Marking Launch angles in batting cages?

This thread is after all talking about 14 yo trying to hit a round ball with round bat.  I have a hard time getting my 14 yo to consistently be a student and he supposedly practices that 5 days a week for 6 hours.  I know he can't consistently get the optimum launch angle off of his bat quite yet. I do not deny Kris Bryant and Ted Williams try/tried to elevate the ball for HRs.  They are elite hitters with grown man strength. I don't believe a 14 yo will consistently have the functional strength to do this consistently at an optimum launch angle.  For my 2020 I just want the bat to stay through the zone long enough for line drives into the gaps, good things tend to happen for him if that occurs.  I also found this tends not to cloud his mind with over analysis during games. 

I also have this same line drive approach with my 2017 who does hit HRs.  His HRs are big boy power alley and not 337ft over the LF fence. He is a lot closer to man strength than my 2020.

I hesitate to post on hitting threads. Hitting threads can be so, well I can't even find the words to describe it. I guess it goes back to all the threads on rotational, linear etc etc.

 Some kids are simply born with the ability to time it up. Some are simply born with the ability to barrel the baseball consistently. Some have a natural swing path and many do not. It is a lot like throwing motions. Some are born with a natural ability to throw. It just flows. No one had to teach them it's natural to them. Some have to be taught and trained to do what comes natural to others.

I believe the best swing path is the one that gets you in the zone the quickest, allows you to stay in the zone the longest, gets there with a slight uppercut, and is on time. BP for hitters is easy. It's quite honestly an ability to reproduce that sweet swing over and over. Almost every pitch is barreled up hit with authority. The vast majority of the balls hit are either line drives or deep fly balls. Ground balls are smoked but rare.

The ground ball has been taught for years at the HS level. Your dealing with a wide variety of skill levels. Your dumbing down is what your doing. You don't take the time to teach individuals you cookie cutter approach it. The theory was created in order to give your team a better opportunity to win at the expense of the actual development of your players. This is how it was explained to me when I first started coaching at the HS level.

Fly Ball - It takes one player making one play to record an out. Most players are incapable of leaving the yard. Fly balls result in outs the vast majority of the time.

Ground Balls - It has to be hit where a fielder can actually get to it. He has to field it cleanly. He has to make an accurate throw. It has to get there in time. Someone has to catch it - to record an out.

So the more ground balls we hit the better opportunity we have to win the game.

So what happens is coaches are teaching hitters to swing down on the ball in order to create more ground balls. Probably giving some hitters a better opportunity to reach base. Probably winning more games. And definitely hindering the development of hitters greatly.

I believe as a coach your job is to develop your players to the best of your ability. Ultimately giving your team the best opportunity to have success at the same time giving your players the best opportunity to have success. I believe you should coach up to the highest level not down to the lowest. I believe your goal should be that every player play at the highest level they can achieve. In other words when your coaching Pre HS players you should be preparing them for HS baseball. When your coaching HS players you should be preparing them for college baseball. Etc etc.

I don't believe you do that by sacrificing their development as players for the sake of winning a game today. The fact is you will win more games today by preparing them for tomorrow.

Hitting for me is about mashing the baseball. Hitting it as far and as hard as you are physically capable of. Developing a swing path that you can repeat with ease over and over again and take to the game with confidence. I never liked BP in the cage. I used the cage for drills. I believe in hitting live on field. I want the player to get that feedback now. I want that feedback now. When players understand launch angle and get that feedback they can see, they learn how to make the needed adjustments. They at the least can relate to what you are trying to teach them.

I understand some kids are not strong enough entering HS to have the success with this approach that they are used to at the younger levels. That bomb at 13 14u is now a routine fly ball on the HS field. Now that is a fact for many. That 300' fence is now 375' 400'. But as they get stronger it all works out. Do you dumb them down to get on base and when they get stronger change their swing to accommodate the new found strength? No of course not. We teach mechanics to produce the absolute most velo we can get and continue to push the limits on creating more and more velo. You will never throw it too hard. Then why don't we do the same with hitting? Do we say "Don't try and throw hard. Don't work for more velo. Just fool them. Then why do we tell hitters to simply settle for GB's because it will help us win?

Of course just because you work to create a swing that produces lift and power doesn't mean you won't still produce some GB's. It's just not the goal. But maybe those GB's will be freaking worm burners you just missed? I don't have all the answers but I believe hitting should be fun and it should be MAXED out in the same way VELO is maxed out. Get all you can and you never have enough.

ironhorse posted:

2020dad posted:

ironhorse posted:

2020dad posted:

 

There are some absolutes trouble is too many people don't want to accept it!  And Ted Williams talked to anyone who would listen about these same things 50+ years ago!  And still some want to rip the 'hitting gurus'!

 

What do you feel are the absolutes? I agree there are a few. And which absolutes don't people want to accept?  

Well let's start with the obvious.  There are still those that teach - and mean it not as a cue - the level swing. There are still those who do the silly demonstrations with their hands while teaching "swing down to make the ball go up". There is no shortage of those who honestly believe you should hit the inside top half of the ball and somehow magically the ball will still be able to find the LC gap!  It is an absolute that MLB players are the best in the world and copying them is probably a pretty good idea. It is an absolute that 'just meet the ball' is a bad idea.  You need good exit velocity just to get it out of the infield unless you have somehow perfected the Texas leaguer swing. How is that for just a start?

