Little League Softball

while I can agree with you in concept the story is way more involved then just you lost now go home.

 

There has to some respect for the game, I read 2 or 3 different sites today about this and it is pretty obvious that there was no attempt to win. I personally have no issue resting the starters, use a different pitcher and so forth but I feel like this went way beyond that.

 

For LL international (an organization I have little to no time for) to make this ruling it had to be bad and obvious. LL has ignored many different cheating organizations at many different levels (local, state and national) so for them to act on this is shocking to me. I guess at the end there is just no bottom for how dumb people can be!

This is all the talk around Portland and there is no shortage of people who will argue both sides. For me, it's purely a sportsmanship issue. I don't have a problem with not playing your best players, but to continually bunt for every at bat, is pretty low and shows a lack of respect for the game itself. We're talking about a game for little girls. These aren't paid profession players, but kids looking to do their best and make memories. It shows a very low regard for the other teams and the organization as a whole (and I am not a fan of LL). How can you teach kids about doing their best and playing with sportsmanship if the adults aren't modeling the behavior?

I have never done anything similar, nor would I, but I think the coach's job is to win the tournament. If that's what he felt he needed to do to win, I don't have a problem with it.

The Washington team made a mockery of the game. It shows a lack of integrity. The team should have been disqualified. The coaches should be suspended for a couple of years or banned.

Why create a set of rules that dis-advantages a team for winning a game, then punish a team that figures a way around such a crazy rule?

The real losers in this are those girls from Washington. They were only doing what was asked of them by their coaches. Had the coaches been big enough to actually play to win, those girls would be in the semis instead of heading home.

For once LLI actually did the right thing.  The West (Washington) coach clearly violated the Little League pledge.  Yes, he has the right to rest his best players, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't "strive to win".  By constantly bunting and encouraging his players to swing at bad pitches it was clear he meant to lose so as not to have to face Iowa (Central) again.

 

Little League Pledge:

 

I trust in God
I love my country
And will respect its laws
I will play fair
And strive to win
But win or lose
I will always do my best

 

If his team was as good as he thinks he did not need to throw the game.

There's nothing wrong with starting the back end of the roster when you know you're going to advance regardless of the end result of the game. But you play to win. It lacks integrity to tell kids to lose on purpose.

As a coach, I could never instruct a team - a group of men or women, let alone a group of boys or girls, to lose on purpose.  I could certainly see resting some starters if the outcome was not going to affect team's standing in a tournament or in league, etc.  In fact, this is a great opportunity to give some non-starters a chance to show themselves.  Then, you instruct them to act in a manner that assures losing?  No way.  I'm looking for ways to give those players every chance to succeed.  That is why they are playing.

 

Also, I personally could never tell a team that we're better off losing this game so we play an easier team next game.  I always want to send the message that you should be confident and relish the opportunity to play against the best, to beat the best.  Sure it's human nature to look ahead and assess your chances against possible future opponents and recognize that odds are more in your favor to play a weaker opponent but it sure as heck isn't the message I would convey as a coach.

 

As far as the action taken by LL, I applaud it.  FoxDad brought up a great point listing the LL pledge.  When there are seven short lines and two include "I will strive to win" and "always do my best", it becomes clear that the coach held that pledge in total disregard...  not the resting players part but the constant bunting, including with two strikes, etc.

Sorry to quote such a classic like "Bring it On"....but it does seem appropriate!

 

"I define being the best as competing against the best there is out there and beating them."

 

Is there strategy in softball, YES, but this wasn't strategy it was just plain cheating!  These 12 year old girls received the message from the adults in charge of them that you can bend the rules to suit what's best for you, regardless of sportsmanship, or integrity.  After all, rules are just suggestive guidelines, they don't REALLY apply if you don't want them to. 

 

The youth of today is what WE, the adults, are making them.

Im in the camp of, there is nothing wrong playing your bench players.  Heck as a coach in a tourney like this you live for these type of games.  Rest your starters, rest your pitchers, and give those that don't normally see playing time some reps on the field.  

