10. United States Sports Specialties Association (USSSA)
11. National Police Athletic League (PAL)
12. T-Ball USA
 
PERCEPTION:   Aluminum bats are more dangerous than wood bats.
 
The National Consumer Product Safety Commission studied this issue and concluded in 2002 that there is no evidence to suggest that aluminum bats pose any greater risk than wood bats. Multiple amateur baseball governing bodies, including the NCAA, National High School Federation, Little League International, PONY, et al, all track safety statistics and have concluded that aluminum bats do not pose a safety risk.
 
PERCEPTION:   Balls come off aluminum bats faster than wood.
 
Since 2003, all bats are required to meet the “Bat Exit Speed Ratio” (BESR) performance limitation, which ensures that aluminum bats do not hit the ball any harder than the best wood bats.
 
PERCEPTION:   Injuries from aluminum bats are more severe than with wood bats.
 
Two out of the three deaths from a batted ball in the last decade came from wood bats. Dr. Frederick Mueller, Director of the National Center for Catastrophic Sports Injury Research, has indicated from his studies that catastrophic injuries from wood bats may be more frequent than aluminum bats.
 
PERCEPTION:   The Brown University study proves that aluminum bats hit the ball harder than wood bats.
 
This study is irrelevant by today’s standards. All of the bats used in the Brown study would not be allowed to be used today, because they do not meet the BESR standard.
 
PERCEPTION:   The use of aluminum bats places children at an unacceptable risk of injury.
 
A study from the National Center for Catastrophic Sports Injury Research shows that there have been only 15 catastrophic batted ball injuries to pitchers out of more than 9,500,000 high school and college participants since 1982.
 
During the last five years a number of states, individual organizations, city councils, and others have proposed the banning of metal baseball bats on a number of different levels.  These actions have typically been in reaction to a catastrophic injury as opposed to being based on creditable injury data or research.  In May of 2002 the Consumer Product Safety Commission stated, “The Commission is not aware of any information that injuries produced by balls batted with non-wood bats are more severe than those involving wood bats”.  This statement was true in 2002 and it is true in 2007.
 
The Medical/Safety Advisory Committee of USA Baseball was initiated due to the lack of injury data needed to make decisions affecting the safety of baseball participants. Prior to 2005 there has not been significant research comparing injuries to baseball pitchers from metal bats versus wood bats.  In 2005 the USA Baseball Medical/Safety Committee initiated a three year research project comparing line drive baseball injuries to pitchers from metal bats and wood bats.  Metal bat injury data were taken from the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) Injury Surveillance System and wood bat injury data collected from college summer leagues (NCAA recognized college summer league teams all use wood bats).
 
After two years (2005 and 2006) of collecting batted ball injury data to the pitcher from 93 NCAA college baseball teams and 246 college summer league teams there have only been 17 injuries to NCAA college pitchers and 15 injuries to college summer league pitchers.  Only 32 injuries after 331,821 balls were hit into play (Balls hit into play are calculated by taking the number of at bats and subtracting strike outs and bases on balls).  The injuries in the summer leagues were more severe than the NCAA injuries.  One-third of the summer league injuries involved the head and face as opposed to none in the NCAA.  The third year of the study will be completed in 2007.
 
What this data does indicate is that injuries to the pitcher from batted balls are very rare and can happen while using metal or wood bats.  There is no data to indicate that the few catastrophic injuries to baseball pitchers from metal bats would not have happened if the batter was using a wood bat.  Before any sport makes rule changes, equipment changes, or other changes related to the safety of the participants, it is imperative that these changes are based on reliable injury data and not anecdotal information.
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biggerpapibiggerpapi5,000+ posts
This is very interesting coming from an organization that is nuts about safety (did you watch the LLWS with the "trainer" who came out and spent 10 minutes with every little incident?

However, it also might prove that if you're going to get drilled with a batted ball, it's going to happen regardless of the bat.

I was very interested in this quote:

quote:
Originally posted by biggerpapi:
 
A study from the National Center for Catastrophic Sports Injury Research shows that there have been only 15 catastrophic batted ball injuries to pitchers out of more than 9,500,000 high school and college participants since 1982.
 


Should we make such major changes when only 0.0000015% of players are killed by aluminum bats?

That being said, I'll bet that 80% or more of people who really know baseball, want wood...not for safety but for the beauty of the game.

I'm one of them.
hokieonehokieone5,000+ posts
The HBO special 2-3 years ago exposed that BESR tests are done using unrealistically low speeds for the ball and for the bat, which sure helps keep the exit speed down, at least at the college level. A number of coaches were quoted as having gunned balls coming off of metal bats at speeds well in excess of 100 mph where no human being could possibly react to protect themselves.

As all of us know that watch a lot of baseball, wooden bat and metal, balls come off the metal bats faster, but who are we going to believe-Little League or our lying eyes?
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
I'm with Biggerpapi -- safety issue or not, the game loses something with the switch from wood to metal.

I love going to PG's WWBA tourneys to see REAL baseball, and to see the kids' eyes light up over playing it. Pitchers should know the feeling of having an opposing hitter's bat turn to kindling! And batters do feel pride when they show they really can nail the ball, without artificial help.

The real issue with metal, to me, is not so much safety as it is the way it skews the game. Metal bats have larger sweet spots, and in fact, you can get a hit with a ball off your handle at times. Balls that shouldn't leave the infield end up as Texas Leaguers. Those hits bug me more than the deep HR's.
observer44observer441,000+ posts
.

Observers top 5:

1. - Selective reality...

2. - The very definition of the tail wagging the dog..

3. - Money? People?...hmmm...MONEY!

4. - My kids were right..Science sucks. You can give me all the science you want, those of us who have seen the ball come off carbon fibre know that there is no comparison...

5. - and finally...posted in the wrong thread. This should be in the "Unusually Unusual" section with
"Baby Airplanes", and "Gorilla On The Roof"...

No, on second thought...I retract that...I wouldn't want to insult the Karma thread...

Cool 44
.
Last edited by observer44
08Dad08Dad1,000+ posts
The thing that people who do surveys of this type ignore is that the standard was adopted in 1999 by the NCAA - and probably written in 1998 or earlier.

Testing done in 2002 would be probably 2nd generation bats - not really equivalent to the bats of today.

The engineers at the various bat companies have now had 9 years to figure out how to make a bat that is compliant - and that is hotter than ever.

To me there is a nice parallel to Golf. In 1995 John Daly led the pro tour with an average driving distance of 289 yards. In 2006 the average on the tour was 287 yards.

Moving away from the pros - as a teenager I was a single digit handicap golfer - and could drive it with my wooden driver and steel shaft an average of 270 yards. Today I am a high teens handicapper and routinely reach 300 yards with my turbo charged, graphite shaft, titanium head driver. My swing is far worse, nowhere near the club head speed of my youth - but I am 30 yards longer... and the holes that were once driver-7 iron are now driver wedge routine pars.

The same thing is happening with baseball bats - we just don't have a good way to measure it.

I'd love to see the BESR standards revisted once every 5 years and adjusted for technology.

08
rz1rz15,000+ posts
I am pro-wood but not at the small diamond level. 75% of the kids at that level would have problems handling wood which may result in a measurable percentage changing over to dandelion kickin socker players. HSBBW members for the most part represent the cream of the crop, and at times I think our voice is a little amplified for that fact. The last thing you want to do is knock that number of small field players down because of frustration issues. We all know that LL is not the future "talent indicator", so you may be losing some of your future hidden gems because of equipment issues. As far as the old school "crack of the bat" sound, it is not a noise you will hear on a small field, what I think you might hear is a lot of "heads-up" as wood bats fly out of young hands. When I think of LL I think small diamond, and when I think small diamond I think of players that represent the largest number of LL paticipants. Go to wood on the big field, but don't chew off the small field hand that feeds you. IMHO.

As rz scurries into a hole.
Last edited by rz1
rz1rz15,000+ posts
Putting the wood/metal bat issues aside and looking at a "contoversy brewing" mentality, this is a very smart move. Not only have they identified their allies, they are the first to have drawn a line in the sand with the groups behind them documented. I am a woody-fan for the most part but part of my "real" job is facilitation and I see proponents of a ban will now face even a larger uphill battle IMO. My bet is the NJ law pushed this statement as a fresh counter point to that law.
Last edited by rz1
jaxnbulldogjaxnbulldog100+ posts
Like rz1, i like the idea of "small field" ball with metal. Say 14 and under. That should separate the whet from the chaff.

Most of us on here, as previously stated, are "Old School" and think wood is the only way to go.

BUT...my daddy rode a mule to school, I drove a car.
Sure, it was mom's old Ford Station Wagon (called "The Snaggin' Waggin'" to my boyz), but it wasn't as "Old School" as a mule. Sometimes, you just have to surrender to the advances of technology...at least at the small field level. But HS and College should go to wood IMHO.
S Scorekeeper100+ posts
The only problem I have with LLIs article is when they talk about the BESR standard. The following is a link to THE white paper.

http://webusers.npl.uiuc.edu/~a-nathan/pob/BESRWhitePaper.pdf

It doesn’t take a member of MENSA to understand that using a pitch speed of 70 and a bat speed of 66 is using something even 13YOs can easily attain, let alone 19YO HS, or 24YO college players.

Like biggerpappi and others, I too pine for the return of wood bats. Unfortunately, there’s nowhere near enough good wood such as the ML players get, to go around.

As Milo Dad points out, metal bats do skew things, but evidently the ML teams don’t care. Now if they did, you can bet your bippy we’d see a decrease in wood in a heartbeat!

catcher09, makes an interesting point, but I’m afraid its really not very valid. Anyone stupid enough to throw BP to a HS player without an L-screen is a jerk. Getting nailed by a wood bat or a metal on is gonna hurt, and I don’t think anyone would be able to tell the difference when it happened.

observer44, do you really think a ball hit by a CF after a 70MPH pitch and the bat swung at 66, is really coming off faster than it does from wood? I honestly don’t. But, kick either up by a little as 1mph, and you have a much different story.

08dad, it doesn’t matter what generation the bats are, they all have to be tested and meet the requirements. What gets misunderstood is, they can be engineered to perform better once they get outside of the testing parameters.

Rz1, what makes you think the little kids couldn’t handle wood bats and would leave the game? We did it for many many years. Would wood perform the same way metal does? Of course not, but I’m sure there’s some other synthetic right over the horizon that will outperform the newest of modern composites.
T Texan1,000+ posts
Anyone who throws BP to 12YO's without an Lscreen is not too smart!

Gosh, rz. In the olden days when I grew up, wood bats were all we had. There were no aluminum bats. And everyone still played the game just fine. And those old wood bats were heavier than what wood bats you can get today.

There are plenty of wood composite bats today that last just fine but hit much more like wood than like aluminum.
Dad04Dad045,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by hokieone:
It may just be me, but I find it very scarey that there's an organization called "T Ball USA". Eek


Hokie good catch!. I'll check but I think they are part of the International World T-Ball Congress. I am looking to put together a high level 4U fall team that will work to expose our players to the top 6-8 and under coaches. Smile
08Dad08Dad1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Scorekeeper:
08dad, it doesn’t matter what generation the bats are, they all have to be tested and meet the requirements.


