Opinion on parent/coach conflict over health

And no offense to you, but I don't believe you are a HS varsity head coach (I could be wrong, so seriously, no offense). So it would stand to reason that if you become a HC it would not be an entry level position. Sure at the freshman ranks it may be, just like "select" organizations hire kids just done playing college to coach their younger, less prestigious groups.

 

But to insinuate that being a HS varsity HC is an entry level position is stupid. Not saying in some small towns where baseball isn't important that it doesn't happen, but in most decent baseball situations there's nothing entry level about it.

       
       
You are correct.  I am program pitching coach.  Last year worked strictly with varsity this year working with pitchers on all levels.  Always been a pitching coach.  Never applied for a HC position.  Was never really interested in being a HC.  That was my basketball gig.  No offense taken.  But if I were a HC I certainly would not consider myself entry level as I have spent many years learning the game.  And you are correct the better programs - as I stated - have high quality head coaches.  Mainly I just don't like name calling on these boards so I tend to defend those who are called names for no good reason.  And I still think the poster who called hs coaching entry level is somewhat correct.  And I stand by my statement after many years of coaching that there are a fair share of varsity head coaches who are not the sharpest knives in the drawer.  And let's not forget a lot of very capable people start in entry level positions.  It's not necessarily an insult.  Hs is the lowest level of real baseball.  Then comes college, then pro.  And even those could be broken into divisions.  A lot of college coaches got their start coaching hs.  Some great ones decide they like it and stay there.

Did I say every coach sucked? Some are obviously better and more successful than others. Some are very successful and accomplished in their field. Some simply have no business coaching. The vast majority fall somewhere between the two.

 

Name calling is always helpful and elevates the conversation. I could explain it to you. I just can't understand it for you.

  

 

Sarcasm usually does not help either.

Coaches always circle the wagon here. No biggy.

1.  I call a spade a spade

2.  I am not circling a wagon.  If you read my original post I stated the HC was at fault as much as the parent.  Also if you go back into my history you will find posts where I have blasted coaches.

3.  You're right some coaches don't belong coaching.  Just like some real estate agents have no business selling houses and some cops have no business being cops..

 

I will give a recent example as to my thought process of protecting your son's arm health. 

 

My son pitched 3 innings to get the save on a Tuesday, 66 P.C.  He had one inning where he just couldn't find the strike zone.  

Our team is in the process of making up two district games so Wednesday we play out of town and after the 5th inning I see my son warming up.  I see the he and the coach talking when he takes the mound in the 6th and evidently my son says he was OK with just one inning. He threw 22 pitches that inning.   I could tell from my radar gun that he was down 3 mph cruising velocity. 

Personally I would have rather my son not see the mound for 3 days but my goal is to get my son to stand up for himself as I may not be there. 

We play again today so if he was your son would you tell him to tell the coach he is not good for today?  I will.   

I realize that the coach gets caught up in the game.  I also realize he doesn't keep track of P.C.  So it's up to my son and I to look out for himself. 

For those suggesting that dad shouldn't have said anything to the coach at the time, but instead should have waited until later, what if his son had been injured throwing another 20 or 30 pitches the next inning?

 

I agree that all of this should have been discussed before the season, and as a coach myself, I understand that yelling at the coach in front of others isn't the best approach. However, the dad did need to make sure that his son didn't go out for another inning if he didn't feel it was in his best interest. If doing what he did was the only way to get that message across, I would hope that the coach would understand.

 

Hopefully a parent/coach meeting is in the plans to address this situation moving forward.

Lion,

 

I definitely would expect to NOT see your son throw today.  66 pitches in three innings was not efficient work, and had at least one big inning.  The very next day throwing 22 pitches was also not very efficient, and likely had high stress throws.  So two days in a row with a tally of 88 pitches, with at least a few long innings.....he should be done until next week.

1. Your HC doesn't keep track of pitch counts? That's just lazy and irresponsible.

2. You bring your own radar gun? That's a little over the top.

In my mind, throwing back to back days period is irresponsible, regardless of pitch count. Typically HS arms aren't used to or conditioned to do that. 