 

However, you still play the game the way it is meant to be played.  You don't bunt every player and you don't attempt to loose on purpose.  In addition to having the playoff game they should have suspended the HC for that game.

Give me the rules, all the rules and then don't change the rules!

 

I have mixed feelings about this. I have no problem with starting the "bench" players but coach shouldn't have bunted every time, etc.

 

On another note, how many of us have been on a team when we were behind and time was running out and we needed to get a fresh inning to have a chance to win? the coach would have our batter(s), bunt and step on the plate for an automatic out. I know, that's different but very similar except it was done the whole game and not just one inning.

Cheating!! Really??  I think you're getting a little carried away.  What RULES were specifically broken?  I wouldn't instruct my team to lay down, but this coach determined that it was the best way for his team to advance.  Did he make the tournament rules?  Maybe he was certain that his team couldn't beat the other team, and this was the method it would take to move on.  Again.  Not saying I would do it, but I am not going to sit here in a glass house and throw stones.

Ryno - the coach may not have violated any "rules", but he clearly violated the LL Pledge.  He crossed the line by trying to game the system.

 

More importantly - what message did he send to his team?

 

Again - he's free to start the bench players if he so chooses, but to encourage the team to throw the game in order to play a supposedly weaker opponent is way out of line.

Ryno, what if you were the other team?  Wouldn't you have felt "cheated" out of a game?  Teams enter tourneys to play against other teams, the operative word being PLAY.  Can you just imagine the look on the other teams 12 year old faces when they realized they weren't actually going to get to play?

 

Not only did that coach rob two teams of a pool play game, but he purposely rigged the game so it was impossible for his team to win.  Knowing the outcome of a game, prior to the start, that two groups paid to participate in is cheating.

LL has a mockery of the game rule in their tourney rules.  I don't have all the information right in front of me but I believe the example used to explain the rule in their rule book as well as in the umps guides is specifically playing a game to loose to help out an opponent.  Which in essence is what happened here. By loosing they helped an opponent to make the playoffs.

I just don't agree with throwing a game, not concerned over the rules. it seems very obvious to me the intent was not only to lose but to do so in without scoring. the way I read the story was if they lost and scored more then 3 runs the Iowa team would advance. Coming into the game they were undefeated and scoring runs by the truck load. Multiple girls apparently, according to reports as many as half, did nothing but bunt attempts for the entire game regardless of the count, they put up exactly 0 hits and were shut out...IMO you don't need a smoking gun to convict someone when there appears to be a massive amount of data that says this game was played in the wrong way for all the wrong reasons.

 

I imagine the special play-off game between them and Iowa was quite an intense game for 12u softball!

 

Are you aware that the Washington organization actually put out a press release sating the girls themselves were not responsible for the events of the game and in question and asked for people to not hold the organization or the payers responsible for the coaches actions?

Where were the umpires?

 

Who let this unsportsmanlike behavior go on for an entire game with no warnings, ejections, or forfeits?

 

There is no way I would stand behind the plate and umpire a pretend game that was obviously being thrown.

 

 

I still believe calling it "cheating" is a big stretch, and I would like to hear the coach's side of the story.  Were the ramifications stated clearly so that the coach would know his actions could cost his team? I doubt it.  Also, convict him of what?  What specific rule did he violate?  He disrespected the game?  What specific rule is that?  If there was no specific rule, how can he be convicted?  I still think it is a joke.  If there was an issue, it should have been brought forth during the game!  Where was the in game protest? 

The difference being that your example is a team trying to win, not intentionally lose.

 

Sitting your starters or moving players around is fine - but you let them play their hardest, to the best of their abilities, and still try to win.