Of course it matters what generation the bats are - the more generations, the more time the engineers have had to figure out how to get around the standards.

Which is what I was trying to say with this statement:

quote:
Originally posted by 08Dad:
The engineers at the various bat companies have now had 9 years to figure out how to make a bat that is compliant - and that is hotter than ever.


If the golf analogy doesn't work for you, how about emission control standards - remember the lovely cars of the early 1970s? Emissions controls degrade the performance of engines that were not designed to work with smog gear... now a couple of decades later, smog control equipment is just a minor annoyance rather than causing the car to be a real dog.

Baseball bats are hotter than ever - no I don't buy that every year is a huge improvement over the prior year - and no 08 son doesn't always have the latest model bat - but if you take a bat of today and compare it to a bat of 5 years ago, the new bat is "hotter". It still complies with the test - but the engineers have figured out how to make the bat comply with the test and still offer more performance when you are outside the strict parameters of what the test was designed for. And as the link you provided points out - the test does not reflect reality at either the college or the high school level...
Last edited by 08Dad
rz1rz15,000+ posts
quote:
Scorekeeper quote:
Rz1, what makes you think the little kids couldn’t handle wood bats and would leave the game? We did it for many many years. Would wood perform the same way metal does? Of course not, but I’m sure there’s some other synthetic right over the horizon that will outperform the newest of modern composites.

Who can say they wouldn't leave the game? Years ago we had limited options? We did a lot of things differently years ago but does that mean we had the best way of doing it. Sometimes we sound like our grandpas. "I remember when....", "If you kids had to do things like we had to.....". Those were "their" good ol days. Why do kids today have to comply with our old standards. Were we right? Do things stop evolving because that's how we did it? I know I would have had many issues if what my dad thought was the way I had to do things. Baseball and life evolve, we are here to enjoy the ride , not control it. We're not playing, they are. Please remember that I am a wood advocate for safety purposes at older ages, but accross the board changes may be nothing more than us not letting go of a game we no longer play.
quote:
Texan quote:
Gosh, rz. In the olden days when I grew up, wood bats were all we had. There were no aluminum bats. And everyone still played the game just fine. And those old wood bats were heavier than what wood bats you can get today.
I remember going to my grandmas house and playing in this HUGE stone porch. Years later I drove by that house and smiled. That porch was really small, but in my "kid mind" it was the biggest thing on earth, and nothing was better. My point is that maybe in our mind we thought everyone played the game just fine. I personally feel that kids ages 5-11 play the game at a much higher level today and their neighborhood team would kick our neighborhood teams arse. Sure, some kids would have no problem with adapting to wood, but factor in the entire "group" and I think you might have "resulting issues".
Last edited by rz1
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
If someone has already mentioned this, guess this is just an agreement.

As someone who has seen both wood and metal used at nearly every level, I think all these tests are meaningless. Also I really don’t think the ball is hit much harder or farther with a metal bat.

Rather than spending a fortune on scientific testing, why not use good old common sense!

For example…

Everyone will agree that batting averages are much higher when metal bats are used. This has been proven, time and time again!

This should tell us that MORE balls are hit HARD with metal bats. Not hit harder as much as being hit hard more often!

This means that more balls are also hit hard back through the middle using metal bats. The pitcher is obviously the one player the most at risk.

We all know the reasons why more balls are hit hard with metal and it doesn’t have to take a scientist to figure it out! Now if the exit speed is only slightly more or even the same but the frequency of balls being hit hard is much, much higher… Wouldn’t it make sense that the wood bat is less dangerous, based on percentages.
There is the #1 reason for using wood! SAFETY!

The #2 reason is it’s a much better game! IMO

The #3 reason is it’s the equipment used at the highest level. I don’t know, but in other sports where a ball is hit, do they use different equipment in high school and college than they do at the professional level? If so, please let me know.
T Texan1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by rz1:
quote:
Texan quote:
Gosh, rz. In the olden days when I grew up, wood bats were all we had. There were no aluminum bats. And everyone still played the game just fine. And those old wood bats were heavier than what wood bats you can get today.
I remember going to my grandmas house and playing in this HUGE stone porch. Years later I drove by that house and smiled. That porch was really small, but in my "kid mind" it was the biggest thing on earth, and nothing was better. My point is that maybe in our mind we thought everyone played the game just fine. I personally feel that kids ages 5-11 play the game at a much higher level today and their neighborhood team would kick our neighborhood teams arse. Sure, some kids would have no problem with adapting to wood, but factor in the entire "group" and I think you might have "resulting issues".


The bats were heavier. I still have some of them around. The handles were significantly thicker than what are used today.

You can even order ash bats today & specify up to a -4 or -5. You can get -3 in maple.

The kids that want to play baseball will play, even if all there is available is a broomstick. If wood bats are all that are in the pile, they'll grab it & head to the plate. I guarantee you...
rz1rz15,000+ posts
quote:
The kids that want to play baseball will play, even if all there is available is a broomstick. If wood bats are all that are in the pile, they'll grab it & head to the plate. I guarantee you...

Tex, we are personally on the same page about everything, my heart says "all wood" because I'm old school. I'm throwing comments out in this thread without my "heart" involved. However, I don't only want the kids who "want to play", I also want to see the kids who learn to love the game involved and I think that by instilling the reasons we feel "are right" is not the way to go. Safety is a real issue, but not at the little diamond level. Why change something that is not broke for our idealistic reasons?
rz1rz15,000+ posts
quote:
The #3 reason is it’s the equipment used at the highest level. I don’t know, but in other sports where a ball is hit, do they use different equipment in high school and college than they do at the professional level? If so, please let me know.


PG- I think the HS - College- and Pro footballs are a little different. Confused
S Scorekeeper100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by 08Dad:
Of course it matters what generation the bats are - the more generations, the more time the engineers have had to figure out how to get around the standards.

Which is what I was trying to say with this statement:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 08Dad:
The engineers at the various bat companies have now had 9 years to figure out how to make a bat that is compliant - and that is hotter than ever.


Mebbe we’re agreeing but are just speaking a different language. ;-)

My point was, the bats all have to meet the .728 BESR, but if they only test at 66B/70Pmph, it doesn’t matter what generation the bats are, they’ll all exceed the limits at velocities much more representative of game normal speeds for the groups using BESR bats. That’s HSs and Colleges.
S Scorekeeper100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by CADad:
I don't believe the tests are designed to take into account bat flex, thus the flex bats of recent years.


Not being an engineer, I don’t know for sure, but since BESR relates to “Exit Speed”, what does it matter how the flex affects it. Or are you saying flex has some effect post the ball exiting the bat?

It seems to me that flex would have an effect on the bat speed, and since that’s set to 66, it seems to me the flex is immaterial.
S Scorekeeper100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by rz1:Who can say they wouldn't leave the game? Years ago we had limited options? We did a lot of things differently years ago but does that mean we had the best way of doing it. Sometimes we sound like our grandpas. "I remember when....", "If you kids had to do things like we had to.....". Those were "their" good ol days. Why do kids today have to comply with our old standards. Were we right? Do things stop evolving because that's how we did it? I know I would have had many issues if what my dad thought was the way I had to do things. Baseball and life evolve, we are here to enjoy the ride , not control it. We're not playing, they are. Please remember that I am a wood advocate for safety purposes at older ages, but accross the board changes may be nothing more than us not letting go of a game we no longer play.


Maybe I’m just not getting your point. You seem to think that the difference is, today’s kids wouldn’t take the time nor have the ability to adapt to whatever they had for bats, and because of that they’d be more apt to leave the game.

To me that seems to say you’re one of the reasons people won’t even try to go back to wood because you’re afraid of something that has no basis in fact. Why do you think kids use the modern bats rather than wood?

Because they’re lighter and perform better? With a little bit of work and some lead tape, I can make a wood bat “feel” much lighter than a drop 11, but retain the higher mass, which should make it outperform metal.

I don’t believe safety is an issue. If it truly was, the insurance carriers would be the first ones to let everyone know the metal bats were less safe by raising the rates to the point where they couldn’t be afforded.

I know that in your heart you feel they are unsafe, but people who actually compute probabilities, which is what insurance companies do, don’t use feelings, they use mathematics, and usually Bayes Theorem. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/bayes-theorem/
S Scorekeeper100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
Everyone will agree that batting averages are much higher when metal bats are used. This has been proven, time and time again!


Although I’d tend to agree, I don’t know where its been proven? I’d be interested in reviewing the data if you can help me out.

quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
This should tell us that MORE balls are hit HARD with metal bats. Not hit harder as much as being hit hard more often!


I don’t think how “HARD” balls are hit is what makes the difference. Maybe that metal bats can have a much much larger sweet spot than a point 6 inches from the
end of the barrel which is where the BESR tests are made, has an effect. IOW, a ball it 3” from the end of the bat or 9” from the end of the bat have the same potential.

Also, there’s little doubt in my mind that a 2 seamer that’s hit 4” above the hand on a metal bat might just drop in for a duck **** single, while if the bat was wood, would end up shattering the bat and being an easy out to the P.

quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
This means that more balls are also hit hard back through the middle using metal bats. The pitcher is obviously the one player the most at risk.


Where did you get that? I’m willing to believe it, but there has to be some kind of data behind it.

quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
We all know the reasons why more balls are hit hard with metal and it doesn’t have to take a scientist to figure it out! Now if the exit speed is only slightly more or even the same but the frequency of balls being hit hard is much, much higher… Wouldn’t it make sense that the wood bat is less dangerous, based on percentages.
There is the #1 reason for using wood! SAFETY!


I’m sorry, but I can’t buy that. Like I’ve said, the final word on it are the insurance companies, and they don’t agree that its much more dangerous if it is at all.

quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
The #2 reason is it’s a much better game! IMO


Much more traditionally accurate, for sure. But a “better” game? that’s pretty much an individual thing, just like whether or not the DH rule is a better or worse game.

I certainly believe wood exposes hitter’s weaknesses far more than metal does. It also gives a much better indication of a pitcher’s ability than metal does. So in that sense. I agree that wood provides a much better game.

quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
The #3 reason is it’s the equipment used at the highest level. I don’t know, but in other sports where a ball is hit, do they use different equipment in high school and college than they do at the professional level? If so, please let me know.


Why limit it to sports where a ball is hit? ;-)

There’s no doubt that to us fans of the more traditional game, baseball’s been tinkered to death to try to make play at all levels appear to b the same as play at he ML level, and like you, I think its done more to hurt the game than help it.

But what can be done about it? As you and others have pointed out many times, the reality of the game is what it is. The game has forever changed, and even if everyone wanted to take it back to what it once was, it can’t happen.

The second society decided it wanted a game that was more glitz, glamour, and power, baseball had to make some difficult choices. It either had to change and give the fans what they wanted, or the fans would leave, and with them, the players would also eventually leave.

