No Hitter Etiquette?

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Originally posted by Coach_May:
I have never put on a bunt to break up a no no.

Because you understand more about "the game" inside the game.

you can all worry about etiquette--will play to win

So, will you steal third in the last inning, when you're up 10-0?

so---why woould qI do that---that has no rlation to this discussion

You gotta score runs. You never know.

Which unwritten rules do we follow?

Which unwritten rules do we ignore?

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"There are the traditionalists who believe in the game being played as gentleman (as it should) and then there are the newer breed who say win at all costs. It depends on the coaching too, old school vs new."

When the game of baseball was in its infancy were there 'old schoolers'? 'New schoolers'? I would assume that the aim back then was to win, plainly and simply. No one was looking to preserve a no hitter during the course of the game.

How many years passed before there was a no hitter? When did the tradition start regarding the preservation of a no hitter? After five no hitters had been recorded? After twenty? After fifty?

I'm with the crowd now that argues for winning using all available tools, strategies, and weapons. Am I 'new school'? I would have had the same attitude back in the mid 1800's. Would I have been 'old school' then?

Beat the other team. That's what it is all about for me. How you go about accomplishing that is open for discussion, but not trying is not.

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He said he'd always heard that players should earn their way on base that late in a no-hitter or perfect game.

Putting down a bunt that is good enough to get a hit sounds like "earning" it to me!

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Does the import of the particular game matter? 7th game of World Series change the discussion? Unwritten rules any different then?

Case in point. Very good.

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you can all worry about etiquette--will play to win

TRhit

Can you all believe it.. TR and I actually agree on something!

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Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
I have never put on a bunt to break up a no no.

Because you understand more about "the game" inside the game.

......TPM. There are those that understand "the game within the game". I only know Coach May through his posts here on the HSBBWeb, but it doesn't surprise me a bit that he leans more on the traditional side and the longtime "unwritten rules". As I said earlier, Scioscia is Old School too, and would never have bunted to break up a No No...but the circumstances changed in the prior inning and Scioscia played the Eye for an Eye game, JMO. Admittedly, the bunt surprised me, but I was excited as I stood from my chair yelling at the TV..."that's right, take that! Shove it right down Guillen's throat!" Afterwards, I felt bad for Verlander, but let's face it, his teammate brought it on. That's the biggest reason why I started this thread, and yes, our feelings are divided. Talk to a pitcher, and the majority will think the bunt is bush, man up and earn your way on with a legitimate hit...however, talk to a position player, and the majority of them will say we're trying to win a ball game, and bunting is part of the game! Fun stuff......

Not sure about the "bushiness" of a bunt. The boy will typically throw up and in when a hitter squares to bunt. Against Verlander type velo. I think I'd rather take my chances taking a swing.

I know Aybars was a drag bunt. But your still kinda hangin it out over the plate to execute.

tpm and coach---this was bstill a close gaME AND I THINK THE HITTER WAS BUNTING TO GET ON BASE AND START A RALLY WHICH HE DID

Bunting IS part of the game....and ya can't score if your not on base. These guys are professionals paid enormous sums of money to do one thing...win. If the pitcher deserves a no-no then he has beaten his opponent, all aspects in that opponents' aresenal...that includes a bunt single....or sacrifice...or however it may be used. It is simply a tictic utilized to achieve a goal. If that pitchers good enough on that day....he takes care of the bunt too. IMHO...to be the best you have to win in all aspects, that means the opponent does everything in their power to beat you, if you win, you deserve the accolades. The other team laying down for you diminishes the effort.
J23

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
tpm and coach---this was bstill a close gaME AND I THINK THE HITTER WAS BUNTING TO GET ON BASE AND START A RALLY WHICH HE DID

These are opinions if you read Coach May's post he talks about intent, we really don't know the intent, but I will bet if it were a cleanly played game this would not have happened, if so, then teams would do it all of the time when the pitcher is on his way to a perfect game or a no no. I personally don't think the manager called for the bunt, he is too classy for that, he may have had the players take care of it themselves.

