Stop calling me out on this, direct your comments to those others who have responded as well. Or can't you do that?
If you spoke to the family about it, then it was THEIR decision to say NO thank you, not for you to tell the coach, I don't care how blunt anyone claims to be.
If that's part of what went down, well then why would you tell half a story? You always getting on others for not giving the FACTS or whole story, though it's ok to do the same? What was the purpose of the original post, to let us know how much you beleive in honesty? Don't confuse honesty with something else.
I have said this before--I learn tremendously from this site and its participants--I learn we all have opinions but when I speak my piece I am not trying to convert you, I am telling you what I/we did for a player---The title of the thread was OFFERING INFORMATION---I have done that---to be continually taken to task for my thought gets boring---it truly does
Am I not able to advise a player that I think he is better at school B instead of School a and c becuase of whatever the reason I am aware of---NO I AM NOT A GOD but I am Darn Sure More than you with regard to what those players needs are---they have spent time with us and if we can assist them we will
From now on I will not offer any more information---I will just post links etc and terse responses--direct and to the point---
Am I not able to advise a player that I think he is better at school B instead of School a and c becuase of whatever the reason I am aware of---NO I AM NOT A GOD but I am Darn Sure More than you with regard to what those players needs are---they have spent time with us and if we can assist them we will
From now on I will not offer any more information---I will just post links etc and terse responses--direct and to the point---
TRhit...I enjoy most of your posts. You are wise in many ways and have had a tremendous amount of baseball experience. You are funny, eccentric and I can always count on you to make this message board interesting. BUT you were wrong to have said what you did about your Latino player without at least talking to the player and his family about the situation first. I would not have had as big of a problem if you had said that you gave an honest account of the players baseball abilities, answered all of the recruiter's questions, and after the call talked with the player and his family, who then asked you to call the coach back to tell him that THE PLAYER felt that he could not adjust to the situation/college and would not like to be considered for a baseball position there. I know you can't or won't admit it. But you may have done this player harm. We probably will never know.
Before you plan on not posting anymore just because someone calls you out on this particular issue, think about the many times that you have called other people out on various issues. Don't get mad. Just take it as a learning opportunity...an "AHA" or a "light bulb" moment if you will.
On a lighter note, this reminds me of a time back in 1957 during the Civil Rights movement when my grandmother, who was a maid for one of the richest white families in Columbia, Mississippi, got a call from her employer, Mrs. Rankin, telling my grandmother to let her know if the Civil Rights workers, who were in our town to protest the segregation laws preventing the right to vote for Black people, WERE BOTHERING US. The Fox protecting the Hens!!!!
You cannot make decisions like you did based on race. The player should have been the one to decide whether or not he wanted that opportunity. If my son's coaches had said that about him, he would never have gotten the opportunities he has had. My son has been the only Black on most of the teams that he has played on for most of his life. It was up to us, his parents, to prepare him to feel comfortable and be able to interact well with players of other races. I can't tell you how many times during summer and fall ball seasons my son was the only Black person on the team and therefore, one of the four players sharing a double bedroom at a hotel on the road. Because Brian McCann and my son hit it off well, Brian always wanted my son as one of the four in his room. Kids will adjust. It is us, as grown-ups, that seemingly have the problem.
Please don't get mad at me. I like you and I'm like you, almost. I try to tactfully call it as I see it.
In the world of baseball there is so much that screens you out that you don't want your race to be a negative factor. Because there is nothing in this world that you nor I, nor anyone, can do to change your race. Well, I take that back. Some of us do pass, but that's a topic for another day.
Before you plan on not posting anymore just because someone calls you out on this particular issue, think about the many times that you have called other people out on various issues. Don't get mad. Just take it as a learning opportunity...an "AHA" or a "light bulb" moment if you will.
On a lighter note, this reminds me of a time back in 1957 during the Civil Rights movement when my grandmother, who was a maid for one of the richest white families in Columbia, Mississippi, got a call from her employer, Mrs. Rankin, telling my grandmother to let her know if the Civil Rights workers, who were in our town to protest the segregation laws preventing the right to vote for Black people, WERE BOTHERING US. The Fox protecting the Hens!!!!
