Metrics / Data

You raise an interesting issue. I had always thought of all those metrics as being used for recruiting for the next level (whatever that next level was). Now I'm trying to remember whether my son's HS coach took those measurements, and if so, what he did with them.

Other than having justification to cut kids (and why can't you cut them without knowing this data?), how else would you use them?  To make a lineup?  Positioning (stronger infield arm plays 3b or ss)?  How do these numbers relate to what you see when they practice, which is presumably how you've been doing it all these years?

I'll try to give you some quick answers, but there are soo many angles to view the question you pose...

Varsity level metrics:

FB Velo: 85 plus can live with FB - 80ish gets hammered - high to mid 70s gets weak contact if spotted

Exit Velo: 80 plus usually finds grass - Attack angle/launch angle etc.. is a whole thread to it's self.

60 times: Position specific, but its safe to say anything 7 sec and below will produce a high BA and OBP 

Answer to #5: These numbers mean little to nothing if the kid, or the coach, has no feel for the game. Winning starts with the culture of the program. Sometimes we may need to look in the mirror if we are not getting the results we think we should. Also, local high schools are notorious for having up and down years. Most places don't have the luxury of "reloading" every year. They just simply don't have the numbers.

Thanks guys and a little background might  be helpful. I've been a HS coach for almost 30 years.  I was a HC in Kentucky for 9 years then moved to NC to be an assistant.  I was an AC for 4 years then became athletic director and stepped away from baseball for about 5 years.  The past 5 years I've been AD and head baseball coach.  Doing both was tough when it came to time management then throw in the fact we had to get through COVID.  The two years before COVID (my first two as HC at my current school) we were pretty good.  Second in conference both years and lost in 2nd round of playoffs.  COVID year we played 3 or 4 games.  The past two years we have been terrible.  There's many reasons why I gave up being AD and the two biggest are I want to spend more time with my family.  I'm tired of the 50 to 60 hour weeks, leaving the house at 7:30 in the morning and not getting home until 10 or 11 after my wife and daughter have went to bed got super old.  The breaking point was when my 7 year old daughter asked if I was going to be at a school play and I said I couldn't because I had to work (we had a home event that night) and the look on her face broke my heart.  I finished out the school year but I started preparing to transition to my assistant who wanted the job.

Because fall sports are a beast for AD's I've never had any type of fall workout because didn't have the time.  When I took over we were really weak because the previous HC wouldn't let the guys lift.  I've been preaching get in our weight lifting classes but honestly we are still really far behind where we need be.  It's starting to change because more guys are starting to take it serious but not enough.  I wonder if my prior commitments to AD have helped keep this from taking off.

I don't like the culture of my team.  It's not a negative culture in that kids don't care but they don't think there is a chance to advance to the next level.  I think that belief is in the back of their head holding them back even if they don't realize it.  I want to try and change the mindset that yes you can go play at the next level.  So how do I do that?

My guys have heard of these categories but haven't been exposed to them where they get evaluated.  So we have no baseline for where we are ability wise.  My belief is if I know what an overall ballpark HS baseball player average is I can start painting a big picture of getting to the next level is out of the realm of possibility.  If I can generate numbers of where they are now and compare it to where it is with an average we can focus our work in practice to close that gap.  So if in September they are X points away from average then we re-evaluate in January and they have closed the gap by X number of points I'm hoping it now becomes the dangling carrot to incentivize working harder.  While I'm doing this for everyone I want my biggest impact to be with my freshmen.  We can show a growing 4 year trend of improvement and hopefully they can now generate some college interest (along with the myriad of other things needed to get to the next level).

Honestly, I don't see this helping me determine who plays what position or batting order or anything like that.  That's what me and my coaches get paid for to make those decisions.  As for making cuts what I saw as AD the past few years is parents wanting to know why their kid was cut and the general answers of they are weak in whatever area(s) doesn't seem to be enough anymore.  So if a parent has an issue then I can show them where they are.  I'm not saying you must reach a certain number to make the team.  It's part of the process that hasn't changed in evaluating talent.  It's a tool to show here is definitive measurable proof why a guy isn't good enough to be on the team.  It won't stop all parents but why not give it a shot?

Maybe this won't work but I need to try something different.  I am not happy with where my team is and that is 100% my fault.  Things need to change and right now this is my current plan........but I'm definitely open to other ideas LOL

I can see where this would be useful if you combined it with some type of "name brand" program.  Measure velocity before and after a Driveline weighted balls or Jaeger long toss throwing program.  Maybe offer both and compare? This would give some initial interest. They both have "free" versions. See what gives you some results and you can blow the program's improvement horn to get interest next year. 

