play9,
I spent a few hours last week talking with 3 assistant coaches in two of the best conferences in college baseball.
One is his school's recruiting coordinator. They are looking at pitchers who are 84-88. He didn't seem to care about max velocity. He focused on how they were in the 5th/6th inning. The coach has seen the kids personally and knows they can pitch and get outs.
His projection is the ones we knew about, in common, can pitch and be successful..and the ones we talked about were RHP's.
Play9,
There is room for LHP at D1 programs that throw 84-86 if they can pitch and get people out and they need rore than one pitch as well. As infielddad suggests there is room for RHP with that velocity as well.
Who told you that D1 programs don't develop players anymore?
My son attended a top D1 and two LHP's came the same year as he did, mid 80 guys, limited roles as relievers, they both sustained injuries in HS, one needed TJ surgery, the other blew out his knee.
Perhaps you haven't focused on a program that is right for you.
There is room for LHP at D1 programs that throw 84-86 if they can pitch and get people out and they need rore than one pitch as well. As infielddad suggests there is room for RHP with that velocity as well.
Who told you that D1 programs don't develop players anymore?
My son attended a top D1 and two LHP's came the same year as he did, mid 80 guys, limited roles as relievers, they both sustained injuries in HS, one needed TJ surgery, the other blew out his knee.
Perhaps you haven't focused on a program that is right for you.
Its not the velocity I'm hung up on, its the consistancy.
If Jr goes out and does something different every time, he isn't consistant and that is an issue.
Frankly right now, his inability to repeat is effective when every pitch moves a little differently at a slightly different speed, coming from the "wrong side". Show me a guy who throws every pitch at the same speed and I'll show you a toothless grin.
Longer term, it'll translate into lack of command and location, falling behind hitters and failure to pitch out of it. Will that happen in HS, College or beyond? Who knows.
I do NOT want every pitch he throws in HS ball to be gunned. I want him to get hitters out and not worry about speed, rather location, movement and command. Over the summer I'm starting to think I do so he can continue to develop consistancy.
Just me...
If Jr goes out and does something different every time, he isn't consistant and that is an issue.
Frankly right now, his inability to repeat is effective when every pitch moves a little differently at a slightly different speed, coming from the "wrong side". Show me a guy who throws every pitch at the same speed and I'll show you a toothless grin.
Longer term, it'll translate into lack of command and location, falling behind hitters and failure to pitch out of it. Will that happen in HS, College or beyond? Who knows.
I do NOT want every pitch he throws in HS ball to be gunned. I want him to get hitters out and not worry about speed, rather location, movement and command. Over the summer I'm starting to think I do so he can continue to develop consistancy.
Just me...
The other thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that there are pitchers and throwers.
Pitchers don't need as much velocity, because they pitch.
Throwers need everyting they can get, because they throw.
A LHP who pitches at 84 may be WAY more effective than a LHP who throws at 88.
Pitchers don't need as much velocity, because they pitch.
Throwers need everyting they can get, because they throw.
A LHP who pitches at 84 may be WAY more effective than a LHP who throws at 88.
What I am trying to say is put away the gun and work on learning how to pitch, not how fast can you throw. Follow proper conditioning, throwing program, work on solid mechanics and if it's there, it will come, sometimes creeps up on you without even noticing.
I can understand PG's reasoning, but this past spring I was at a game where the dad had the gun out on every pitch, even calling out to son what he was throwing, man, I said to myself, this is ridiculous.
Why the need to gun in the bullpen? Can someone explain?
JMoff, while a pitcher is developing velocity, inconsistancy is not uncommon for LHP or RHP. My son took a jump in college, and lost command for awhile, then settled down, then another jump in pro ball, lost command, then found his way. Don't stress about it, he's young, you'll see peaks and valleys, plenty of them, trust me on that.
I can understand PG's reasoning, but this past spring I was at a game where the dad had the gun out on every pitch, even calling out to son what he was throwing, man, I said to myself, this is ridiculous.
Why the need to gun in the bullpen? Can someone explain?
JMoff, while a pitcher is developing velocity, inconsistancy is not uncommon for LHP or RHP. My son took a jump in college, and lost command for awhile, then settled down, then another jump in pro ball, lost command, then found his way. Don't stress about it, he's young, you'll see peaks and valleys, plenty of them, trust me on that.
