Minor League Poverty

Since most MLB have 5 or 6 affiliates they might have to ante up a bit to keep them.  After all having 75 pitchers in your organization has got to be better than 30 if you only had 3 teams.

I don't think the amount of money involved would be large by MLB standards.  Assume there are 100 players at A ball on down in each organization, to bump up pay by say an average of $5,000 per player is $500K per year.  Hardly a bankruptcy expense.

Agree $500,000 is not a bankruptcy expense.  Perhaps each team could cut off an affiliate or two, that should break them back to even.  Then there are a lot less players in "minor league poverty". 

4 teams (25 per team) of players at A or below = 100 players.

$5,000 X 100 = $500k

AA and AAA levels probably have less troubles in this area but if you want to throw AA in then a organization with 6 affiliates would be covering 5 teams or $625k. 

Yes there is always that.  The need for arms will argue against that happening. Old maxim: Have to throw at least 10 against the wall to get 1 or 2 to stick.

50 - 60 years ago it was not uncommon for teams to carry 9-10 or more affiliates and teams like the Yanks, Cards and Dodgers got up to 17 or 19 some seasons. 

By that logic there should be no signing bonuses.  After all what have they done to earn it since they have zero experience in pro ball. 

This is a labor issue and my point was to show it is absolutely unnecessary financially for these players to be hosed the way they are.  A few more crumbs off the table and they can eat better and have a slightly better living arrangement.  No one gets rich.

How it gets split is a detail to the point.  The money is there and if anyone was looking out for these guys they'd get it and probably a lot more.  It is pretty easy to abuse 3,000 individuals that are living a crabs in the bucket life chasing a dream especially when there are another 10,000 standing behind them praying for the chance.

I'm not going to divulge players by name. Many Latin American players send money home. Several MiLB players have families they need to support here. I don't really know how or why it's justified to have a wage scale that almost entirely prohibits these individuals from supporting their families.

Saying that if you're in the minors for 4-5 years, you need to move on is an opinion. It has nothing to do with players' salaries.

I get paid fine, and I do get reimbursed for my expenses. What's the connection between my job and the job of a minor league baseball player?

You find the players that people here have no empathy for. OH! 

OK lets give minor league players minimum wage.  Heck, lets double that.  I am all for it! Do they deserve it, sure, why not?

What I don't understand is how eliminating the draft would change or solve this issue.  Seems the very best prospects would get even more money having 30 clubs bidding for their service.  Definitely the agents would love that.  What do you suppose the 30th round pick is worth on the open market. All 30 clubs passed on him at least 29 times. The large market teams would love getting rid of the draft.

There are players selected earlier than you might expect because they are college seniors with no leverage. Would they be worth more money without the draft? Seems without the draft, the rich would just get richer.  Doubt it would help solve anything for the lower end guys.

I do think players in the minors should be paid better.  But for now there is reality to consider. It is what it is!  The player has a choice if he is drafted or someone wants to sign him as a free agent.  If someone offers you an opportunity, you either take it or you don't. This has nothing to do with working in an accounting firm.  I could shovel dirt all day at $25 an hour and make a decent living or I could be below the poverty line and play baseball. I could sit behind a desk starting out at $60,000 or go play professional baseball. It's my choice if given the opportunity, I would pick baseball. If I really loved flipping burgers for some reason, I might pick that over a high paying job. Bottom line... It is my choice!

Why do college grads attend MLB Tryouts?  Spend there own money traveling to Tryouts hoping they can hook up with one of those poverty level jobs?  Why do grads from the highest academic colleges enter into professional baseball when they could earn $80-$100K starting out doing something else?

If someone had a business that required 10,000 employees, knowing most of them will never end up helping your business profit a dime.  9,000 of those employees will simply be replaced by others and all will be an expense... What would you do? Give everyone a raise?

I look at minor league baseball similar to an extended tryout.  The MLB clubs are looking for MLB players.  It's like going to a MLB try out, and after awhile they keep some around for an extended look.  In this case they have seen the players and signed some for an extended look.  What if minor league baseball had zero salaries?  Maybe they just house you, feed you, and take care of the basic needs.  The players they want the most get big bonus, others are still trying out.  Because somebody decided playing in the Rookie League is a job, it needs to be handled like an accounting firm? The majority of those playing their first year of professional baseball don't look at it as a job.  They are hoping to make it a job and have a career in baseball.  In many ways I look at it as further advanced education.  And we all know how expensive education can be.