Not a very good start honestly. If I was a player not sure I'd grasp all those absolutes due to the negative examples. Not that I disagree with some of where you're going.

To me, absolute: a swing that keeps the barrel on plane in the zone for the longest time possible gives the best chance for consistent contact. To me, that can't be argued. Might have different ideas of on plane, but once really delved into the plane of the pitch is the plane of the pitch, no matter opinions.

So what hitting absolutes do you have?

And I would disagree that studying "major leaguers is always the best idea. Dependent on the kid and the MLB player.

 

 

(this may be stated in following posts, I just started reading the thread)

Since a pitched ball is dropping, the plane to stay on is an uppercut.

Some interesting team stats from the SEC web site...I assume they have quite a few fairly solid hitters there who job description is to mash...I hope the sarcasm is clear!!

Missouri - AB's - 1126 Extra base hits - 99

S Carolina AB- 1097 EX hits 87

Tenn - 1056 and 81

A&M 1187 and 106

Vandy 1157 and 95

Bama 1076 and 87

Ark - 1166 99

Auburn 1146 and 90

Florida 1083 and 76

GA 1133 and 84

Kentucky 1115 and 117

LSU 1150 and 96

Ole' Miss - 1060 and 75

MSU 1187 and 109

less then 10% of AB's are hits are for extra bases...but you can find "loads" and "tons" of 14u's who are driving it deep - those dumb asses in the SEC should really start recruiting better...again I hope the sarcasm is clear!

What those stats show is just how hard it is to get an extra base hit the higher level you play. The pitching is outstanding. The speed of the outfielders is tremendous. The goal, the intent doesn't always and that's clear give you the result you are looking for. I can bet you one thing the players who can not drive the baseball are not on the rosters.

Coach_May posted:

I hesitate to post on hitting threads. Hitting threads can be so, well I can't even find the words to describe it. I guess it goes back to all the threads on rotational, linear etc etc.

 Some kids are simply born with the ability to time it up. Some are simply born with the ability to barrel the baseball consistently. Some have a natural swing path and many do not. It is a lot like throwing motions. Some are born with a natural ability to throw. It just flows. No one had to teach them it's natural to them. Some have to be taught and trained to do what comes natural to others.

I believe the best swing path is the one that gets you in the zone the quickest, allows you to stay in the zone the longest, gets there with a slight uppercut, and is on time. BP for hitters is easy. It's quite honestly an ability to reproduce that sweet swing over and over. Almost every pitch is barreled up hit with authority. The vast majority of the balls hit are either line drives or deep fly balls. Ground balls are smoked but rare.

The ground ball has been taught for years at the HS level. Your dealing with a wide variety of skill levels. Your dumbing down is what your doing. You don't take the time to teach individuals you cookie cutter approach it. The theory was created in order to give your team a better opportunity to win at the expense of the actual development of your players. This is how it was explained to me when I first started coaching at the HS level.

Fly Ball - It takes one player making one play to record an out. Most players are incapable of leaving the yard. Fly balls result in outs the vast majority of the time.

Ground Balls - It has to be hit where a fielder can actually get to it. He has to field it cleanly. He has to make an accurate throw. It has to get there in time. Someone has to catch it - to record an out.

So the more ground balls we hit the better opportunity we have to win the game.

So what happens is coaches are teaching hitters to swing down on the ball in order to create more ground balls. Probably giving some hitters a better opportunity to reach base. Probably winning more games. And definitely hindering the development of hitters greatly.

I believe as a coach your job is to develop your players to the best of your ability. Ultimately giving your team the best opportunity to have success at the same time giving your players the best opportunity to have success. I believe you should coach up to the highest level not down to the lowest. I believe your goal should be that every player play at the highest level they can achieve. In other words when your coaching Pre HS players you should be preparing them for HS baseball. When your coaching HS players you should be preparing them for college baseball. Etc etc.

I don't believe you do that by sacrificing their development as players for the sake of winning a game today. The fact is you will win more games today by preparing them for tomorrow.

Hitting for me is about mashing the baseball. Hitting it as far and as hard as you are physically capable of. Developing a swing path that you can repeat with ease over and over again and take to the game with confidence. I never liked BP in the cage. I used the cage for drills. I believe in hitting live on field. I want the player to get that feedback now. I want that feedback now. When players understand launch angle and get that feedback they can see, they learn how to make the needed adjustments. They at the least can relate to what you are trying to teach them.

I understand some kids are not strong enough entering HS to have the success with this approach that they are used to at the younger levels. That bomb at 13 14u is now a routine fly ball on the HS field. Now that is a fact for many. That 300' fence is now 375' 400'. But as they get stronger it all works out. Do you dumb them down to get on base and when they get stronger change their swing to accommodate the new found strength? No of course not. We teach mechanics to produce the absolute most velo we can get and continue to push the limits on creating more and more velo. You will never throw it too hard. Then why don't we do the same with hitting? Do we say "Don't try and throw hard. Don't work for more velo. Just fool them. Then why do we tell hitters to simply settle for GB's because it will help us win?

Of course just because you work to create a swing that produces lift and power doesn't mean you won't still produce some GB's. It's just not the goal. But maybe those GB's will be freaking worm burners you just missed? I don't have all the answers but I believe hitting should be fun and it should be MAXED out in the same way VELO is maxed out. Get all you can and you never have enough.