You cannot make decisions like you did based on race. The player should have been the one to decide whether or not he wanted that opportunity. If my son's coaches had said that about him, he would never have gotten the opportunities he has had. My son has been the only Black on most of the teams that he has played on for most of his life. It was up to us, his parents, to prepare him to feel comfortable and be able to interact well with players of other races. I can't tell you how many times during summer and fall ball seasons my son was the only Black person on the team and therefore, one of the four players sharing a double bedroom at a hotel on the road. Because Brian McCann and my son hit it off well, Brian always wanted my son as one of the four in his room. Kids will adjust. It is us, as grown-ups, that seemingly have the problem.
Please don't get mad at me. I like you and I'm like you, almost. I try to tactfully call it as I see it.
In the world of baseball there is so much that screens you out that you don't want your race to be a negative factor. Because there is nothing in this world that you nor I, nor anyone, can do to change your race. Well, I take that back. Some of us do pass, but that's a topic for another day.
IMHO the sole responsibility for all recommendations whether for employment or scholarships is to present the truth of any relationship three areas.
Length of time
position
whether they would be considered to bring back for position
In baseball a coach may make comment about position, skills level, of the 5 skills, with pitchers clocked time and records based upon factual data.
But a reference may not say anything derogatory about a prospect...to do so opens you up for lawsuit for defamation, slander and or preventing the individual from an opportunity.
The courts have upheld this principle time after time.
TRhit you think you helped your player but it sounds to me like you treated him like he was a pet...not a person.
JMO
Length of time
position
whether they would be considered to bring back for position
In baseball a coach may make comment about position, skills level, of the 5 skills, with pitchers clocked time and records based upon factual data.
But a reference may not say anything derogatory about a prospect...to do so opens you up for lawsuit for defamation, slander and or preventing the individual from an opportunity.
The courts have upheld this principle time after time.
TRhit you think you helped your player but it sounds to me like you treated him like he was a pet...not a person.
JMO
Catfish nice post. I would never claim to walk in your shoes, but we've been traveling with baseball teams for 12 or 13 years. I have never seen or heard of a problem, issue or comment about a coach, player or their families ethnicity. It's just been about baseball. That's what surprises me about this topic. Perhaps I'm naive.
We may be getting a just a TINY bit off topic here. However, it has always been my opinion that almost everyone in my generation and earlier has a bit of bigot in them. OK, my father in law doesn't have a bigoted bone in his body, and I met 1 person while I was in the service who lived his religious beliefs so wholeheartedly that he couldn't be bigoted, but they're exceptions to the rule. We are the products of our times and we can't help it. What is important is that we recognize when our actions are reflecting our biases and quickly correct our actions to do the right thing. That's almost as important as not passing our biases along to our children either intentionally or unintentionally.
catfish
I said none of you knew my relationship with the family of the player or with any of our players for that matter
Again all assume things without any knowledge---you read into things where you should not
Perhaps you need the lightbulb moment---wake up and read the facts not what you want to read into it
LL
I would say I treated him more like my son--
You people are very amazing with your thought process
I said none of you knew my relationship with the family of the player or with any of our players for that matter
Again all assume things without any knowledge---you read into things where you should not
Perhaps you need the lightbulb moment---wake up and read the facts not what you want to read into it
LL
I would say I treated him more like my son--
You people are very amazing with your thought process
TRHit - I guess I am willing to consider that there is more to this story and to give you some credit on this, instead of judging by all that we know so far. It doesn't sound like something I would do, but I am curious about a couple of things:
1) You stated that we don't know the relationship that you had with the family and the player. I agree with that. Are you asserting that your relationship with them allowed you in good conscience to bring up his ethnicity with the coach?
2) If the coach, instead of silence and then shutting down the conversation, had asserted that the player's ethnicity would be no problem for the school, would you have then discussed it with the family/player? If this is the case, I could see that you may have rooted out bigotry on the other end rather than displayed your own.
Just curious and trying to think outside the box of the other replies.
1) You stated that we don't know the relationship that you had with the family and the player. I agree with that. Are you asserting that your relationship with them allowed you in good conscience to bring up his ethnicity with the coach?
2) If the coach, instead of silence and then shutting down the conversation, had asserted that the player's ethnicity would be no problem for the school, would you have then discussed it with the family/player? If this is the case, I could see that you may have rooted out bigotry on the other end rather than displayed your own.
Just curious and trying to think outside the box of the other replies.
TRhit...You are right. I have no knowledge of your relationship with the family and player. I know that what you did and said was what you thought was the right thing to do. I am not questioning that. And Fanofgame, I would never, ever question or pass judgement on TRhit's character. I only "know" TRhit from this message board. It would not be wise for any of us to question anyone's character based solely on what we post. And as I thought about it more, TRhit could have known or had been told that this particular coach had questionable character and would have not been fair to a Latino. Who knows????