Lastly... How do we count hours in order to pay a fair wage to baseball players?  Is it 8 hours a day.  Is it 12 hours a day?  Is it 24 hours a day?

There is no answer to the question "what is a MiLB player worth." 

But I would love to see something that resembles more of a true marketplace that the current system allows, given that MLB has an anti-trust exemption, and the MLB players have exclusive rights to bargain for the pay of MiLB players. 

That ain't a recipe for a market. 

So, I would like to see no draft, but a cap on signing bonuses for each team, based on where the team is in the draft order. 

Also, no collective bargaining contract. Let each player negotiate for the terms. A big bonus might involve a six year commitment, and also get a good monthly salary. Some players (the equivalent of today's undrafted) might sign for a one year commitment, no bonus and low or no monthly pay, just to play and prove himself. Then renegotiate the next year with whatever club will give the best deal.

That is the only way to answer what a player "deserves" - and it will be different for each player. 

You just undermined your argument.

They make enough money to live on, plus they have money left over to send to people in other countries.

The reason they have enough is that their food, lodging, travel, clothes are paid for.  People making minimum wage don't get that.

You folks should be ashamed comparing privileged MILB players with hard-working minimum wage workers.

Mr.Kremer, good calls in this one.

From the NY Times on Marvin Miller (who IMO may be the most important sports figure in the last 50 years) following his death:

In July 1976, the union and management agreed on limitations to free agency: a player would need six years of major league service before he could seek a deal with another club. That accord seemed like a concession Mr. Miller did not need to make. But he concluded that limiting the stream of free agents would fuel the ball clubs’ bidding wars.

So it seems Marvin Miller who was always the smartest guy in the room would have agreed with you and made a better deal for the players.  As you point out it would certainly make for a fairer system on a pay for performance basis.  Also there would not be those albatross 7 and 10 year deals being made. 

"You folks should be ashamed comparing privileged MILB players with hard-working minimum wage workers"

"The reason they have enough is that their food, lodging, travel, clothes are paid for.  People making minimum wage don't get that"

Really?

Their clothes are paid for? They get pants and their jerseys ,hats, They have to pay for their own gloves, batting gloves, cleats,(sponsored high signing bonus guys get a lot of stuff free

Transportation? yes to games most cant even afford to have their cars there

Food? They pay club fees and some of this goes to the spreads

Lodging? rookie ball usually does but other levels it is not provided (some have host families but not all)

Many times 6 guys share a room with air beds in the living room?

This is what irritates me. People making comments when they really know little about what really goes on.

yes it is a great learning lesson, yes it is great to get the chance but please don't act like minor league players in the low rungs of baseball are pampered. That really irritates me. And again not one of them is saying to feel sorry for them.

.

fan, I thought I would hit him from the left, after I hit him from the right.

Here's one thing I REALLY don't get.  MiLB players get their salary - which everyone agrees is not very much (whether something should be done or not is not unanimous).  But why, out of that small salary, do they have to pay some back to the team for "club fees"?  That makes absolutely no sense.  Why not just pay them less or give them the advantage of clubhouse stuff for free?  I don't get that.

I may be completely wrong, but I will make a stab at what I believe is an educated guess. 

The MLB club pays the "salary" of the player. The Club dues are paid to the Affiliate to cover the club house expenses. So if the "salaries" were lowered by the cost of the club house dues. The MLB would have to shift that money to their affiliate.

Do these club house fees/dues exist in independent ball?

Bball.  

If you gave the players less, there is no guarantee that that difference would actually be seen by the players. The cubbies are all different - some go and buy the best quality food he can find on his budget; others go in and buy American cheese and white bread. The "tip" the clubbie gets somewhat reflects the "service" the clubbie delivers. So, the players are the check and balance making sure that value is received. (And tax implications may be involved.)

I cant wait to pass out questionnaires to my employees; the one's who love their job will be converted into unpaid interns.

I was always told by my parents that when you find a work you love, it's not work. I guess the mantra for some should be when you find a job you love, tell your boss, "no need to pay me much." (Or, "I quit, I'm gonna find a job I hate.)

As a parent whose son did make the decision to pass on one of those very high paying jobs to live the dream, it's for the pure love of the game. But, just because he has the absolute privilege of chasing the dream, doesn't mean he can be exploited (only in the sense he makes far below minimum wage) in violation of the law.