 

 

This is the greatest post on hitting that I have read on HSBBW. I nominate this for a golden post.

Go44dad posted:

ironhorse posted:

2020dad posted:

ironhorse posted:

2020dad posted:

 

There are some absolutes trouble is too many people don't want to accept it!  And Ted Williams talked to anyone who would listen about these same things 50+ years ago!  And still some want to rip the 'hitting gurus'!

 

What do you feel are the absolutes? I agree there are a few. And which absolutes don't people want to accept?  

Well let's start with the obvious.  There are still those that teach - and mean it not as a cue - the level swing. There are still those who do the silly demonstrations with their hands while teaching "swing down to make the ball go up". There is no shortage of those who honestly believe you should hit the inside top half of the ball and somehow magically the ball will still be able to find the LC gap!  It is an absolute that MLB players are the best in the world and copying them is probably a pretty good idea. It is an absolute that 'just meet the ball' is a bad idea.  You need good exit velocity just to get it out of the infield unless you have somehow perfected the Texas leaguer swing. How is that for just a start?

Not a very good start honestly. If I was a player not sure I'd grasp all those absolutes due to the negative examples. Not that I disagree with some of where you're going.

To me, absolute: a swing that keeps the barrel on plane in the zone for the longest time possible gives the best chance for consistent contact. To me, that can't be argued. Might have different ideas of on plane, but once really delved into the plane of the pitch is the plane of the pitch, no matter opinions.

So what hitting absolutes do you have?

And I would disagree that studying "major leaguers is always the best idea. Dependent on the kid and the MLB player.

 

 

(this may be stated in following posts, I just started reading the thread)

Since a pitched ball is dropping, the plane to stay on is an uppercut.

Agreed.  I don't think there is anyone on this thread that proposes the plane to be less than the slightly upward one that matches the pitch plane.  I think the basic recent debate in this thread is whether one should intentionally try to hit the ball at a high launch angle (which, in effect, has the plane more upward than most pitch angles and means the barrel will be on plane for a shorter period of time than if one were trying to hit on plane).  So it's "line drive" vs "lift" intent.  I believe age and player specific skill set factors in.  I also believe that, while there are certainly MLB players who hit with lift intent, there are also many MLB players who take a line drive approach and still hit for power.  And as Coach May points out, ideally, it is just the player's natural swing.

old_school posted:

Some interesting team stats from the SEC web site...I assume they have quite a few fairly solid hitters there who job description is to mash...I hope the sarcasm is clear!!

Missouri - AB's - 1126 Extra base hits - 99

S Carolina AB- 1097 EX hits 87

Tenn - 1056 and 81

A&M 1187 and 106

Vandy 1157 and 95

Bama 1076 and 87

Ark - 1166 99

Auburn 1146 and 90

Florida 1083 and 76

GA 1133 and 84

Kentucky 1115 and 117

LSU 1150 and 96

Ole' Miss - 1060 and 75

MSU 1187 and 109

less then 10% of AB's are hits are for extra bases...but you can find "loads" and "tons" of 14u's who are driving it deep - those dumb asses in the SEC should really start recruiting better...again I hope the sarcasm is clear!

 

So how many of those extra base hits, would have hit the back of the tunnel? 

Golfman25 posted:

old_school posted:

Some interesting team stats from the SEC web site...I assume they have quite a few fairly solid hitters there who job description is to mash...I hope the sarcasm is clear!!

Missouri - AB's - 1126 Extra base hits - 99

S Carolina AB- 1097 EX hits 87

Tenn - 1056 and 81

A&M 1187 and 106

Vandy 1157 and 95

Bama 1076 and 87

Ark - 1166 99

Auburn 1146 and 90

Florida 1083 and 76

GA 1133 and 84

Kentucky 1115 and 117

LSU 1150 and 96

Ole' Miss - 1060 and 75

MSU 1187 and 109

less then 10% of AB's are hits are for extra bases...but you can find "loads" and "tons" of 14u's who are driving it deep - those dumb asses in the SEC should really start recruiting better...again I hope the sarcasm is clear!

 

So how many of those extra base hits, would have hit the back of the tunnel? 

I think the more intriguing question, if we're gonna get anywhere with this, is how many of those were hit with intent to lift and how many were hit with line drive intent.  I'm guessing plenty of both.  And add in some variances like "hit it hard", "hit it where it's pitched", "see ball, hit ball", "mash", "think middle and react", "look fastball and attack", "look away, stay back and drill the gap", "if he hangs it, bang it", etc.

At the end of the day, there are more than one approaches that can be successful.  I also think the discussion would be more interesting if we addressed an earlier question more specifically, and that is "what are the absolutes?".

old_school posted:

2020dad posted:

 

how bout here.  There are tons of 14's who can hit the ball 350-400. Let's just take the low end of that. 350 feet is 90mph of exit velo.  That translates to about low to mid 80's off the tee. Look at showcase results.  There are a good number of kids who can do that. And in the states that allow hot bats for 14u there are certainly lots and lots.  If we want to talk 15u/freshman I won't say it is commonplace but it certainly isn't rare.  And I would guess at least half of anything decent travel team can achieve that. 

this is a key point, there aren't "tons of 14's" who can do this...your next sentence is "if you want to talk 15u I won't say it is commonplace" you can't have it both ways.

the 14u kid hitting bombs with a balloon bat doesn't sudden get worse over the winter before 15u - he is now using a big boy bat. When you graduate to the real bats you will learn that the math you are so proud of doesn't apply...