I can understand why people would have different opinions regarding radar guns. Calling out velocity to the son, will not make dad very popular at the games. In fact, it will make him look like a lunitic!
Is the gun mandatory in order for a young pitcher to be successful? Of course not!
Can the gun be a helpful tool for a young pitcher? Absolutely!
We have a gun with a big display board in our training facility. Pitchers can get instant feedback. Some of this feedback is very helpful. Over the many years we have had no arm injuries among the better pitchers who workout in that facility.
Some might say the gun only does one thing… show velocity and they are correct. However, knowing the velocity can be extremely helpful in many ways.
First of all, when the velocity reading is displayed for the pitcher it doesn’t take long before the pitcher learns that too much effort (over throwing) does not increase velocity. In some cases they learn that a little less effort and a more fluid delivery actually increases their velocity. That is a very good thing!
When the gun is always on, there is no reason to throw to the gun. You learn quickly how that works. You use the gun, it doesn’t use you!
The pitcher gets instant feedback on speed differential between fastball, change up and breaking balls. This allows for quicker adjustments.
The pitcher understands quickly when he has velocity drops or changes. He may not know for sure if it is because of fatigue, mechanical issues, or injury, but he knows something is not right. There is a fine line between perfection and a problem. The sooner a problem is discovered the better.
I have seen mechanical adjustments improve velocity by 2-4 mph instantly. When the pitcher sees that improvement with his own eyes, he starts paying close attention. Without the gun, the results might be the same, but it wouldn’t have the same impact on the kid pitching.
The pitcher can actually see improvement, both instantaneously and over time, and how it relates to mechanics and conditioning. Then that information helps confidence which is a pitchers best friend.
So though the gun only gives us velocity, those velocity readings give us lots of useful information. Information that can help a young pitcher, if you know what you’re looking for and how to use it.
On the other hand we also use radar guns for strict scouting purposes. This is different and has nothing to do with training or development. It is just compiling data for evaluation purposes. Dads that have radar guns should use it for other reasons, as stated above. Use it as a tool to help their son get better, rather than something to brag about. At the same time, I see nothing wrong with parents that want to know how hard their son is throwing. I believe that is very natural. I know some people frown on dads with a gun in the stands, but unless they become a nuisance, I don’t see anything wrong with that. I’ve met some who just enjoy the game more that way. They gun all the pitchers, not just their son.
Anyway, when it comes to baseball, I’m an information freak. I want to know everything possible. All information is important. Never is there too much information. Now what people do with, or how they look at, that information can differ. Some use it the wrong way, others use it as a tool to learn and improve. The gun is a tool that provides information.
Is it helpful or harmful? Depends on whose using it and why.
Is the gun mandatory in order for a young pitcher to be successful? Of course not!
Can the gun be a helpful tool for a young pitcher? Absolutely!
We have a gun with a big display board in our training facility. Pitchers can get instant feedback. Some of this feedback is very helpful. Over the many years we have had no arm injuries among the better pitchers who workout in that facility.
Some might say the gun only does one thing… show velocity and they are correct. However, knowing the velocity can be extremely helpful in many ways.
First of all, when the velocity reading is displayed for the pitcher it doesn’t take long before the pitcher learns that too much effort (over throwing) does not increase velocity. In some cases they learn that a little less effort and a more fluid delivery actually increases their velocity. That is a very good thing!
When the gun is always on, there is no reason to throw to the gun. You learn quickly how that works. You use the gun, it doesn’t use you!
The pitcher gets instant feedback on speed differential between fastball, change up and breaking balls. This allows for quicker adjustments.
The pitcher understands quickly when he has velocity drops or changes. He may not know for sure if it is because of fatigue, mechanical issues, or injury, but he knows something is not right. There is a fine line between perfection and a problem. The sooner a problem is discovered the better.
I have seen mechanical adjustments improve velocity by 2-4 mph instantly. When the pitcher sees that improvement with his own eyes, he starts paying close attention. Without the gun, the results might be the same, but it wouldn’t have the same impact on the kid pitching.
The pitcher can actually see improvement, both instantaneously and over time, and how it relates to mechanics and conditioning. Then that information helps confidence which is a pitchers best friend.