Baseball’s tried to provide the best of both the old world and the new, but the jury’s obviously still out on the result.
rz1rz15,000+ posts
Scorekeeper,
Are you pro-wood or anti-wood? When you say you can make a wood bat outperform metal and then say there is not a there is no safety issue I'm getting confused what side of the fence you are on

Maybe I’m just not getting your point. You seem to think that the difference is, today’s kids wouldn’t take the time nor have the ability to adapt to whatever they had for bats, and because of that they’d be more apt to leave the game.
That is a hypothesis, I don't know. I am throwing comments out for discussion. If you want an opinion I THINK you have to have across the board agreement to change and you will not get that at all youth baseball level because they are of the thinking that there is not a reason to change, and change may cause a loss in participation.

To me that seems to say you’re one of the reasons people won’t even try to go back to wood because you’re afraid of something that has no basis in fact. Why do you think kids use the modern bats rather than wood?
It doesn't take as much work to become even the slightest bit profiecent with metal. Kids use them because it is easier out of the box. Lets make it harder with less success and really frustrate them from the get go. Heck, maybe youth football and basketball should use regular size balls because sooner or later they'll get the hang of it.

Because they’re lighter and perform better? With a little bit of work and some lead tape, I can make a wood bat “feel” much lighter than a drop 11, but retain the higher mass, which should make it outperform metal.
You better quite that day job because you will have millions of bats to conform for the players of "little field" baseball players. Remember I am pro-wood on the big field

I don’t believe safety is an issue. If it truly was, the insurance carriers would be the first ones to let everyone know the metal bats were less safe by raising the rates to the point where they couldn’t be afforded.
Why do they insure Ford pintos when they are not as safe as a caddy?

I know that in your heart you feel they are unsafe, but people who actually compute probabilities, which is what insurance companies do, don’t use feelings, they use mathematics, and usually Bayes Theorem. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/bayes-theorem/[/QUOTE]
I'm not debating a safety issue. PG's post was right on as far as indicating that it may not be a velocity issue but the fact that it may be a "probability" issue because the metal bat has a larger sweet spot thus allowing more solid contact.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
quote:
PG this is going no where with Scorekeeper.

rz1,

He wants data! (proof) Smile Geez, this site would be tough to keep up with if we had to provide data and proof everytime we post. Just call it my opinion and disagree. I am not trying to win an argument with anyone. I am not an expert at anything!

Anyway, here's something to think about...

We run BCS Tournaments with Metal Bats.
We run WWBA Tournaments with Wood Bats.
A lot of the same Teams play in both!

Here are some of the scores in the 8 team BCS Finals with all high quality teams and pitching. 8-7, 10-8, 16-5, 11-2, 10-3, 8-7, 10-3, 7-6, and the Championship game was 10-9 Midland Redskins defeating East Cobb. In pool play (4 games each team)… Midland scored 27 runs, Savanah Chain 27 runs, East Cobb 35 runs, Richmond County 24 runs. ABD Bulldogs gave up 30 runs in 4 games, SW Florida gave up 31. The lowest runs allowed by any of the 8 teams was 16 or an average of 4 runs a game.

Then some of the same teams also played in the WWBA Championship (Wood Bats) East Cobb allowed 4 runs in 5 games, Midland allowed 3 runs in 5 games, the Florida Bombers allowed 2 runs in 5 games. Anyway, overall just less offense with the Wood Bats!

Without spending days or even weeks adding it all up, we just know there is a lot more offensive production and scoring with the Metal Bat. (Not even close but a lot more) More hits, more home runs, more runs scored, more of everything. We also know the games last longer with metal! Just using common sense, I took it for granted that also includes more balls hit hard down both lines, over the fence, in the gaps and up the middle. No I don’t have the exact data. Lets just call it my opinion for now. Heck, maybe I'm wrong!

One can follow the offensive production in the summer collegiate wood bat leagues to get a good idea.

Regarding insurance companies… The odds of any pitcher getting killed is astronomical, so they have no reason to up the rates, if they in fact haven’t upped the rates. But did they lower the rates when the NCAA implemented bat restrictions a few years ago? Obviously someone (the NCAA) was concerned about safety and turning the game into a farce. In 1998 Southern Cal beat Arizona State 21-14 (Baseball not Football) and balls were flying out of the park on checked swings. It wasn’t the insurance companies who caused the restrictions.

I have no way of proving it, but balls actually hitting pitchers, not necessarily in the head, is going to happen more often with metal than wood. I had a son who pitched, so does rz1 and many others who post here. Justbaseball had a son get seriously injured by a ball hit with a wooden bat. They are both dangerous, but I like the "odds" of staying healthy a lot better with wood. I like it when not so many balls are hit hard!

Guess someone could check back 30 some years ago and see if college hitting statistics increased from wood to metal. Those statistics are probably available somewhere. If hitting production increases, so does the danger to the pitcher! The heck with exit speed, I AM talking simple math!

I’m getting the idea that “scorekeeper” just likes to debate. (Argue) He brings up some good points, but it’s hard to keep up with him. I get the feeling that if you said the sky was blue, he’d debate that. I have a very good friend just like that. Whatever someone says, he takes the opposite side and there’s an argument. He lives for that! It's harmless!
itsinthegameitsinthegame5,000+ posts
When they "market" the latest and greatest - what exactly are they marketing?

If the BESR nonsense tests are all accurate - and if all the manufacturers abide by the bogus rules - ask yourself - What are they marketing?

Is it the color of the bat - Nope.
Is it the longevity of the bat - Nope.

Its the pop.

But its not supposed to be about the pop - if they are following the rules.

Then - you go to a game - and you watch one of these $300 rocket launchers take a ball 325 on a **** swing.

The reasonable person - IMO - has to ask themselves.

What the heck just happened? LOL

Here is the bottom line - IMO.

Liars and thieves - who are willing to sacrifice your childs safety - so they can buy a vacation home.

And they will say and do anything to justify it.

All you gotta do is go and watch a game.

Wink
Last edited by itsinthegame
S Scorekeeper100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by rz1:Are you pro-wood or anti-wood? When you say you can make a wood bat outperform metal and then say there is not a there is no safety issue I'm getting confused what side of the fence you are on


I’m definitely pro wood, always have been and always will be!

quote:
Originally posted by rz1:That is a hypothesis, I don't know. I am throwing comments out for discussion. If you want an opinion I THINK you have to have across the board agreement to change and you will not get that at all youth baseball level because they are of the thinking that there is not a reason to change, and change may cause a loss in participation.


No doubt you’re correct in that the overwhelming assumption is that a change will cause a loss in participation. But, there is no way there will ever be an across the board agreement to anything at the youth level! There are too many empires that would feel threatened!

But knowing, or at least feeling, those things to be true, shouldn’t stop dissenting opinions, and most certainly shouldn’t stop people from trying to introduce change. the last thing anyone should want to see happen is that he game stagnates, and that’s what lack of change means.

quote:
Originally posted by rz1:It doesn't take as much work to become even the slightest bit profiecent with metal. Kids use them because it is easier out of the box. Lets make it harder with less success and really frustrate them from the get go. Heck, maybe youth football and basketball should use regular size balls because sooner or later they'll get the hang of it.


Why do you believe metal is easier out of the box than wood is? I’m not trying to put words into your mouth, but generally when I hear people say that, its because the metal bats can be made so light relative to the length. I.e. 30/17. I’m saying that can be done with wood too.

As far as whether or not equipment should be made in different sizes, I have no trouble with that at all. But, I find it pretty stupid to change the field size and the bat size, but the thing that makes the most difference, the ball, has exactly the same requirements ML has!

Granted, ML balls are constructed to higher standards, but as far as the size and weight and general characteristics goes, they are exactly the same. Why not mess with the balls?

quote:
Originally posted by rz1:You better quite that day job because you will have millions of bats to conform for the players of "little field" baseball players. Remember I am pro-wood on the big field


You think Louisville Slugger, Easton, or any other bat manufacturer couldn’t manufacture wood bats so that they’d come out of the box however people wanted them?

But to tell the truth, I’d much prefer the wood bats came the same way metal bats do, pretty much one size fits all. FI, there’s absolutely no difference in any Easton 30/21of the same model.

Then it would give the kids the opportunity to adjust and tweak their own bats, teaching them something much more important. We have a whole generation of parents, and therefore their kids, who are almost totally ignorant about how to do things to their bats to make them look and feel much closer to their desires than what comes out of a box!

quote:
Originally posted by rz1:Why do they insure Ford pintos when they are not as safe as a caddy? [QUOTE]

Do you honestly believe there no difference in the rates between different cars and different drivers? ;-)

Talk to your insurance guy. I can guarantee that he’ll tell you there are cars that are safe than others and they get better rates.

Heck, Lloyds of London will insure anything, but not everyone can afford it. Trust me. If the insurance carriers really believed there was a significantly higher danger, you’d see the rates climb to the moon, and eventually it would become unaffordable.

The thing is, you might feel a 1 in 20,000,000 chance is enough to make something dangerous, but that doesn’t mean everyone feels the same way. there are those who would argue that if you really feel they’re unsafe and still let you child pitch, you should be put in jail. I really don’t think they’re more dangerous at all.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rz1:I'm not debating a safety issue. PG's post was right on as far as indicating that it may not be a velocity issue but the fact that it may be a "probability" issue because the metal bat has a larger sweet spot thus allowing more solid contact.


If it isn’t a safety issue, who cares whether or not there’s more solid contact? It isn’t as though things change for only one player, or even a some number less than all. The difference affects everyone.

If you don’t like what those differences provide, then you either 1) forsake the game entirely, 2) do what you can to force changes, or 3) learn to live with it.

I’d say you were in trouble. Forsaking the game shouldn’t even be an option, and you don’t think its possible to affect changes across the board. That seems to leave only living with it.

quote:
Originally posted by rz1
PG this is going no where with Scorekeeper. You made great points


Nowhere depends on you perspective, and so does whether or not the points were valid.

Its all just information for the ol' database.
itsinthegameitsinthegame5,000+ posts
Getting wrapped up in the debate is actually a strategy.

And the debate - with the bogus stats - and the "paid for lobbyists" - will do exactly what it is intended to do. And that is - just kill time - and let the same old keep on being the same old.

The fact of the matter is that the metal bat dudes got themselves firmly entrenched years and years ago - and now they are rich.

And the best strategy for these leeches - who couldnt care less about the dangers to the players and the distortion of the game - is to just keep the debates and the BS flowing.

Smart businessmen IMO - bad human beings - but smart businessmen.
Last edited by itsinthegame
itsinthegameitsinthegame5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Scorekeeper:
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
Everyone will agree that batting averages are much higher when metal bats are used. This has been proven, time and time again!


Although I’d tend to agree, I don’t know where its been proven? I’d be interested in reviewing the data if you can help me out.



You "Tend" to agree"?

You really dont need it proven by anyone - do you?.

Here is all you have to do.

Go to a game.
Be conscious.
With Gods grace - be able to utilize the gift of eyesight.