The point I want to make is that often times in our attempts to "protect" a player, we can actually harm them, especially when we base our decisions around race. We have to be very careful in this area.
I've "known" TRhit for more than six years now. He knows we would be lost without him.
The point I want to make is that often times in our attempts to "protect" a player, we can actually harm them, especially when we base our decisions around race. We have to be very careful in this area.
I've "known" TRhit for more than six years now. He knows we would be lost without him.
quote:Originally posted by Catfish:
TRhit...I enjoy most of your posts. You are wise in many ways and have had a tremendous amount of baseball experience. You are funny, eccentric and I can always count on you to make this message board interesting. BUT you were wrong to have said what you did about your Latino player without at least talking to the player and his family about the situation first. I would not have had as big of a problem if you had said that you gave an honest account of the players baseball abilities, answered all of the recruiter's questions, and after the call talked with the player and his family, who then asked you to call the coach back to tell him that THE PLAYER felt that he could not adjust to the situation/college and would not like to be considered for a baseball position there. I know you can't or won't admit it. But you may have done this player harm. We probably will never know.
Before you plan on not posting anymore just because someone calls you out on this particular issue, think about the many times that you have called other people out on various issues. Don't get mad. Just take it as a learning opportunity...an "AHA" or a "light bulb" moment if you will.
On a lighter note, this reminds me of a time back in 1957 during the Civil Rights movement when my grandmother, who was a maid for one of the richest white families in Columbia, Mississippi, got a call from her employer, Mrs. Rankin, telling my grandmother to let her know if the Civil Rights workers, who were in our town to protest the segregation laws preventing the right to vote for Black people, WERE BOTHERING US. The Fox protecting the Hens!!!!
You cannot make decisions like you did based on race. The player should have been the one to decide whether or not he wanted that opportunity. If my son's coaches had said that about him, he would never have gotten the opportunities he has had. My son has been the only Black on most of the teams that he has played on for most of his life. It was up to us, his parents, to prepare him to feel comfortable and be able to interact well with players of other races. I can't tell you how many times during summer and fall ball seasons my son was the only Black person on the team and therefore, one of the four players sharing a double bedroom at a hotel on the road. Because Brian McCann and my son hit it off well, Brian always wanted my son as one of the four in his room. Kids will adjust. It is us, as grown-ups, that seemingly have the problem.
Please don't get mad at me. I like you and I'm like you, almost. I try to tactfully call it as I see it.
In the world of baseball there is so much that screens you out that you don't want your race to be a negative factor. Because there is nothing in this world that you nor I, nor anyone, can do to change your race. Well, I take that back. Some of us do pass, but that's a topic for another day.
That was an unbelievably well-written post Catfish. I am sure people can find things to be bitter about if they look for them. Have never detected any bittness in what you have to say and that is admirable.
Back to this topic. Can't believe how it has blown up like this. I was only thinking about baseball information when it started and some of these other things would not have occurred to me.
quote:CD posted: I was only thinking about baseball information when it started and some of these other things would not have occurred to me
Negative "anti" recruiting is a very real fact of life in the competitive scout team landscape.
quote:Originally posted by Catfish:
You cannot make decisions like you did based on race. The player should have been the one to decide whether or not he wanted that opportunity. If my son's coaches had said that about him, he would never have gotten the opportunities he has had. My son has been the only Black on most of the teams that he has played on for most of his life. It was up to us, his parents, to prepare him to feel comfortable and be able to interact well with players of other races. I can't tell you how many times during summer and fall ball seasons my son was the only Black person on the team and therefore, one of the four players sharing a double bedroom at a hotel on the road. Because Brian McCann and my son hit it off well, Brian always wanted my son as one of the four in his room. Kids will adjust. It is us, as grown-ups, that seemingly have the problem.
Very touching post! TR may try to help the kid, but what he said to the other coach is absolutely unacceptable. The other coach went silence was not because he agree with TR, it is because if the other coach responsed to such remark about race and being caught by the media, he could easily lose his job. Just like years ago, the old University of Oklahoma coach who "praised" a black player with good intention and got fired during the season. American people won't tolerate such remark no matter where you live!
catfish,
that wasnt directed at you. There was a comment about archie bunker earlier and I dont know how to post the quotes. But it was more or less saying that he didnt even realize he was a bigot.I was just applying that to say ti THrit that his comment to me does not make him a bigot.