Maybe a Driveline heavy, light, bat swing training program, etc.  Maybe get a local swing guru to get involved to tout his program.

Get a track coach to help work on sprints or just get a sprint program from someone.

Lot's of options to encourage participation if you can prove results.

Here is a link to "recommended" measurables.

https://www.tpcollegeshowcase....nce-information.html

Just because kids get these numbers is not a guarantee. Just a reference.

Quick way to get what you want... look up any kid with a Baseball Factory webpage that actually lists metrics.  Next to each score is a button that says Scale; hit that to see the range for that particular skill.  If you want, you can also further hit the button which says "See Our Complete Tool Grade Scale."  You should find exactly what you need.

Coach;

sit down with 3-4 of your players, ask for their input as to impressions of the team and goals for improvement. Ask your players what summer team did they play on. What did they learn?

The track coach is a very good idea and maybe when the players have improved their speed, you can create "running" as your team's philosophy. Can you have daily inter squad games with everyone pitching, including the coaches. Keep a record of each player [defense/ offense]. This will help with parent discussion.

A player's reaction in games differs from metric testing. My favorite are RBI and AB and LOB.

Can you use football, basketball players in the Spring. They can add a competitive value. Do you use a 34" or 37" fungo?

Bob

My kid's HS league (small school, HA) probably averaged low 70s off the mound, and upper 70s would bring much success.  Down the road the Trinity League kids are high 80s into the 90s.  You might consider asking some peers who coach other teams in your league what they think are good average numbers for your school.

@anotherparent posted:

You raise an interesting issue. I had always thought of all those metrics as being used for recruiting for the next level (whatever that next level was). Now I'm trying to remember whether my son's HS coach took those measurements, and if so, what he did with them.

Other than having justification to cut kids (and why can't you cut them without knowing this data?), how else would you use them?  To make a lineup?  Positioning (stronger infield arm plays 3b or ss)?  How do these numbers relate to what you see when they practice, which is presumably how you've been doing it all these years?

Sometimes additional data helps the coach when the parent of a cut kid runs to the AD to complain.

Good metrics don't mean you can play the game but bad metrics can mean you can't play the game at a certain level.

You have to be a good ballplayer first but there are more high school performers than there are D1 spots and experience is that certain metrics need to be reached to make it at a higher level, for example a 75 mph fastball on the mound or a 7.5 60 in center usally won't cut it at the college level even if your HS stats were good.

Coach:

Can you measure Baseball IQ? The "inquisitive mind?

They are assets to a "winning" team. Learn the "WHY" of your players. Their motivation for playing baseball.

Bob

@RJM posted:

Sometimes additional data helps the coach when the parent of a cut kid runs to the AD to complain.

This‼️

I'm going to admit that I found this original post a bit agitating - primarily for the reason that the post lists 14/15 year olds. At this age (if they can play - sound mechanics, good coordination / contact skills and are athletic) a lot of it's about projection...

Having speed, high contact rate and well below average exit velocity in HS can translate to being a huge contributor. Having great fielding skills and a below average arm can also be invaluable. A pitcher that competes with below average stuff is always coming up big on the HS field. Lastly, (shout out to Bob) a kid with an exceptional baseball IQ, that does exactly what needs to be done, at the exact moment it's required can trump a lot of physical gifts.  

It's HS ball, it's about putting the best kids on the field, but it's also about heart and growth. My kid played HS 4 years with a bullpen catcher that only saw 1 HS at bat (the 1 AB is another story - forever batting 1.000 in HS). I'm sure his metrics sucked, but his attitude and selflessness brought the entire team up!

It's HS, it's about winning, but I believe the intangibles that can't be measured are incredibly important - maybe more important metrics.

@JucoDad posted:

I'm going to admit that I found this original post a bit agitating - primarily for the reason that the post lists 14/15 year olds. At this age (if they can play - sound mechanics, good coordination / contact skills and are athletic) a lot of it's about projection...

Having speed, high contact rate and well below average exit velocity in HS can translate to being a huge contributor. Having great fielding skills and a below average arm can also be invaluable. A pitcher that competes with below average stuff is always coming up big on the HS field. Lastly, (shout out to Bob) a kid with an exceptional baseball IQ, that does exactly what needs to be done, at the exact moment it's required can trump a lot of physical gifts.  

It's HS ball, it's about putting the best kids on the field, but it's also about heart and growth. My kid played HS 4 years with a bullpen catcher that only saw 1 HS at bat (the 1 AB is another story - forever batting 1.000 in HS). I'm sure his metrics sucked, but his attitude and selflessness brought the entire team up!

