2020dad posted:Hitting ground balls at any age is plain stupid. I don't care if the fielder makes an error. You are looking to get better not win that specific high school game. The 'gurus' are just stating what should be obvious to all. Wanting kids to hit the back of the cage is stupid. Period.
1. What percentage of balls hit on a line to the back of the cage would be hits in a live game?
2. What percentage balls hit to the top net at the 30 degree line would be hits in a game?
Real Green,
This image give "scoring value" instead of batting average, but I'm making the assumption that they are similar or correlated. It may help answer both of your questions.
Between 10 and 30 degrees has been mentioned before as the optimal range, I also assume it came from this graph (or the same data that created this graph). It's interesting to see the band of very high success rate between 10 and 25 degrees.
Also it's interesting to see high scoring value at 25+ launch angles with low exit velocity, then low scoring value between 70 and about 95 MPH, then high success again as you hit the home run cluster. The low exit velocities at that angle must be line drive base hits, then low success rate as they start reaching outfielders on the fly for outs, then more success as they start going over outfielders (or the fence).
real green posted:2020dad posted:Hitting ground balls at any age is plain stupid. I don't care if the fielder makes an error. You are looking to get better not win that specific high school game. The 'gurus' are just stating what should be obvious to all. Wanting kids to hit the back of the cage is stupid. Period.
1. What percentage of balls hit on a line to the back of the cage would be hits in a live game?
2. What percentage balls hit to the top net at the 30 degree line would be hits in a game?
So last summer my kids team hit an enormous amount of fly balls. A lot of wtp. It was really frustrating. So I did the numbers. And while a significant pct. of flyballs where outs, so where a significant pcs. of groundballs. Turned out, at least for our sample, that fly balls still had something like a 3-5% edge on ground balls to end up hits. Doesn't directly answer your question, but is a data point.
2020dad posted:Hitting ground balls at any age is plain stupid. I don't care if the fielder makes an error. You are looking to get better not win that specific high school game. The 'gurus' are just stating what should be obvious to all. Wanting kids to hit the back of the cage is stupid. Period.
Incorrect. The goal is to win games. A good hitter can adjust their game as needed. Putting the need to "get better" over the needs of a team is entirely wrong at the HS Varsity level. Players with that kind of mentality should stick to JV Ball and Showcase Ball.
again I advocate line drives, but there are times when hard hit ground balls are exactly what is needed.
Had an interesting conversation last night in the cage with my 2017. he has been working at school, with some friends, over the winter with his travel program. last night was only the 2nd night I got spend in the cage with him since last fall. he is a thick kid, left handed power, typically has the one of the top averages on his various teams. he projects to be left handed power with average for college as well.
I noticed his swing looked a little different, I also had notice from some pics of game AB's this spring that he looked a bit different. So he proceeds to explain to me what he has been working to develop a little more tilt so he can improve his launch angles slightly... this is a kid who has never hit the ball on the ground.
So we talked and tossed and I watched, he is good, he is getting more lift, I noticed it in the games this spring I just didn't realize it was an intentional act...his average is down slightly, his power numbers are up in a bigger jump. the combo is tough to argue with.
Point being it is all about age appropriate timing. if he had been working on this stuff at 14 it would have been a waste. IMO - what did amaze me is the power an 18 YR old develops, I have soft tossed him thousands of times for years but now the balls just come screaming off his bat. You can hear the difference, no gun needed.
3and2Fastball posted:2020dad posted:Hitting ground balls at any age is plain stupid. I don't care if the fielder makes an error. You are looking to get better not win that specific high school game. The 'gurus' are just stating what should be obvious to all. Wanting kids to hit the back of the cage is stupid. Period.
Incorrect. The goal is to win games. A good hitter can adjust their game as needed. Putting the need to "get better" over the needs of a team is entirely wrong at the HS Varsity level. Players with that kind of mentality should stick to JV Ball and Showcase Ball.
again I advocate line drives, but there are times when hard hit ground balls are exactly what is needed.
it is called situational hitting...
3and2Fastball posted:2020dad posted:Hitting ground balls at any age is plain stupid. I don't care if the fielder makes an error. You are looking to get better not win that specific high school game. The 'gurus' are just stating what should be obvious to all. Wanting kids to hit the back of the cage is stupid. Period.
Incorrect. The goal is to win games. A good hitter can adjust their game as needed. Putting the need to "get better" over the needs of a team is entirely wrong at the HS Varsity level. Players with that kind of mentality should stick to JV Ball and Showcase Ball.
again I advocate line drives, but there are times when hard hit ground balls are exactly what is needed.
Incorrect the goal is to become the best player you can be. And maybe your kid is that big a superstar he can do whatever he wants with the bat. Mine is not. He has to groove a swing and perfect it - and he is far from that point. Trying to change his swing to please some moron coach who wants him to hit ground balls is only going to put him further behind. Besides he will help any team more by getting the ball elevated. Ground balls are never exactly what you need. But if you think ground balls are better maybe you should stick to JV ball. Cause if you play against varsity teams who can't catch a ground ball... you must be in the summer ball contingent if Wisconsin baseball!
real green posted:2020dad posted:Hitting ground balls at any age is plain stupid. I don't care if the fielder makes an error. You are looking to get better not win that specific high school game. The 'gurus' are just stating what should be obvious to all. Wanting kids to hit the back of the cage is stupid. Period.
