I saw that Cornell study and it makes sense
I admit i am being cynical, but it sure sounds to me like Cornell is rationalizing. Isn’t it odd that no other school in the country (that I know of, anyhow) has offered up similar logic.
As for classes, many places seem to be planning for students not on campus to participate remotely.while their fellow students take those same classes in person. The technical term for this pedagogical strategy is “chaos.”
We just got more information from Notre Dame where my oldest daughter goes. They are doing the same model discussed by another poster (arrive early, no spring break, finish at Thanksgiving) but the latest is that they are sending COVID test to all students before they arrive on campus as opposed to testing them when they get there (which is what they did for the basketball and football players for my other daughter at Northwestern...and they did have some positives and had to isolate more kids because of socializing). The basketball player at NU has to work out with a face mask on. Interestingly Notre Dame women's basketball did NOT go back early for summer workouts.
This is definitely a case of building the plane while flying. FWIW I am in Mozambique for work right now and they had students learning from home for the past few months (much harder here with cuts in electricity and WiFi). On Monday the President announced a gradual return to school (seasons are flipped here so kids are in school) and 70% of parents are opting to keep their kids at home, primarily because so many students take public transportation which increase chances of infection exponentially.
I went to a smaller school and it was such an amazing experience. I sure hope this generation of kids can capture as much of that experience as possible.
We can only hope the schools get financially gutted this fall to force them out into the real world.
What an outrage! If Boston University PhD candidates want to get paid for their research or teaching in the fall they have to show up for work.
Amherst is next domino to fall. No fall sports but teams can practice.
Srs, First years, Sophs can come back. Essentially no Jrs.
classes larger than 35 will be on line.
Term ends at Thanksgiving like many others.
nescac is toast this fall. I’m sure it won’t be alone.
So Amherst Jrs are all online? I guess many were planning study abroad this fall (my daughter was) and so don't have housing on campus?
@Chico Escuela posted:So Amherst Jrs are all online? I guess many were planning study abroad this fall (my daughter was) and so don't have housing on campus?
I think the idea is that you can take your Gen Eds anywhere. So rather than giving fresh/sophs the option to take classes locally for a semester (part or full) they're saying we'll keep the future money coming in as the juniors and seniors are pretty much stuck unless they didn't plan to graduate on time.
I'm sure housing and study abroad has something to do with it but every school I've seen making alternate plans has revolved around the younger students.
Re: fall sports, the linked article is interesting. Morehouse College becomes first D1 or D2 school to cancel football for this fall. Meanwhile, Clemson now has 37 positive tests among players, but still plans to play. Obviously the schools' incentives and situations are different. The article has some good insights into the thought process at Morehouse. Unfortunately Clemson didn't grant interviews on this subject, so there's not much about them.
(Yes, it's the NY Times and I know some of you don't like that publication. The article is worth reading for the quotes from the Morehouse president. You don't have to agree or disagree with him to recognize he and other university presidents face some tough choices.)
Well, Chico, I, for one, think those head guys are way off base. Pick 'em.
@smokeminside posted:Well, Chico, I, for one, think those head guys are way off base. Pick 'em.
I'm not sure what you mean, smoke. A plague on both Morehouse's and Clemson's presidents?
Seems like, as Lincoln said, both of them may be--and one of them must be--wrong.
poorly executed sarcasm. Sorry, man.
The Ivy League will determine the fate of its fall sports by next Wednesday (July 8). If they run sports, they are leaning towards an Ivy only 7 game football season.
Had town hall meetings with both boys' college admins. The kids are gonna be so locked down they're both thinking about just staying home and doing their course work on line.
Very few courses at either school will meet in person. Major restrictions on going off campus, no guests from off-campus, no food delivery, grab n go meals. How are they gonna get their beer? Besides, who wants to drink alone?
Amherst is lowering its # of credits to graduate from 32 to 30 (each credit essentially meaning one course). Courses will be graded as usual.
