Remind me how much college players make?  And high school players.

MotherJones.com, named after a radical Socialist.

Mother Jones focuses heavily on the evils of capitalism and the alleged desirability of government control over business. On a global level, the magazine reserves its harshest condemnations for the U.S. and Israel, and is staunchly supportive of Marxist regimes like Fidel Castro's Cuba.

Interesting info on Mother Jones. What's your source on that?

 

And is USA today also a Marxist publication in your view?

 

And are you not aware that MILB players are professionals (IOW their play is how they earn their living) and that HS and college students are amateurs?

 

(not saying I know enough about MILB compensation to have an opinion on what if anything needs to be done about it.)

This is a topic discussed here often.  I feel Minor League Players should make more money.

 

That said, I will never feel sorry for any minor league player.  What would they choose given the opportunity to play professional baseball with a chance to become a multi millionaire or given the opportunity to start at the bottom at a fast food chain with a even slighter chance at reaching the top.

 

Once again I wish they would make more money, but they all have that choice of doing something different. Millions of young men are hoping for that opportunity to "play" the "game". Lets see, I can make twice as much money flipping burgers or I can "play" the "game" I "love" for less money and have a chance of making it real big.

 

Guess I don't know that much about other sports. How much do golfers, tennis players, Stock car drivers, D League Basketball players, taxi squad football players, or any other sport pay at the start up level? How much do actors and musicians get paid when they start out? It's not always easy to start out making a lot of money at the things you love doing.

 

I have a lot of respect for anyone trying hard in the minor leagues.  It sure isn't easy, but they are doing exactly what they want to do. Don't pity them, go out to a game and cheer for them. I feel much more sorry for those that want it so badly, but never get that opportunity.

Kind of off topic, but what is independent league lifestyle like? Is the pay and lifestyle very similar to the affiliated minor league levels? Or does it vary league to league? I watched at TV show on the Pecos League and they only make $50 a week or something like that. Gotta imagine that's way way tougher than affiliated minor leagues.

First I definitely agree with PG.  absolutely believe that milb, they should get paid more money, but then just like any "job" they have the ability to turn it down and do something else.

 

My son plays Independent ball in the Atlantic league. I do beleive the monthly salary is about 2000 a month for first year players, but may vary per team. Many of these players are older and former ML players that dont really need the money b ut want back in the game.  One guy on sons team has made about 12M in his career. These guys are pretty good to the players and treat them often to lunch, dinners, etc.   He gets transportation (2 cars to share)  and a house to live in, shared by 5 other players.  He pays clubby dues and gets 2 meals a day when at home and on the road gets 25 per diem. The team also holds camps, players have the choice to work 4 hours per camp, and son has done every camp, earning nice extra cash. I have too say that they do make a huge effort to treat them just like they were in affiliated ball.

 

A few players from the frontier league have had their contracts purchased and on sons team. They are very happy and grateful and doing quite well.

 

Please do not take this the wrong way, but if my son was getting paid 50 dollars a week to play in the ANY league, I would strongly encourage him to consider other options.  

 

The problem I have with the conclusion that they can leave if not liking the pay is this: they have to leave their profession; not just change employers.

 

I don't think the players are asking for anything more than minimum wage. (I think they earn roughly half that in the low levels.)

The big issue I see is inflation has increased 400% since 1976. Yet minor league baseball salaries have only increased 75%. Therefore, the minor league players aren't making even close to what players made over thirty-five years ago. Salaries should be adjusted for inflation.

Players do get raises from their organization each season.
Their healthcare is paid for.
While I agree 100% that they should make more its amazing how they manage to keep an affiliate afloat.

Most teams have 5-6 affiliates. Thats a lot of ball players to move around.

I think the minor league system currently in place needs a significant overhauling…one that would impact salaries but would also address many other issues pertaining to inefficient aspects of player procurement and development. There are many, many issues involved with the current system that need addressing, with player salaries falling under that umbrella.

 

With that being said, players should be paid what the market dictates they're worth. What that specific figure is…I don't know.

 

Almost for sure that figure is less than it is now, probably much less.

The problem is, there is no market. There is one choice, take it or leave it I'm not a union guy, but when there is basically one organization, ie monopoly, something should be done. The question is, who's going to stand up and do it. Sounds like this lawsuit is the start.

Ever hear of the Screen Actors Guild?   

 

From Wikipedia:

 

"The Guild was founded in 1933 in an effort to eliminate exploitation of actors in Hollywood who were being forced into oppressive multi-year contracts with the major movie studios that did not include restrictions on work hours or minimum rest periods, and often had clauses that automatically renewed at the studios' discretion. These contracts were notorious for allowing the studios to dictate the public and private lives of the performers who signed them, and most did not have provisions to allow the performer to end the deal."

 

Kinda sounds familiar?

 

Exactly.  A labor "market" requires labor mobility -- the right to sell one's labor to the highest bidder.  But there is no -- or hardly any -- labor mobility in minor league ball -- even less than there is in major league ball. 

The way to create a market is eliminate the draft.

I actually agree with this. The draft is an abomination and rewards stupidity and incompetence.