It's HS, it's about winning, but I believe the intangibles that can't be measured are incredibly important - maybe more important metrics.

I respect this outlook and to be honest I completely share it.  I'm not looking to use metrics as a replacement to coaching.  I want to use it as a motivation to individually get better or as better as they can with their athletic ceiling.  I want to use it to take the kid with lesser talent / metrics and get them better using the intangibles they already have. 

We are going to work out to get better - either as a team or individually - what's wrong with quantifying progression?  There will still be a place for that kid who is a team guy who gets the one at bat in HS.  But why not use numbers to try and make them better and hopefully get more than 1 AB in high school?

I've had a lot of success as a coach not using these numbers specifically but using my eyes / experience to basically assess these things.  That's not going to change except by using these metrics to better explain why in certain situations - lack of playing time, getting cut, to get recruited, etc........

Hope this explains my intentions better

@Consultant posted:

Coach;

sit down with 3-4 of your players, ask for their input as to impressions of the team and goals for improvement. Ask your players what summer team did they play on. What did they learn?

The track coach is a very good idea and maybe when the players have improved their speed, you can create "running" as your team's philosophy. Can you have daily inter squad games with everyone pitching, including the coaches. Keep a record of each player [defense/ offense]. This will help with parent discussion.

A player's reaction in games differs from metric testing. My favorite are RBI and AB and LOB.

Can you use football, basketball players in the Spring. They can add a competitive value. Do you use a 34" or 37" fungo?

Bob

Hey Bob,

I have already started doing this to some degree.  I sent out a form they filled out asking their input in various areas.  I read through it this summer and while I started using this last year it's become my go to mantra with them now - everyone likes to win but very few want to win.  Liking to win means if it happens great but if not then oh well.  Wanting to win means it's important and you work towards that goal.  I tell them it's OK if they love other sports more than baseball but if they want to play baseball they need to respect it and be the best they can be.

I offered a summer team this year but told my older guys to play on the highest level team competitively they could.  My summer team was aimed at the younger guys to be more fundamental driven and how to play than competitively to win.  I feel like it was very successful although we lost more than we won because we were able to do a lot of teaching.  My older guys played for various travel teams and got some valuable exposure.  To me it was a win / win situation.

To be honest I have no idea what fungo I use.  I tend to get a knock off version of the SSK LOL

@JETSR71 posted:

I can see where this would be useful if you combined it with some type of "name brand" program.  Measure velocity before and after a Driveline weighted balls or Jaeger long toss throwing program.  Maybe offer both and compare? This would give some initial interest. They both have "free" versions. See what gives you some results and you can blow the program's improvement horn to get interest next year.

Maybe a Driveline heavy, light, bat swing training program, etc.  Maybe get a local swing guru to get involved to tout his program.

Get a track coach to help work on sprints or just get a sprint program from someone.

Lot's of options to encourage participation if you can prove results.

Here is a link to "recommended" measurables.

https://www.tpcollegeshowcase....nce-information.html

Just because kids get these numbers is not a guarantee. Just a reference.

This was VERY helpful and great ideas.  Thank you very much.  That website for recommended measurables is amazing.  That might be more beneficial than what I'm looking for on the average HS metrics (but also emphasizing that numbers isn't enough to get to the next level).  I bookmarked the site so I will be visiting it quite often

So thought I would revisit this after I was able to get some numbers on my guys in a few areas.  Honestly, it validates my previous thought that we need to get stronger overall in an athletic setting.  We worked out for 3 weeks before measuring anything.  Showed them proper techniques and form.

On the 60 yard sprint we di/ d 3 runs and took an average.  They got about 2 minutes between sprints but they had to run against themselves because I was the only one down there.

We told them the average was 7.5 and our average was 8.5.  Slowest average was 10.4 and fastest was 7.2.  Also, had a 9.8 and 10.0 to go along with the 10.5 so those three kids are really hurting the average (I haven't had time to filter them out)

On the home to first we did 3 runs and took an average.  They got about minute and a half between sprints and ran against themselves again.

Told them the average was 4.5 RH / 4.4 for LH.  Our average was 4.5.  Slowest was 5.6 and fastest was 3.9 (LH).  It looks like the three anomalies from above are closer to the norm here than above which is interesting.

Next we tested IF velo.  I set up some cones at short and started everyone there to try and create some consistency in production.  We gave them 3 groundballs and went back to back to back.