And that is that.

No BESR's - no spokesmen - No BS

Just watch the ******* game - and in about 5 minutes - you will get it - unless of course you are a marketer of $300 metal rocket launchers. LOL
S Scorekeeper100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff: He wants data! (proof) Geez, this site would be tough to keep up with if we had to provide data and proof everytime we post.


I don’t know what I said that was so egregious. All I said was that I didn’t know what you said was “proven” even though I tended to agree. Then you provided some what looks like pretty easy to get data, and although it proves nothing conclusively, its certainly good enough for the purposes of this discussion.

You see, I didn’t KNOW anything, and therefore couldn’t be counted with “EVERYONE”. How would I or anyone else get access to the same data you do?

quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff: But did they lower the rates when the NCAA implemented bat restrictions a few years ago?


Which should imply that if they thought the dangers had increased again, they would definitely have no reservations about re-raising the rates.

quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff: They are both dangerous, but I like the "odds" of staying healthy a lot better with wood.


What you like may or may not reflect what the math does, but it doesn’t matter if that’s what you feel. I never argued with that at all.

But consider this. is it at all possible that the numbers you see are very much skewed from what the vast majority of play is? IOW, would a suitable solution be to use wood for the higher caliber of play, such as tournaments?

quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff: If hitting production increases, so does the danger to the pitcher!


That isn’t the issue. There’s some level of danger present, just because it’s a sport with things flying around, people running all over the place, and all the other things going on. The issue is, does the use of metal bats increase the danger to unacceptable levels?

For you and lots of others, the answer is obviously yes. For me, the answer is, I don’t know because I don’t know because I don’t have access to all of the data I’d need to make an intelligent decision.

I can tell you that my gut feeling is the same as yours, but that isn’t proof. So, what do I do to try to resolve this issue? I rely on those people who are in the business of risk analysis. Insurance companies. To the best of my knowledge, they don’t see the risk as being significant enough to warrant action. Hence, my position.

Maybe rather than going back and forth, we need to try to define what an acceptable risk is. For the sake of discussion, let’s assume the chances of significant injury to a pitcher with a metal bat is 1 in 1,000, and the chances with wood is 1 in 100,000. That’s a pretty significant difference.

But what if the difference was only 1 in 10.000, for wood. That’s still 10 times more likely, and probable would lose a few folks, but not a whole lot.

Now lets say its only 1 in 2,000. That means metal injuries are twice as likely than wood. That’s still a pretty significant difference, but let’s look at that real hard. What if the odds were in the millions instead of the thousands?

It would still be twice as likely with metal, but the odds of it happening at all are significantly higher, so does that change anything?

Here’s a link to a LLI statement. http://www.littleleague.org/media/USA_Youth_Baseball_012507.asp

Let’s not argue its merits, but let’s look at the last paragraph.

What this data does indicate is that injuries to the pitcher from batted balls are very rare and can happen while using metal or wood bats. There is no data to indicate that the few catastrophic injuries to baseball pitchers from metal bats would not have happened if the batter was using a wood bat. Before any sport makes rule changes, equipment changes, or other changes related to the safety of the participants, it is imperative that these changes are based on reliable injury data and not anecdotal information.

How can anyone argue that that paragraph doesn’t make a great deal of sense.

So what’s an acceptable number?
S Scorekeeper100+ posts
itinthegame,

I do go to games, I do watch, and I do get it that metal bats are more dangerous and do provide a definite advantage over wood.

I GET IT!

I HATE THE FREAKIN’ THINGS!

I TOO HAVE A SON WHO WAS A COLLEGE PITCHER, AND I DID WORRY ABOUT HIS SAFTEY!

But, I am saying that I’m not sure that metal bats alone are so much more dangerous than wood, that it’s the main reason I wish they’d just go away!

I’m feeling pretty impotent here, not because I don’t think my argument has merit, but because you other folks are so willing to accept conjecture and perception rather than facts.

I’ve been watching the game for a heck of a long time now, and other than the batting helmet and the rules for throwing at batters, and fighting, nothing’s really changed as far as safety. I’m sure there are things we don’t know about, but I’m talking about the game itself.

But the game below the pros has constantly been made “safer”, to the point of what some would say is ridiculous. I surely don’t want to see anyone get hurt, but c’mon. when you decide to make a change to the game because of safety, how about at least making sure safety is an issue!

I’m gonna guess that the chances of a pitcher getting significantly injured by a batted ball, is less than him/her getting seriously injured from the time s/he leaves class, home, or whatever heading to the game, until the umpire call Play Ball!

I’m not for metal at all. I’m against a lynch mob mentality that wants to act just because they don’t like something.
P puma1500+ posts
It's really all about the money.

"he fact of the matter is that the metal bat dudes got themselves firmly entrenched years and years ago - and now they are rich."

For $350 Little Johnny can hit the ball farther and better than he did yesterday. And there's always a Big Johnnie willing to support this theory. But Big Johnny won't let Little Johnny share his bat with his teammates because it's so expensive, so every Big Tom,Dick and Harry on the team has to go out and buy Little Tom , Dick and Harry even BETTER bats.
It's a racket and too many companies, people, etc. are lining their pockets for it to ever change.
itsinthegameitsinthegame5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Scorekeeper:

I’m not for metal at all. I’m against a lynch mob mentality that wants to act just because they don’t like something.


I dont think you read the post close enough.

I am against the use of metal bats because the ball flies off the bat at unnatural speed and distorts the game.

I dont like that.

You can use whatever inflammatory words you want to argue for it or against it - and you can do the same in your description of people who take either side as well.

But here is a fact that is neither conjecture nor perception.

Regardless of what any self-interested metal bat manufacturer - or their representatives tell you - the ball comes off the bat faster than it does off a wood bat.
Last edited by itsinthegame
S Scorekeeper100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by itsinthegame:
I dont think you read the post close enough.

I am against the use of metal bats because the ball flies off the bat at unnatural speed and distorts the game.

I dont like that.

You can use whatever inflammatory words you want to argue for it or against it - and you can do the same in your description of people who take either side as well.

But here is a fact that is neither conjecture nor perception.

Regardless of what any self-interested metal bat manufacturer - or their representatives tell you - the ball comes off the bat faster than it does off a wood bat.


What did I ever say that’s any different? I don’t like the way the game has gone with metal either! I’m not trying to be inflammatory at all. All I’m saying is, safety hasn’t been proven to be a good enough reason to do away with the darn things.

Does the ball come off of metal bats faster than wood? Not necessarily. Under the very precise conditions the tests are made, they don’t! But, since those very precise conditions are ridiculous in that they don’t cover a wide enough range of NORMAL playing conditions, the standard means little or nothing.

Now here’s a question for you. what have you done to try to stem the metal bat tide, other than to tell me I’m wrong for the way I think?

Have you refused to cave in and force you son to hit with nothing other than wood? I did! Unfortunately the HS coach said that if he only wanted to use wood, he wouldn’t get to bat in games. End of story.

Have you refused to allow your son to pitch? If I honestly believed my boy was in more than the normal danger expected for a pitcher, I would have refused my permission. That’s a parent’s job! If everyone did that rather than to just complain about it, it would change!

Maybe I should change my signature block to: Everybody wants to go to heaven, but no one wants to die! angel
Last edited by Scorekeeper
StyleMismatchStyleMismatch100+ posts
I'm coming to this discussion a little late, just haven't gotten around to turning on the computer in a couple of days. One thing that caught my eye was the claim that ALL aluminum bats in use today are BESR certified. Does that include the Stealth and all the other super titanium mega dollar bats? I thought all bats that were BESR certified carried a marking to that effect, and I don't see it on these youth bats.
itsinthegameitsinthegame5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Scorekeeper:


What did I ever say that’s any different? I don’t like the way the game has gone with metal either! I’m not trying to be inflammatory at all. All I’m saying is, safety hasn’t been proven to be a good enough reason to do away with the darn things.

Perhaps - from your perspective - that is the case. From my perspective - I do not need a scientist to prove exit ratios. All I need is my eyes.

Does the ball come off of metal bats faster than wood? Not necessarily.

I disagree. No rationalizations or hedging either. Just falt out disagree with you.


Now here’s a question for you. what have you done to try to stem the metal bat tide, other than to tell me I’m wrong for the way I think?

Actually - lots of things.
Heres a few.
Ive written to my congressman. Twice

Ive encouraged my eldest son to transfer to an all-wood bat collegiate conference (The GLVC - D-2)

I sought out - and with HiHardHeat's help - got my youngest son into a great program - that plays and practices almost exclusively with wood year round.



Since you are so full of questions - let me ask one - what have you done other than sit on both sides of the fence and infer that people who have an opinion are a lynch mob?
Last edited by itsinthegame
T Texan1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by rz1:
Tex, we are personally on the same page about everything, my heart says "all wood" because I'm old school. I'm throwing comments out in this thread without my "heart" involved. However, I don't only want the kids who "want to play", I also want to see the kids who learn to love the game involved and I think that by instilling the reasons we feel "are right" is not the way to go. Safety is a real issue, but not at the little diamond level. Why change something that is not broke for our idealistic reasons?


If a kid doesn't want to play baseball, I don't think he should be out there. Let him choose a sport of his own liking - as long as it isn't commie kickball. Big Grin


Well, if we follow that don't fix it if it ain't broke line of reasoning then we never should have changed from wood to aluminum, eh? Wink
T Texan1,000+ posts
SM - The only bats that are BESR certified are those -3 bats intended for HS & College use.

"Youth bats", "Senior League bats", -5's, etc. are NOT subject to BESR limitations.

BESR comes pretty close to having the ball come off the bat at the same exit velocity as a wood bat - UNDER THE TEST CONDITIONS. As some have pointed out, the test conditions involve slower speeds than would be seen in much of HS and all of college ball.

So it is possible that a manufacturer could tweak the design such as to meet the BESR requirements, but still have the ball come off faster than wood when the pitch is coming in at 85-90 mph.

Let's go back to an important point PG made. THERE ARE MORE HARD HITS UP THE MIDDLE WITH ALUMINUM THAN WOOD! I don't need to have a study with statistical analysis of actual hits in games to prove that to me. Regardless of whether or not the BESR requirements do or do not make the aluminum bat act just like wood in terms of exit velocity.

Why? Because the sweet spot is much bigger on the aluminum bat. Give everyone bats with smaller sweet spots, there WILL be fewer hard hits. Give everyone bats with bigger sweet spots there WILL be more hard hits. Pretty basic fact if you think through it just a bit.

Now, probability will tell us that if there are more hard hits in general, there will be a distribution as to where those hard hits travel on the field. And probability tells us that some of those extra hard shots will be back up the middle. Thus metal will result in more hard shots up the middle than wood.

There is logic and science behind PG's assertion.

And iig, to me it is refreshing to see someone questioning things and looking at both sides of the issue.