I was the President of our LL for a year.  There is absolutely NO WAY we would have ever considered throwing a game....FOR ANY reason.  We could only take 12 kids onto the "All Star" and trust me, there were plenty of other kids whose parents thought that their kid also deserved a spot on the team.  I had to explain to at least a half dozen that the team was selected by league coaches and administrators.  Some took it well....some not so much.  I can't imagine what would have happened if we had pulled a stunt like that.  First of all, it's not fair to the league, the community or especially the players and parents....who by that point in the tourney have spent ALOT of money traveling around to get thru the district, state and regional tourney.  I can assure you that no coach we had would have made it more than one inning before we would have had parents of our own team coming out of the stands to tell him what they thought of his gameplan....but I think more importantly, I as the President would never have put a guy in position to coach who would have ever considered pulling crap like this....I took too much pride in the league....evidently the folks in Washington didn't feel the same way.  Funny that the league officials from Washington basically threw the coach under the bus....after the fact.  Where were they when the game was going on??

In the LL tournament Rules and Guidelines in the pool play section:

 

P. When a manager or coach instructs his/her players to play poorly for any reason, such as, but not limited to the following, such action may result in the manager’s removal by the Umpire-in-Chief, and/or removal of the manager, coach(es) and/or team from further tournament play. NOTE: This policy is not intended to prevent a manager from using lesser-skilled players more frequently if he or she wishes, even if such action may result in losing a game:

  1. losing a game to effect a particular outcome in a Pool Play Format tournament;

 

Why didn't this happen during the game?  If  it was so egregious, why didn't the Umpire in Chief make the determination?  That's what the rule calls for.  Not some made up, after the fact, "Oh well, we'll just have these two teams play each other."  Seems like they are just making it up as they go along, and that is never good.

There was a protest lodged during the game. It was denied by the local LL officials in attendance. That is when the President from the Iowa LL contacted LL International directly. LL International overruled the local LL officials and instituted the 1-game play off.

 

From The Oregonian newspaper article yesterday: "Iowa appealed to Little League International after the officials at the Little League Softball World Series failed to act. Little League International agreed with Iowa and forced a playoff between Snohomish and Iowa."

I can't really speak to what happened during the game. The umpire in chief could have ejected the manager, but that is all that he has power over.  Everything else has to be done by the tournament committee. Actually - I'm pretty sure the tournament committee can't declare a forfeit, that has to come from headquarters.

 

They may have made up the consequence that isn't really called for in the rules, but it is certainly a lesser punishment than just kicking the team out of the tournament. The team was still allowed to play and settle it on the field.

Fair enough.  I just don't think you should just make up consequences in a tournament of this magnitude. 

It sounds like the other consequence would have been to kick the coaches out. I just read a follow-up piece in our local paper about how and why this transpired. This is the most thorough article I've read and it sheds a little more light on what might have been the thought process of the Washington coaches. It sounds like, although they clearly violated some rules and the spirit of the competition, there may have been an actual mathematical incentive behind the decision and it wasn't just to keep the Iowa team out of the semis. Sounds like LL is looking at a tournament format change to keep this from happening again in the future.

http://www.oregonlive.com/spor....html#incart_m-rpt-1

In LL you lodge a protest during the game.  Game play is suspended until a ruling is received by the UIC.  If you do not like the ruling you can lodge another protest up to the region.  If you do not like their ruling another protest can be lodged to the protest committee in Williamsport.  While the protests are being ruled on game play does not take place.  

 

For the most part protests must take place before the next play.  If you do not protest before the next play you loose your right to protest.  There are somethings that can be protested after the game is over.  This would most likely fall into that category.  These things are interruptions of non game affecting rules. Normally you would protest things like an ineligible player (if you found out about it after the game) or lack of minimum playing time for players after the game.

 

The Williamsport protest committee is the only body during the LL tourney that can declare a forfeit.  They avoid doing that if they can.

Root Cause - Poorly written rules. 

 

Was at Disney many moons ago at a AAU National event.  Rules were Top 2 teams and wildcards advance with the tiebreaker being "X teams with the most wins advance and if that is tie then least runs allowed". 

 

Then they have 5 team and 4 team pools.  We were in a 5 team pool with 3 teams that went 3-1.  We lost the tiebreaker to the other two teams but had given up less runs in 4 games than a bunch of 2-1 teams in other pools and we had more wins than all but 2 teams advancing out of 32 to advance but were told we were going home for being 3rd in the pool.