Even if the kids are able to generate the EV numbers that you are quoting off a T that just shows how tough it is to square it up. Based on your comments and the numbers you are using the HR and over all power numbers for HS and college should be WAY WAY higher then they are...it is either much tougher then you think or the whole world is stupid.

I realize it is possible that your math is correct and you are just the smartest guy in the room! Real world variables apply, the data doesn't back up the math at the younger levels below college or at a minimum Varsity ball and I am one of the guys who kind of agrees with you!!

 

Old school...  a little surprised at your tone. We have disagreed before but usually are able to come to some sort of agreement by the time we are done.  So let's try that again.  You are absolutely correct it's really hard in game. The pitcher by the way is bound and determined to get you out.  You might see one mistake per at bat if you are lucky.  You can't miss it.  But just because it's hard doesn't mean we give up!  Still have to try to be the most productive hitter possible. And in the long run squaring it up is a skill some may never acquire.  

And I wouldn't say the whole world is stupid but a lot of it is. The numbers I am so proud of are real.  The stubbornness of a lot of coaches who refuse to accept those are real. There are lots (is that better than tons?) of 14's that are CAPABLE of reaching those velocities.  And BBCOR does in fact change careers.  

And a big part of the lack of home tuns is the coaching to geound ball swings!!!  And of course the pitcher - let's give them hurlers some well deserved credit.  It's their job to put the ball where a hitter can't crush it. If a MLB player goes to the dish 600 times and fails to hit a home run 560 times he's had a great power year!

2019Dad posted:

Coach_May posted:

I hesitate to post on hitting threads. Hitting threads can be so, well I can't even find the words to describe it. I guess it goes back to all the threads on rotational, linear etc etc.

 Some kids are simply born with the ability to time it up. Some are simply born with the ability to barrel the baseball consistently. Some have a natural swing path and many do not. It is a lot like throwing motions. Some are born with a natural ability to throw. It just flows. No one had to teach them it's natural to them. Some have to be taught and trained to do what comes natural to others.

I believe the best swing path is the one that gets you in the zone the quickest, allows you to stay in the zone the longest, gets there with a slight uppercut, and is on time. BP for hitters is easy. It's quite honestly an ability to reproduce that sweet swing over and over. Almost every pitch is barreled up hit with authority. The vast majority of the balls hit are either line drives or deep fly balls. Ground balls are smoked but rare.

The ground ball has been taught for years at the HS level. Your dealing with a wide variety of skill levels. Your dumbing down is what your doing. You don't take the time to teach individuals you cookie cutter approach it. The theory was created in order to give your team a better opportunity to win at the expense of the actual development of your players. This is how it was explained to me when I first started coaching at the HS level.

Fly Ball - It takes one player making one play to record an out. Most players are incapable of leaving the yard. Fly balls result in outs the vast majority of the time.

Ground Balls - It has to be hit where a fielder can actually get to it. He has to field it cleanly. He has to make an accurate throw. It has to get there in time. Someone has to catch it - to record an out.

So the more ground balls we hit the better opportunity we have to win the game.

So what happens is coaches are teaching hitters to swing down on the ball in order to create more ground balls. Probably giving some hitters a better opportunity to reach base. Probably winning more games. And definitely hindering the development of hitters greatly.

I believe as a coach your job is to develop your players to the best of your ability. Ultimately giving your team the best opportunity to have success at the same time giving your players the best opportunity to have success. I believe you should coach up to the highest level not down to the lowest. I believe your goal should be that every player play at the highest level they can achieve. In other words when your coaching Pre HS players you should be preparing them for HS baseball. When your coaching HS players you should be preparing them for college baseball. Etc etc.

I don't believe you do that by sacrificing their development as players for the sake of winning a game today. The fact is you will win more games today by preparing them for tomorrow.

Hitting for me is about mashing the baseball. Hitting it as far and as hard as you are physically capable of. Developing a swing path that you can repeat with ease over and over again and take to the game with confidence. I never liked BP in the cage. I used the cage for drills. I believe in hitting live on field. I want the player to get that feedback now. I want that feedback now. When players understand launch angle and get that feedback they can see, they learn how to make the needed adjustments. They at the least can relate to what you are trying to teach them.

I understand some kids are not strong enough entering HS to have the success with this approach that they are used to at the younger levels. That bomb at 13 14u is now a routine fly ball on the HS field. Now that is a fact for many. That 300' fence is now 375' 400'. But as they get stronger it all works out. Do you dumb them down to get on base and when they get stronger change their swing to accommodate the new found strength? No of course not. We teach mechanics to produce the absolute most velo we can get and continue to push the limits on creating more and more velo. You will never throw it too hard. Then why don't we do the same with hitting? Do we say "Don't try and throw hard. Don't work for more velo. Just fool them. Then why do we tell hitters to simply settle for GB's because it will help us win?

Of course just because you work to create a swing that produces lift and power doesn't mean you won't still produce some GB's. It's just not the goal. But maybe those GB's will be freaking worm burners you just missed? I don't have all the answers but I believe hitting should be fun and it should be MAXED out in the same way VELO is maxed out. Get all you can and you never have enough.

 

 

This is the greatest post on hitting that I have read on HSBBW. I nominate this for a golden post.