So though the gun only gives us velocity, those velocity readings give us lots of useful information. Information that can help a young pitcher, if you know what you’re looking for and how to use it.
On the other hand we also use radar guns for strict scouting purposes. This is different and has nothing to do with training or development. It is just compiling data for evaluation purposes. Dads that have radar guns should use it for other reasons, as stated above. Use it as a tool to help their son get better, rather than something to brag about. At the same time, I see nothing wrong with parents that want to know how hard their son is throwing. I believe that is very natural. I know some people frown on dads with a gun in the stands, but unless they become a nuisance, I don’t see anything wrong with that. I’ve met some who just enjoy the game more that way. They gun all the pitchers, not just their son.
Anyway, when it comes to baseball, I’m an information freak. I want to know everything possible. All information is important. Never is there too much information. Now what people do with, or how they look at, that information can differ. Some use it the wrong way, others use it as a tool to learn and improve. The gun is a tool that provides information.
Is it helpful or harmful? Depends on whose using it and why.
I don't get the preoccupation with the Radar gun to determine a pitchers success. A pitcher, right or left handed, that can throw pitches that break "into" all hitters (lefties and righties) can be very successful. Then, if he has good velocity, a nice change-up, he has the opportunity to be special. It's far easier to hit an off speed pitch breaking towards you, than away. Hence, the reason for specializing with lefties in the bigs against left-handed hitters.
A similar preoccupation among Scouts exists with position players, and it's size and to some extent "athleticism." I've seen alot of preferential treatment given and money spent on plus athletes who will never be able to hit consistently!!
A similar preoccupation among Scouts exists with position players, and it's size and to some extent "athleticism." I've seen alot of preferential treatment given and money spent on plus athletes who will never be able to hit consistently!!
PG,
Thank you for the explanation, I do beleive that you do things right, so there's no question there on your intentions on using it properly.
It's the obsessive folks that bug me and make their kids obsessive aobut it.
Remembering something that you have said, I agree, those that have velocity don't worry about it, those that don't, do.
Thank you for the explanation, I do beleive that you do things right, so there's no question there on your intentions on using it properly.
It's the obsessive folks that bug me and make their kids obsessive aobut it.
Remembering something that you have said, I agree, those that have velocity don't worry about it, those that don't, do.
TPM: Thanks.
If there is one thing 'the gun' has taught both jr and I is that he has to become consistant. For the record here, I don't own a gun and never will...
Interestingly enough, I've suggested to him countless times over the past few years that his legs lack flexibility. I recently signed him up at ProAdvantage Training in Gilbert, AZ (same group that runs that Tempe, AZ place where a lot of pro's go in the off season).
At his initial visit, they told him he lacked flexibility in his legs and they would focus on improving his ham string range of motion by 20 degrees and his hip range of motion by 50 degrees.
He came home all excited saying, "Dad they figured out all my problems!!!!! It's flexibility in my legs!!!! Who would've thought it?????"
See my previous comments about 16 year old's being stupid and never listening to mom and dad...
My dad didn't have enough money for all this. When I didn't listen, he simply whacked me upside the head and said, "Guess again". If Jr wasn't 6'3" 210' and me a feeble 6' 175, I might try that strategy more often...
Anyone else wonder if it isn't cheaper to pay for college rather than pay for all this training in hope of a scholarship?
If there is one thing 'the gun' has taught both jr and I is that he has to become consistant. For the record here, I don't own a gun and never will...
Interestingly enough, I've suggested to him countless times over the past few years that his legs lack flexibility. I recently signed him up at ProAdvantage Training in Gilbert, AZ (same group that runs that Tempe, AZ place where a lot of pro's go in the off season).
At his initial visit, they told him he lacked flexibility in his legs and they would focus on improving his ham string range of motion by 20 degrees and his hip range of motion by 50 degrees.
He came home all excited saying, "Dad they figured out all my problems!!!!! It's flexibility in my legs!!!! Who would've thought it?????"
See my previous comments about 16 year old's being stupid and never listening to mom and dad...
My dad didn't have enough money for all this. When I didn't listen, he simply whacked me upside the head and said, "Guess again". If Jr wasn't 6'3" 210' and me a feeble 6' 175, I might try that strategy more often...