RE: athletics Amherst is going through a phased opening. First phase: Teams can practice ten kids at a time with a coach or staff member to enforce social distancing. They can't share any equipment which means they can't even play catch. I guess if they're COVID free for two weeks they can then start sharing some equipment. If each school gets to spring relatively intact and all students back, they'll have a season but it will probably be just against conference foes, and highly condensed. No spring break, no overnight trips.
To borrow a phrase, baseball may be ending for a while not with a bang, but a whimper.
People need to start pressing schools on their plans for 21-22 school year with sports and classes. And press them now for answers and make a plan, because this will be the same situation we are in now. All potential recruits and students deserve to know who will provide opportunities and who won't.
@James G posted:People need to start pressing schools on their plans for 21-22 school year with sports and classes. And press them now for answers and make a plan, because this will be the same situation we are in now. All potential recruits and students deserve to know who will provide opportunities and who won't.
How can a school possibly know what their plans on for a year+ from now when no one can predict with any certainty where we'll stand 1 month from now?
If a school thinks there will be no covid19 a year from now, I have timeshares to sell. If anybody thinks it will magically disappear, I have more timeshares to sell. Vaccine or not, it will still be everywhere. And people will still choose not to get vaccinated. So they absolutely should be planning now for the next few years, possibly forever. I'm flabbergasted that people think if we buckle down and wear masks things will get back to normal. This is forever folks. Unless we collectively say we just have to live with it and do what we do, these modifications aren't going anywhere. Potential recruits should know what they are getting into. It's a buyer's market and use it.
@James G posted:If a school thinks there will be no covid19 a year from now, I have timeshares to sell. If anybody thinks it will magically disappear, I have more timeshares to sell. Vaccine or not, it will still be everywhere. And people will still choose not to get vaccinated. So they absolutely should be planning now for the next few years, possibly forever. I'm flabbergasted that people think if we buckle down and wear masks things will get back to normal. This is forever folks. Unless we collectively say we just have to live with it and do what we do, these modifications aren't going anywhere. Potential recruits should know what they are getting into. It's a buyer's market and use it.
I'm in NYC, trust me, I don't think it will magically disappear, but what would you expect a school, any school to tell a student, let alone a student athlete about 21/22? From an athletics standpoint, what does the conference do? What does the NCAA do?
For my 2022, should I avoid any school that doesn't have a detailed plan to deal with Covid in 2022? Heck, my 2020's school is changing their plan weekly at this point.
@smokeminside posted:Had town hall meetings with both boys' college admins. The kids are gonna be so locked down they're both thinking about just staying home and doing their course work on line.
Very few courses at either school will meet in person. Major restrictions on going off campus, no guests from off-campus, no food delivery, grab n go meals. How are they gonna get their beer? Besides, who wants to drink alone?
Amherst is lowering its # of credits to graduate from 32 to 30 (each credit essentially meaning one course). Courses will be graded as usual.
RE: athletics Amherst is going through a phased opening. First phase: Teams can practice ten kids at a time with a coach or staff member to enforce social distancing. They can't share any equipment which means they can't even play catch. I guess if they're COVID free for two weeks they can then start sharing some equipment. If each school gets to spring relatively intact and all students back, they'll have a season but it will probably be just against conference foes, and highly condensed. No spring break, no overnight trips.
To borrow a phrase, baseball may be ending for a while not with a bang, but a whimper.
Thanks for the info. You've heard more than I have from either of my kids' colleges.
Did the schools say how they plan to enforce restrictions on going off campus, ordering food delivery, etc.? I assume it's mostly on a honor system, unless you are careless enough to get caught by an Authority Figure? No food delivery surprises me, since a) that's not considered much of a risk and b) one reason schools offer for bringing students back is the economic impact on their towns. Plus, eating nothing but grab and go dining hall food straight through until Thanksgiving could be rough. Not even grocery deliveries so kids can stock snacks in their rooms?