What a milb is "worth" is an interestng brain tease. But, in most low paying jobs, skill levels are low and pool of labor is abundant. Here the skill levels are high (and most fail to advance to the top of the pyramid) and the pool of labor is restricted. (Yes, the scouts fail to find some talent and poorly evaluate some talent; but there is a huge difference between the good even great HS/college player and the pro quality player. So those two groups are not even remotely fungible.) I don't think a business needs to pay anyone more than the law requires - the concept of "worth" over that is between two consenting parties.

Great post

BLD, the clubhouse personnel are normally not employees of MLB or the Major League team. They are employees of the Milb franchise, which is owned and operated completely separate from MLB and the MLB team with which they contract for players.

BTW, ownership of MILB teams is also highly lucrative and has become a major business for wealthy investors.

As JH pointed out, this is not a situation where capitalist principals are under attack or even questioned.  If that were the case, the issues and litigation would be similar to those involved with the $300,000,000 settlement just rejected in an employee lawsuit against Google, Apple, Intel and Adobe who are alleged to have agreed among each other not to poach employees.

http://www.macrumors.com/2014/...settlement-rejected/

MLB and its teams are protected by a very unique antitrust exemption which they appear to have used in colluding about MILB salaries and also the contract every MILB player signs which binds them to a team for up to 6 championship seasons. MLB and the teams have other possible defenses on salaries including arguments that the players are exempt from wage and hour laws.

But, for folks like Sultan and all his arguments, including the "privilege" of playing Milb being different than a minimum wage job, let them  talk to  Milb players who sustain  baseball related injuries which not only end their career, but which impact them physically in earning a living after baseball. 

Does the "privilege"  mean MILB players who have debilitating back, shoulder, knee and multiple other types of surgeries, along with the rising tide of concussions  should just gut it out on his own when any other employee in our Country would be protected by laws governing workers' compensation? Perhaps Sultan would like to argue such MILB players should be thankful for the "privilege," not be covered for work injury costs by their employer generating $9 billion in revenue per year,  so he, along with the taxpayers could  pick up those costs.

MLB treats MiLB players as "salaried" employees rather then "hourly."  So as long as they are able to continue treating them as "salaried", how to count hours doesn't matter, nor does the minimum wage rate.  Salaried employees are paid an agreed upon amount irrespective of the hours worked.

Whether someone can legally be treated as "salaried" instead of "hourly"  can be a technical and uncertain legal mess to plow through. 

Just the same, I think 5-7k of annual salary plus medical is very low for the effort involved for most players.

In the indy league son plays for they pay clubhouse fees just like in affiliated ball.

You pay those fees regardless if you are home or away.  

Son has never had any issue with any clubbie, these guys live for their tips, and they too move up in the system. If they dont do right by the players, they dont have a job. That was told to me by a clubbie a few years ago.

I did say not all teams are created equal.  I just know that in the two organizations son was with he was treated well.  Unfortunetly you dont know this until you get there. My opinion is that in some organizations, they just dont care because chances are that player in the lowest leagues will be gone within a short period of time. As long as that attitude persists so will lower wages.

Once again if a player is drafted or signed as a free agent they should ask a lot of questions so that they know.  Nothing should come as a surprise.

Not sure if I have mentioned this, but the latins take care of themselves. The guys with the big contracts make sure the young latin guys are taken care of, ex Jose Valverde, when he played, always covered the seasonal clubhouse fees for the latin players in GCL leagues.  Albert Pujols always made sure the young latin cardinals ate well and provided lunch quite a few days a week for the GCL guys as well as in spring.

As mentioned by JH many of these guys have families so they need to send home money, many of these young men become fathers at very early ages.  As I mentioned that is an entirely different discussion.

JH,

My point about traveling was someone mentioned the long hours the players travel and dont get paid for. My point was that I am sure that, being in the business when you travel you dont get paid extra, its just part of the job requirement.

luvbaseball,

There are 240 (correct me if I am wrong) milb teams, and if you do give a raise it has to be across the board not just a few teams. 5K x 240 is what?

Well this is how I look at it, for the low minimum wage son has been paid over the years, he has seen almost every state in the US, met many different people along the way, and made life long friends.  He could have been drafted out of HS, we discussed the money factor, we told him that we would never under any circumstance support him in the off season unless he took classes and he went to school and got drafted, got nice money to finish college and put his money away for when he really will need it. He learned to live off of his poverty salary just like everyone else has been able to.