Told them the average was 70 MPH.  Our average was 59.  Slowest was 28 MPH (his third throw didn't even register on the pocket radar so I put his second throw in for his third as well).  Our fastest was 74 but had 3 kids sit out from sore arms and they have our better arms.

Last thing we measured was velo off tee.  I gave them time to do some front toss, tee work before getting into my cage.  I gave them two swings then measured the last 3 to create an average.

Told them JV average was 80 MPH and varsity was 85 MPH.  Our average was 64.  Slowest was 47 and fastest was 82.  Once again I think my 3 kids who were the anomalies above pulled the average down significantly again.

My overall thoughts are I am glad I did this but it is absolutely in no way super scientific.  I told the guys there are problems with everything in comparison to going someplace to get this done professionally.  All running would be timed with a laser instead of me holding a stopwatch and various other things.  I told them nobody would ever see these numbers but me and them so don't worry about a bad day meaning you can't play HS or the next level.  These are numbers where we need to improve upon in about 5 weeks before we enter a dead period.  Another problem is comparing a 14 / 15 to a 17 / 18 year old isn't fair due to maturity.  Last thing I said is that these numbers aren't going to be the reason someone gets cut in February.  It might be part of the thought process but not the deciding factor.

One thing I believe I am going to do differently is set some standards because some of them started trying to get a number vs doing things smoothly / easily and seeing where they were.  For example on the throwing I won't count an attempt if it's too high or in the dirt.  On the tee if they don't hit a nice line drive back up the middle then I won't count it.

Like I said I'm glad I did it because I think it justifies my concerns we are too weak.  These aren't any type of indicator that someone is good or bad but can show areas where improvements can be made to better themselves.  While my 3 anomalies skill level is obviously not very good and are worthy of being cut in that alone based on my eye of being a coach for almost 30 years I now have data that proves they are well below the average we set.  If they can show significant improvement by Feb then maybe we need to revisit whether we keep them or not.  But these numbers can give them an idea of where they are and where they need to be.  Who knows I may keep them based on improvement and work ethic although they are still below our averages.

At this point I open it up to you guys to nitpick what / how I did things because I want to learn how to use this tool to make us better.

In my biased opinion, the kids I knew who played live and died off metrics, sometimes misinterpreting the data (impatiently living and dying off incremental metrics improvement) or misusing them (social media braggadocio).  The upside is often it does improve their abilities when coupled with a good training regimen.

Does your state/school allow off-season training? My kids HS team lifts through-out the winter. The have an established program that is followed year to year to year. Almost every HS kid needs nutrition and the weight room almost as much as they need the field. When kids start to getting bigger/stronger/faster the game really starts to slow down for them.

And for god sake offer the kid with a 28mph FB the team manager position. However, if he could figure out how to land a 28mph strike that would be one heck of an eephus.... jm2c....

@ReluctantO'sFan posted:

However, if he could figure out how to land a 28mph strike that would be one heck of an eephus.... jm2c....

@ReluctantO'sFan posted:

Does your state/school allow off-season training? My kids HS team lifts through-out the winter. The have an established program that is followed year to year to year. Almost every HS kid needs nutrition and the weight room almost as much as they need the field. When kids start to getting bigger/stronger/faster the game really starts to slow down for them.

And for god sake offer the kid with a 28mph FB the team manager position. However, if he could figure out how to land a 28mph strike that would be one heck of an eephus.... jm2c....

Our state allows us to lift weights after school OR do baseball for 90 minutes at most.  We are not allowed to do both in the same day.  We do offer weight lifting classes and another class that works on developing the overall athlete through weights, agilities and other things.  So I try to steer them into those classes so we can spend after school working on baseball.  Several guys are taking those classes and they are the better ones but not enough are in there.  Right now I'm the only baseball coach because I lost two coaches - one is a staff member who has a son who is a senior and he wanted to enjoy just watching his son (totally understand and support that - but he also coaches football so he wouldn't be available anyway).  The other coach who stepped down replaced me as Athletic Director so his hands are full as he learns the position.  My other two coaches are coaching other sports currently so it leaves me.  If I had someone else I would split them up and send a group to weight room and another group to the field but obviously cannot do that. Also, I only want to do this 3 days a week and I know that's a failing on my part but I spent the last 10 years staying to 9 or 10 at night 3 to 5 days a week when I was AD.  I'll be honest with you - I want to go home after school some days. 

A buddy of mine who is a fitness / weight lifting instructor gave me the book Movement over Maxes by Zach Dechant and it's amazing.  He coaches football right now so when that's over we are going to sit down and start creating a plan on how to get stronger, faster and flexible.  I'm studying up on Driveline and Jaeger information.  So I don't have a definitive plan in place I'm starting to narrow down to something we can use.  I think we will be better than we were last year but still have a lot of growth.