Given the restrictions, any idea if baseball will schedule official fall workouts? And can those initial ten-person workouts be in the weight room?
Sorry to pepper you with questions. And I realize you may not know the answers (especially given that the schools don't have all the answers yet themselves).
In the case of my kid's school:
Students are allowed to leave campus to buy food. No visitors allowed on campus so dunno about delivery. They are adding food trucks to campus as well as fresh food vending machines in dorms.
Students must sign a contract that stipulates penalties including expulsion, and requires agreement to abide by rules such as when mask are worn, how many can be in rooms at a time, no drinking games, etc., and they agree to install a contract tracing app on their phone. Supposedly the app is not used for enforcement, but to trace who a person has been around should they test positive, but it's not hard to imagine there being an issue if the app shows that student was in a dorm room with 20 others. There is also a website for anonymous reporting of violators.
It sounds like baseball will be permitted to hold limited workouts. Not sure if it's official workouts, captains' or both. The athletic center is going to be open, so I'm guessing teams will workout there.
@nycdad yes I would avoid schools that can't tell me what they plan to do. I would be asking schools if they are going to cowar and do remote learning next year, or are they committing to in person learning and sports? If they can't or refuse to tell you, that's a turn off for me. Until there is some overreaching law that mandates what every college must do, these institutions are free to make up their plans based on guidance, and guidance only. Schools that can't commit or are afraid to would get crossed off the list for me. Would not want my kid looking to play going to a school where the leaders are looking for ways to not do things instead of looking for ways to do them.
@James G posted:@nycdad yes I would avoid schools that can't tell me what they plan to do. I would be asking schools if they are going to cowar and do remote learning next year, or are they committing to in person learning and sports? If they can't or refuse to tell you, that's a turn off for me. Until there is some overreaching law that mandates what every college must do, these institutions are free to make up their plans based on guidance, and guidance only. Schools that can't commit or are afraid to would get crossed off the list for me. Would not want my kid looking to play going to a school where the leaders are looking for ways to not do things instead of looking for ways to do them.
What you speak of is not the current reality, and my guess is you don't currently have a dog in the race so it's very easily to get on a soap box and say these things.
@James G posted:@nycdad yes I would avoid schools that can't tell me what they plan to do. I would be asking schools if they are going to cowar and do remote learning next year, or are they committing to in person learning and sports? If they can't or refuse to tell you, that's a turn off for me. Until there is some overreaching law that mandates what every college must do, these institutions are free to make up their plans based on guidance, and guidance only. Schools that can't commit or are afraid to would get crossed off the list for me. Would not want my kid looking to play going to a school where the leaders are looking for ways to not do things instead of looking for ways to do them.
I actually agree with you (and I do have a dog in the race - still waiting to hear). I'm dismayed that colleges are failing their mission by not offering to bring back all students, especially since some (many?) won't come anyway. However, this is not something that anyone could have possibly predicted six months ago, and the variety of responses for next fall is sufficiently different from school to school that I'm not even sure anyone could have predicted which school would do what. And, in fact, we don't know what the outcomes are going to be, although by next November we'll have a better idea.
Besides, we all know that kids choose colleges for baseball, not for what their pandemic policy might be.
@anotherparent posted:the variety of responses for next fall is sufficiently different from school to school that I'm not even sure anyone could have predicted which school would do what.
I work in higher ed. and have been following universities' announcements fairly closely. From what I have seen, there really are only two major categories of responses, at least when it comes to colleges with substantial residential populations: 1) some schools (e.g., most of the Cal State system) have announced they are going to offer remote learning only. And 2) others plan to have students back on campus with social distancing measures that look similar across the board. I guess you could say 2a -- schools that have invited all students back, and 2b -- schools that plan to have only a portion of students on campus at a time. And most colleges in category 2 appear to have hedged their plans by saying they may have to reevaluate later. Profs at UNC system schools have been told to be prepared to move to remote instruction-only, in case that becomes necessary. D1 schools are planning to play football this fall, but you don't have to look far at all to find statements that it may not be possible.