Anyone else wonder if it isn't cheaper to pay for college rather than pay for all this training in hope of a scholarship?
quote:Anyone else wonder if it isn't cheaper to pay for college rather than pay for all this training in hope of a scholarship?
Jmoff,
My guess would be spending for all the training, fees, equipment in HS years would be equivalent to at least 1 - 2 years of college tuition depending if you are in state or out of state.
Good Luck this Spring and maybe see you around the diamond!
I would venture a guess that most baseball parents spend way more on preparing their kids for college ball than the scholarships given to their son. If you add up what it cost parents that have had their sons in travel ball since the age of 8 (not just the team fees but all the equipment, transportation and lodging, etc.) plus all the camps and training, I bet they'd get dizzy!
I just have to say LOL on this.
sandlotmom
Parents spend loads of money on their kids whether it be baseball, ballet, piano or whatever---I consider that part of being a parent--ask the parents of hockey players what they spend
Parents spend loads of money on their kids whether it be baseball, ballet, piano or whatever---I consider that part of being a parent--ask the parents of hockey players what they spend
Jr. golf and tennis careers can run six figures, annually.
quote:Originally posted by sandlotmom:
I would venture a guess that most baseball parents spend way more on preparing their kids for college ball than the scholarships given to their son. If you add up what it cost parents that have had their sons in travel ball since the age of 8 (not just the team fees but all the equipment, transportation and lodging, etc.) plus all the camps and training, I bet they'd get dizzy!
Its been a bargain! Compared to what a stay in drug rehab would be.
lol dswann! Hey if it was all about getting a scholley then it wouldnt be worth it even if you got that 25% at that major D1 or even if you got alot more. Its about way more than that. Its about the time you get to spend with your kids sharing something you both love and much much more.
Some spend thousands every year on boats , atvs , vacations , etc etc. Your going to spend it on something. You might has well spend it on something that your son loves and you can enjoy right along with him.
Some spend thousands every year on boats , atvs , vacations , etc etc. Your going to spend it on something. You might has well spend it on something that your son loves and you can enjoy right along with him.
Not to mention all the great people you meet along the way many of whom you will have relationships with years after the baseball ceases
TPM,
Some of the hardest throwers in baseball turn around to see what numbers they are posting. Virtually every pitcher cares about velocity.
Some of the hardest throwers in baseball turn around to see what numbers they are posting. Virtually every pitcher cares about velocity.
Any time a friend has said "Oh you have to go to a baseball game this weekend..." I say "No we GET to go to a baseball game this weekend!" Parents that are "investing" in a scholarship are missing the whole point.
LOL,
Honestly, you can't buy these memories. If Jr. walks into the den tomorrow and tells me he's done, I'd tell him, "Thanks, It's been a wonderful ride."
I'm an engineer by trade and can't help but "run the numbers" on all the money we spend getting ready for college, so I tend to lament in my posts.
I have a sign in my office that says, "I spent all my money on baseball & beer, the rest I just wasted". It's sincere. We all have vices and mine is spending it on what my kids love to do. Son is baseball, daughter is softball. As long as they have fun, I'll have fun with them and spend whatever it takes to make them better, so long as they have fun doing it and want the extra work.
I wouldn't even consider doing anything differently, but find it funny we talk about these kids as legends (on message boards like this), but have to deal with teenagers who 'point and grunt', sleep till noon unless interrupted, and can't organize their thoughts. Just last night we were talking about finals and my honors student said they aren't for a while. I told him, "look at a f****g calendar, they start next week!" after a brief argument, he rebuted with, "Oh".
Happy Christmas to all my fellow parents...
We're turning the planet over to these kids in a few years...
Honestly, you can't buy these memories. If Jr. walks into the den tomorrow and tells me he's done, I'd tell him, "Thanks, It's been a wonderful ride."
I'm an engineer by trade and can't help but "run the numbers" on all the money we spend getting ready for college, so I tend to lament in my posts.
I have a sign in my office that says, "I spent all my money on baseball & beer, the rest I just wasted". It's sincere. We all have vices and mine is spending it on what my kids love to do. Son is baseball, daughter is softball. As long as they have fun, I'll have fun with them and spend whatever it takes to make them better, so long as they have fun doing it and want the extra work.