 

In my humble little mind, days of rest mean a lot more to health than overall pitch count (with obvious limitations).

Well if it matters I use the radar gun on all pitchers.  That way when I see an opposing pitcher throwing 70 mph I can tell my son on the batting circle to be very patient and scoot up toward the pitcher.  I also can identify when fatigue sets in with my son.  

It's real embarrassing when I yell "Scoot up toward the pitcher" in a game.  

 

It's also real fun when I'm wearing a D1 University baseball cap and have my gun out.  

What are you going to do if your son is lucky enough to play at the next level(s)?  You going to follow him around with your radar gun to tell him what to do at the plate every game he plays in college, minor leagues or pros?  Why not let him learn to do this on his own?  Let him learn to tell a coach when his gas tank is running empty in order to take him out?  

       
       
I bring my pocket radar everywhere we go.  Gun every kid in sight.  Kind of a hobby and habit now.  As a pitching coach I am always curious just how many kids are really throwing this or that.  Plus it lets me know exactly where my son stands.  No.guesswork.  No assumptions just facts.  I like it that way.

I don't know. 

No

Ok

Yes

 

Whew.  I'm glad I'm not the only one.  Yeah, I see it more of a tool.  The MLB sees radar as important also.  

I know some see it as a way of bragging but I did this last year when my son was averaging 76 mph.  The only part I don't like is when a Dad comes to me to ask what his son is throwing and when its 5-7 mph lower than expected gray clouds start coming out. 

I can't wait to use my radar gun during 16U travel ball this summer.  I know I'm going to see some high 80's. 

Lion because I like you I will gladly join you so we can get beat up together!!  Its funny you mention a 3mph drop.  That has always been about the same for my son.  Once he is down about 3mph even his control starts to slip.  And for many teams we play he can cut 3mph and still get outs...  but is it healthy?  Let me stipulate I have never yelled at a coach but I have no issue walking up to the dugout and letting them know he is probably done or at least needs to be watched closely.

 

I thought I was stating the obvious, that some coaches are better than others. I don't personally have a problem challenging a high school coach, regarding a students health. I have done so successfully. 

 

I think that is perfectly acceptable in an era where Tommy John surgery has reached epidemic proportions. There is obviously a systemic problem. High School coaches may be part of that problem. 

 

Also, obviously, high school coaches are the entry level for professional (read compensated) coaches. I thought that was obvious, as well.

The parents should step up and say something for sure, but in this situation, the coach is who did this.  Going forward, it shouldn't happen again, or the parent will share some of the responsibility.

I do the same with my Stalker. Never heard a negative word about it and, in fact, have been having the HC send the manger out to ask me what I'm getting on the gun.

I gotta try decking out in mlb garb. I'll bring my stop watch and a clipboard and get me one of those floppy fishing hats.

Root we will do the same with the stalker for our own hs games.  nut for my Son's travel ball...   I don't know #1 if the school would let me and #2 once you get used to the timing the pocket radar is very accurate in the long run.  Difference is the stalker missreads once in a blue moon while pocket radar you have.to get a pretty good sample size to be sure.  Pocket radar is good for youth diamonds and for most high school fields.  But if you get a really deep backstop it may be problematic.

       
       
Remember not to decked out though.  Most of them only have one article of team clothing and maybe not even that.  But I like the floppy fishing hat go with that - and make sure its old.

Well in our 3rd game of the week my son was scheduled to start but he pulled himself out during warming up on the mound because he actually felt a pain in his shoulder. He said it felt like something tore.  I told him before the game, once I found out his was to start pitching, to just pull himself out after the 1st inning.  I didn't know it was actual pain until after the game. 

This is why the UIL is neglecting the health of our kids by not mandating pitch counts and enforcing it.  Maybe pitch count will eventually be treated as seriously as concussions in football. 

Lion,

 

With all due respect.....asking him to pull himself out after first inning was not the best choice.  You should have made it CLEAR to him that if the coach actually was ignorant enough to plan a start for him, he should have never agreed.  The pregame warm ups with the previous work load was NOT good.  Heating up a pitcher with that work load is asking for trouble....pitchers throw at max effort prior to entering a game, and was not prudent.