My point was to all people who posts on here to just be mindful of comments made to other posters, people get heated up on this site and to me sometimes just get rude to other posters. I am not singaling out anyone its just something everyone needs to be mindful of. Like you said you only know people from their posts and hard to really know the entirety of a person by posts made on the hsbbw.
Its great to come in here and discuss things and to help people out and to disagree but I just think sometimes people say too much.
that wasnt directed at you. There was a comment about archie bunker earlier and I dont know how to post the quotes. But it was more or less saying that he didnt even realize he was a bigot.I was just applying that to say ti THrit that his comment to me does not make him a bigot.
My point was to all people who posts on here to just be mindful of comments made to other posters, people get heated up on this site and to me sometimes just get rude to other posters. I am not singaling out anyone its just something everyone needs to be mindful of. Like you said you only know people from their posts and hard to really know the entirety of a person by posts made on the hsbbw.
Its great to come in here and discuss things and to help people out and to disagree but I just think sometimes people say too much.
You are still all assuming things---I am speaking from experience with other players who did not "FIT" and returned home after a terrible experience-- talk about "learning" as a coach
Perhaps we go a bit too far in your eyes but we consider ourselves to be somewhat of a "guidance counseler" as well as a coach
Perhaps we go a bit too far in your eyes but we consider ourselves to be somewhat of a "guidance counseler" as well as a coach
quote:Perhaps we go a bit too far in your eyes but we consider ourselves to be somewhat of a "guidance counseler" as well as a coach
I consider myself a great singer in the shower and with my iPod blasting. My wife has another opinion.
Dude I can't sing, guidance counselors aren't baseball coaches, and baseball coaches aren't guidance counselors.
DAD04
I find the term "dude" a bit unbecoming for you and I detest the term
By the way I can sing ( actually made a living doing it for awhile), and I feel we can guide the kids (some of our coaches are educators)better than some of the HS guidance counselors
Again you assume ---
I find the term "dude" a bit unbecoming for you and I detest the term
By the way I can sing ( actually made a living doing it for awhile), and I feel we can guide the kids (some of our coaches are educators)better than some of the HS guidance counselors
Again you assume ---
Sorry dude, but with all due respect to high school guidence couselors, over the past 35 years I've been WAY less than impressed with them either.
QUOTE]Originally posted by TRhit:
Typical "left out coast" thinking---it had nothing to do with race---it had to do with proper fit---the kid would have been home before the first quarter break---
--------------------------------------------------
if it had nothing to do with race, why did you tell him ? your right we don't know everything that was said in your talk with the coach. only what you posted . i agree with the right fit but luckily todays players are color blind ,and it took a long time to get there. that is the right fit.
Typical "left out coast" thinking---it had nothing to do with race---it had to do with proper fit---the kid would have been home before the first quarter break---
--------------------------------------------------
if it had nothing to do with race, why did you tell him ? your right we don't know everything that was said in your talk with the coach. only what you posted . i agree with the right fit but luckily todays players are color blind ,and it took a long time to get there. that is the right fit.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
Perhaps we go a bit too far in your eyes but we consider ourselves to be somewhat of a "guidance counseler" as well as a coach
Be a guidance counselor and guide him, do not speak on his behalf.
You came on here explaining something that you did and maybe in your attempt to do so you may have misinterpreted yourself which leads people to other conclusions. All you needed to do was explain that it may have come off as wrong, but you had all good intentions for helping the player. But I understand that is very difficult for you to do, instead it becomes an issue that we don't know the circumstances and we don't know what we are talking about. Then instead of half a story, maybe the whole would have been more appropriate.
I understand your concerns. I live in an area with a very diverse culture, it is not for everyone, I have been here for 30 years, it grew on me, it's part of my life and my kids life, so where ever they would go they are used to diversity and can exist anywhere. I have had a few websters who have asked me about UM, before their visits, what was my opinion, and my suggestion is and always will be, you need to come visit and have your son decide for himself if this is the right "fit' and discuss that with the coaches. I never eluded to the fact that it may be different than what they are accustomed to, that is their choice. One parent said their son just loved it, was a new experience. For others it wasnot a good "fit". We all don't really know what a good fit is my son decided it was not a good "fit" for him either. But HE decided, not us. that's the point and we are his parents.
quote:Sorry dude, but with all due respect to high school guidence couselors, over the past 35 years I've been WAY less than impressed with them either.
You're not alone here!