I agree, but only to the extent by which it is currently constructed.  I feel the draft can work just fine and be much more fair and equitable with a major overhaul.  

It might also help if they had independent collective bargaining rights.

Agreed.

They do provide a cobra insurance after player is released for 18 months for less than 100.00 a month. It is blue cross/blue shield PPO. It helps while player is starting a career in something besides baseball.

 

It is tough especially on the kids who got little to no bonus. I don't feel sorry for them, and yes they wanted to do it, but those kids in the minors fill up seats for the affilates and a lot of money is made. I think they should make more money.1200 a month for a 7 days a week more than 8 hours with no overtime is wrong.

 

 

Truman : sending you a PM,lost your email

There is a problem with players being free to sign with anyone.  That would help those that are now early round draft picks.  Those are not the majority of minor leaguers.  So what do you pay a back up catcher at the lowest level of minor league ball.  Would he get more from one team than he would get from another team?

 

The current system tells the player what the club feels his value is.  And they will waste no time getting rid of a player that they feel has no value to the organization.

 

I'm all for players getting more money.  You would think those high paid MLB players that went through the same thing would care.  However, they did go through the same thing before making it to the Big Leagues.  It has always amazed me to see a multi millionaire first 5 pick, living and being teammates with someone that is making very little money.  But once again, the club has a way of telling players what they are worth.  Those players in that situation have to prove they are worth more.

 

Bottom line, if young men wouldn't be lined up for the opportunity, maybe the pay scale would go up.  But there are many that would play for no money at all.  I doubt if there are very many willing to work in fast food restaurants for no money.

 

In the one article there is some inaccuracies.  They are comparing salaries for 5 months with salaries for 12 months.  

 

Anyway, I would like to see beginning minor league players receive a fair salary. But HS coaching is also a profession and many make $3,000 or less a year. Add those hours up and how fair is that?  Yet many want that job.

So you're saying or at least implying, that there are no circumstances outside of professional sports where young people with ambitions of succeeding in a highly competitive field would, in conflict with their own financial best interest, willingly work for either low pay, or no pay, or at least less than legal minimum wage. This is not true. I have seen exactly the opposite happen in two industries. I'm sure it happens in others as well.  It's easy to say, fine, these are jobs that anybody would be lucky to have, so it doesn't matter that they pay less than minimum wage.  I get that. But some people said the  same thing about low wages for picking turnips in the 1930's in California's Central Valley.  "Oh, well, they're lucky to have that job. If they don't like the pay somebody else will take it."  Tom Joad had a different take on that.

The question puzzles me as it seems so disconnected. 

 

The issue is about a "minimum" wage that's at a level for someone to support themselves without having to depend on the charity of others.   Some player's families have the means to support a player; many do not, and in any case the player should be able to be self sufficient and you can't do that when being paid at a level so far below what considered poverty level.

 

The back up catcher would get at least the "minimum wage" no matter which team he was on.

 

A minimum value should be in place for any player.  If the player is not worth that minimum, then yes. . ..they should not take on such a player or get rid of that player. Anyone who works for an employer should be held to a minimum wage.  Minor League players, who are typically adults, are employees of their baseball team and should be entitled to that.

The fact that they made it through is irrelevant to the issue and doesn't address those who didn't.

 

I do find it an amazing situation for player millionaire living with someone making below poverty level wage.  And it wonderful to see that some of these guys show empathy and compassion for the financial hardship their teammates are in and and will occasionally help them out (e.g. buy meals, casually pay for this or that).  But who really enjoys taking charity because they don't have a choice, other than to quit their job.  

 

Since you emphasize "worth", I would say that any playing worth playing on any of these teams should be worth a MINIMUM wage.

 

Hmmmm???   So, I'm to understand you position is that a "minimum wage" is unjustifiable for any employee who doesn't have that "worth" to an employer?   And of course it's only the employer who gets to establish that "worth", and exploit the employee without any moral regard for the well being of the employee. If the employee doesn't like it, the employer can always find some other willing soul to exploit.  Have I got that right?   If not, please explain.

   

Yeah, I noted that too.  And I didn't get the idea that they were suggesting that a player should get a salary over 5 months equivalent to 12 months of minimum wages.  So, let's be clear on that.

 

This is what's called a logical fallacy as are a couple previous such statements you've made.  And as an example, it's completely irrelevant.

 

From what I've observed, baseball can easily afford to have in place a salary structure with a minimum salary equivalent to a minimum wage for the time played during the season.  And I see it as a moral issue.

 

Two killer issues for MiLB players are owners and MLBPA being on the same side:

 

1)  3 guys for every job.  At the low minors there are readily available replacements to take the job.  So the opportunity is value and allows wages to be driven down without significant risk to the game on the field being so bad no one will attend.

 

2)  No representation - There is no one specifically looking to manage and improve the deal they have.  MLBPA cannot negotiate for them, beyond the draft and how that works and they sold the kids down the river 5-7 years ago.

 

They sold the bonus's for those kids down the river for a better deal for themselves a few years back because Scot Boras was driving up the signing bonus for all kinds of players.  So baseball wanted "structure" and got it and the MLB guys got some things back at the expense of future members.  