1. What percentage of balls hit on a line to the back of the cage would be hits in a live game?
2. What percentage balls hit to the top net at the 30 degree line would be hits in a game?
I see the chart popped up again so that is helpful. Here is what you have to realize about your question - it is way too incomplete. At what exit velocity? Hitting the back of the cage at 67mph is a ground out. Or more likely a soft line drive the pitcher catches. Pitchers in reality will field all but the very hardest hit balls that hit the back of the cage. So I would think not nearly as many hits as you may think. Secondly I can guarantee you 100% of those hits are singles. Singles don't win ballgames. Plus you say 30 degrees. That is not the optimal launch angle. But still I will play by your rules. I will take 30 degrees and hit hard anytime over back of the cage. And a whole lot more run production from those hits also.
old_school posted:3and2Fastball posted:2020dad posted:Hitting ground balls at any age is plain stupid. I don't care if the fielder makes an error. You are looking to get better not win that specific high school game. The 'gurus' are just stating what should be obvious to all. Wanting kids to hit the back of the cage is stupid. Period.
Incorrect. The goal is to win games. A good hitter can adjust their game as needed. Putting the need to "get better" over the needs of a team is entirely wrong at the HS Varsity level. Players with that kind of mentality should stick to JV Ball and Showcase Ball.
again I advocate line drives, but there are times when hard hit ground balls are exactly what is needed.
it is called situational hitting...
Old school you have to go to some new school! Sabermetrics are showing more and more that situational hitting is not the most productive way to go. Hitting behind runners is kind of a thing of the past. And keep in mind I am old also but we can't just ignore advances in science and statistical analysis. I am a die hard white sox fan (no I don't know why) and hate the Cubs. But you have to give Theo credit. We as baseball folks have to be honest and say these guys know more about these analytics than we do. We will make ourselves soumd silly if we just say 'I don't care what those fancy numbers say I know...'. One guy once said to me "did that physicist play baseball?" I was embarrassed for my profession (teaching/coaching) at that point. We have to listen and learn. And in fact the most important situational hitting is getting the ball in the air deep enough to score a runner from third!! Hitting ground balls behind runners is definitely a thing of the past.
old_school posted:Had an interesting conversation last night in the cage with my 2017. he has been working at school, with some friends, over the winter with his travel program. last night was only the 2nd night I got spend in the cage with him since last fall. he is a thick kid, left handed power, typically has the one of the top averages on his various teams. he projects to be left handed power with average for college as well.
I noticed his swing looked a little different, I also had notice from some pics of game AB's this spring that he looked a bit different. So he proceeds to explain to me what he has been working to develop a little more tilt so he can improve his launch angles slightly... this is a kid who has never hit the ball on the ground.
So we talked and tossed and I watched, he is good, he is getting more lift, I noticed it in the games this spring I just didn't realize it was an intentional act...his average is down slightly, his power numbers are up in a bigger jump. the combo is tough to argue with.
Point being it is all about age appropriate timing. if he had been working on this stuff at 14 it would have been a waste. IMO - what did amaze me is the power an 18 YR old develops, I have soft tossed him thousands of times for years but now the balls just come screaming off his bat. You can hear the difference, no gun needed.
Why would it be a waste at 14? Why is it ever a waste to improve? Even if some were caught on the warning track at 14 wouldn't many have gone for doubles, triples and homers? I have seen many many 14's who have at least the capability to hit the ball 350 to 400 feet.
2020dad posted:real green posted:2020dad posted:Hitting ground balls at any age is plain stupid. I don't care if the fielder makes an error. You are looking to get better not win that specific high school game. The 'gurus' are just stating what should be obvious to all. Wanting kids to hit the back of the cage is stupid. Period.
1. What percentage of balls hit on a line to the back of the cage would be hits in a live game?
2. What percentage balls hit to the top net at the 30 degree line would be hits in a game?
I see the chart popped up again so that is helpful. Here is what you have to realize about your question - it is way too incomplete. At what exit velocity? Hitting the back of the cage at 67mph is a ground out. Or more likely a soft line drive the pitcher catches. Pitchers in reality will field all but the very hardest hit balls that hit the back of the cage. So I would think not nearly as many hits as you may think. Secondly I can guarantee you 100% of those hits are singles. Singles don't win ballgames. Plus you say 30 degrees. That is not the optimal launch angle. But still I will play by your rules. I will take 30 degrees and hit hard anytime over back of the cage. And a whole lot more run production from those hits also.
The past two games I have seen some excellent F4 play. Both on ground balls up the middle (to the back of the cage). They where outs.
Depending on the kid, the intent to hit line drives, if missed slightly, can be a hard hit ground ball as opposed to a fly ball.
Fly Balls are outs in HS Varsity. Ground Balls are usually outs but not always.
The "Me First" attitude and not listening to "some dumb coach" in High School is the biggest concern, but that is more of a generational thing from the current generation of kids and current generation of Boomer and Gen X parents. Kids learn the wrong things and suffer greatly at the next level (if they even can get that far!) with lessons that are more painful and eye opening, if that is the lesson they are taught at home.
I agree with learning launch angle, I agree with knowing where it hits in the cage can tell you something about hits vs outs.