That's certainly a post I can get on board with.  In fact that's pretty much what I have been saying.  Just because its hard to actually do in game doesn't mean you don't try to develop that ability!

2020dad posted:

old_school posted:

2020dad posted:

 

how bout here.  There are tons of 14's who can hit the ball 350-400. Let's just take the low end of that. 350 feet is 90mph of exit velo.  That translates to about low to mid 80's off the tee. Look at showcase results.  There are a good number of kids who can do that. And in the states that allow hot bats for 14u there are certainly lots and lots.  If we want to talk 15u/freshman I won't say it is commonplace but it certainly isn't rare.  And I would guess at least half of anything decent travel team can achieve that. 

this is a key point, there aren't "tons of 14's" who can do this...your next sentence is "if you want to talk 15u I won't say it is commonplace" you can't have it both ways.

the 14u kid hitting bombs with a balloon bat doesn't sudden get worse over the winter before 15u - he is now using a big boy bat. When you graduate to the real bats you will learn that the math you are so proud of doesn't apply...

Even if the kids are able to generate the EV numbers that you are quoting off a T that just shows how tough it is to square it up. Based on your comments and the numbers you are using the HR and over all power numbers for HS and college should be WAY WAY higher then they are...it is either much tougher then you think or the whole world is stupid.

I realize it is possible that your math is correct and you are just the smartest guy in the room! Real world variables apply, the data doesn't back up the math at the younger levels below college or at a minimum Varsity ball and I am one of the guys who kind of agrees with you!!

 

Old school...  a little surprised at your tone. We have disagreed before but usually are able to come to some sort of agreement by the time we are done.  So let's try that again.  You are absolutely correct it's really hard in game. The pitcher by the way is bound and determined to get you out.  You might see one mistake per at bat if you are lucky.  You can't miss it.  But just because it's hard doesn't mean we give up!  Still have to try to be the most productive hitter possible. And in the long run squaring it up is a skill some may never acquire.  

And I wouldn't say the whole world is stupid but a lot of it is. The numbers I am so proud of are real.  The stubbornness of a lot of coaches who refuse to accept those are real. There are lots (is that better than tons?) of 14's that are CAPABLE of reaching those velocities.  And BBCOR does in fact change careers.  

And a big part of the lack of home tuns is the coaching to geound ball swings!!!  And of course the pitcher - let's give them hurlers some well deserved credit.  It's their job to put the ball where a hitter can't crush it. If a MLB player goes to the dish 600 times and fails to hit a home run 560 times he's had a great power year!

LOL - ok the bolded and blue I can totally agree with! my wife actually gets mad at me because until proven different I assume I know better!! Maybe it is character flaw but soooo many people lack the ability to use logic...well anyway.

I apologize if I am being a bit rough, am dealing with a few issues at work, yes I do actually have a job that occasionally gets in the way of baseball and golf, I haven't been in the best of moods here in the office lately. 90% of my internet time comes in the office...I do apologize for being short tempered!

old_school posted:

Some interesting team stats from the SEC web site...I assume they have quite a few fairly solid hitters there who job description is to mash...I hope the sarcasm is clear!!

Missouri - AB's - 1126 Extra base hits - 99

S Carolina AB- 1097 EX hits 87

Tenn - 1056 and 81

A&M 1187 and 106

Vandy 1157 and 95

Bama 1076 and 87

Ark - 1166 99

Auburn 1146 and 90

Florida 1083 and 76

GA 1133 and 84

Kentucky 1115 and 117

LSU 1150 and 96

Ole' Miss - 1060 and 75

MSU 1187 and 109

less then 10% of AB's are hits are for extra bases...but you can find "loads" and "tons" of 14u's who are driving it deep - those dumb asses in the SEC should really start recruiting better...again I hope the sarcasm is clear!

 

Jeez...  this is frustrating.  Here is my direct quote:

There are tons of 14's who can hit the ball 350-400. Let's just take the low end of that. 350 feet is 90mph of exit velo. That translates to about low to mid 80's off the tee. Look at showcase results. There are a good number of kids who can do that

WHO CAN being key here.  The raw ability to do so.  It has to be developed to show up occasionally in game. At no point in time ever did I even remotely suggest there are 14's by the ton hitting 400 foot home runs IN GAME left and right.  Never 

By the way do they have any good pitchers in the SEC?  Whose job it is to keep the hitters from elevating? I hope my sarcasm is clear. 

2020dad posted:

old_school posted:

Some interesting team stats from the SEC web site...I assume they have quite a few fairly solid hitters there who job description is to mash...I hope the sarcasm is clear!!

Missouri - AB's - 1126 Extra base hits - 99

S Carolina AB- 1097 EX hits 87

Tenn - 1056 and 81

A&M 1187 and 106

Vandy 1157 and 95

Bama 1076 and 87

Ark - 1166 99

Auburn 1146 and 90

Florida 1083 and 76

GA 1133 and 84

Kentucky 1115 and 117

LSU 1150 and 96

Ole' Miss - 1060 and 75

MSU 1187 and 109

less then 10% of AB's are hits are for extra bases...but you can find "loads" and "tons" of 14u's who are driving it deep - those dumb asses in the SEC should really start recruiting better...again I hope the sarcasm is clear!

