Opinion on parent/coach conflict over health

I am going to repeat myself.
Dont say anything.
You never know who is watching....or listening.

Exactly my thinking from earlier in the thread.  Also completely agree with TPM - don't say anything.  

 

At what point do you cut the umbilical cord and let them stand on their own or let them learn from someone else?

Originally Posted by Back foot slider:

…66 pitches in three innings was not efficient work, and had at least one big inning.  The very next day throwing 22 pitches was also not very efficient, and likely had high stress throws.  So two days in a row with a tally of 88 pitches, with at least a few long innings.....he should be done until next week.

 

You use some trigger words I find very interesting. What do you consider “efficient” pitching and what makes up “high” stress as opposed to “normal” stress?

 

Just to make it easy to see, I do a Pitching Efficiency report. In it I show a lot of events by pitches per. Please see attached.

I used to watch David Robinson, the Admiral -- who knows a thing or two about basketball -- sit in the stands at his sons' basketball games and do nothing but cheer. 

 

Never once did he utter a single word to "help" them.

 

I always figured it was because he knew it wouldn't -- no matter how subtle.

I don't know about your part of the world, but in ironhorse's and my corner of it.... HS HC is not an entry level position. At a large school I coached I had 6 assistants all of which played college or beyond. When I was at a small school, my one asst. played college ball and all 6 HC in my district played college or beyond.  My neighbor high school just hired the local college asst. as HC.

  

I don't feel like many coaches go HS to College or College to HS. I think it is almost two different career paths.

 

And as far as compensation...... I make more than 85-90% of college coaches...

 

Sorry HS baseball in your area is so poor. Come to the Great State.... we would love to have more baseball people here.

Here's an update to the original post...

 

I met with the coach regarding the matter.  We had a professional and cordial conversation.  He said he was wrong about the decision he was about to make and he knows better.  It was the heat of the moment and he lost his cool a bit.  It was an awkward situation for all of us actually. I'm grateful for the conversation as I now have confidence that my kid won't be prodded to head out in a bad situation. 

 

I appreciate many of the comments made here.  What I find interesting is the fine lines which exist between the parent/coach/player relationship.  To the coaches out there...The parent has final say over their kids health and associated risks. Not you and not the player.  You have ZERO final decision authority when it comes to that.  I would hope you're smart enough to look at a kids future and not your win/loss column when you are confronted with the preliminary decision or are acting on the players' behalf.  Also, I think the "man up" comments demonstrate a naivety on the part of so many. I'm glad my son is competitive and doesn't want to take himself out of a game.  Too many kids get used to "being careful" and lose their competitive edge.  That one is on the parent.  It gets to the point where they don't pitch if the humidity isn't perfect. 

 

In my instance, the situation was so obvious. 

Nice post, I agree with much of which you wrote, however, the player HAS to be aware from as early as possible that he has a voice, and that if it doesn't feel right, then you do what you have to do, especially since he has had TJS.  The parent will not always be there to be his voice.  What will you do after HS, do you not think that he will only be in this situation while in HS? Probably not.

I am glad that you and the coach worked it out.

 

I am curious though, I may have missed it, exactly what year is your son in HS?

Hopefully, Florida will have some decent high school baseball someday. Anyway Congrats on your good fortune. I am sure everyone is equally impressed!

Everyone begins somewhere. A former player either HS, college or former pro accepting a HC job at a HS is considered entry level, IMO.

Glad things went well w coach. Seems like everything is moving forward.

"man up" Is usu discussed when people say players should work through injury, adversity, sore muscles, etc.

in you sons case it means he is only one who knows how his body feels, not coaches/parents.  If things don't feel right, he needs to be mature enough to speak up, stop and investigate causes/reasons for pain. 

still wondering if your son is comitted-thought u said he was to a D1.  If so, is there a concern that overdoing it after TJ can cause long term problems which can negatively effect college career?

But what quality programs hire a HC that has never coached, regardless of level of play? Playing baseball and running a program are vastly different things. Doesn't seem like a great hiring strategy to me, and honestly it doesn't happen around here, at least not that I know of. That's where the disagreement lies, I suppose.

I am still waiting for what year is he in?  

What makes a program a better quality than the other? IMO, there really are very few HS programs in the country that are what I may or Dad04 might consider of above average quality regardless if the coach has many years experience or just beginning. 

 

I mean here we have a post about a guy who misused his pitcher, is he from a quality program?  Is he what you would consider a quality coach?   How long has he been coaching?  In the county I live, I believe that  one has to be employed by the County to coach and you will find that many coaches do coach multiple sports.  They also teach.

 

Ironhorse, we both are from Florida, where there are some really excellent programs, good programs,  as well as meh ones too. I think that probably goes for the rest of the country. 

       
       
My last statement and bottom line on the whole entry level thing.  Any coach before hs doesn't count.  They are either parent volunteers or entrepreneurs who run 'elite' programs.  Not saying some of them aren't great coaches but let's stick to people qho are actually paid by schools or professional organizations.  Lets break the levels down here (sorry if I skip a couple) hs freshman, hs jv, hs varsity, juco, D3, NAIA, D2, D1, independ went leagues, foreign professional leagues, rookie ball, low A ball, A ball, Aa ball, AAA ball, MLB.  Then we.could throw in pitching coaches, batting instructors, bench coaches etc.  I would rather be pitching coach at top 25 D1 ABC university than HC at any high school in the world I don't care how good they are.  But.just by my example there are 13 levels above hs varsity and 2 levels below.  High school coaching is entry level stuff I don't care how good you are.  I take pride in what I do.  I am program pitching coach for all levels at out hs.  I study the game.  I am at.the entry level of baseball coaching.  Stop taking it as an insult.  Its just a fact.  I will know if I ever get beyond entry level when the ONLY check I draw is for baseball!