The bat companies do have a huge interest in keeping aluminum bats. Want to see bat companies line up for filing Chapter 11? Eliminate metal baseball bats. Not that I have anything against the bat companies, but I still would like to see wood and wood composite bats used.
Last edited by Texan
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
A few things here from an old man

01-- we played with wood bats as kids---wood bats held together with nails and tape--- I think kids at the LL level would benefit from the use of wood early on

02-- wood bats today break completely different that they used to---I never stood with the knob in my hand like they do now when the bat breaks.

03---at our events we play the games with aluminum and do BP with wood

04-- our travel team plays with wood as ofetn as is possible

05-- we use wood not because of safety concerns but because we believe it to be the "true game"
S Scorekeeper100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by itsinthegame:

Perhaps - from your perspective - that is the case. From my perspective - I do not need a scientist to prove exit ratios. All I need is my eyes.


Great! If that’s your standard of proof, good on ya.

quote:
Originally posted by itsinthegame:
I disagree. No rationalizations or hedging either. Just falt out disagree with you.


Good!

quote:
Originally posted by itsinthegame:
Now here’s a question for you. what have you done to try to stem the metal bat tide, other than to tell me I’m wrong for the way I think?

Actually - lots of things.
Heres a few.
Ive written to my congressman. Twice

Ive encouraged my eldest son to transfer to an all-wood bat collegiate conference (The GLVC - D-2)

I sought out - and with HiHardHeat's help - got my youngest son into a great program - that plays and practices almost exclusively with wood year round.


Congratulations!

Is your son now safe?

quote:
Originally posted by itsinthegame:Since you are so full of questions - let me ask one - what have you done other than sit on both sides of the fence and infer that people who have an opinion are a lynch mob?


Why do you say I’m sitting on both sides of the fence? How many times do I have to say I hate all non-wood bats! What twists your panties is, I don’t hate them because they’re unsafe!

Do you realize how foolish it is to attack an ally? If your goal is truly for baseball at all levels to go back to wood, why do you care what the reasons are for people to want to make that happen?

Sorry, you don’t want to win the war, you want to be right, and that’s really silly! I suppose if non-wood bats were outlawed tomorrow, and the reason given was something other than safety, you’d want them reinstated!

So, the answer to your question is, I’m not going to detail anything other than what I have already. The reason is, since you don’t seem to be interested in any reason other than safety being why someone opposes metal bats, all it would do is get you more angry with me, and I’m not willing to deal with that.
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
When a ball is struck on the sweet spot with wood I do believe it comes off just as hot as a metal bat. But the fact is you may see one or two balls struck like this in an entire wood bat game. With metal bats it is very often because the sweet spot is so much larger on a metal bat. In fact I have seen homeruns hit with metal bats off the handles. So what you get is instead of one or two smoked shots per game with wood you have numerous in a metal bat game. All you have to do is go to a wood bat tourney and see it for yourself. Then go to a HS game and see it for yourself. Metal bat games produce many more runs and many more hard hit balls. That is a fact! Personally I just dont like metal for the most part because they change the game. They allow hits when they should not be hits. They cheat the game. Safety is an issue as well for me.
S Scorekeeper100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Texan:

There is logic and science behind PG's assertion.


I’ll accept all that without reservation.

Now all I need to know is, what’s an acceptable level of danger, and does using metal bats alone, bring the level above what’s acceptable?

There’s not doubt that for some that level has been reached, but for me, it hasn’t. Why? Because I haven’t had it proven to me what the acceptable level is, nor that its been reached.

quote:
Originally posted by Texan: The bat companies do have a huge interest in keeping aluminum bats. Want to see bat companies line up for filing Chapter 11? Eliminate metal baseball bats. Not that I have anything against the bat companies, but I still would like to see wood and wood composite bats used.


Are you sure you’re from Texas? I find myself agreeing with you much more than most Texans I communicate with.

Indeed, the bat companies certainly do have a tremendous interest in this issue, but the big ones like LS have wood lines too, so I doubt they would really care one way or the other, assuming they could get their hands on enough wood to fill the need.

But, there are also some other folks who have a tremendous interest in it too. Look at the youth organizations who have used the additional pop the metal bats have to promote the larger field sizes for pre HS ages.

If all levels went to wood, the larger fields with the longer fence distances wouldn’t have the same attraction. In fact, they’d prolly lose players because it would be impossible for all but the very. very best players to hit one out.

I suspect there would also be some decline in the number of players who would go into travel/tournament ball. Right now, the equipment makes being competitive much easier. But if it took more skill to compete, IMO, a lot of the fringe players would just disappear.

What I’m trying to say is, I think there is more than bat manufacturer money at stake.
DO Dear old Dad100+ posts
If the statistics given by Little League in the first post are accurate, then I don't see the problem with aluminum bats in Little League. Even if PGStaff is correct in saying that wood is safer, the difference is so small as to be statistically insignificant.

I think little kids learn how to pitch faster than they learn how to hit. I would let the kids continue to use aluminum. It makes for a more level playing field. Also, after having coached and watched tons of youth games, I can tell you that more kids get hurt from thrown balls than from batted balls. And that's not including pitched balls.

Once the kids are H.S age and older the issue becomes money, not safety. With the present system, colleges could not financially switch to wood bats. Major League baseball would have to subsidize the colleges, which they have no intention of doing.

I would love to see College baseball go to the wood bat. It would extend the life of a lot of college pitchers arms. And the games would play more like the Major Leagues.
S Scorekeeper100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Dear old Dad:
I would love to see College baseball go to the wood bat. It would extend the life of a lot of college pitchers arms. And the games would play more like the Major Leagues.


The extended arm life would be extended even farther if wood were used at the lower levels too.

IMHO, the over use is much more likely at lower levels. Couple that with much generally poorer mechanics and undoubtedly much less physical maturity. The slide toward injury starts there, not in the HS or College ranks.

Although I think going completely to wood would be the easiest way to get to where most people want to be, I don’t necessarily believe it’s the one and only way.

If the bat manufacturers want to make the non-wood or non-solid wood bats perform exactly like wood across the entire band of pitch speed, bat speeds, and where the ball strikes the bat, I wouldn’t care if they were used in the ML! So its not that I want to see wood, as much as I want to see the performance of wood.

Personally, I don’t see any reason why technology can’t produce a plywood, plastic, metal, carbon, or even corn cob bat that won’t perform exactly like wood. Its just that no one is forcing them to do it.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Just some random thoughts...

Some say that the safety factor is not enough reason

Some say it’s Ok for youth ball but wood should be used at high school and above.

Some say that changing might hurt the popularity of the game.

I believe in science and statistical information. I see scorekeepers point about the insurance industry.

However, I also believe that if those insurance statisticians spent as much time as I did watching baseball the rates would quickly go up.

Most here prefer the wood bat! For a variety of reasons. That’s good enough for me!

However, I remember watching 10 year old Ryan Sweeney hit a line drive past a young 1st baseman with one of those minus 8,10,11 whatever bats. The 1st baseman is alive today only because that line drive just nicked his ear instead of hitting him between the eyes. Playing on the small field he was about 60 feet away and his glove never moved! You had to be there, to get the full impact! I’m not sure that the metal bat is not even more deadly at the younger age groups where some kids are much more physically mature and talent levels can be a much greater distance apart. And from what I’m told, where the bats are not strictly regulated.

No matter what the insurance statistics read, more balls hit hard increases the risk of serious injury, especially to pitchers. At any age! How close are the pitchers in the 10 year old league? Don’t we all know what is going to happen at some point. Just because we haven’t been burnt yet, should we continue to play with fire?

Regarding the popularity of the game….

Since baseball made the switch to metal bats, Baseball has gone from being recognized as America’s Game to fighting for survival in some parts of the country. Not blaming metal bats for that, but that has happened during the era of the metal bat. Maybe it’s possible the wood bat would help baseball regain some popularity among our youth.
T Texan1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Dear old Dad:
With the present system, colleges could not financially switch to wood bats. Major League baseball would have to subsidize the colleges, which they have no intention of doing.


Ummm, excuse me but I don't recall the MLB subsidizing colleges back before metal bats came along...
S Scorekeeper100+ posts
No animosity here, just thinking too. ;-)

quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
However, I also believe that if those insurance statisticians spent as much time as I did watching baseball the rates would quickly go up.


That road goes both ways. I’m not saying you’re thinking is at all wrong, but perhaps if you spent more time in the business of evaluating risk, you might see things differently too.

quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
Most here prefer the wood bat! For a variety of reasons. That’s good enough for me!


Hear Hear!

quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:No matter what the insurance statistics read, more balls hit hard increases the risk of serious injury, especially to pitchers. At any age! How close are the pitchers in the 10 year old league? Don’t we all know what is going to happen at some point. Just because we haven’t been burnt yet, should we continue to play with fire?


PGStaff, why is it so difficult to accept that there are a lot of people with a lot more experience in the field of risk analysis who know more about the significance of the risk than you or I? I daresay its very much more likely you can judge the potential of a given ball player than I can, but I doubt you could do a detailed analysis of the work flow in a business, then program a computer to most efficiently make changes.

Our perceptions aren’t the best way to judge reality in an environment we aren’t extremely familiar with.

quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
Regarding the popularity of the game….

Since baseball made the switch to metal bats, Baseball has gone from being recognized as America’s Game to fighting for survival in some parts of the country. Not blaming metal bats for that, but that has happened during the era of the metal bat. Maybe it’s possible the wood bat would help baseball regain some popularity among our youth.


LOL!

I doubt there’s much hope in that, but it was a great thought!

I’m sitting here thinking about what other things may have contributed to baseball dropping from the #1 game in America to wherever its at now.

That happened in the era after Curt Flood started all that trouble. BTW, many people don’t know that he lost his case in the Supreme Court, and even more strange, most ot those who do know he lost, don’t know why.

The Supreme Court ruled in favor of baseball 5-3, not on the strength of their case, but on a strange line of thought that combined a liberal use of stare decisis with a belief that baseball simply should stay the way it is.

It also happened in the era of tournaments and showcases. Mebbe we should do away with them too.

That's supposed to be funny. Smile

I suspect the biggest reason it is no longer the #1 sport is, at one time it was so popular, there was no place for it to go but down. From what I know, its still a very popular sport, and one that’s continuing to grow in popularity. Its just that there are other sports people have become drawn too with the advent of modern technology.

I can’t believe either Football, Basketball, and for sure racing would have ever caught up with baseball if all we had was radio and the papers as a way to follow them. As much as I love baseball, it is not the most interesting game to watch.
rz1rz15,000+ posts
A byproduct of sports are injuries and they will happen regardless of changes in equipment. Some people hide behind the safety curtain when their main reason may be to bring back the "old school" game. I think I've stated my personal opinion, but a tongue-thru-cheek comment by rz1 to those safety motivated folks.

If the concern is safety, and people think that wood might reduce the number of line-drive injuries, why not reduce them even more by using pitching machines for kids.