Not sure a "grooved swing" should be the goal, but perhaps that is semantics. Bases loaded, late inning, 2 strikes, and you are trying to elevate a slider on the outside corner of the strike zone? I've seen a lot of kids look lost with 2 strikes in general as it is, because Dad/Coach has hammered into them a "elevate like Kris Bryant, don't listen to your coach kid" attitude. No ability to adjust, no ability to expand the strike zone, no ability to just get the ball in play and move a runner over & help the team.
A vast majority of kids like that, if they are fortunate enough to even get to college ball, have to relearn how to hit in college or get labelled PO's before they ever get a chance.
Hitting behind a runner to move a player over, especially with 2 strikes and less than 2 outs and a runner on second, is not a thing of the past, especially at the HS, college, and most of MiLB levels!!!!
Preparing a kid for MLB before they ever even play Varsity HS is one of those things that drives coaches crazy about the current generation of players/parents.
3and2Fastball posted:
Fly Balls are outs in HS Varsity. Ground Balls are usually outs but not always.
That's just not necessarily true. First, on our current HS team, we have more misplayed and errors on fly balls in the outfield than we do in the infield. Second, as I posted before, on the kid's summer team (playing against above average HS competition) fly balls had a slight edge in hits over ground balls.
And I agree on the situational hitting. The kid's summer team sucked at it and it cost them. Know the situation and do your job. Not everything has to be hit to the fences.
But the whole issue comes up when us northern folks are inside hitting in nets. Coach's then spend the winter preaching hit the back of the net and anything which hits the top is "bad." Funny though, when you get outside, they never say, I want you to hit 1 or 2 hoppers (because that's what hitting the back of the next amounts to).
We know for a fact that a line drive is the most likely to fall for a hit. We know that a good line drive trajectory is somewhere in the 10-20 deg. range. So as to the OP, it makes total sense to somehow reference those flight paths in the tunnel. When we do, we see that hitting the top of the tunnel isn't all that bad.
3and2Fastball posted:Depending on the kid, the intent to hit line drives, if missed slightly, can be a hard hit ground ball as opposed to a fly ball.
Fly Balls are outs in HS Varsity. Ground Balls are usually outs but not always.
The "Me First" attitude and not listening to "some dumb coach" in High School is the biggest concern, but that is more of a generational thing from the current generation of kids and current generation of Boomer and Gen X parents. Kids learn the wrong things and suffer greatly at the next level (if they even can get that far!) with lessons that are more painful and eye opening, if that is the lesson they are taught at home.
I agree with learning launch angle, I agree with knowing where it hits in the cage can tell you something about hits vs outs.
Not sure a "grooved swing" should be the goal, but perhaps that is semantics. Bases loaded, late inning, 2 strikes, and you are trying to elevate a slider on the outside corner of the strike zone? I've seen a lot of kids look lost with 2 strikes in general as it is, because Dad/Coach has hammered into them a "elevate like Kris Bryant, don't listen to your coach kid" attitude. No ability to adjust, no ability to expand the strike zone, no ability to just get the ball in play and move a runner over & help the team.
A vast majority of kids like that, if they are fortunate enough to even get to college ball, have to relearn how to hit in college or get labelled PO's before they ever get a chance.
The idea that fly balls are always outs in HS Varsity is not accurate in my experience. I have seen deep fly balls -- not line drives -- in the gaps go for doubles and triples. Same thing as a ground ball through the hole going for a single. And of course some fly balls go over the fence.
Of course kids should be able to execute a bunt or a hit and run, or hitting behind the runner. At my son's HS they do that stuff. But in a run of the mill AB (let's say leading off an inning) they want them to drive the ball in the air, not hit a ground ball.
And when they are on defense, they are constantly looking for ground balls. I constantly hear the coaches say to the pitchers, "get me a ground ball here" -- if you want a ground ball when you are on defense, how could it be that you also want a ground ball when you are on offense?
3and2Fastball posted:Hitting behind a runner to move a player over, especially with 2 strikes and less than 2 outs and a runner on second, is not a thing of the past, especially at the HS, college, and most of MiLB levels!!!!
Preparing a kid for MLB before they ever even play Varsity HS is one of those things that drives coaches crazy about the current generation of players/parents.
Yes but how do you want them to "hit behind the runner?" A ground ball to F4 (double play) or F3? Or a double to RF? I'll take the double, because it works "ebry tyne."
We keep rehashing the same old stuff in this thread...
Our HS varsity team uses situational hitting. Our team takes a line drive approach, not a "lift" intent. We put a premium on line drives and discourage fly balls and ground balls unless situationally appropriate. We modify slightly with the outlier speed guy or true power guy. Currently, we are considered the best hitting team in a decent California HS league that regularly has multiple teams chasing the equivalent of state in our division. There is only one team in our league that has more extra base hits than we do. Yet, we have scored over 20% more runs.
Most good HS AND college programs I am familiar with use the same approach and I make it a point to be familiar with many. It is age and skill level appropriate. Hitting behind the runner is definitely not dead. We executed this in a key inning, as well as multiple bunts in another, just last night. I talk to college players regularly who are taught the same thing we teach and are asked to execute situationally similar to us on a regular basis.