 

Jeez...  this is frustrating.  Here is my direct quote:

There are tons of 14's who can hit the ball 350-400. Let's just take the low end of that. 350 feet is 90mph of exit velo. That translates to about low to mid 80's off the tee. Look at showcase results. There are a good number of kids who can do that

WHO CAN being key here.  The raw ability to do so.  It has to be developed to show up occasionally in game. At no point in time ever did I even remotely suggest there are 14's by the ton hitting 400 foot home runs IN GAME left and right.  Never 

By the way do they have any good pitchers in the SEC?  Whose job it is to keep the hitters from elevating? I hope my sarcasm is clear. 

I think it's arguing semantics here. The definition of CAN is at the heart of it. I'll accept your idea the 90 mph of exit velo = 350', although I've never looked into it. My point would be that mid-80s off of a tee doesn't mean you CAN hit a pitched ball any certain distance. I have big, strong football players at my school who could likely square a ball up off of a tee at 90+ mph, but would struggle to make contact in BP. 

If your argument it that a lot of 14 yo can achieve 85+ mph off of a tee I don't think I would argue that (although again, I don't know a lot of numbers for 14 yo exit velocity). But to me does not mean they can hit a pitched ball 400', and I don't believe its due to how the swing plane is coached. Same way the track kid who can run an 11.00 100m CAN still a lot of bases, but in reality gets picked off 75% of the time. 

ironhorse posted:

2020dad posted:

old_school posted:

Some interesting team stats from the SEC web site...I assume they have quite a few fairly solid hitters there who job description is to mash...I hope the sarcasm is clear!!

Missouri - AB's - 1126 Extra base hits - 99

S Carolina AB- 1097 EX hits 87

Tenn - 1056 and 81

A&M 1187 and 106

Vandy 1157 and 95

Bama 1076 and 87

Ark - 1166 99

Auburn 1146 and 90

Florida 1083 and 76

GA 1133 and 84

Kentucky 1115 and 117

LSU 1150 and 96

Ole' Miss - 1060 and 75

MSU 1187 and 109

less then 10% of AB's are hits are for extra bases...but you can find "loads" and "tons" of 14u's who are driving it deep - those dumb asses in the SEC should really start recruiting better...again I hope the sarcasm is clear!

 

Jeez...  this is frustrating.  Here is my direct quote:

There are tons of 14's who can hit the ball 350-400. Let's just take the low end of that. 350 feet is 90mph of exit velo. That translates to about low to mid 80's off the tee. Look at showcase results. There are a good number of kids who can do that

WHO CAN being key here.  The raw ability to do so.  It has to be developed to show up occasionally in game. At no point in time ever did I even remotely suggest there are 14's by the ton hitting 400 foot home runs IN GAME left and right.  Never 

By the way do they have any good pitchers in the SEC?  Whose job it is to keep the hitters from elevating? I hope my sarcasm is clear. 

I think it's arguing semantics here. The definition of CAN is at the heart of it. I'll accept your idea the 90 mph of exit velo = 350', although I've never looked into it. My point would be that mid-80s off of a tee doesn't mean you CAN hit a pitched ball any certain distance. I have big, strong football players at my school who could likely square a ball up off of a tee at 90+ mph, but would struggle to make contact in BP. 

If your argument it that a lot of 14 yo can achieve 85+ mph off of a tee I don't think I would argue that (although again, I don't know a lot of numbers for 14 yo exit velocity). But to me does not mean they can hit a pitched ball 400', and I don't believe its due to how the swing plane is coached. Same way the track kid who can run an 11.00 100m CAN still a lot of bases, but in reality gets picked off 75% of the time. 

 

But the CAN.  I don't disagree with the spirit of what you are saying though. So that's the key - you have the ability or would the word potential work better for you guys?  Now the question is can you carry it over to the game. And that my friend is the key.  That is why we have to work to groove that swing and smooth it out. And then accept some just will never be good enough. 

old_school posted:

2020dad posted:

old_school posted:

2020dad posted:

 

how bout here.  There are tons of 14's who can hit the ball 350-400. Let's just take the low end of that. 350 feet is 90mph of exit velo.  That translates to about low to mid 80's off the tee. Look at showcase results.  There are a good number of kids who can do that. And in the states that allow hot bats for 14u there are certainly lots and lots.  If we want to talk 15u/freshman I won't say it is commonplace but it certainly isn't rare.  And I would guess at least half of anything decent travel team can achieve that. 

this is a key point, there aren't "tons of 14's" who can do this...your next sentence is "if you want to talk 15u I won't say it is commonplace" you can't have it both ways.

the 14u kid hitting bombs with a balloon bat doesn't sudden get worse over the winter before 15u - he is now using a big boy bat. When you graduate to the real bats you will learn that the math you are so proud of doesn't apply...

Even if the kids are able to generate the EV numbers that you are quoting off a T that just shows how tough it is to square it up. Based on your comments and the numbers you are using the HR and over all power numbers for HS and college should be WAY WAY higher then they are...it is either much tougher then you think or the whole world is stupid.

I realize it is possible that your math is correct and you are just the smartest guy in the room! Real world variables apply, the data doesn't back up the math at the younger levels below college or at a minimum Varsity ball and I am one of the guys who kind of agrees with you!!

 

Old school...  a little surprised at your tone. We have disagreed before but usually are able to come to some sort of agreement by the time we are done.  So let's try that again.  You are absolutely correct it's really hard in game. The pitcher by the way is bound and determined to get you out.  You might see one mistake per at bat if you are lucky.  You can't miss it.  But just because it's hard doesn't mean we give up!  Still have to try to be the most productive hitter possible. And in the long run squaring it up is a skill some may never acquire.  