Yes, that is an ignorant statement, but it goes to show how the far apart the opinions can be. From bat manufactures who build the to the bat to it's maximum, to those bleeding hearts who try to put a bubble around the kids. It is an evolving issue that I doubt will ever find a happy medium. Many of those who want to see a change slowly disapear because their kids "age out" of the sport,and many others who will not take a stand because they love to see their kids succeed with metal. There's just no consistency and mass support in the movement while the bat manufacturer puts money into disuading any mounting change in favor of profit. Meanwhile I will sit back and enjoy the game regardless of the bat.
Last edited by rz1
S Scorekeeper100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Texan:
Ummm, excuse me but I don't recall the MLB subsidizing colleges back before metal bats came along...


MLB subsidizing anything other than the players salaries and the owner’s bottom lines? That’s a good one!

More likely, MLB deciding it had to get a cut every time a 10YO kid bought a hat with the logo or a jersey with the name of one of its teams, is a good reason it lost so much popularity!
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
scorekeeper

The fact that you say baseball is "not the most interesting game to watch" says a lot about where your head is at---is it dark there? I would think so

What is you background to be so pontifical other than USAF and league scorekeeper?


Another great statement from you---baseball has lost its popularity---you must be kidding---attendance at MLB and in the minors is at an all time high
Last edited by TRhit
biggerpapibiggerpapi5,000+ posts
Gosh, I feel kinda bad for starting this thread, seems to have made quite a stir. Let me just add this:

quote:
Originally posted by spizzlepop:
Aluminum has its uses....


Makes a pretty good beer can crazy

Keeps leftovers fresh for weeks

Works alright as a rolling pin

Raises a tent 'bout as well as anything
(wood works well too) Big Grin



I always pitch my tent with wood.
T Texan1,000+ posts
Here goes TR again... Obssessed with someone's background, diplomas, etc.

Who is going to set the bar for whom may be pontifical? You, TR?

Lay off SK. I hope he sticks around, he has sparked some good discussion.

Attendance may be at an all time high in raw numbers. But how much of that is due to the fact that the US population is higher?

Do you really believe, TR, that baseball is as popular as it was in the 40's & 50's? I don't.

Is it doing better than it was during that ugly strike garbage time? Yes. But that ain't saying much.

I truly hope that baseball is reaching a wider percentage of the American population. But commie kickball and the like sure seem to be gaining traction with the youngsters.

Would wood bats create a huge jump in interest? Probably not. But it might help some.

Besides, the main reason I personally want wood bats to return is to hear that beautiful sharp crack of the bat - rather than that awful "Ding"!
Last edited by Texan
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
quote:
PGStaff, why is it so difficult to accept that there are a lot of people with a lot more experience in the field of risk analysis who know more about the significance of the risk than you or I? I daresay its very much more likely you can judge the potential of a given ball player than I can, but I doubt you could do a detailed analysis of the work flow in a business, then program a computer to most efficiently make changes.

Our perceptions aren’t the best way to judge reality in an environment we aren’t extremely familiar with.


Scorekeeper, I’m getting a little tired of this debate.


Of course, I know nothing about the statistical analysis done by the insurance industry. Not sure what that work flow stuff is about.either. And did I somehow miss the whole insurance statistic thing to begin with. I thought there was mention in your original post of a group study. There have been other studies that have come up with different statistics. Did you happen to see the HBO special on this topic?

But when we start talking about the invironment (if you’re referring to baseball) I would guess that I’m much more familiar with that invironment than any insurance statistician on earth.

Let me ask you a couple questions.

In 1998 (I think that’s when it was) when the NCAA placed restrictions on the metal bat because of safety factors and the game becoming a farce. Did the insurance companies lower their rates the next year. If not… Why? The game became less dangerous.

Back when the exit speeds WERE proven to be MUCH higher on the -5 to -11 bats, did the insurance industries raise their rates. IF not… Why? Those bats were proven to be more dangerous.

One thing I do know about the insurance companies is this… They make a lot of money off of us. And the more we do, the more they make! I’m not talking about players dying in large numbers, so that it might affect the multi billion dollar insurance industry. I’m talking about the added risk your son or my son has when he is standing 55 feet from contact. I don’t need an insurance company to tell me there’s a difference between a metal or wood bat. I just know I’d prefer the hitter be using a wood bat when my son is on the mound. I’m not interested in what the insurance companies are telling me. I really doubt the insurance companies will even get interested until it starts affecting their profits.

The bottom line here is that many of us would prefer wood bats. I think safety is a big reason, you think it’s not a concern. Is it OK if I keep thinking it is a concern! Even if I might be all wet!

I know the insurance companies know more than I do. Heck, they’re even betting on how old I am when I die! Wonder if they’ll be right? It won’t change the statistics much, but it sure is kind of an important issue to me!
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
One more thought,

I wish they would take all the statistical gathering people and give them a bucket of baseballs and let them throw to hitters using wood and then metal bats. Wonder if that would give any of them a different perspective regarding the amount of danger involved.

Yes this is hypothetical, but my research and that invironment tells me they would all unanimously select the wood bat to throw to the next time.

What do you think, scorekeeper. Think they would care which bat?
T Texan1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
One thing I do know about the insurance companies is this… They make a lot of money off of us.


You're using the same insurance company as me, eh? Big Grin Heck, they're not insuring me anymore. They are just collecting premiums.

Mark Twain said "A banker is someone who loans you an umbrella when the sun is shining, and wants it back the minute it begins to rain." Today, we should add insurers to that statement.

Well, this thread has certainly run the gamut...

All we need to do is work politics in and all the bases will have been covered.
itsinthegameitsinthegame5,000+ posts
Scorekeeper,

You threw out a question - and I answered it very specifically.

I threw you the same question - and nothing came back. Not a thing.
IMO - Just some psychobabble that diverted the conversation away from your inabllity to answer the same question you asked me.

As for "proof" - do you need proof to validate you are getting wet when you are standing in the middle of a thunder storm. LOL

You ask - will my son be "safe" as a result of his transfer to an all-wood bat conference? - What does that question mean? And who made safety the only issue?

Here is the answer - you did.


How about this excerpt you posted:

"Sorry, you don’t want to win the war, you want to be right, and that’s really silly! I suppose if non-wood bats were outlawed tomorrow, and the reason given was something other than safety, you’d want them reinstated!

So, the answer to your question is, I’m not going to detail anything other than what I have already. The reason is, since you don’t seem to be interested in any reason other than safety being why someone opposes metal bats, all it would do is get you more angry with me, and I’m not willing to deal with that."

Do you have to read my posts 100 times to understand it. For your benefit - Metal bats are dangerous and they DISTORT the game. Did you miss that in my last post?

As for you detailing anything - you have to be kidding right? You are giving yourself way too much credit.

You havent detailed a single thing. In fact - you havent even answered a simple question - a question that you initiated.

Answer the question - if you can ask it - you should be able to answer it as well. Or at least try.

P.S. And let me add one more little ditty - even though you addressed yet another psychobabble question to PG - as it concerns risk management. I was the Director of Global Risk Management for one of the largest companies in the world for 8 years.

Tell me all about it scorekeeper.
LOL
Last edited by itsinthegame
S Scorekeeper100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
scorekeeper

The fact that you say baseball is "not the most interesting game to watch" says a lot about where your head is at---is it dark there? I would think so

What is you background to be so pontifical other than USAF and league scorekeeper?

Another great statement from you---baseball has lost its popularity---you must be kidding---attendance at MLB and in the minors is at an all time high


Baseball may well be the most interesting game to watch for you, but I assure you, it isn’t when you ask more than the people on a baseball bulletin board, or for sure the people who sponsor sporting events on TV.

My background is, I pay attention to other things in the world than just baseball. I’m certainly not a member of MENSA, but on the other hand, I don’t often feel its necessary to try to put people down because they simply don’t agree with me either.

Do you possess some skill, award, or other thing that makes your opinion any better than mine, other than being 65 years old and a member of this board since 2002?

Baseball has lost its popularity, relative to other sports. Pardon me if you weren’t able to interpret what I said as meaning that.

Your assuming popularity is purely how many people like it is just as specious as thinking that because a schlub golfer today wins more money in 1 year than Snead did in his entire career, means he’s a better golfer, or that a million dollars today is worth the same thing as a million dollars was in 1930.

Don’t just look at the numbers. Look at the percentage of all sport dollars!

Look folks, I realize I’m the new guy on this bulletin board. I also realize my thinking isn’t always main stream, and for sure I get pretty darn irreverent when it comes to baseball dogma. But I haven’t done a thing here other than to post my opinions, tried to be respectful of others, and I haven’t tried to sell or promote anything for personal gain.

Is there some other requirement for posting on this board?
itsinthegameitsinthegame5,000+ posts
Scorekeeper - why the diversion?

You infer that people are "a lynch mob" - then you play the wounded newcomer? BS

Why not just stick to the original issue?

And why not answer the same question that you so boldly asked me - in a very pointed manner.

I answered your question - with personal information. Why dont you answer mine?

Whats the deal?
itsinthegameitsinthegame5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
I know the insurance companies know more than I do. Heck, they’re even betting on how old I am when I die! Wonder if they’ll be right? It won’t change the statistics much, but it sure is kind of an important issue to me!


IMO - That is a great way of putting it.

Like Bob Dylan once said - "I dont need a weatherman to tell me which way the wind is blowing".

Just stick your head out the ******* window - and you will know.

LOL
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
I would like someone to dispute these facts. Metal bat games (HS 7 Innings) last on average of 2 hours 45 minutes. I know this because I have been a HS coach for many years and attend numerous HS games during the season. Wood bat games last on average 1 hour 50 minutes. I know this as well because I have coached wood bat leagues and have attended numerous wood bat games. In WWBA events games are scheduled for 2 hours. They rarely reach the two hour limit (rarely). I have also seen them last 55 minutes a complete 7 inning game. Now why is this? The ball comes off the bat the same right? Give me a break. Metal bats change the game. Metal bats cheat the game. Metal bats allow for kids to have sucess when they should not have success. If it were up to me they would be banned period for all age levels. Why dont we use a nerf football for youth leagues? Why do middle school basketball players play on a 10'foot goal? If a kid leaves the game because he has to hit with a wood bat like all the other kids then he needs to leave the game. I dont want to hear all this stuff about cost either. You can buy three composite bats for the cost of one nuclear bat. Those three composite bats will last longer than that one metal bat. Maybe when kids started learning to hit with wood they wouldnt break them so often. This year at WWBA event in Ga and Jupiter I dont remember seeing more than one or two bats broken in games. And thats alot of games. I guess we need to stop using car seats for kids you know they sure are expensive.
itsinthegameitsinthegame5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Coach May:
I Metal bats change the game. Metal bats cheat the game. Metal bats allow for kids to have sucess when they should not have success.


CoachMay,

Your very valid point - IMO - are points that the bat manufacturers will never address. They will stay away from this because they know that it is true and that they cannot control it.

Here is what they can control.

They can control lawsuits - and they can control the BS BESR tests - and the "paid for scientists" and they can control PR for their products.

They will always keep the argument against these bats centered on the safety issue - because they can control the BS information that is distributed.

It is all lies - and all you have to do - as PG and you and TR and so many others who "live around the game" attest to - is watch a game with metal bats.