If you are seeing "many many 14's who at least have the capability to hit the ball 350 to 400 feet", you are in a different world than I am and I'm in California where there is an abundance of good baseball. There are plenty of reasons why you would not want to teach a 14 y.o. to lift. How capable is he of getting the ball over the top and with what consistency? What will that do to his ability to keep the barrel on plane with the ball for an optimal length of time? Etc., etc. There are plenty of reasons to teach a HS player how to be successful today instead of just focusing on what he may be able to do at the next level or when they get much stronger. Here's one - Most HS players are not going to play at the next level. Their baseball lives, memories, experiences hinge on what they can do to succeed now.
I am very in tune to what sabermetrics is bringing to the table, what the resulting changes are and how it affects decisions at the MLB level. I am always trying to learn and keep up with any changes I should be making for my players. In many cases, what applies to MLB players and that game does not apply as best practice to other levels.
As far as hitting the back of the cage... you can youtube MLB and top college guys (with college, it is coaches with players) doing hitting drills in cages. Many of them clearly are intentionally trying to hit the back of the net, several even stating exactly that. As I've stated in previous posts, I don't dispute the 15 - 25 degree stats at the MLB level. But even many of those hits came about with the intent to just hit hard line drives. Yes, some MLB players swing with intent to lift. Not all. Doesn't mean it's what every HS player should do, or even most.
Btw a good way to lift more is to aim a little more up the middle or the other way. Pulled fly balls are actually more productive but at the mlb level pulled balls are grounders way more often than oppo balls because the swing goes slightly up and to pull you have to hit it out front which means the chance that you roll over is higher.
If you hit the other way you tend to be a little more under the ball.
So with a runner on third it is a good idea to aim to left center because thqt decreases the chance of a grounder.
That is also why power hitters are shifted in the infield. They try to pull in in the air but if they are s little early they hit the top of the ball and roll into the shift but their fly balls tend to go more towards centerfield so the outfield still is played more straight up or only slightly shifted.
cabbagedad posted:We keep rehashing the same old stuff in this thread...
Our HS varsity team uses situational hitting. Our team takes a line drive approach, not a "lift" intent. We put a premium on line drives and discourage fly balls and ground balls unless situationally appropriate. We modify slightly with the outlier speed guy or true power guy. Currently, we are considered the best hitting team in a decent California HS league that regularly has multiple teams chasing the equivalent of state in our division. There is only one team in our league that has more extra base hits than we do. Yet, we have scored over 20% more runs.
Most good HS AND college programs I am familiar with use the same approach and I make it a point to be familiar with many. It is age and skill level appropriate. Hitting behind the runner is definitely not dead. We executed this in a key inning, as well as multiple bunts in another, just last night. I talk to college players regularly who are taught the same thing we teach and are asked to execute situationally similar to us on a regular basis.
If you are seeing "many many 14's who at least have the capability to hit the ball 350 to 400 feet", you are in a different world than I am and I'm in California where there is an abundance of good baseball. There are plenty of reasons why you would not want to teach a 14 y.o. to lift. How capable is he of getting the ball over the top and with what consistency? What will that do to his ability to keep the barrel on plane with the ball for an optimal length of time? Etc., etc. There are plenty of reasons to teach a HS player how to be successful today instead of just focusing on what he may be able to do at the next level or when they get much stronger. Here's one - Most HS players are not going to play at the next level. Their baseball lives, memories, experiences hinge on what they can do to succeed now.
I am very in tune to what sabermetrics is bringing to the table, what the resulting changes are and how it affects decisions at the MLB level. I am always trying to learn and keep up with any changes I should be making for my players. In many cases, what applies to MLB players and that game does not apply as best practice to other levels.
As far as hitting the back of the cage... you can youtube MLB and top college players doing hitting drills in cages. Many of them clearly are intentionally trying to hit the back of the net, several even stating exactly that. As I've stated in previous posts, I don't dispute the 15 - 25 degree stats at the MLB level. But even many of those hits came about with the intent to just hit hard line drives. Yes, some MLB players swing with intent to lift. Not all. Doesn't mean it's what every HS player should do, or even most.
I wanted to add to this, but can't I agree with pretty much every bit of it.
While I understand the point of the conversations, it seems there is always a trend with "hitting gurus" that they believe is an absolute. And it changes every 5 years or so. Right now everyone must hit the ball in the air or your coach is not doing it right. While I greatly prefer line drives and mashed flyballs, I can't believe a hard ground ball is the devil or that situational hitting is dead.
And the whole point of games is to win them, as you develop kids to be the best they can be. If you're not trying to win then you're just at a showcase.
Of course if this defense comes to high school fields, I take back everything I said about ground balls:
I'll just stick with "can the kid hit or not". Numbers are what they are and too often the qualitative side of things are lost in the discussion. Our beloved game is hard enough to play without all the "extra" things to think about and if anyone here doesn't think the average HS player is going to the plate thinking about all this; well.... I'm amazed at how some of the all time great players ever survived without all this. Yes, I'm just a frustrated HS Coach who has grown weary of this debate and how players all believe they are built from the same mold because the numbers say they should be. Be who you are, work hard, and be open to all thoughts and ideas on how to be better.
2020dad posted:old_school posted:Had an interesting conversation last night in the cage with my 2017. he has been working at school, with some friends, over the winter with his travel program. last night was only the 2nd night I got spend in the cage with him since last fall. he is a thick kid, left handed power, typically has the one of the top averages on his various teams. he projects to be left handed power with average for college as well.