Yes he gets stuff for free, but IMO he earned that because of his talent.

You can watch a team and almost know who will move forward and who will not.

There is a difference between a early sign and a later sign. There is a difference when you get wood in your hands and when you pitch against wood, its not really hard to figure out.  

I think that PG really explained all of it pretty well.

Once again if a player is 4 years in the system, not been hurt, not protected and still at low A, chances are he is NEVER going to make it any higher. At that time maybe its time to consider other alternatives.  

Again I do believe that the salaries should be raised but 

I would worry more about the people your son has on his team rather than the lack of a few dollars in his pocket.

JMO

College parent.

Simply denominating compensation as salary is not a deciding factor (otherwise employers would give everyone salaries). Management (I am loosely defining) is exempt from minimum wage. There is no argument that these players are not management. So calling the compensation something (salary) to avoid the reach of the federal law is not going to fly.

Injuries and the non bonus baby MiLB player can end a career even if the injury is a temporary setback. Not enough room on the teams to stockpile players working through the complications associated with being back at peak performance.

Leave a body part on the field for the game and the team, and you are tossed aside even after being a post season all star and team mvp. Not a pretty business, but I still love watching my son play.

Google interns make $6,000 per mo....plus perks.... What!!!!

With millions wanting to work at Google their employees show be thrilled to follow their dream job and work for less than mim wage... Because one day they could be getting a million dollar contract

Heck there are hundreds of HS grads and college Sr that could do the job...

Really?

why is only baseball players and nuns that takes the vow of poverty ?

They aren't. Athletic trainers, strength and conditioning coaches, and other athletics personnel also make pennies. Turn the news on and see what is going on with NFL cheerleaders...

everybody thinks that professional athletics equals big money, but it rarely does..

In 2013 there is not a single franchise that has more than 7 US based affiliates and all but a few have 6.  I have assumed this thread is solely based on US based teams.

But even all in at 6 teams per franchise.  That is 150 players x $5k = $750k per franchise.    For those with 7 it is $875k.

Your point regarding when it is time to give it up is also a very good one.  If you are 25 and riding the bus in low A ball it probably isn't going to happen. 

I am getting soft in my old age.  I just find it extremely problematic when I see people exploited (my word for it).  When the reserve clause was overturned in MLB in the 70's it was going to be the death of the game financially.  Didn't happen, and the money I am talking about here is peanuts in comparison. 

Owners crying poverty in MLB, NFL and NBA is laughable IMO.  But I guess that is part of what makes billionaires the billionaires in the first place.     

No illusions it is changing any time soon and as you say it is what it is.

IMO it is unnecessary, wrong and pretty easy to fix at least a decent chunk of it. 

There are lots of things in the world I have this opinion of but sadly many of them won't change in my or perhaps any lifetime.  This one just happened to have a thread going!  

Keep in mind that this issue isn't about increasing pay for ALL or even most of the MiLB players.   It's about aligning the business of baseball with all other businesses to the prevailing minimum wage (or minimum remuneration to meet basic living expenses) that those people on the bottom rung are not being exploited.

Our sons are not being exploited, they have options. If your son was offered an 8 dollar an hour job, would he take it?  I will bet if he was a college senior drafted, even with a small bonus he would sign in a heartbeat.

Who is being exploited are the ones who really have no other options. 

But I think most people don't care, they feel a resentment towards them because baseball is an AMERICAN tradition and americans are not getting the jobs.

Hate to say this, but most of these players are far more superior in talent than most born here in the US. It just takes them a bit longer to develop.

That happens to bonus players as well.  Its very difficult to get back on the field after you are injured, even for MLB players, but they have a union to protect them from being released for injury.

A lot of the lower level affiliated clubs and the independent clubs have host families that provide room and board to the players. I'm guessing the dollar value of this plus the player's salary gets him pretty close to minimum wage for the hours spent on the field. 

Why should players rely on charity of strangers when they are working for a multi billion dollar industry..... And tax payers....through wic and food stamp programs.   ( I don't know of any families on foodstamps but they would be eligible based on income...I do know of players preg wives and babies getting wic)

Wic is a state program and income has nothing to do with it.

Son lived with a family his first season in the Penn league, 50 a week.

I do know that many teams hook up the players while in low A.

njbb, hope all is well including those grandbabies!!!!

It is a state program and income based .. For instance eligible unit of 2 has income limit of $2,246 mo.

grandbabies are good... Number 5 due end of Sept.