The game is absolutely about winning, but there is a lot more to it than that, it's about respect and that doesn't just go for the professional level.

In all the years I have seen my son play, I have never seen a bunt in that situation even if the pitcher is before 5 innings, HS, college or on teh pro level. And if it did happen, I would lose all respect for that manager or coach, regardless if it were son pitching or not.

You just don't do that in that situation, normally. The bottom line was Weaver wasn't gettin' one and they weren't letting Verlander have one either.

If that is what some here on the HS or travel level feel is right and would support that move in a game, and a manager or coach, my son would NEVER be on your team.

In all the years I have seen my son play, I have never seen a bunt in that situation even if the pitcher is before 5 innings, HS, college or on teh pro level. And if it did happen, I would lose all respect for that manager or coach, regardless if it were son pitching or not.
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The Angels are in a late season pennant race, the game was still easily in reach, this is not your normal situation. I am all for respecting the game, but the bottom line is that your team comes first. Like I said earlier, it depends on the situation at hand. Cannot bunt late in the game because opposing pitcher is flirting with a No No, is too general to apply to all situations.

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Originally posted by standballdad:
In all the years I have seen my son play, I have never seen a bunt in that situation even if the pitcher is before 5 innings, HS, college or on teh pro level. And if it did happen, I would lose all respect for that manager or coach, regardless if it were son pitching or not.
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The Angels are in a late season pennant race, the game was still easily in reach, this is not your normal situation. I am all for respecting the game, but the bottom line is that your team comes first. Like I said earlier, it depends on the situation at hand. Cannot bunt late in the game because opposing pitcher is flirting with a No No, is too general to apply to all situations.

If it was within reach why not hit? Why not lean into the pitch and get hit, walks don't count in no hitters.

I saw it as a stick in your face attempt and yes I am a HUGE Verlander fan.

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If it was within reach why not hit? Why not lean into the pitch and get hit, walks don't count in no hitters.

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If it was within reach why not hit? Why not lean into the pitch and get hit, walks don't count in no hitters.

Because they were not having any success trying to hit off him. You need base runners to score. A walk or HBP would have been just effective, but that requires the pitcher to make those mistakes (really not a good argument), and yes I am an Angels fan.

And because Ayabar has successfully bunted for a hit 53 times, including 8 times this season.

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You just don't do that in that situation, normally. The bottom line was Weaver wasn't gettin' one and they weren't letting Verlander have one either.

If I'm pitching, I don't want Albert Pujols to hit a home run off me either. And I'm going to do everything I can to prevent him from doing just that. Ayabar was doing everything in his power to prevent Verlander from having a no-hitter. That was a bunt. It's a perfectly legal play. NOT AGAINST THE RULES.

To me an "unwritten rule" is one that does not exist.

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Originally posted by standballdad:

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If it was within reach why not hit? Why not lean into the pitch and get hit, walks don't count in no hitters.

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If it was within reach why not hit? Why not lean into the pitch and get hit, walks don't count in no hitters.

Because they were not having any success trying to hit off him. You need base runners to score. A walk or HBP would have been just effective, but that requires the pitcher to make those mistakes (really not a good argument), and yes I am an Angels fan.

Ah come on someone could have leaned into the pitch, but who wants to get shelled with a 100MPH FB.
CHICKEN!

You don't bunt to break up a no no but you CAN bunt to start a rally during a no no. I'm all about respecting the other team and being a gentleman. I won't steal up 10 and I won't be as aggressive on the bases up 10. But if a drag bunt can start a rally to get me back in the game then you better believe I'm going to do it. I'll respect the other team but I'm going to respect the game first and that means I'm going to compete when it's close.

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Originally posted by bsbl247:
as I stood from my chair yelling at the TV..."that's right, take that!!"

This is funny.