I wouldn't even consider doing anything differently, but find it funny we talk about these kids as legends (on message boards like this), but have to deal with teenagers who 'point and grunt', sleep till noon unless interrupted, and can't organize their thoughts. Just last night we were talking about finals and my honors student said they aren't for a while. I told him, "look at a f****g calendar, they start next week!" after a brief argument, he rebuted with, "Oh".
Happy Christmas to all my fellow parents...
We're turning the planet over to these kids in a few years...
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
TPM,
Some of the hardest throwers in baseball turn around to see what numbers they are posting. Virtually every pitcher cares about velocity.
My comments were more referenced towards young players.
As soon as son finishes a game he wants to know what he was throwing, I would expect that, in early HS, he really didn't care, as long as he got kids out that was what mattered.
Thats probably because everyone at the game knew he was throwing hard! 
I agree that younger players shouldn't worry about it but how can you blame Jrs and Srs for wanting to track their velocity? Especially after they read on boards like these that without a certain velocity, colleges won't even look at them. They keep making adjustments and parents keep investing in lessons so they want to see if it's helping any. Do they have a shot? Should they even bother?
We'd like to think that getting batters out matters most but the reality is that it isn't always true. SidearmSon has told me he can't wait to play real ball this Spring. He's a gamer - loves the mental game of baseball and showcase ball focussed too heavily on velocity. He's itching to induce another ground ball for a double play so that the team gets to show their stuff.
We'd like to think that getting batters out matters most but the reality is that it isn't always true. SidearmSon has told me he can't wait to play real ball this Spring. He's a gamer - loves the mental game of baseball and showcase ball focussed too heavily on velocity. He's itching to induce another ground ball for a double play so that the team gets to show their stuff.
If you lift weights you want to know what your bench press it. If you run track you want to know what your mile time is. If you pitch you want to know what your velocity is. Every kid wants to know what they throw. Its only natural.
How do you measure your progress? How do you know if your long toss , core , weight training , throwing program is working if you dont measure to see where you were when you started? And then measure where you are at?
When your working on your mechanics and you make an adjustment its very helpful to see if those changes helped you gain some velo. Its also helpful to see how much difference in velo is your change from your fastball.
The fact is knowing how to pitch is very important for all pitchers. And the ability to with a certain measure of velocity is as well. Radar guns are not the problem. People who dont understand how to use them to assist you can be a problem.
How do you measure your progress? How do you know if your long toss , core , weight training , throwing program is working if you dont measure to see where you were when you started? And then measure where you are at?
When your working on your mechanics and you make an adjustment its very helpful to see if those changes helped you gain some velo. Its also helpful to see how much difference in velo is your change from your fastball.
The fact is knowing how to pitch is very important for all pitchers. And the ability to with a certain measure of velocity is as well. Radar guns are not the problem. People who dont understand how to use them to assist you can be a problem.
Hello. I have been utilizing this great website for over a year and am finally a member. It has definitely increased my knowledge in all areas of baseball--Thank you.
Read the following about Schaeffer Hall:
http://www.rockchalktalk.com/2...eball-2009-mlb-draft
Read the following about Schaeffer Hall:
http://www.rockchalktalk.com/2...eball-2009-mlb-draft
Welcome aboard 13LHPDAD! 
I gun my son 5-10 times in every practice, and in most games.
We measure, experiment, measure again. We also solve consistency issues from game to game.
The gun is your friend. I value my gun over most pitching advice.
We measure, experiment, measure again. We also solve consistency issues from game to game.
The gun is your friend. I value my gun over most pitching advice.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
What I am trying to say is put away the gun and work on learning how to pitch,
I can understand PG's reasoning, but this past spring I was at a game where the dad had the gun out on every pitch, even calling out to son what he was throwing, man, I said to myself, this is ridiculous.
Why the need to gun in the bullpen? Can someone explain?
Easy. If Johnny normally throws 88 and he's only throwing 83, then look for a mechanical problem and fix it. Maybe his stride, his arm motion, his leg kick, etc. If he's throwing 88, then he gets a confidence boost that his mechanics are good.
Once Johnny hits 88 I would drop the gun and say "you're good".