 

Prayers, and best wishes for his shoulder.  Shame on his coach....and in retrospect I would guess you would have given more clear, and safer guidance.

 

Best wishes!

I hope you are joking.  

 

Why should I have to keep stats of pitch counts?  Or ask my son if he is pitching the day after he pitched 3 innings?  Why should I feel the necessity of attending each game so that my son's arm and shoulder health are protected?  These are still 14-18 y.o kids.  

 

Back in May of 2014 you stated

 

Eric Cressey recommended yesterday on Twitter that MLB teams require an MRI of their players elbow before they are drafted. This would show that the damage is often occurring prior to professional baseball. 

And I wonder why?  

 

What is interesting is that the principal and the AD were at every game this year and seem to have no problem with how many pitches are thrown. 

 

What is your opinion on concussion rules in high school football?  

Not sure if I consider this more of a coaching problem or a parental problem.

I have no issue with parents using radar guns, if they are used for the right purpose and in the right way.

 

You seem to get more enjoyment over getting attention more than what the gun is telling you about your son. If you gun every pitcher you see (on other teams) and a college HC notices, chances are your son will never get a sniff from that guy. That right there tells a lot to the coach and they don't want to be bothered dealing with that, or from kids that have folks with that parental attitude. This is not to cut you down, only to warn and give advice  that pretending to be a D1 coach gunning pitchers at a game, is not really amusing. Be careful what you post here. if you think no one is reading,  only just a bunch of dumb parents, you are WRONG. 

 

The dip in velocity actually told you there was an issue the other day. So IMO that tells me that you don't really know how to use that gun as a tool, rather a toy.

You did state that you would tell the coach that your son had already pitched too much this week. And you asked for our opinion as to what we would do.

But you let him go out there and warm up and made a plan that he would pull himself out?

I just don't get that.

 

Now your son has an issue, tells me that he most likely has pitched too much in many situations. Injuries just don't happen in a week. So that is on you.

 

Unfortunately, its the pitcher that ends up suffering. Its really sad that between one coach and one parent no one is looking out for his well being.

 

You seem to want people here to think that you have a lots of balls, but seems to me that you are not using them the way you should.  You dont have to be at every game, speak up and let the coach know where you stand.

 

And put the damn gun away.

 

Well you couldn't be more wrong in so many ways.  You have no problem with using a radar gun but put the gun away?  

 

I am looking out for the well being of my son.  In fact I'm the only one.  

 

If I was complaining about my son going out on the football field with a concussion I wouldn't be accused of meddling or shifting blame to someone else.   I consider pitch count to be just as serious as concussions in football.  It's also unfortunate that the UIL deems playing 4 games in one week to inconsequential.  Tell that to our catcher whose knees are getting beat up. 

 

No, I don't pretend to be a D1 coach.  If you don't get my humor then don't read my posts. 

 

I'm impressed that your son made it to the minors but that doesn't make you an expert or guru in baseball.  I suggest you implement a P.C. (post count). 

 

As my wife can attest, don't tell me what to do.   

 

Radar gun will not be put away.  

You dont get it. I never said you were meddling, show me where I mentioned that. I always state when a pitchers health is at stake, SPEAK UP. Speak up now while you are able to.

 

I stated that IMO you don't know how to use the gun effectively. You saw a dip in 3mph, but what did you do about it? What did you know to do about it? You act more like its your toy, not a tool for pitchers.

 

Gunning your son doesnt mean that you are being an advocate for your son. If you feel the way you do about your son, why didnt you speak up?  Now that he has an injury have you spoken to him. All you have done is lay blame and as far as I am concerned you are also to blame.

The number of posts is the way it is because when they came to this site, for some reason the posts doubled and tripled.

And yes I am proud to say that I have been here for a very long time, helping parents to figure out through this process and most of all, to help pitchers of parents to understand that in order to move forward, you have to remain healthy in the process.

 

You aren't that funny now and you were not when you were someone else at one time.

 

 

 

Maybe a moderator needs to step in. Or just drop it. Opinions expressed and agree to disagree, etc.