I noticed his swing looked a little different, I also had notice from some pics of game AB's this spring that he looked a bit different. So he proceeds to explain to me what he has been working to develop a little more tilt so he can improve his launch angles slightly... this is a kid who has never hit the ball on the ground.
So we talked and tossed and I watched, he is good, he is getting more lift, I noticed it in the games this spring I just didn't realize it was an intentional act...his average is down slightly, his power numbers are up in a bigger jump. the combo is tough to argue with.
Point being it is all about age appropriate timing. if he had been working on this stuff at 14 it would have been a waste. IMO - what did amaze me is the power an 18 YR old develops, I have soft tossed him thousands of times for years but now the balls just come screaming off his bat. You can hear the difference, no gun needed.
Why would it be a waste at 14? Why is it ever a waste to improve? Even if some were caught on the warning track at 14 wouldn't many have gone for doubles, triples and homers? I have seen many many 14's who have at least the capability to hit the ball 350 to 400 feet.
you lose me here, I have not seen many 14u that can do this consistently, specifically not with wood or BBcor. back in the BSR days I would be more inclined to give you more leeway on this.
2019Dad posted:Of course if this defense comes to high school fields, I take back everything I said about ground balls:
Several years ago, there was a high school player in our area who ended up a first round MLB draft choice. As I recall, he frequently faced a four-man outfield.
cabbagedad posted:
As far as hitting the back of the cage... you can youtube MLB and top college guys (with college, it is coaches with players) doing hitting drills in cages. Many of them clearly are intentionally trying to hit the back of the net, several even stating exactly that. As I've stated in previous posts, I don't dispute the 15 - 25 degree stats at the MLB level. But even many of those hits came about with the intent to just hit hard line drives. Yes, some MLB players swing with intent to lift. Not all. Doesn't mean it's what every HS player should do, or even most.
With that I'll agree. Hitting Drills. There is a purpose. Heck we'll drill it when the kid gets too upright. We have all seen the Chipper Jones video. But do those same players take pre-game BP trying to hit the back of the cage (1-2 hoppers off the infield)? Everyone I have seen laces lines drives all over the field. Except, Mike Trout. There was a story floating around that he was trying to hit a particular garbage dumpster beyond the seats in spring training. They had to move the dumpster to different areas so he would hit to all fields.
My frustration lies in batting practice and evaluation. Some coaches evaluate their players via hitting the back of the cage during live pitching. So you start 0-0. What do they want? Hit the back of the cage. 1-1, hit the back of the cage. 2-1, hit the back of the cage. After we do all the drills, what are we trying to do? When the pitching is live, I want the double. Why? It works Ebry tyne. Doubles hit the top of the cage.
Golfman25 posted:cabbagedad posted:
As far as hitting the back of the cage... you can youtube MLB and top college guys (with college, it is coaches with players) doing hitting drills in cages. Many of them clearly are intentionally trying to hit the back of the net, several even stating exactly that. As I've stated in previous posts, I don't dispute the 15 - 25 degree stats at the MLB level. But even many of those hits came about with the intent to just hit hard line drives. Yes, some MLB players swing with intent to lift. Not all. Doesn't mean it's what every HS player should do, or even most.
My frustration lies in batting practice and evaluation. Some coaches evaluate their players via hitting the back of the cage during live pitching. So you start 0-0. What do they want? Hit the back of the cage. 1-1, hit the back of the cage. 2-1, hit the back of the cage. After we do all the drills, what are we trying to do? When the pitching is live, I want the double. Why? It works Ebry tyne. Doubles hit the top of the cage.
That makes plenty of sense. We take 90% of our BP swings on the field, and I end up fighting the opposite sometimes. We have a small park where the predominant wind blows out to LF, sometimes 20mph+. Kids will hit a wind-aided 305 ft weak flyball and have it leave the yard. Then they can't understand why I'm not chestbumping them and hitting them 3-hole.
The key is to have an intelligent coach who can evaluate kids abilities, needs, and potential in different environments, and then communicate that effectively to the player to help him get better. (I'm nowhere near that coach unfortunately.) Sometimes a kid may need to hear "line drive back of cage," and sometimes we may need to try and get him to pull and elevate.
All I know is that in baseball there are very few, if any, absolutes. And as soon as someone starts telling me their way is the only way, my interest in what they have to say diminishes greatly.
I am not even sure where to begin...
how bout here. There are tons of 14's who can hit the ball 350-400. Let's just take the low end of that. 350 feet is 90mph of exit velo. That translates to about low to mid 80's off the tee. Look at showcase results. There are a good number of kids who can do that. And in the states that allow hot bats for 14u there are certainly lots and lots. If we want to talk 15u/freshman I won't say it is commonplace but it certainly isn't rare. And I would guess at least half of anything decent travel team can achieve that.
The greats of all time didn't think about all this... they did it naturally!
developing the kid to be the best he can be is obviously also going to help his team! But I do find it hypocritical how we here so often that development should come before winning... right up til somebody doesn't agree with your development path lol!
There are some absolutes trouble is too many people don't want to accept it! And Ted Williams talked to anyone who would listen about these same things 50+ years ago! And still some want to rip the 'hitting gurus'!
What applies inMLB certainly does apply in younger ages. Well at least we don't hear much anymore the old "don't watch the pros you will pick up bad habits" so I guess that is progress. Fact of the matter is the MLB swing should be copied by anyone who wants to be great - or even really good. There are not different swings for different ages - that is a myth and if you buy into it you will put your kid behind.