 

They sold the bonus's for those kids down the river for a better deal for themselves a few years back because Scot Boras was driving up the signing bonus for all kinds of players.  So baseball wanted "structure" and got it and the MLB guys got some things back at the expense of future members.

 

This ^.

 

Kind of off topic, but what is independent league lifestyle like? Is the pay and lifestyle very similar to the affiliated minor league levels? Or does it vary league to league? I watched at TV show on the Pecos League and they only make $50 a week or something like that. Gotta imagine that's way way tougher than affiliated minor leagues.

 

Not independent league but my son plays Pro ball in Europe.  He gets transportation to and from Europe, shares an apartment with another" Ïmport Player", gets meals on game days and road trips and gets 350 euros a month.  He's not making any money but he's able to live just fine on what he gets.  His apartment is within 100 yards of the field and public transportation in Europe is great.  We supplement him if he's going on a trip like an off weekend in Portugal or a trip to Oktoberfest in Munich, but what a life for a 22 year old who just graduated from a D1 school this spring and thought his last game was when they lost in the NCAA regionals.

 

Oh one negative is that since they play on a converted soccer field the right center fence is over 650 feet away, lol.

Come on, they're not even working.  They're just playing a sport.

 

Free travel, food, uniforms, training, healthcare.  Women. Fans. All the sunflower seeds you can eat.

 

MLB should just call this a camp, and make the players pay to join.

 

/hey, it's a slow news day

 

 

Oh one negative is that since they play on a converted soccer field the right center fence is over 650 feet away, 

 

You just created a flashback. Several years ago I was watching a baseball game at Northeastern. Center field was 460 in the back corner of the end zone. A kid from UNCW skied a 458 foot fly out. He came back to the dugout muttering. The next at bat he turned on one and hit it off a house behind the sports complex. I recollect him saying something to the effect of, "Catch that bleep'n one!"

c-o-c --- I am not sure why my post is off topic.  It is the reason the pay structure is what it is, which is the subject of this thread...or at least that is what I thought. 

 

When Boras starting getting $20MM+ deals for draft picks he was starting to cost real money.  Owners can't control themselves and players saw it as a threat to the rank & file if hundreds of millions started getting poured into prospects instead of the membership.  Both sides agreed it had to stop and that is exactly what they did.

 

Professional Baseball is not a game.  It is a business.  First and always...money. 

 

I cannot argue the points made above.

 

Again I do feel that they should raise the level minimum, not opposed to that at all. However due to the unique circumstances in which this business is run, I don't see how anyone here can determine a $$ amount as fair or unfair (IMO).

 

I wonder (and I am sure), if the teams do an analysis of their entire season cost for each of their affiliate teams and award a dollar amount  onhow much the actual cost would be per player, including transportation costs, health care, health insurance, uniforms, personnel, equipment, etc. And seeds of course.  I am sure that we all would be surprised of the breakdown.

 

I wonder how many here that are complaining have had players in affiliated ball?  How would you know what it costs to run a milb affiliate on a daily, monthly or seasonal basis? How would you know that your son couldn't find a way to make it work?

 

Most do.

 

Here's the deal.  The entire business model is built on developing players for the ML level and based on talent.  The more talented you are, the more you are worth, the larger the bonus, the faster you will move up the ladder. 

I do believe that most american born players are educated upon considering to sign, what it entails and how the player might have to "suffer" a year or two to play professional ball.  Its easy to understand why latin players are very much preferred these days. They seem to get by very nicely on what is considered the poverty level and even send their money home to help out families.  In other words, they require less comforts and toys than our children do.

Again, each and every player should understand the expectations and the opportunity to  make a lot of money in this game or to just chalk it up to a life experience like no other.

My advice to give to your children if you feel the salary is unacceptable, go to college, improve your game if things do not work out you have a nice plan B.

 

 

How much a team gives out in bonus or FA has nothing to do with what players make in milb. 

The draft was changed so that there would be more parity across the board and equality, so that a small market team could compete against very rich teams. 

 

In a sense that is true.  However, if you have a kid that grew up his whole life wanting to be a fireman, would it be fair to pay him $3.00 an hour to be a fireman because it is what he's always wanted to do for a living?  Besides, firemen just sit around the firehouse 90% of the time waiting for the alarm to go off, right?

 

I know it's not the same exact thing, but in principle it is.  Just because someone chooses a certain profession that they have a passion about doesn't mean that they should not get paid a reasonable amount to work in that profession.

 

I'm somewhat conflicted about this because I am a capitalist at heart - even though I live paycheck to paycheck, not having much money.  And I don't really know what the answer is.  However, I think that MiLB is enough of a monopoly that some kind of intervention should be made.  Maybe not coming up with a minimum wage, per se.  But some kind of market economy within the system.  

 

People have said that MiLB is not unionized and is not effected by the CBA of MLB.  But that is not entirely true.  I believe once a player is signed, he falls under the MLB rules in terms of being able to leave his team/become a free agent.  Is the player not bound for something like 4-5 years before he can become a free agent and sign somewhere else?  Unless of course the MLB team wants to trade him or cut him, right?  Maybe I'm wrong, but the MLB and MiLB are intertwined.  MiLB may not have their own union, but the players are bound under MLB rules to some extent.