And I wouldn't say the whole world is stupid but a lot of it is. The numbers I am so proud of are real.  The stubbornness of a lot of coaches who refuse to accept those are real. There are lots (is that better than tons?) of 14's that are CAPABLE of reaching those velocities.  And BBCOR does in fact change careers.  

And a big part of the lack of home tuns is the coaching to geound ball swings!!!  And of course the pitcher - let's give them hurlers some well deserved credit.  It's their job to put the ball where a hitter can't crush it. If a MLB player goes to the dish 600 times and fails to hit a home run 560 times he's had a great power year!

LOL - ok the bolded and blue I can totally agree with! my wife actually gets mad at me because until proven different I assume I know better!! Maybe it is character flaw but soooo many people lack the ability to use logic...well anyway.

I apologize if I am being a bit rough, am dealing with a few issues at work, yes I do actually have a job that occasionally gets in the way of baseball and golf, I haven't been in the best of moods here in the office lately. 90% of my internet time comes in the office...I do apologize for being short tempered!

Ok we're good.  And I could have resisted the sarcasm comment.  In the long run I think we are saying mostly the same thing.  That in game everything becomes a million times harder. 

3and2Fastball posted:

Hitting behind a runner to move a player over, especially with 2 strikes and less than 2 outs and a runner on second, is not a thing of the past, especially at the HS, college, and most of MiLB levels!!!!

Preparing a kid for MLB before they ever even play Varsity HS is one of those things that drives coaches crazy about the current generation of players/parents.

Who said anything about preparing for MLB??  See people just throw these things out there as if someone actually did it. I am 90% sure my son will never hit beyond high school.  I still want him to have as good a high school career as possible.  The MLB swing is the swing for ALL ages

Never been a fan of hitting in the cages (obviously it is necessary sometimes, we're in Ohio).  I threw to my son on a field as much as possible when he was growing up....whether it was on a 280' fence when he was 12-14 or on the HS field when he was 15U and up.  As someone said earlier, you get a "visual" that you can't get in the cage....even if you mark the cage somehow.  I would call every ball he hit.....and out or a hit.  Sometimes he didn't like it "center fielder made a diving grab"   but I really do think it made him a better hitter.  In the cage, he would just swing as hard as he could....and have no idea where the ball would have gone.  On a field, he would strive to get 10 straight hits before making an out.  He was never big also had the power to put 5 or 6 straight over the fence on the HS field if he hit it good....but realized that a lot of times trying to go for the fence was just him long fly outs.  He would hit plenty of HR's but in most cases they were the result of a good swing.  He hit 4 HR's his senior year....I really think all the BP we took on the field the summer before was a big part of it

Although not completely relevant, the #2 theory kind of lines up with Coach May's post.

http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/...ites-taking-baseball

We have a great hitting Juco team that doesn't use a cage/machine.  They go from hitting off a tee into a mat, to front (behind screen) toss at 10ft (simulates a fastball), to live BP from 46ft.  All of them have a MLB swing.  I personally don't know any coaches who teaches hitting ground balls.  On our season so far, only 2 or 3 hits have been from ground balls.  Everything else are line drives to the gaps and bloopers over the IF.  

another interesting article

http://rocklandpeakperformance...elos-what-need-know/

you could conclude that softer hitters between 80 and 90 (probably 75 to 85 with HS OF depths)  are best served hitting at 5 to 15 degrees and harder hitters at 90+ would be best served hitting at 20 to 30.

the middle of that (20) is actually not all that great for softer hitters (the donut hole) because it tends to get caught more often unless really hard or really soft.

but then again who can control it that well? 

the article also shows that in MLB you need to hit it really hard to get GB hits. at -5 degrees you need to hit it 95+ to get to a .400 average which is very hard. hit those at 85 and you are always out. so basically more exit velo gives you a higher launch angle range in both the sharp grounder and donut hole range. if you don't have the power you need to be more precise with your LA and you cover a smaller LA range. that does not mean LA does not matter at higher EVs though. a 100 MPH grounder is a hit in MLB quite often but you don't produce extra bases. that is not terrible if you defend like kevin kiermeier but if you are a first baseman (those big players produce the most 100+ hits) you basically take away your only way of contributing positively on the baseball field.

for example eric hosmer is a grounder machine who hits it really hard. he isn't a bad hitter, due to his strength he still gets his hits and 20 bombs that he misses under but he is not producing well for a 1b and only an average player. so he gets away with his non mastering of launch angle somewhat and still is a slightly above average hitter but he is not as good as he could be.

there is of course also the other extreme. billy hamilton has an average launch angle of 18 degrees this year. that actually is not bad but his average EV is one of the lowest in the majors at 80. that probably means the OF plays him shallower taking away the bloopers so that he basically has a lot of donut hole flyouts at 20-30 degrees.

he probably would be better off to lower his LA a little to 5 to 15. of course that wouldnt make him a good hitter either because he not only hits the ball soft but also strikes 100 times a year, which is not bad in these days but too much if your average EV is 80 and you hit 3 HRs a year.