Here's a link to the most comprehensive source I know of collecting colleges' plans. IMO, they overstate things when they separate schools planning a "hybrid" approach from those planning in-person instruction, because most schools that will have students on campus in the fall seem to be planning to conduct some classes remotely (which is how I would define "hybrid"):
My son is an incoming freshman and the uncertainty about everything is pretty tough. Last week, the coach held a Zoom meeting with all the players to update them on what they’ll be doing as far as he can share at this point and to introduce the new players. Evidently, they will have a structured fall practice with all the rules of social distancing in place. He’s also given them a summer practice plan. Evidently, one hurdle is the fact that the gym equipment can’t be used because it’s indoors so there is some discussion of moving it outside. I appreciate the meeting if for no other reason than it gave my son something positive to look forward to and to feel he’s part of a team going forward.
The downside in all of this is just the nature of the college experience overall. As mentioned in previous posts, these kids who actually return to campus will be living in a lockdown mode. Others will take all their classes remotely online. Most who return to campus will be taking most if not all classes online but living in a single dorm room. Those who don’t want to return to campus under these conditions but also don’t want to pay full tuition for online courses are requesting a gap year or ability to get a deferment for a year. Originally, Dartmouth, for example, told the incoming class that they either had to show up or reapply next year. The students challenged this with a Change.Org petition and Dartmouth relented immediately. Evidently, many students are planning on taking advantage of this because Dartmouth quickly went to its Waitlist, something it hasn’t done in years. Other Ivy League schools are evidently doing the same. There is some undercurrent of unhappiness among the students because it appears that the schools are first taking the kids off the Waitlist who can pay full tuition. This week will be key in how all of this plays out because the Ivy League will give some direction about it’s plans and students will have to let the school know if they plan to attend or defer. This is anticipated to result in further use of the Waitlist which predictably will have a ripple effect among other schools.
All of this said, everything can change in an instant depending on what happens with the pandemic as the kids learned last spring. This experience is and will continue to be a roller coaster for parents and students alike.
Harvard's plan for returning in the fall:
Kicking the sophomores off is brutal, since they didn't get to finish their freshman year. If they dump anyone, it should be the juniors and first-semester seniors. Anyway, it's horrible for everyone. Public schools are no better, our system seems to have no coherent plan for the high schools, which start in a month.
Yale will have no sophomores in fall, no freshmen in spring:
What gets me is that some schools are not even asking students what they think or want, or whether they would come back if allowed. They are just making decisions based on no knowledge. What if half the students would choose not to come back to campus anyway? Then the others could be spaced adequately. What if 85% really want to come back, and won't pay if they can't? Kills me that the bigger schools are planning to bring students back (maybe because 3/4 are living off-campus), it's the smaller ones with more money that are doing these crazy contortions, keeping whole classes out.
Maybe my kids have had a different experience. They and their mom and I were surveyed several times about priorities. Now it looks like our two are gonna either stay home or live with teammates off campus but where they can work out together or live with HS buddies in similar straits, either in Thailand or Bali and learning on line from there.
Bali or Thailand? Smoke, would you consider adopting me?
My kids' schools had some websites and online meetings that invited various kinds of feedback from students and parents. There was a lot of "process"--I can't say how seriously the input was treated.
Here is one (dark) vision of the socially distanced college classroom. On the other hand, students care mainly about getting away from home and seeing their friends, not about how classes operate: https://www.insidehighered.com...ed-classroom-opinion
I am in on conversations about how the classroom will be set up. There is a lot of thought put into it. In the end, though, it will be the kids hanging out together that will spread it as is the case now.