 

Maybe I'm way off base and someone can correct me if I'm totally wrong.

Oh, my wouldn't the Yankees and Dodger love that?

The problem with the argument is that when there are jobs people want to do, it makes it easy to take advantage of them. I'm sure if you got rid of songwriting and mechanical royalties, there would still be music, but all the money would be in the hands of a very few, taking advantage of those that produce the product out of love for what it is they are doing. It's why there are specific laws governing internships. Interns aren't allowed to take the position and place of an actual employee. This is to make sure they aren't taken advantage of. Without such laws, I guarantee you that Law firms, hospitals, etc. would be taking advantage of people in the profession. The maekt does indeed have a way of telling people what their value is, but it also has a floor so that labor isn't taken advantage of. There is no floor in baseball, the one business that is legally exempt from all the checks on the free market system.

When a player is drafted by MLB. You either sign a milb contract or you sign a ML contract (the player becomes a part of the 40 man roster). 40 man roster pay starts around 30-40K per season.  The player gets to go to spring training where he has an opportunity to earn about 1000K a week cash.   The team determines where the player will begin his service time.  Each contract has different years under a teams control, 6 for milb or 4 for ML until offered a contract over the minimum.At this point the player is making 500K per season. Free agency is totally different. I think I got the above right for years of service.

Milb has a players union and the player pays dues, but it is NOT the ML players union.

 

By the way, there are  AAA guys making lots of money as milb free agents. Not too many, as the experience has given way to youth.

 

The whole idea is that you have to reach that level.  If a milb player is let go he becomes a FA, but most teams will not give a lower level player as a FA.  Lower level is rookie league or low A level.

 

I think that teams try to do the best they can for their lower level players.  Host families are available as well as the team covering housing costs for complex league levels.  In other words, it really isn't as bad as many of you think it is, it is a more or less an apprenticeship.

As far as the fireman analogy, I know people who are VOLUNTEER fireman, they don't get paid a dime to serve. They do what they do for free because its what they love doing.

And it seems to be working for those small market teams.  But, looking at how the system is now being used these last two years, it seems like it's less advantageous for the draftees than is used to be.

True, my father was a volunteer fireman.  But those are mostly in small town situations where they don't have the budget to staff a full force.  In the bigger towns and cities, you don't have volunteers.

 

TPM, you know a lot more about the whole process than me for sure.  You have lived through most of it.  I'm just saying that, in general, you get drafted by a team or sign as a FA, you take what they give you and it isn't a lot.  If you choose not to take it and go try out for a different team, they are basically going to give you the same thing, if they take you at all.  It's not like you will make more money going somewhere else.  I'm not sure if this is the industry colluding to pay low wages or if it is them paying what the market demands.  Probably more of the latter.  As someone pointed out (PG maybe), there is an over abundance of willing job applicants in this industry.  If you don't want what they are willing to pay, there is someone else standing in the wings to take it.  Just not sure how much is related to there only being one organization offering this job, or the fact about the labor pool being abundant.  

 

Guess we'll find out as the original law suit unfolds.

Sorry Luv, your post and another earlier in the thread with the off topic line were just posts I copied but I guess I didn't do it right because they didn't say quote.  The off topic line was from the fifth quote down.

A drafted player does not have to sign. A free agent can negotiate with all 30 teams.
And yes there are many who are waitingin the wings for the job and that is why it is what it is.

Our society has made a political choice: employers, absent specific circumstances, must pay a minimum wage.

 

Period, end of story.

 

Employers occasionally try to circumvent the law (recent intern wages cases are examples). (And, in those recent intern cases, there were many potential "interns" lined up to take the place of those who dared to say no to working for free/below minimum wage.) 

 

I am looking forward to baseball trying to squeeze itself into the "seasonal" exception. Can't wait to hear them explain how a "seasonal" business can drug test its employees months after the season ends, make players head to mini-camps, instructional ball (no wages, just room, some board, and  a per diem), etc., and still be seasonal.

 

The amount we're talking about is not great: assume a team has six U.S. based minor league teams. Assume each team has 35 players (actually from full season A on, rosters are 25). Assume that AAA is paying more then minimum wage, and is therefore paying appropriate wages. But also assume that there are 35 more players in extended spring. Thus, there are roughly 210 players who need to be paid minimum wage. Assume that the players work 60 hours per week (bus rides, etc). That's 20 overtime hours. For ease of math assume $8/hr wage ($12/hr overtime). So, each week should bring in ($8 x 40) + ($12 x $20)= $560/wk. Assume a season of work lasts from March 1 until September 2 (roughly 27 weeks). A season's pay is 27 x $560= $15120. The player is currently receiving roughly $6600. So, roughly $8500 shortfall. $8500 x 210 players = $1,785,000 per team. Thirty teams x $1,785,000 = $53,550,000. About .6% of MLB revenue.

 

A drop in the bucket. And, it's not as if the players will take the money and burn or bury it in the backyard. The players will plow that money right into the communities where they are based.

 

We, as a society, decided that a minimum wage was needed - in most jobs - not just the crappy ones no one wants.