And last but not least the old 'most players won't play at the next level' Well that is statistically true I suppose. But first I would guess most here don't feel they are in that category. Truth is there is a place for just about any serious player who wants to play. And even so should we teach them the wrong way to do things simply because we think most will not play at the next level?
old_school posted:2020dad posted:old_school posted:Had an interesting conversation last night in the cage with my 2017. he has been working at school, with some friends, over the winter with his travel program. last night was only the 2nd night I got spend in the cage with him since last fall. he is a thick kid, left handed power, typically has the one of the top averages on his various teams. he projects to be left handed power with average for college as well.
I noticed his swing looked a little different, I also had notice from some pics of game AB's this spring that he looked a bit different. So he proceeds to explain to me what he has been working to develop a little more tilt so he can improve his launch angles slightly... this is a kid who has never hit the ball on the ground.
So we talked and tossed and I watched, he is good, he is getting more lift, I noticed it in the games this spring I just didn't realize it was an intentional act...his average is down slightly, his power numbers are up in a bigger jump. the combo is tough to argue with.
Point being it is all about age appropriate timing. if he had been working on this stuff at 14 it would have been a waste. IMO - what did amaze me is the power an 18 YR old develops, I have soft tossed him thousands of times for years but now the balls just come screaming off his bat. You can hear the difference, no gun needed.
Why would it be a waste at 14? Why is it ever a waste to improve? Even if some were caught on the warning track at 14 wouldn't many have gone for doubles, triples and homers? I have seen many many 14's who have at least the capability to hit the ball 350 to 400 feet.
you lose me here, I have not seen many 14u that can do this consistently, specifically not with wood or BBcor. back in the BSR days I would be more inclined to give you more leeway on this.
And quite honestly the reason they can not do it more consistently is all this coaching for years teaching them to hit the back of the cage!!! Back in the day when we played pick up games and didn't have enough guys it was right field out and you turned and burned and hit the damn ball in the air!! Come on old timers - you know it's true! I don't know who started this ground ball thing but it was us old guys! We played home run derby, three flies, put marks on the grass or walls or whatever and the higher and farther you hit it the better. Old school if you are really old school tell me when you and your friends ever got together to challenge each other to a ground ball hitting contest!!
It's the era of the batting cage that has made coaches dumber. Fortunately the great players know better!
2020dad posted:
There are some absolutes trouble is too many people don't want to accept it! And Ted Williams talked to anyone who would listen about these same things 50+ years ago! And still some want to rip the 'hitting gurus'!
What do you feel are the absolutes? I agree there are a few. And which absolutes don't people want to accept?
ironhorse posted:2020dad posted:
There are some absolutes trouble is too many people don't want to accept it! And Ted Williams talked to anyone who would listen about these same things 50+ years ago! And still some want to rip the 'hitting gurus'!
What do you feel are the absolutes? I agree there are a few. And which absolutes don't people want to accept?
Well let's start with the obvious. There are still those that teach - and mean it not as a cue - the level swing. There are still those who do the silly demonstrations with their hands while teaching "swing down to make the ball go up". There is no shortage of those who honestly believe you should hit the inside top half of the ball and somehow magically the ball will still be able to find the LC gap! It is an absolute that MLB players are the best in the world and copying them is probably a pretty good idea. It is an absolute that 'just meet the ball' is a bad idea. You need good exit velocity just to get it out of the infield unless you have somehow perfected the Texas leaguer swing. How is that for just a start?
Golfman25 posted:... When the pitching is live, I want the double. Why? It works Ebry tyne. Doubles hit the top of the cage.
Well, I wish I knew of players who could hit doubles when they wanted to 
I get the point but disagree with the method when it comes to most HS players. I have found that there will be far more success with line drive purpose as opposed to lift intent, not only with overall hits but also with XBH's. The result of line drive intent is optimal barreling consistency, which results in more XBH, whether low liners in the gaps and down the lines or those caught slightly under, which backspin and carry even better over top and in the gaps. Also, certain pitch types/locations will induce slightly more lift in the swing. With line drive purpose, that added tilt is like to remain on plane with the pitch and produce better results. When there is lift purpose, good barrel consistency is even more difficult with these pitches. And barreled balls, then, are more often just very high fly balls.
I have a current player who is the perfect example. Strong and athletic, capable of banging the fences. Came in this Spring with a lift swing. Struggled with K's and consistency. When he barreled it, it was good... doubles. Just not as often as he was capable. If you are thinking he just needs to be sharper, this was not a case of lack of work and reps. We got his swing on plane and with a line drive intent. Now he is hitting for average and power with far fewer K's. He is hitting more XBH's and just as many over the top. Now, the slight misses are often good results. Before, they were not. This is consistent with what I have seen over the years regarding players' swing plane and launch intent.
cabbagedad posted:Golfman25 posted:... When the pitching is live, I want the double. Why? It works Ebry tyne. Doubles hit the top of the cage.Well, I wish I knew of players who could hit doubles when they wanted to
I get the point but disagree with the method when it comes to most HS players. I have found that there will be far more success with line drive purpose as opposed to lift intent, not only with overall hits but also with XBH's. The result of line drive intent is optimal barreling consistency, which results in more XBH, whether low liners in the gaps and down the lines or those caught slightly under, which backspin and carry even better over top and in the gaps. Also, certain pitch types/locations will induce slightly more lift in the swing. With line drive purpose, that added tilt is like to remain on plane with the pitch and produce better results. When there is lift purpose, good barrel consistency is even more difficult with these pitches. And barreled balls, then, are more often just very high fly balls.