 

After an hour of arguing with the local AAU guy about them ruling us out he was about to send us home.  He began filling out the bracket when I slammed my hand down on the paper (Still paper & pen then) and said - Call the National Guy or call the police.  He looked at me close and realized I wasn't kidding and called the National Guy and handed me the phone.  I explained the deal and he said put the other guy on the line and I could hear him ask...is anything he said wrong?  The local guy said ....well no.  And then I heard...What is wrong with you?  Put them in and fix your rules.

 

A lot of those guys know what they intend but don't know how to translate it into words that are consistent with the intent.  AAU was particularly poor at it.  Was at 3 State or National tournaments over the years where the rules were changed in the middle after games had been played. 

The coach instructed the players to break the LL integrity rules. "I will always do my best."

I imagine the special play-off game between them and Iowa was quite an intense game for 12u softball!

 

ill bet it was .... for the parents. I'll bet there were several cases of horse's behind-itis displayed by parents in the stands.

 

Not all umpires are quality, knowledgeable umpire. LL doesn't take the best for the LLWS. It's a good ole boy network and tenure system. The worst umpire from our LL has done anything from districts to the LLWS every year.

Our LLs 11yo team lost a three way tie breaker in districts. The lost the runs allowed ratio because by mercying a team they shut out they lost two innings in the equation. Had they not mercied them and shut them out for two more innings (pitcher had a 4 inn 12k perfect game) they would have advanced.

Did anybody actually see the game that Washington supposedly tanked?  If the coach called the game to lose it then I'd have a serious problem with that.  If he ran out his subs and put a girl on the mound that hardly every pitches, that's any coach's prerogative.  I'd prefer to reserve judgment until I know how the game was called by the coach.

Had I known what was going on, I would have been in the stands. It's only a short drive from home. Alas, I was not there. However, here is a statement, printed in the Seattle Times, from the Snohomish LL President. He seems to concede that there was a decision by the coach to try not to win.

 

Snohomish Little League president Jeff Taylor, who first defended coach Fred Miller, expressed regret Tuesday in a statement.

 

“Our coach was faced with a decision that, in the bubble of intense competition, appeared to him to be in the best interest of our team,” he said. “In hindsight, it is very likely he would have made a different choice. Though the decision that Coach Miller made did not violate the letter of the rules, I can see abundant evidence that it was not in line with the spirit of the game.

We hope that everyone remembers that the decisions that have placed our team under scrutiny were decisions made by the coach. Our young ladies had no role in that. In fact, they have fought their hearts out to be in the World Series and nothing should take away from that accomplishment.”

That's pretty vague.  No reference to the actual decisions made.  Here's the thing, if he's calling the game outside of the spirit of the game, I can understand the anger.  If He saw an opportunity to get girls some time that they won't see otherwise, this guy is getting killed for nothing.  If the thought process was, "I'll run out all my subs and put my 5th arm on the mound and let the chips fall where they may", I'd be fine with that.  If he ran out his subs and called a game that puts them in a position that they couldn't be successful, that's a different scenario all together.

From what I have read no one is vilifying the coach for playing his bench players.  Where the issues have come in was his not allowing his hitters to hit and having them bunt on every pitch and telling the other players (not as strong hitters) to swing at every pitch and avoid making contact.  This is a team that scored a ton of runs in pool play but went 0-for at the plate intentionally in the last game.

I disagree.  He was instructing his team to advance in the tournament.  That is not "Cheating".

I didn't see the game which is why I was asking.  The above is really conjecture and I wouldn't know unless I saw the game.  I saw a play by play that somebody posted (too long to post here) on another site and I didn't take the above from what I saw.  It's entirely possible that's exactly what happened.  Lots of ground outs which could have been attempted bunts but it could have also been garden variety ground outs by his subs.  I would just like to have seen the game before making judgments.  Truth is I would only have a big problem with what he did if he ran his subs out there and didn't give them the same opportunities to succeed that he'd give his starters.  You let those girls play the game to the best of their abilities.