11 of the 30 teams lose money.  Are you going to fork over their $1.7 mil each?  How big is your bucket?  Maybe Mother Jones can pay it.

If only.  There are quite a few folks in congress who would happily vote to repeal the minimum wage laws.

They "lose" money - according to them; yet franchises are worth hundreds of millions of dollars. Accountants can do wonders.

 

I'm also not going to cut you a check for social security - but that has nothing to do with whether you are legally entitled to that money.

 

I was unaware of the "you must make a profit" exception to the minimum wage laws.

I'd like to know what is included in the revenue numbers for this list.  I seriously doubt the Yankees are losing $9 million a year.  Those numbers must not include TV or merchandising money.  There is no way the Yankees are worth $2.5 billion when they are losing money every year.  And the Dodgers losing almost $81 million a year and they are still worth $2 billion???  I have a feeling if you add in all money (not just operational money) these numbers will look a lot different.

 

 

This really doesn't address the issue.  If you think it does, please explain.

 

 Hmmmm???  OK, but I wonder just how many equally qualified for the job are waiting in the wings?    

 

So, looking beyond the obvious, there's more to it than including those who don't have the skills or talent the industry looks for. huh?

 

 

If my accounting firm along with other accounting firms could create an "accounting graduate draft" where accounting graduates had to work 4 seasons for us before they are eligible to change firms, we'd could save a lot of money with really low pay and we wouldn't have to pay them to get training during the off season However accountants don't have a draft and accounting firms can't force them to sign 4 year  conrtacts,,  so accounting firms have to be competitive with pay starting the first day, 

 

MLB doesn't have to worry about MiLB players leaving for other teams, so they can pay whatever they want as the player has very little leverage. Do away with the draft and standard minor contract tying players to teams and the pay will increase substantially.  Yes there are lots of players willing to take the place of any MiLB player for free or less, however most don't have the skill to be competitive at that level.,

 

.. 

One thing I do have to say not all teams are created equal.
So before you sign on the dotted line do your homework...just like you did when your son accepted an offer to play at college.

I know the one thing I see written a lot is there are many waiting to take their places? Really? I mean give the players that are there some credit they were chosen because someone scouted them and believed they had skills.

 

Not to be insulting to anyone but the general public really has no idea about minor league baseball.

Fan, you don't think there are thousands of HS and college players that didn't get drafted that would be happy to sign to have the chance to make it to the MLB?  There are A LOT of very good ball players out there willing to take a chance that didn't get drafted. I'm not talking about general population people. I'm talking about good HS players and college seniors that didn't get drafted for some reason.

There are around 1280 players drafted. There are around 13,500 college seniors. Maybe not all of them want to play baseball for a living, but I'm sure there is a pretty big pool of players who would be willing to take that chance.

I am going with fanofgame on this one.   Most people have no clue about milb.

TPM, you obviously know a lot more about the MiLB game than most. But don't you think that the pool of college seniors could, and would if they had the opportunity, fill a good number of those late draft rounds?  You've said yourself that there will always be guys willing to fill in if some guys decided to not to sign because of the money.

Stop it bballman you're giving me flashbacks of 1995 and the "Replacement Players". Gosh, that was awful.  

I am not a scout but I will give my opinion.
A college senior unless one of the top in the country would be signing for very little money. Chances are he would be one of the oldest on his team.
Where do you think at what level he would begin his career?

       
       

Haha. I loved that movie!!

       
       

Aren't ALL the lower round draft choices signed for very little money?  And it doesn't have to be college seniors. I was just using that group as an example of a big pool of players that are not part of the "general population" fan was talking about. Add in the HS seniors and college juniors to the mix and I think if everyone in the last 10+ rounds of bye draft decided not to sign, there would be enough guys to fill those spots. Would every one of those guys be as good as the ones that were actually drafted?  Probably not. But there also may be some guys in there that wind up turning out better than the guys who were originally selected and didn't sign.

I'm just agreeing with the point that you and PG and others have made that there are plenty of guys waiting in the wings to take the spots of guys if they decide not to sign because they don't like the money. And I'm saying that they aren't just kids out of the "general population". A lot of them are pretty good ball players.

I am not really understanding your point.
People complaining about milb pay. What does that have to do with college seniors?
You didnt answer my question. Where do you think those seniors will be placed?

First of all, my point is that maybe MiLB players are not paid that much because of the over abundance of players that are willing to take their spot (ie a big labor force).

As far as where they'd be placed - I suppose they'd be placed at the same level as anyone else in that draft spot would be placed. I'm guessing rookie ball or low A. I really don't know the system well enough to say for sure. Not sure why they would be placed anywhere other than where their counterpart would have been placed if they'd signed.

As I said in a previous post, I'm sort of conflicted about the whole thing. Free market vs some kind of legislated or unionized minimum wage scenario. So, in weighing the options I sort of thought out loud that maybe wages are so low because of the large pool of players willing to take that spot, therefore they really are getting paid what the market will allow. Hope that makes more sense to you.

Truman ,
Free agents can sign with any team that is interested and usually that is the one paying them the bigger bonus and where they will be placed. Free agents include those not drafted as well as milb players released or out of contract.
Tell me you dont get that?
My entire point is that poverty in milb isnt as bad as it sounds.