Chico, when I told son we'd think about it, he came back with the fact that his summer internship money was going to help pay for room and board somewhere. Might as well be someplace he'd like to be, where he can actually hang out with his friends. Frankly from where I sit Bali is closer than Paris, he's already been to Europe. Plus the cost of living is cheaper. 
@smokeminside posted:Chico, when I told son we'd think about it, he came back with the fact that his summer internship money was going to help pay for room and board somewhere. Might as well be someplace he'd like to be, where he can actually hang out with his friends. Frankly from where I sit Bali is closer than Paris, he's already been to Europe. Plus the cost of living is cheaper.
France is closed to US citizens now for study or vacationing anyhow. Bali or Phuket sound a lot more interesting (much cheaper, too).
And here is the Centennial Conference announcement suspending fall sports: https://centennial.prestosport...al/2020-21/fall_2020
@Chico Escuela posted:France is closed to US citizens now for study or vacationing anyhow. Bali or Phuket sound a lot more interesting (much cheaper, too).
And here is the Centennial Conference announcement suspending fall sports: https://centennial.prestosport...al/2020-21/fall_2020
I would expect the Ivy League to follow suit
@Chico Escuela posted:I work in higher ed. and have been following universities' announcements fairly closely. From what I have seen, there really are only two major categories of responses, at least when it comes to colleges with substantial residential populations: 1) some schools (e.g., most of the Cal State system) have announced they are going to offer remote learning only. And 2) others plan to have students back on campus with social distancing measures that look similar across the board. I guess you could say 2a -- schools that have invited all students back, and 2b -- schools that plan to have only a portion of students on campus at a time. And most colleges in category 2 appear to have hedged their plans by saying they may have to reevaluate later. Profs at UNC system schools have been told to be prepared to move to remote instruction-only, in case that becomes necessary. D1 schools are planning to play football this fall, but you don't have to look far at all to find statements that it may not be possible.
Here's a link to the most comprehensive source I know of collecting colleges' plans. IMO, they overstate things when they separate schools planning a "hybrid" approach from those planning in-person instruction, because most schools that will have students on campus in the fall seem to be planning to conduct some classes remotely (which is how I would define "hybrid"):
Great resource. Thank you for sharing.
@adbono posted:I would expect the Ivy League to follow suit
Decision expected tomorrow.
@Chico Escuela posted:France is closed to US citizens now for study or vacationing anyhow. Bali or Phuket sound a lot more interesting (much cheaper, too).
And here is the Centennial Conference announcement suspending fall sports: https://centennial.prestosport...al/2020-21/fall_2020
this is stunning...I just goes to show rich smart people can be stupid to!! IVY is next no doubt, they can't allow anyone to appear more woke then they are.
Centennial was woke FIRST, though! They get the Cadillac Eldorado, and Ivy gets the steak knives, which is great because there are 8 knives.
Clearly, the Ivy League will do what the Centennial Conference is doing. All the articles I’ve seen report that they’re expected to announce that they’ll try to move football to the spring. I’m curious how all this is supposed to work in light of everything else anyway. At all these schools, on campus residence will be restricted to certain classes. So the incoming freshman may be on campus in the fall but not in the spring and vice versa for the seniors. How exactly are they supposed to have competitive sports at any of these schools? For example, if you’re a sophomore baseball player at a school that isn’t scheduled to have sophomores in residence for the spring semester are you supposed to find a place to live off campus or will there be special dorm space for the athletes whose class isn’t in residence in a semester when your team is supposed to be playing? It seems most likely that barring a vaccine, there really won’t be any sports in the Ivy League or at HA schools this year. If that proves to be true, how will that affect baseball at any of these schools since it will essentially mean that they won’t play for two consecutive seasons (considering the fact that last season was dramatically cut short)? On a separate note, how will this affect sports, particularly in the Ivy League, overall? In recent years, there has been discussion of taking legacies and athletes out of the equation in Ivy League admissions. Doubtful they’ll ever get rid of the former but will this disruption ultimately lead to the latter?