You dont need some high priced piece of equipment to "Prove" that metal bats distort the game and increase the likelihood of serious injury.

All you need is God's gift of sight - and a willingness to speak plainly and tell the truth. IMO.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Scorekeeper, I must admit… If you and I were setting down relaxing and having a beer somewhere. I really don’t think I’d like you at all!

It doesn't make any difference whose opinions are the most correct. It's all about attitude!

That said, I think you can bring a lot of interesting things to this board. I hope you stay around and continue to debate different topics. I’ll try to stay away from those topics whenever possible.
T theEH1,000+ posts
The only reason they went to metal over wood, Was it was cheaper for the LL's around the world to afford to sponser teams.
To many broken wood bats.
Now How are we going to stop it?
It's a billion dollar industry.

Start more wood bat only league's?

Start a recycleing campaign for Alum.

It won't change until we stop buying?


Scorekeeper keep posting?
but be prepared to take your lump's.
It would be quite boring if everybody agreed with everybody.

I do disagree with you about the popularity of baseball.
Baseball is the one and only game that allow's people to dream about making the team?

Explain?
Every player that has ever played the game still think's that if thing's were just a little differant in there live's.
they would of made it to the Big's.

Admit it? You think that to, Don't You?

Even if it is only a Dream to some.
You still think you have are had what it took to be in the show.

That's baseball.
I've never thought I could be a Basketball/Football/Golfer/Tennis/Ect. Player.

Baseball is the only True game that allow's people to believe they have a chance to be successful at it if they just keep working at it.
I know i'm off on one of my Tangent's.
But I love this Game!!
EH
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
I just traded PMs with scorekeeper. I wish he would have posted it rather than PMed me. After much of the same old replying to every quote... He really opened my mind with an idea of how to support wood bat over metal bat.

In respect of the PM system, I'll hope he comes on here and describes his thoughts to everyone. Unlike much of what he has argued, this is very simple and really makes sense. In fact, we've even discussed it in this thread without realizing it's importance.

I'm still not prepared to say I actually like scorekeeper, but this was a stroke of genius even though very simple. I must give credit where credit is due. I think everyone will agree once scorekeeper describes it.

There is no doubt in my mind that anyone wanting to end the metal bat era would see the benifit that scorekeeper outlined to me via PM. And yes it actually does have to do with safety, just looking at it in an easier way to prove it.

Scorekeeper, the floor belongs to you!
cvstingcvsting1,000+ posts
Who $$$ financed $$$ the study that little league put out? Easton, TPX, Rawlings, Worth, or Demarini?
$$$$ $$$$

I think you get my point.

Metal bats were first designed in the 70's for softball and then somehow they unfortunatly got introduced to baseball. I like many others wish they would go away, but I believe there is too much money involved now for that to happen.

CV
T theEH1,000+ posts
I know this is going off on a tangent again.
But has anybody thought about Head and Face protection for pitcher's.
The light weight composite's could be used to fit form a perfect fit armour for the head area.
Chest protector for the heart.
I know that is not tradition?
Not Manly?

Jon Olerud played with a hard shell Baseball hat?
If they made them Cool looking with protection around the eye socket's, temple's, cheek bone's, Ect.
Just a thought!
EH
hokieonehokieone5,000+ posts
EH, I understand the idea, but it's kind of like putting a bullet-proof vest on pitchers, instead of taking the gun away from the batters. It'll likely never happen that pitchers will wear helmets. Peripheral vision issues alone will nix that one.

I tend to think the problem is greatest at upper levels of high school and college ball, where the actually pitching speeds and bat swing speeds are way above the "standards" used for BESR. Easy solution is change the testing standard so that for high school, a 85 mph pitch is hit by an 85 mph swing, and for college, a 90 mph pitch is hit by a 90 mph swing. The approval ratings would be stamped on the bat "HSBESR" and "CBESR", for high school and college.

If the bat manufacturers are required to conform, they'll do it in a heartbeat and the next "Wonderbat" will be on the market within weeks, and if the testing standard is realistic, so be it. I'd even bet dollars to doughnuts the major bat manufacturing players have already done the research and can adjust p.d.q. to the new standards.

As an aside, both of my sons play college ball, both hit in the off season only with wood, and both prefer wood to metal. When they switch to metal as their college season approaches, the initial reaction to the metallic sound is always "Yeeeech".
T theEH1,000+ posts
I agree, My son like's the Wood Bat also.
He seem's to find the sweet spot just fine?
It would have to be designed in a way that doesn't get in the way of your vision, and is light weight.
Just to limit the damage caused by a batted ball to the head.
Form fitted.

It's just something I've been thinking about.
Some sort of Spider web pattern over the eye socket's, cheek bone's, and temple's.
Fitted to a hard shell hat.
They wouldn't even know they had it on.
Just something to think about.
EH
rz1rz15,000+ posts
quote:
The only reason they went to metal over wood, Was it was cheaper for the LL's around the world to afford to sponser teams.

EH,
I would say that was one reason, but the main reason may be that one bat manufacturer who did not have a nitch in the wood bat market had a dream that they could go out of the box and create a new product. We all talk about going back to wood, but never once have I seen the "history of the metal bat" brought into the conversation. Like all other advancements in the world today, I think it was driven by profit and customer demand. Those are two factors that a grassroot rebellions will not stop without the help of "eyeopening drop-dead" statistics that cannot be argued, or financing from a Ralph Nader type group. As much as I love wood I don't see it changing accross the board, and in the meantime I can get my wood fix, at least in my area, in the college summer leagues and home talent venues.
Last edited by rz1
T theEH1,000+ posts
The first reason they went to metal over wood was to save $$, By not having to buy wood bats all the time.
LL's did not have a lot of resources.
Anything to cut cost.
Now it's a whole blown out billion dollar industrie.
That's capitalisum at it's finest.

Like I said, Start more wood bat only league's.
Supply and demand will make the change for us???
EH
S spizzlepop1,000+ posts
EH-
I've stated this opinion in a previous thread, but perhaps it merits repeating here.
Taking the approach of armoring up pitchers, you can target reduction of a limited type of injury (TBI, facial trauma, etc). IOW, only where the protection is worn.
The wood bat approach, as PG pointed out, reduces the frequency of hard hit balls back at pitchers, thereby reducing the risk for ALL potential batted ball injuries.
T theEH1,000+ posts
I'm talking preventing all injury's to pitcher's.
It make's no differance if it's metal are wood.
If the ball has your name on it??

All Faceal/Head type injury's.
Pitcher's are vunerable just by the fact there so close,
And there out of position after the pitch.

I'm talking top quality stuff hear.
State of the art technology.
Form fitting.
With NO LAUGHING??

You know like make it Manditory.
Just like the catcher has to have a cup/ a mask/ a chest protector, leg guards.

Anyway think about it?
EH
rz1rz15,000+ posts
Why not eliminate the pitcher, let him program a computer generated pitch with a hand held that has a +/- success factor. Then he can hide behind the machine and field a ball if it comes his way. Wink

Come on people. Are we becomming that soft that after over 100 years of playing the game we want to protect the sissy's on the mound. Are the corners next? Unfortunatly, injuries are a byproduct of sports and this seems to be a kneejerk reaction to the dislike of Metal bats. There will not be a competitive pitcher alive that will wear protection that will give the batter any more advantage that he already has. Armor can protect you but with protection comes performance limitations. We talk about pitching as a whole being less than it was, this will make it better?
Last edited by rz1
T theEH1,000+ posts
Well to counter that.
Maybe the Pitcher will be able to pitch a little faster??
Less Stress of trying to be in a defensive position after the pitch.
They could really whip it??

Being a sissy has nothing to do with it.
Where talking, being able to take a shot to the head.
And not missing his next start in the rotation.

You have to admit some pitcher's are not in position after there pitch to properly defend themselves agains't a come backer.
EH
DO Dear old Dad100+ posts
I think I agree with PGStaff and Coach May about getting rid of the high compression bats, but I still don't see the difference between a regular aluminum bat and a wood bat. If more balls are hit hard from an aluminum, but not any harder than the best wood hit, is this a problem?

Wood is very expensive. The change to aluminum was a sound idea originally. The ability to improve the aluminum bat to dynamic proportions has been the problem. But it does seem like the aluminum bat is here to stay.

My son played on a very good summer and fall team last year with all wood bat competition. The team stocked composite bats that the players used about 90% of the time. The problem was that the bats became dead after awhile and had to be replaced. In fact, they never seemed to match wood for power even when they were new. I tried to get my son to use wood but the wood bats would break. He averaged a bat a week. I gave up on it due to the cost. Had I been persistent I would have spent well over a thousand dollars in bats. If every hitter used wood exclusively the added cost would climb to over ten thousand dollars. Travel baseball is expensive enough as it is without the cost of replacing wood bats.

Coach May posted earlier about keeping wood at all levels. He mentioned other sports like football and basketball not changing for the youth leagues. But they do modify all sports for the kids. Socker fields are smaller and so is the ball. Basketball rims are lower for the younger kids in many leagues. H.S. basketball uses a smaller court than the pros do. Youth football starts kids out with flag football. When my son was in tee-ball they used safety balls. I don't see the problem with modifying the sport from is pure adult form.

My son played in Marietta and Jupiter last year and Coach May is 100% correct when he mentions how quickly the games get played. The best pitchers from around the country are there and runs can be tough to come by. In Jupiter, I heard there was only one home run hit the entire tournament. And that was 80 teams each playing at least 4 games. I don't know how PG is rating kids power when there is none to rate. But, does it matter that the games finish faster? Is that better for the players? My son's team went 3-1 and did not advance due to tiebreaker rules. They were as talented as most teams there yet only had one hit in their first two games. I'm sure lots of teams had low hit totals. This may work when you have the best kids in the country trying to get noticed by scouts, but do we really want our youth leagues becoming more one dimensional.

One last thing, when my dad was younger and working, all the company softball leagues were fastpitch leagues. They all virtually died out because the game became a game dominated by the pitchers. Men now play slow pitch softball and everyone is more involved and the games are more fun. The same thing applies to youth baseball. Kids already hate playing in the outfield because there is so little action. Why make it worse by taking action away from the infielders as well.
rz1rz15,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by theEH:
Well to counter that.
Maybe the Pitcher will be able to pitch a little faster??
Do pitchers throw harder during pen that in a game? A good pitcher doesn't even factor in that "what if I get hit" mentality during his "me vs him" approach on the mound.
Less Stress of trying to be in a defensive position after the pitch.
They could really whip it??

Being a sissy has nothing to do with it.
That was tongue-n-cheek. My son also a pitcher is always compared to a kicker by his teammates
Where talking, being able to take a shot to the head.
And not missing his next start in the rotation.

You have to admit some pitcher's are not in position after there pitch to properly defend themselves agains't a come backer.
Maybe they should work on that part of their game
EH
Last edited by rz1
T Texan1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Dear old Dad:
The team stocked composite bats that the players used about 90% of the time. The problem was that the bats became dead after awhile and had to be replaced. In fact, they never seemed to match wood for power even when they were new.