I think you are right. The philosophy is if you dont want the job then we will give it to someone else. That has definetly created a win win situation for mlb.

Skip to the 3:13 mark.  Fallon nails it.

 

bballman,

 

Yes there are good players that go undrafted. My son went undrafted after doing well in a top conference. He signed a s a free agent.

 

I just don't think it is as easy as many think to just plug in kids. I think your underestimating some of the talent in the lower levels.

 

It is hard in the minor leagues, it takes more than most know even when there is a lot of talent.

 

I am not trying to be disrespectful to you but many parents think players are good, and they may be good, but they may not be good enough.

I understand what you're saying fanofgame. There's no doubt every player selected in the draft has tremendous talent. But do you really think there is THAT much difference in talent between say pick #s 1200-1280 and 1281-1360?  That's not meant to be a disrespectful, rhetorical question. Do you think the pool would be that much watered down by those next 80 guys playing?

No probably not .The lower rounds are mainly fillers. Some make it but its tough.

Even if others can fill those spots, they too would deserve more money as well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

To those saying that minor leaguers deserve more money… How much do they deserve, and why do they deserve that amount?

 

 

 

Just a SWAG, because now that this is what I do for a living (financial analysis,) I will bet my annual salary that not a single MLB corporation loses money. This isn't profit, this is operating income, which means that this is before any tax benefits. I'd be willing to bet that those franchises which "lost money" during 2013 actually did a slate of capital projects that allowed them to show an IOI loss to improve their financial standing in upcoming years as well as maximize tax advantages.

 

A corporation doesn't lose money unless it is happening year over year.

Yes, I get it.  BUT. . . .the issue is not about bonuses, particularly because this is about those who don't get signing bonuses or not enough of a signing bonus to meet basic living expenses and must depend on charity from family or other outside sources while they work. 

 

 . . . . not for those who manage to get enough of a bonus to offset the dismal base salary or for those who have family wealthy enough to sustain them.

I think "deserve" is the wrong term when addressing the issues over minimum wage.

 

Do workers at McDonalds or Walmart "deserve" their minimum wage when they're first hired?   Minimum wage is to keep employers from exploiting their workers to the extent that workers can not afford their basic living needs.

 

I'm a bit surprised by the lack of empathy and compassion the young men struggling financially in minor league that seems to emanate from so many here.

 

+1

 

Not feeling bad for a person because they chose what they got into, and then making a statement that they deserve to get paid more, is a contradiction and makes no sense. 

 

I agree with you that "deserve" is the wrong term, but it's the term being used. My question is, for the folks here in this discussion, what is an appropriate wage scale, in your opinion?

 

 

And if you hire people under the age of 19, they'd be bound to you for 5 years. AND, they'll still be bound to your firm's policies after that 4 or 5 years unless another accounting firm wants them, in which case they can be drafted once again…eliminating their ability to leverage their skills while continuing to abide by a non-negotiable wage scale with the new firm. AND, if they do get drafted and the new firm doesn't like them as much as initially expected, they can be returned to you (and the continued non-negotiable wage scale) without any consultation or notice.

 

Sign me up!

 

In all of the years son was in milb I never heard of anyone that he knew who struggled financially while in milb.Not even about the latins struggling.  You certainly need to learn how to budget your spending but if you have been to college you already know that from mom and dad. All in all, I only look upon it as a learning experience.
Can you give examples of anyone you know who struggled?

BTW the idea is not to spend too much time in milb so you do not have to struggle.  After  4 years if you have not been picked up on the 40 man roster or had a nice bonus to keep you going most players have moved on or been released.

 

 

Sorry, TPM…going to disagree with you on this one. These two posts contradict each other.

 

First off, yes, I know several players that struggle financially in the minor leagues, especially players from Latin America.

 

Second off, the very concept you outlined - that a time limit is rudimentary to the professional baseball process - implies a financial burden that players struggle to overcome outside of that small period of time. The fact that full-time employment fundamentally prohibits employees from sustaining basic living needs for an extended period of time is an issue that is directly tied to the current wage structure of Minor League Baseball.

 

When two groups that are exempt from anti-trust laws collectively bargain a revenue sharing model that doesn't include a demographic of people directly impacted by the results of the agreement, such distorted wages occur. 

 

Beyond the stipulations of the CBA and the process of a potential MiLB unionization, the theoretical question is:

 

What would be the appropriate salary for a Minor League player?

 

I believe this question goes beyond federally regulated minimum wage, and goes beyond tangible profits generated directly by each minor league affiliate. A wide-scale study combining the cost of a farm system, combined with the resulting average success of a prospect at the Major League level, would probably be the only way to properly value a Minor League player. Even then, as profit margins change nearly daily at the Major League level, it'd be tough to pin down an appropriate figure. 

 

 

I agree an appropriate figure would be hard to come by.
What struggling have you seen tell me? I remember hearing about the struggling when son was in high A. The kids were out getting drunk every night! 
The latins struggle is because they send money back home but that is a whole other issue and discussion for another day.
Anyone in milb after 4-5 years struggling needs to move on.
Sorry but I dont have the empathy that others do.  The odds will never be in a milb players favor.