I have a current player who is the perfect example. Strong and athletic, capable of banging the fences. Came in this Spring with a lift swing. Struggled with K's and consistency. When he barreled it, it was good... doubles. Just not as often as he was capable. If you are thinking he just needs to be sharper, this was not a case of lack of work and reps. We got his swing on plane and with a line drive intent. Now he is hitting for average and power with far fewer K's. He is hitting more XBH's and just as many over the top. Now, the slight misses are often good results. Before, they were not. This is consistent with what I have seen over the years regarding players' swing plane and launch intent.
Agree 100%. But line drives hit the top of the cage. It's a mathematical fact (unless you have some 40 foot tall cage).
2020dad posted:old_school posted:2020dad posted:old_school posted:Had an interesting conversation last night in the cage with my 2017. he has been working at school, with some friends, over the winter with his travel program. last night was only the 2nd night I got spend in the cage with him since last fall. he is a thick kid, left handed power, typically has the one of the top averages on his various teams. he projects to be left handed power with average for college as well.
I noticed his swing looked a little different, I also had notice from some pics of game AB's this spring that he looked a bit different. So he proceeds to explain to me what he has been working to develop a little more tilt so he can improve his launch angles slightly... this is a kid who has never hit the ball on the ground.
So we talked and tossed and I watched, he is good, he is getting more lift, I noticed it in the games this spring I just didn't realize it was an intentional act...his average is down slightly, his power numbers are up in a bigger jump. the combo is tough to argue with.
Point being it is all about age appropriate timing. if he had been working on this stuff at 14 it would have been a waste. IMO - what did amaze me is the power an 18 YR old develops, I have soft tossed him thousands of times for years but now the balls just come screaming off his bat. You can hear the difference, no gun needed.
Why would it be a waste at 14? Why is it ever a waste to improve? Even if some were caught on the warning track at 14 wouldn't many have gone for doubles, triples and homers? I have seen many many 14's who have at least the capability to hit the ball 350 to 400 feet.
you lose me here, I have not seen many 14u that can do this consistently, specifically not with wood or BBcor. back in the BSR days I would be more inclined to give you more leeway on this.
And quite honestly the reason they can not do it more consistently is all this coaching for years teaching them to hit the back of the cage!!! Back in the day when we played pick up games and didn't have enough guys it was right field out and you turned and burned and hit the damn ball in the air!! Come on old timers - you know it's true! I don't know who started this ground ball thing but it was us old guys! We played home run derby, three flies, put marks on the grass or walls or whatever and the higher and farther you hit it the better. Old school if you are really old school tell me when you and your friends ever got together to challenge each other to a ground ball hitting contest!!
Heck we typically didn't have enough infielders. So ground balls where outs. 
We used to play in my back yard. Starting in grade school. Then one day we grew up. Started hitting the neighbors house in left field (they had a nice big window). There was a grain silo on the farm behind my house. We knew we were getting too big when my good buddy put one on the top of that silo. It was da bomb. After that, we had to move to a real field.
2020Dad, I agree with most of what you just posted. Huge Ted Williams fan here. He said a slight uppercut. Same thing with most current MLB hitters, slight uppercut.
2020dad posted:ironhorse posted:2020dad posted:
There are some absolutes trouble is too many people don't want to accept it! And Ted Williams talked to anyone who would listen about these same things 50+ years ago! And still some want to rip the 'hitting gurus'!
What do you feel are the absolutes? I agree there are a few. And which absolutes don't people want to accept?
Well let's start with the obvious. There are still those that teach - and mean it not as a cue - the level swing. There are still those who do the silly demonstrations with their hands while teaching "swing down to make the ball go up". There is no shortage of those who honestly believe you should hit the inside top half of the ball and somehow magically the ball will still be able to find the LC gap! It is an absolute that MLB players are the best in the world and copying them is probably a pretty good idea. It is an absolute that 'just meet the ball' is a bad idea. You need good exit velocity just to get it out of the infield unless you have somehow perfected the Texas leaguer swing. How is that for just a start?
Not a very good start honestly. If I was a player not sure I'd grasp all those absolutes due to the negative examples. Not that I disagree with some of where you're going.
To me, absolute: a swing that keeps the barrel on plane in the zone for the longest time possible gives the best chance for consistent contact. To me, that can't be argued. Might have different ideas of on plane, but once really delved into the plane of the pitch is the plane of the pitch, no matter opinions.
So what hitting absolutes do you have?
And I would disagree that studying "major leaguers is always the best idea. Dependent on the kid and the MLB player.
Here is a good explanation for the swing level of some pros
Basically the swing is level to the chest/top of the shoulders and the body tilt causes a slight uppercut. In a cage swing they engage less in the legs and hips so the swing is quite flat. In a game swing the spine angle slightly changes and you swing up more.
2020dad posted:.Why would it be a waste at 14? Why is it ever a waste to improve? Even if some were caught on the warning track at 14 wouldn't many have gone for doubles, triples and homers? I have seen many many 14's who have at least the capability to hit the ball 350 to 400 feet.
you lose me here, I have not seen many 14u that can do this consistently, specifically not with wood or BBcor. back in the BSR days I would be more inclined to give you more leeway on this.