The same thing applies to youth baseball. Kids already hate playing in the outfield because there is so little action. Why make it worse by taking action away from the infielders as well.



Personally, I haven't seen composite bats going dead. Nor have I seen them hit distances appreciably different that regular wood.

I still don't understand why some folks keep saying wood bats would hurt youth ball. For many, many years there were no metal bats. And youth baseball did just fine with those wood bats.
DO Dear old Dad100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Texan:
quote:
Originally posted by Dear old Dad:

The same thing applies to youth baseball. Kids already hate playing in the outfield because there is so little action. Why make it worse by taking action away from the infielders as well.



I still don't understand why some folks keep saying wood bats would hurt youth ball. For many, many years there were no metal bats. And youth baseball did just fine with those wood bats.


Texan, the undeniable fact is, that wood bats are currently available for every kid out there and always have been. Aluminum has become the bat of choice for kids because it doesn't break, stings less and you make solid contact more often. These seem like positive things to me that have made the game more fun and more affordable for everyone. So yes, taking away aluminum bats would hurt youth baseball, how much it would hurt we don't know.

This whole discussion started despite the fact that there is no evidence anywhere that aluminum bats are more dangerous than wood bats. Like I said earlier, I have seen many kids get hurt by a thrown ball, but not one, ever, by a batted ball.

The only reason kids get hurt in baseball is because if something can happen, it will happen. And that is the risk we all take when we wake up in the morning. Baseball is not inherently dangerous, as the statistics have shown.
T Texan1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Dear old Dad:
Texan, the undeniable fact is, that wood bats are currently available for every kid out there and always have been. Aluminum has become the bat of choice for kids because it doesn't break, stings less and you make solid contact more often. These seem like positive things to me that have made the game more fun and more affordable for everyone. So yes, taking away aluminum bats would hurt youth baseball, how much it would hurt we don't know.

This whole discussion started despite the fact that there is no evidence anywhere that aluminum bats are more dangerous than wood bats. Like I said earlier, I have seen many kids get hurt by a thrown ball, but not one, ever, by a batted ball.

The only reason kids get hurt in baseball is because if something can happen, it will happen. And that is the risk we all take when we wake up in the morning. Baseball is not inherently dangerous, as the statistics have shown.


The undeniable fact is that many leagues required use of aluminum and forbade wood. Unless they have changed, LL Inc. did not allow wood. The undeniable fact is that many dads choose metal for their sons because they can hit the ball farther more often with metal than with wood.

Having been around a lot of older youth players the last few years (13 & up), they all LOVE wood bat tourneys.

Stings??? I have heard far more players yelping about stingers with aluminum than wood.

More afforable? When they are charging $200-$350 for these metals? You can get a good wood composite for $70-$150 and it will last as long as metal. Metal bats start going dead in six months.

We'll just have to disagree on what the impact of going back to wood would be on youth ball.

You are absolutely right that every sport carries risk, just as does living. And how to limit those risks "reasonably" makes for interesting discussions, as we have seen here.
DO Dear old Dad100+ posts
Texan,

I looked at the Little League website and thay do allow wood bats. Little League approved ones only. I have not heard of any Youth league that outlaws wood bats.

The issue here seems to be those explosive and high priced Scandium\Titanium bats. And we do agree that they should be discarded. The only aluminum bat I support is the original one that is very similar to wood in its reactions. They cost about $65.00.

I won't buy a fancy bat for my son because the weather doesn't get warm enough here in N.J. to use them until the season is almost over.

And I do agree with you that wood is catching on to some degree. At least with the teens. But those kids are the few kids who have continued to play baseball into their teens. We all know the drop off rate at the age of 13.
BeezerBeezer1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
The #3 reason is it’s the equipment used at the highest level. I don’t know, but in other sports where a ball is hit, do they use different equipment in high school and college than they do at the professional level? If so, please let me know.


As a side note, the baseballs themselves are different at the various levels. And yes, the footballs are different as well. Basketball, I'm not sure but those may be slightly smaller as well.
Last edited by Beezer
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
MidloDad you make some good points. But maybe kids would learn how to play the game if we went to wood? You know hitting behind runners , learning to properly sac bunt , learning to hit the ball where it is pitched? If a kid hooks around an outside fastball and pulls it with metal not only will he not break his bat he might get a hit. Try this with wood and see what happens. Getting sawed off on the inside pitch with metal can produce a basehit and often does but what happens with wood? If kids hit with wood all the time you would see the runs produced gradually increase and you would see kids become better hitters over time. I for one believe the game of baseball was designed to incorporate moving runners with ground balls behind the runner at second with less than two outs , moving runners with the sac bunt etc etc. What we have now is gorilla ball with no sense of situational hitting. When a kid pays 100 bucks for a bat and goes in the cage and he learns to not pull the outside pitch because he doesnt want to have to ask for another bat. With metal there are no immediate consequences. In Jupiter and other WWBA events you have dominate pitching on just about every team. Great pitching is always going to dominate great hitters. I for one just believe the game is much better when played the way it was designed to be played. Metal bats are not realistic to the game. The slow rollers off the wood are challenging for the infielders , bunt defense , bunt offense , being solid in the cut game , throwing strikes and not allowing walks , moving runners it all becomes much more important with the wood. JMHO
shortstopmomshortstopmom1,000+ posts
Whoooahhh doggy!

Alrighty fellas,....how about a 10 minute breather break???
The cigar smoke in here is gettin' pretty thick!

Refreshments out in the hall.
Bar open.
Bandaids available for over typed fingers.

( felt compelled to get a little female posting on this forum. Didn't want ya to think us ladies weren't paying attention. Wink )

Alrighty then,..now that everyone has had a good stretch and is refreshed,

please,......

carry on.
Last edited by shortstopmom
S Scorekeeper100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
Scorekeeper, the floor belongs to you!


PGStaff, Thank you for the encouraging words. I’ll do my best to explain what we were talking about.

You were explaining that the issue of safety is really important to you, and I was trying to explain that its important to me too. But I think its important that when someone is trying to get something accomplished, they try to do it in the most efficient and easiest way possible. And, going after the metal bats was ok, but I thought there was a much less resistant way to go about it than how often a P gets seriously injured by a batted ball. The reason for that is, its so rare, the numbers get gaudy.

I’ll quote out of the PM here to make it a little less typing for me. ;-)

In fact, I actually feel bad because I believe there would have been a lot more progress made getting rid of the “devil” bats, if it weren’t being attacked from so many different directions. For instance, claiming that it would be a huge benefit to the arms of pitchers because they’d have to throw fewer pitchers is a valid safety issue, and I believe not only is it a very good argument, there’s a much better chance of proving it scientifically.

In fact, I believe its much more important as a safety issue than getting hit by a batted ball is. Those numbers you quoted about runs were wonderful, and I think very meaningful numbers. Trouble is, you need more numbers and from varying other sources to convince these people that changes need to be made!

That’s the sum and substance of it. There’s all kinds of evidence of the growing number of pitcher’s arm injuries! There’s been TV special after TV special about it. There’s printed articles about it all over the place. There’s studies by several respected groups, from ASMI, to LLI, to the Orthopedic Surgeons. Also, every individual authority from coaches, to players, to team doctors say the same thing too.

What’s interesting is, although all those different groups, reports, and individuals pretty much all say a lot of different things, they all have one thing in common, and that’s saying OVERUSE IS A BAD THING!

Now we have a good ol’ fashioned handle everyone can grab on to, and agree on. At least I don’t know of anyone who says overuse isn’t an issue.

Now that there’s an undisputed safety issue, how can we prove it?

PGStaff, with what I suppose was only a few minutes effort because the data is available, quoted some numbers that certainly caught my attention.

Here are some of the scores in the 8 team BCS Finals with all high quality teams and pitching. 8-7, 10-8, 16-5, 11-2, 10-3, 8-7, 10-3, 7-6, and the Championship game was 10-9 Midland Redskins defeating East Cobb. In pool play (4 games each team)… Midland scored 27 runs, Savanah Chain 27 runs, East Cobb 35 runs, Richmond County 24 runs. ABD Bulldogs gave up 30 runs in 4 games, SW Florida gave up 31. The lowest runs allowed by any of the 8 teams was 16 or an average of 4 runs a game.

Then some of the same teams also played in the WWBA Championship (Wood Bats) East Cobb allowed 4 runs in 5 games, Midland allowed 3 runs in 5 games, the Florida Bombers allowed 2 runs in 5 games. Anyway, overall just less offense with the Wood Bats!

those aren’t guesses, they’re real, verifiable numbers! That makes them worth their weight in gold to scientists, and I have to guess those numbers are just the tip of the iceberg. There are more and more tournaments every year from 7YOs to college players where wood bats are used.

The control numbers would be the regular seasons where metal is the norm, and that could easily be compared to wood. And if there was some question about the veracity of the numbers because the tournaments were played with better pitching, or whatever, there are still easily enough metal bat tournaments with virtually the same level of talent that could be used to rein in that controversy.

Enough already, hopefully you get the idea.

Do bats that don’t conform to the OBR standards present more of a danger than those that do? Yes!

What is that danger? The danger is to the arms of pitchers.

Is that danger significant? Yes, and its verifiable simply by counting the number of reported injuries and comparing it to the number of possible injuries.

Who says so? Virtually every leading authority in the world.

Can that be proved empirically? Yes. The numbers are available, but only need someone to gather them.

How’s that?
S Scorekeeper100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by theEH:
I know this is going off on a tangent again.
But has anybody thought about Head and Face protection for pitcher's.
The light weight composite's could be used to fit form a perfect fit armour for the head area.
Chest protector for the heart.
I know that is not tradition?
Not Manly?


I can see that not too many posters here follow “kiddyball”.

Last year when the 12YO pitcher was put in a coma after taking a line drive to the heart, all hell broke loose in the youth baseball community! Everybody and his brother was in an uproar!

See http://politics.nexcess.net/pressrelease/2006/06/assemb...trick_diegnan_2.html
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1666973/posts

Among others, one of the things that quenched most of the bloodlust was when it was sown that the number of circumstances that had to be spot on in order to have had that happen, was so astronomically high, it became statistically insignificant.

FI, the player had to be hit at exactly the right moment when the heart was in a specific state. It also had to happen at the exact velocity needed to cause a heart to stop. It went on and on until the whole issue pretty much dried up and went away.

Is it over for that child and his family? No, and it will never be. But the chances of that same accident happening again are so high no one even calculated it.

But during that very tumultuous time, you wouldn’t believe what people were doing. I read somewhere that the sale of chest protectors and Kevlar vests almost tripled. Sports outlets were reporting being sold out of hockey masks, to say the least, things went crazy for a while.

Some local leagues went so far as to move the pitcher’s distance back, contrary to the organization’s rules the league was in. And one place I read about tied this. They moved home plate back so the distance to 1st and 3rd increased by some 6’, while the distance from 1st to 2nd, and from 2nd to 3rd remained the same.
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