I am willing to bet as a first year scout you get paid not enough for the hours you put in. 
Do you get paid the extra hours when you have to fly or drive distance?

Definition of deserve: to do something worthy of reward or punishment, merit

I believe the players deserve more than they are getting. Im not saying I feel sorry for their choice. And those that get bonuses have it easier. I am not a player I am an observer. But when many have to pay rent, play clubbie dues, buy equipment. Guys with big bonuses get a lot of stuff free.Its hard to make it.

 

Minimum wage would be a good start,

I will just agree to disagree with those that think they shouldnt.  I get that guys choose it and many love it but many do quit or retire.

To say you have never heard of anyone struggling or complaining is kind of a wide brush. I have heard of many who struggle financially.

I agree with Truman .

And also those that say basically put up with it or quit you choose it ? I just disagree.

I also disagree when people say they just dont love it enough if they dont like the way the pay structure is.

 

 

I agree it is much easier for those with bonuses. 
The bonus does not guarantee the player will make it.  But it does place a value on how the team views  you amongst your peers and willing to invest in your development.
I feel badly for the latins as I feel they are exploited.
I do not feel badly for the later pick who gets a small bonus.  Its his choice to understand and to sign or not sign.

I agree it is their choice but I think the current system takes advantage of the dream of these young men.

 

 

I agree with an earlier comment  made as why Latin's are easier to deal with as they are happy to be there as the alternative is poverty.

 

The American players have educations to fall back on.

 

Nobody asked you to feel sorry for them. That comment is repeated over and over. Just because a group of people want change doesn't mean they want you to feel sorry for them.

 

 

Since most MLB have 5 or 6 affiliates they might have to ante up a bit to keep them.  After all having 75 pitchers in your organization has got to be better than 30 if you only had 3 teams.

I don't think the amount of money involved would be large by MLB standards.  Assume there are 100 players at A ball on down in each organization, to bump up pay by say an average of $5,000 per player is $500K per year.  Hardly a bankruptcy expense.

 

 

Agree $500,000 is not a bankruptcy expense.  Perhaps each team could cut off an affiliate or two, that should break them back to even.  Then there are a lot less players in "minor league poverty". 

How do you come up with those figures?

4 teams (25 per team) of players at A or below = 100 players.

$5,000 X 100 = $500k

 

AA and AAA levels probably have less troubles in this area but if you want to throw AA in then a organization with 6 affiliates would be covering 5 teams or $625k. 

So players just joining and not as experienced should get as much as those that are?

Yes there is always that.  The need for arms will argue against that happening. Old maxim: Have to throw at least 10 against the wall to get 1 or 2 to stick.

 

50 - 60 years ago it was not uncommon for teams to carry 9-10 or more affiliates and teams like the Yanks, Cards and Dodgers got up to 17 or 19 some seasons. 

The higher you go the more expenses you incurr.

 

By that logic there should be no signing bonuses.  After all what have they done to earn it since they have zero experience in pro ball. 

 

This is a labor issue and my point was to show it is absolutely unnecessary financially for these players to be hosed the way they are.  A few more crumbs off the table and they can eat better and have a slightly better living arrangement.  No one gets rich.

 

How it gets split is a detail to the point.  The money is there and if anyone was looking out for these guys they'd get it and probably a lot more.  It is pretty easy to abuse 3,000 individuals that are living a crabs in the bucket life chasing a dream especially when there are another 10,000 standing behind them praying for the chance.

 

I'm not going to divulge players by name. Many Latin American players send money home. Several MiLB players have families they need to support here. I don't really know how or why it's justified to have a wage scale that almost entirely prohibits these individuals from supporting their families.

 

Saying that if you're in the minors for 4-5 years, you need to move on is an opinion. It has nothing to do with players' salaries.

 

 

 

I get paid fine, and I do get reimbursed for my expenses. What's the connection between my job and the job of a minor league baseball player?

 

You find the players that people here have no empathy for. OH! 

OK lets give minor league players minimum wage.  Heck, lets double that.  I am all for it! Do they deserve it, sure, why not?

 

What I don't understand is how eliminating the draft would change or solve this issue.  Seems the very best prospects would get even more money having 30 clubs bidding for their service.  Definitely the agents would love that.  What do you suppose the 30th round pick is worth on the open market. All 30 clubs passed on him at least 29 times. The large market teams would love getting rid of the draft.

 

There are players selected earlier than you might expect because they are college seniors with no leverage. Would they be worth more money without the draft? Seems without the draft, the rich would just get richer.  Doubt it would help solve anything for the lower end guys.

 

I do think players in the minors should be paid better.  But for now there is reality to consider. It is what it is!  The player has a choice if he is drafted or someone wants to sign him as a free agent.  If someone offers you an opportunity, you either take it or you don't. This has nothing to do with working in an accounting firm.  I could shovel dirt all day at $25 an hour and make a decent living or I could be below the poverty line and play baseball. I could sit behind a desk starting out at $60,000 or go play professional baseball. It's my choice if given the opportunity, I would pick baseball. If I really loved flipping burgers for some reason, I might pick that over a high paying job. Bottom line... It is my choice!