And quite honestly the reason they can not do it more consistently is all this coaching for years teaching them to hit the back of the cage!!! ...
Come on, man... REALLY? THAT'S why most 14 y.o.'s can't hit it 350-400' ???
Most 14 y.o.'s can't hit the ball that far consistently because they aren't physically developed enough to hit the ball that far, regardless of mechanics or swing plane. PERIOD.
Hell, our field is typical HS dims - 325 down the line, 375 straight away. The ball rarely leaves the yard in BP or in games by our varsity players or any other team's V players and when it does, it's usually nearer the corners, closer to 325 than 350. That's 15-18 y.o. V players. 14 y.o. JV guys? consistently? ... no. And this includes the kids who are trying to elevate.
This thread got me thinking about my son's swing. I never taught him to lift the ball on purpose but I think he has a natural lift element to his swing. I told him that his goal should be to barrel up as many as possible and he can't control the outcome.
I checked tonight and will admit that's it a VERY small sample size but every one of his base hits have been in the air (one line drive between first and second) and all three ground balls have resulted in outs. Obviously, he's made out in the air as well.
I will continue to monitor throughout the last four regular season games and playoffs.
ironhorse posted:cabbagedad posted:We keep rehashing the same old stuff in this thread...
Our HS varsity team uses situational hitting. Our team takes a line drive approach, not a "lift" intent. We put a premium on line drives and discourage fly balls and ground balls unless situationally appropriate. We modify slightly with the outlier speed guy or true power guy. Currently, we are considered the best hitting team in a decent California HS league that regularly has multiple teams chasing the equivalent of state in our division. There is only one team in our league that has more extra base hits than we do. Yet, we have scored over 20% more runs.
Most good HS AND college programs I am familiar with use the same approach and I make it a point to be familiar with many. It is age and skill level appropriate. Hitting behind the runner is definitely not dead. We executed this in a key inning, as well as multiple bunts in another, just last night. I talk to college players regularly who are taught the same thing we teach and are asked to execute situationally similar to us on a regular basis.
If you are seeing "many many 14's who at least have the capability to hit the ball 350 to 400 feet", you are in a different world than I am and I'm in California where there is an abundance of good baseball. There are plenty of reasons why you would not want to teach a 14 y.o. to lift. How capable is he of getting the ball over the top and with what consistency? What will that do to his ability to keep the barrel on plane with the ball for an optimal length of time? Etc., etc. There are plenty of reasons to teach a HS player how to be successful today instead of just focusing on what he may be able to do at the next level or when they get much stronger. Here's one - Most HS players are not going to play at the next level. Their baseball lives, memories, experiences hinge on what they can do to succeed now.
I am very in tune to what sabermetrics is bringing to the table, what the resulting changes are and how it affects decisions at the MLB level. I am always trying to learn and keep up with any changes I should be making for my players. In many cases, what applies to MLB players and that game does not apply as best practice to other levels.
As far as hitting the back of the cage... you can youtube MLB and top college players doing hitting drills in cages. Many of them clearly are intentionally trying to hit the back of the net, several even stating exactly that. As I've stated in previous posts, I don't dispute the 15 - 25 degree stats at the MLB level. But even many of those hits came about with the intent to just hit hard line drives. Yes, some MLB players swing with intent to lift. Not all. Doesn't mean it's what every HS player should do, or even most.
I wanted to add to this, but can't I agree with pretty much every bit of it.
While I understand the point of the conversations, it seems there is always a trend with "hitting gurus" that they believe is an absolute. And it changes every 5 years or so. Right now everyone must hit the ball in the air or your coach is not doing it right. While I greatly prefer line drives and mashed flyballs, I can't believe a hard ground ball is the devil or that situational hitting is dead.
And the whole point of games is to win them, as you develop kids to be the best they can be. If you're not trying to win then you're just at a showcase.
There is a fair amount of good observation here. Well said.
2020dad posted:
how bout here. There are tons of 14's who can hit the ball 350-400. Let's just take the low end of that. 350 feet is 90mph of exit velo. That translates to about low to mid 80's off the tee. Look at showcase results. There are a good number of kids who can do that. And in the states that allow hot bats for 14u there are certainly lots and lots. If we want to talk 15u/freshman I won't say it is commonplace but it certainly isn't rare. And I would guess at least half of anything decent travel team can achieve that.
this is a key point, there aren't "tons of 14's" who can do this...your next sentence is "if you want to talk 15u I won't say it is commonplace" you can't have it both ways.
the 14u kid hitting bombs with a balloon bat doesn't sudden get worse over the winter before 15u - he is now using a big boy bat. When you graduate to the real bats you will learn that the math you are so proud of doesn't apply...
Even if the kids are able to generate the EV numbers that you are quoting off a T that just shows how tough it is to square it up. Based on your comments and the numbers you are using the HR and over all power numbers for HS and college should be WAY WAY higher then they are...it is either much tougher then you think or the whole world is stupid.
I realize it is possible that your math is correct and you are just the smartest guy in the room! Real world variables apply, the data doesn't back up the math at the younger levels below college or at a minimum Varsity ball and I am one of the guys who kind of agrees with you!!