As for my 28 MPH stud we have been working on his pitching but the problem is we need someone about halfway to finish getting the ball to the plate LOL.  He's a great kid who tries really hard.  I know the conversation about him not being on the team and maybe be a manager is coming but right now he is "playing" baseball and he's happy.  The rest of the guys are great with him and they try to help him best they can.  They look out for him so he's not in jeopardy of getting hurt.  At some point I'm going to tell him he's not good enough to be on the team and honestly that will be it for him so if he can enjoy playing now until we make cuts in Feb I don't want to take that away from him

I hope that some more coaches will chime in here.  But, as a clueless HS parent, I hope you are explaining to your players WHY improving these metrics will help them play better baseball.  If a kid steals lots of bases, he might not understand why his 60 time is so important (for example, to outfielders); if he gets on base a lot by hitting grounders and beating the throw, he won't understand why hitting the ball harder would be better.  It took a lot of reading on this board for me to understand a lot of those things that are obvious to baseball people.

@coach2709 posted:

As for my 28 MPH stud we have been working on his pitching but the problem is we need someone about halfway to finish getting the ball to the plate LOL.  He's a great kid who tries really hard.  I know the conversation about him not being on the team and maybe be a manager is coming but right now he is "playing" baseball and he's happy.  The rest of the guys are great with him and they try to help him best they can.  They look out for him so he's not in jeopardy of getting hurt.  At some point I'm going to tell him he's not good enough to be on the team and honestly that will be it for him so if he can enjoy playing now until we make cuts in Feb I don't want to take that away from him

Food for thought.... In your process of starting a new culture, you might consider not cutting this kid. Obviously he isn't one of the starting 9, but you could still kind of base your team around this guy. This would allow him the opportunity to become a leader. Sometimes winning is more about team comradery than individual talent. I know you still won't beat the good teams, but who really cares? HS baseball is a chance to help mold the character of young men. Understand your expectations (low), then strive to surpass them.

Coach:

would pitch this player at the beginning of a game in the middle or at the end of the game? Do you know the term "team pitching"? "CHANGE THE HITTER"S EYES.

Bob

these metrics should be used for help in development and growth of a player, to have measurable metrics that show progress in strength, speed and mobility, during your training programs,,, not to cut a player or decide who's better at this age.  Especially if you are overseeing the entire program from Freshman Team to JV to Varsity with the idea that the first two are there to develop the Varsity program.

It's an entirely different thing to use these types of metrics at a young age vs. weeding out potential college recruits.

Whatever benchmarks you set, understand that it's not just age or class, but size and physical maturity that need to be taken into consideration when setting those benchmarks.   A fully mature 9th grader may not get that much better in these metrics or show the same increases as another who may surpass them.

IF you incorporate a training program during off seasons, make sure it's open to anyone with an interest of making the team, not just hand picked or current players, you may be surprised by who didn't make the team their freshman year and what they become by junior year.  Being able to show them all their measurables gives them something to work toward improving with the goal of making the freshman team, then jv then varsity.  But if you just use them to cut a player with no opportunity to improve and make it the next year, you may be losing out.

Now when someone reaches the point where they are juniors/seniors and tough choices have to be made on Varsity, you can show them why between johnny and them who are basically equally skilled you went with johnny because he showed improvement, dedication, effort on both the field and the gym, plus a 95mph exit velocity and a 90% barrel percentage, well that may be an easier pill to swallow.

Dechant is my son’s strength coach. He puts a lot of his drills on Instagram as well.  

Our hs school always utilized “optional” after school practices when they weren’t allowed to have organized practice. The older boys lead the drills and our coach watched from a golf cart. It would take a few years to build the new expectations but within a few years you would likely make great gains in terms of culture.

Small town rural school here in KS, we would probably be seeing roughly the same results you posted.  Like  you have said, its a way you can lay out there some data that shows where they are currently at, so you can track  progress. What I have used the data for has to been to avoid the "big fish in a little pond" mentality, particularly for your players that may be thinking they want to make a  run at the next level.  Comparing their results to the results of players who signed to programs, while it doesnt tell the entire picture, it does give a piece of the puzzle.  I have told my son, there are a few metrics I compare to the "you must be this tall to ride" sign.  The tpcollegeshowcase metrics someone linked, great example, and that data could probably be proven out if you take the documented results from PG and PBR for last years signing classes.