 

Why do college grads attend MLB Tryouts?  Spend there own money traveling to Tryouts hoping they can hook up with one of those poverty level jobs?  Why do grads from the highest academic colleges enter into professional baseball when they could earn $80-$100K starting out doing something else?

 

If someone had a business that required 10,000 employees, knowing most of them will never end up helping your business profit a dime.  9,000 of those employees will simply be replaced by others and all will be an expense... What would you do? Give everyone a raise?

 

I look at minor league baseball similar to an extended tryout.  The MLB clubs are looking for MLB players.  It's like going to a MLB try out, and after awhile they keep some around for an extended look.  In this case they have seen the players and signed some for an extended look.  What if minor league baseball had zero salaries?  Maybe they just house you, feed you, and take care of the basic needs.  The players they want the most get big bonus, others are still trying out.  Because somebody decided playing in the Rookie League is a job, it needs to be handled like an accounting firm? The majority of those playing their first year of professional baseball don't look at it as a job.  They are hoping to make it a job and have a career in baseball.  In many ways I look at it as further advanced education.  And we all know how expensive education can be.

 

Lastly... How do we count hours in order to pay a fair wage to baseball players?  Is it 8 hours a day.  Is it 12 hours a day?  Is it 24 hours a day?

PG,
+1,2,3 and 4.

There is no answer to the question "what is a MiLB player worth." 

 

But I would love to see something that resembles more of a true marketplace that the current system allows, given that MLB has an anti-trust exemption, and the MLB players have exclusive rights to bargain for the pay of MiLB players. 

 

That ain't a recipe for a market. 

 

So, I would like to see no draft, but a cap on signing bonuses for each team, based on where the team is in the draft order. 

 

Also, no collective bargaining contract. Let each player negotiate for the terms. A big bonus might involve a six year commitment, and also get a good monthly salary. Some players (the equivalent of today's undrafted) might sign for a one year commitment, no bonus and low or no monthly pay, just to play and prove himself. Then renegotiate the next year with whatever club will give the best deal.

 

That is the only way to answer what a player "deserves" - and it will be different for each player. 

 

 

You just undermined your argument.

They make enough money to live on, plus they have money left over to send to people in other countries.

 

The reason they have enough is that their food, lodging, travel, clothes are paid for.  People making minimum wage don't get that.

 

You folks should be ashamed comparing privileged MILB players with hard-working minimum wage workers.

Mr.Kremer, good calls in this one.

 

From the NY Times on Marvin Miller (who IMO may be the most important sports figure in the last 50 years) following his death:

 

In July 1976, the union and management agreed on limitations to free agency: a player would need six years of major league service before he could seek a deal with another club. That accord seemed like a concession Mr. Miller did not need to make. But he concluded that limiting the stream of free agents would fuel the ball clubs’ bidding wars.

 

So it seems Marvin Miller who was always the smartest guy in the room would have agreed with you and made a better deal for the players.  As you point out it would certainly make for a fairer system on a pay for performance basis.  Also there would not be those albatross 7 and 10 year deals being made. 

 

 

 

 

"You folks should be ashamed comparing privileged MILB players with hard-working minimum wage workers"

"The reason they have enough is that their food, lodging, travel, clothes are paid for.  People making minimum wage don't get that"

 

Really?

 

Their clothes are paid for? They get pants and their jerseys ,hats, They have to pay for their own gloves, batting gloves, cleats,(sponsored high signing bonus guys get a lot of stuff free

Transportation? yes to games most cant even afford to have their cars there

Food? They pay club fees and some of this goes to the spreads

Lodging? rookie ball usually does but other levels it is not provided (some have host families but not all)

Many times 6 guys share a room with air beds in the living room?

 

 

This is what irritates me. People making comments when they really know little about what really goes on.

 

yes it is a great learning lesson, yes it is great to get the chance but please don't act like minor league players in the low rungs of baseball are pampered. That really irritates me. And again not one of them is saying to feel sorry for them.

 

 

 

 

.

fan, I thought I would hit him from the left, after I hit him from the right.

       
       


Quit trolling. There's no difference between sending money home for family and taking care of family in the United States. No one should be ashamed of rational discussion about wages.

I'm bowing out of this one. Contradictions in beliefs + thinking that minor league baseball isn't a job are concepts that are far beyond the scope of discussion I wish to have here. Some really good discussion, though. I appreciate this thread.

Here's one thing I REALLY don't get.  MiLB players get their salary - which everyone agrees is not very much (whether something should be done or not is not unanimous).  But why, out of that small salary, do they have to pay some back to the team for "club fees"?  That makes absolutely no sense.  Why not just pay them less or give them the advantage of clubhouse stuff for free?  I don't get that.

I may be completely wrong, but I will make a stab at what I believe is an educated guess. 

The MLB club pays the "salary" of the player. The Club dues are paid to the Affiliate to cover the club house expenses. So if the "salaries" were lowered by the cost of the club house dues. The MLB would have to shift that money to their affiliate.

Do these club house fees/dues exist in independent ball?