Do you have the pocket radar? Been thinking about making the purchase since the new version came out. I continually hear good reviews about their accuracy.

I see this post has come back so I will update. 

 

After a month not pitching and recuperating my son pitched a 7 inning 2 hit ball game last Tuesday.  

Total 105 pitch count. 

 

Personally I think he should have been limited to 5 innings.   

As of today his shoulder is a bit sore but getting better after that outing. 

 

 

Sorry to ask but if you could explain again what his injury was. That's a lot of pitches for his first game back. 

There are several things going on in this thread.

 

First, the parent is responsible for their child's health.  The trick then is how do you communicate your displeasure and/or be proactive about your child's health?  For me and speaking only for me when I coached, we need to have a conversation person to person.  How could any coach object to this when the topic is a child's health and, in the OPs case, recent surgery?

 

Per my child, I am guilty this last week of sending an email to my daughter's college coach.  I don't know how he took it.  My daughter is sick and has been for 2 weeks.  She now has bronchitis.  When practice ended this past Wednesday, she had to go to a Doctor because she could not breathe.  I sent a simple email telling Coach about what the Doctor said because I know my daughter won't.  Again, a simple email stating what she has and what the Doctor said.  Nothing else.  I know this, nothing can keep her off the field.  I haven't heard back from him but hope he took it in the manner it was intended.

 

Per HS coaches.  I absolutely disagree with some statements in this thread.  We tend to generalize a lot about HS coaches given our experiences in our limited areas.  In my area, I can't think of any 1st year HC that walked into that position without paying their dues as an assistant coach.  I know just about every coach in my area.  I think that this site has HS Head Coaches and former HS Head Coaches that demonstrate the vast knowledge that they have wrt baseball.  To be sure I would have been proud to have my child, if I had a son, play for them.  WRT, the quality of HS ball, man I'm glad I don't live where some of you live.  I coached in a program as an assistant coach that averaged 33 wins a year for 12 years.  A couple of those teams were ranked by USA Today and Collegiate Baseball as the #1 teams in the country.  I'd say that is an outstanding program.  When I left, my program averaged 24 wins a year despite playing a schedule comprised of half of our games against schools twice our size.  We won 4 regional titles in a row, won sectionals as well.  We did not make it to state but then again, we did pretty well.  Not exceptional!  I wish everyone could experience that type of HS baseball but I know that is not the case. 

His injury, according to the PT, was a muscle sprain to the back shoulder muscle.  He was given exercise to keep the muscle strong in that area.  

 

I totally agree.  Until coaches jobs are at risk for making these decisions it will continue. 

       
       
White sox, yes they are very accurate - sort of!  Got to be pretty clise to right behind the catcher.  No more than about five feet off that line.  No idea how to put that into an angle.  Also if you have a real deep backstop its 50/50.  Finally you have to live with some misreads.  First pitch I gunned the other day was 132mph.  And that was a 13u!  Obviously has a future...  at least right up until the next reading of 59 which is about where he stayed.  Do yourself a favor ajd pop the extra c note for the ball coach version.  That will allow continuous mode so you always get top speed or 'out of hand' speed.  I bought mine several years ago so it is the refular versiin.  I have to time pushing that button precisely.  But if I take 10 readings or so I fell like I have a pretty good reading.  And after all it is more of a hobby than anything else so if I am off an mph or so I am not going to wig out over it.  Biggest difference between PR and quality guns is range.  But close up it is pretty dead on.  Go get one, a lot of fun!

Thanks. Yes I was going to get the ball coach And it will be for hobby purposes only. Would like to check the boys exit velocity also. By the way total washout down here today so 2 weekends In a row without watching any level of HS baseball

Glad to hear it wasn't any more serious. My 2017 son is recovering from a minor slap tear. MRI was inconclusive but we played it safe. He is starting to do light throwing now. He's also an outfielder so he may get back in the field next week. No pitching yet. His coaches at least realize he needs to be ready for the summer. Pretty scary to all of us. 

From the father of a kid who had labrum surgery I can tell you one thing. Step in and stop it. Nothing is worth the injury. Nothing.

You can actually be reasonably far off the straight line as long as you're willing to adjust the numbers a little. I did the math a while back, and you only need to add 1-2mph for being 12-15 feet off the line (this includes being directly behind the catcher, but elevated like in a press box), IIRC. Consistency of readings is much better the closer you are to in line with the pitcher, though.

 

And I've sat next to Stalker's multiple times with the old version of the PR and gotten the same readings, occasionally +/- 1 mph. You get more "off" or non-reads with the PR, but the Stalker's pick up exit velocities on occasion, too, so nothing's perfect.

FWIW, I read a comment on here saying they thought HC position at some point is entry level. If I read that correctly, I have to disagree. UNLESS that is their first year ever to coach, and they got the HC job, I wouldn't consider it entry level. Typically, coaches will come in as some sort of assistant either at the HS or college level. Some even volunteer assistants. Rarely have I ever seen a HC become the HC in his first year ever coaching baseball.

Just curious, had he been at 105 pitches by his 5th inning, and then relieved for, would that had been okay? Trying to understand if the innings pitched or # of pitches was what concerned you?

You are correct.  Number of pitches.  Should have been capped at 85 pitches since he had been out a month.  

Since I was keeping pitch count he was at about 75 pitches at the end of 5th inning. 

He is starting the last district game today so I don't expect the coach to do anything different.  Hopefully I can get a signal to my son to take himself out. 

I gotcha... and I agree with you.

did your son have any preceding shoulder problems or did it just go all at once? How much damage did he have? How is his recovery?