Dominik85 posted:

another interesting article

http://rocklandpeakperformance...elos-what-need-know/

you could conclude that softer hitters between 80 and 90 (probably 75 to 85 with HS OF depths)  are best served hitting at 5 to 15 degrees and harder hitters at 90+ would be best served hitting at 20 to 30.

the middle of that (20) is actually not all that great for softer hitters (the donut hole) because it tends to get caught more often unless really hard or really soft.

but then again who can control it that well? 

the article also shows that in MLB you need to hit it really hard to get GB hits. at -5 degrees you need to hit it 95+ to get to a .400 average which is very hard. hit those at 85 and you are always out. so basically more exit velo gives you a higher launch angle range in both the sharp grounder and donut hole range. if you don't have the power you need to be more precise with your LA and you cover a smaller LA range. that does not mean LA does not matter at higher EVs though. a 100 MPH grounder is a hit in MLB quite often but you don't produce extra bases. that is not terrible if you defend like kevin kiermeier but if you are a first baseman (those big players produce the most 100+ hits) you basically take away your only way of contributing positively on the baseball field.

for example eric hosmer is a grounder machine who hits it really hard. he isn't a bad hitter, due to his strength he still gets his hits and 20 bombs that he misses under but he is not producing well for a 1b and only an average player. so he gets away with his non mastering of launch angle somewhat and still is a slightly above average hitter but he is not as good as he could be.

there is of course also the other extreme. billy hamilton has an average launch angle of 18 degrees this year. that actually is not bad but his average EV is one of the lowest in the majors at 80. that probably means the OF plays him shallower taking away the bloopers so that he basically has a lot of donut hole flyouts at 20-30 degrees.

 

he probably would be better off to lower his LA a little to 5 to 15. of course that wouldnt make him a good hitter either because he not only hits the ball soft but also strikes 100 times a year, which is not bad in these days but too much if your average EV is 80 and you hit 3 HRs a year.

Good insight.  I will remind that no one in this thread/discussion has ever suggested a negative LA (ground ball).  I know I don't need to tell you that but trying to keep any healthy debate in context for other(s).  

I will challenge your interpretation of the chart, however.  It appears to me that your exit velo would need to be 100+, not 90+, before a launch angle over 18% is advantageous.  That probably eliminates 98% of HS players.  And you have to be realistic about what they "potentially can" do and what they realistically can do.  So, this chart would imply to me that HS players, except the very rare few, will get optimal results at 5 - 18 degrees.

I took particular interest in the Hosmer reference.  A grounder machine.  I would love to hear his take on what his INTENDED launch angle is.  I'm willing to bet that, most often, it is not negative/GB's.  Again, my point is that the resulting statistical data is not necessarily directly correlated to the intent or the teach.  Many MLB players who hit their share of HR's don't hit with the intent of 20-30 degree lift.  They try to drive the ball hard and very slight misses under the ball but barreled leave the yard while very slight misses over the ball are hard ground balls.

To further illustrate my point...

Another interesting stat from the charts - hitters with 100+ exit velo are better off at 10 degrees than 15-20 degrees.  Then, things improve again at 25 degrees.  So are hitters/hitting coaches using the data and trying to hit at either 10 degrees or 25 degrees but not in between?  Don't think so.

When you get to 100+ you have to consider extra base hits. The average is probably better with 15 degrees but slugging gets better with higher LAs.

If you are below 90 getting on base is probably the better bet than extra base hits but at 95+ the role of slugging gets higher.

I'm bumping my old thread because there was a Topic about how the Launch angles translate to lower Exit velos.

I wrote a Little article subsetting different velos for Launch angle ranges and production Output (wOBA). for comparison average wOBA is around .330 so you can see which LA combinations are successfull and which not.

https://www.fangraphs.com/comm...ty-and-launch-angle/

What is interesting that in MLB very soft (below 80) and medium hard hit balls are not really different in production.

below 80 mph league wOBA is .265, 80-87 (87 is MLB average EV) the wOBA is .185 and 87-94 it is .215. So in MLB 71 MPH or 91 doesn't really make a big difference  (both are mostly Outs unless hit at very specific angles). Then at 95-100 you get to .380 and then above 100 it really takes off.

Grounders at low and medium EV are both not very effective. I devided chopped grounders (below minus 10) and "line drive grounders" (basically one hoppers from minus 10 to plus 5). The chopped grounders are always below average and for the flatter grounders you Need to hit it at 95+ to gain above average production (385).

5 to 20 degrees are effective at all EVs, but at EVs below 95 there is a sharp drop in production above 20 degrees (unless in the super soft category- i.e. bloopers). For example at 97-94 the wOBA at 25-30 is just .215 (worse than the line drive grounders).

At higher velos that changes, 95-100 remains effective till about mid 30s and at 100+ you are effective till almost 45 degrees.

That would mean for average HS Players who hit 70-80 off the tee (you can add about 100 MPH to that against live pitching on a well hit ball and probably get similar results in average EV because in MLB top Exit Velo is also about 15-20 mph higher than average Velo ) it is probably best to hit the ball between 5 and 20 degrees.

In case somebody cares, I have written a little series this year based on my statcast research:

https://www.fangraphs.com/comm...mized-not-maximized/

https://www.fangraphs.com/comm...ptimum-launch-angle/

https://www.fangraphs.com/comm...ving-a-contact-cost/

https://www.fangraphs.com/comm...aunch-angle-profile/

https://www.fangraphs.com/comm...ty-and-launch-angle/