Lion baseball, I don't believe it is necessary that we legislate every little thing. Yes, coaches are stupid if they don't track pitch counts in some way. BUT what data is there to suggest when enough is enough?

 

regarding football concussions, last I checked concussion laws were the same regardless of sport. And while our concussion policy may not match the UIL perfectly, it's pretty close. Why? Because my team doctor was involved in writing the law! 

All is good.  

All I see now of TPM and Bulldog 19 is "You've blocked this member.  Click to view post".  

Lion,

 

I like you....and like most people on this board....I was trying to be "nice" in my previous post...I think the frustration you are receiving here is based on the numerous posts where advice was given, however not heeded.  Yes, we should expect coaches, AD's, Principals to be student advocates, however prior to your son rolling out a 3rd time, several of us (me included) gave sound / clear / concise advice...which was ignored.

 

Some use this board for the help it offers, some use it to live vicariously through their sons, while others use it to be argumentative, and hide behind anonymity.  Only you will be able to determine what benefit you ultimately receive from this board.

 

If you wait for the UIL, or HS to protect, and educate themselves regarding pitching limits / injuries, you will be waiting a long time.  This is my last post regarding this thread.  Lion - you will need to be where the "buck stops" as it relates to protecting your son.  My best wishes to you, and your son.

 

BFS 

Apparently I am not veteran enough or sharp enough to figure out who has multiple identities or whatever.  So if there is more history here I don't know it.  But let me try to be peacemaker here!  Lion is clearly frustrated and worried as we would all be in this situation.  It's like an argument with your spouse (like that TPM, non gender specific, almost said wife!) Arguing over who is at fault is a little like closing the barn door after the horse is gone.  Lion the only thing that matters now is what you do with your son from this day forward.  Next, as for number of posts...  why is this a topic that seems to come up now and then?  Who cares how much someone posts?  I post a lot.  Know why?  It brings me relaxation and enjoyment.  My knees are shot and I can no longer golf 18 on a saturday and 36 on a sunday.  I have kids coming out my ears and while everybody else in the house is watching tv I sit on my phone and do this.  It has become a hobby.  A source of relaxation.  That having been said some of us enter this site looking for an argument.   I know I did.  I was embroiled in a debate with someone, went looking for ammunition online.  Googled something and up popped a thread from HSBBW on the very topic.  Already in a fiesty mood from my debate with someone else I jumped right on got an ID and hammered away.  At the time I didn't give thought to if I would want to hang around this site.  Just yesterday I went back and read that first (for me) thread and wondered why I came off so angry.  I still know (not think lol.) That I was right but the way I went about it was a bit harsh.  Things here are getting a bit testy perhaps we should take a step back.  Lion I would encourage you to not block anyone.  Even if you don't like someone who knows when they might post something that will have a great impact on you?  Others, perhaps we could be a bit sensitive to the fact lion is hurting right now.  As for radar...  what is right and what is real are often times two different things.  Is it right for a college coach to pass judgement on a parent who likes to gun pitchers?  Probably not.  But is it a real possibility?   Yup.  And that's why I would probably never take the programs stalker out to my sons tournaments.  You can literally press the button on the pocket radar while it is in your pocket!  No comments here please usually a sweatshirt pocket!  Discrete.  Do about five pitches, return to where you were pull it out and check the history.  I have been a pitching coach far longer than I have been a parent.  I am afraid it is a habit I will not break.  Like anything else its not always what you do or say but how you do or say it!  Time to sing kumbaya (yes I have no idea how to spell that and no I am not going to waste time looking it up!)

P.S. sorry for the long post!

Good post jolietboy.
You obviously know and understand how to use the radar gun as a tool. 

Lion has blocked me because he knows tjat I know he has been here before...so he should know better.  Its not like this is a new topic.   As for who he was its not hard to figure it out..once a  jokester always a jokester.

The thing that jumped out at me, Lion -- was your comment about using the radar gun to share what you're seeing with your son when he's on deck.

 

Most parents, yours truly included, completely cut off all communication with their players (beyond cheering) at the HS level (many, before). It's tough, but IMO, necessary. 

 

 

Do you disagree? If so, help me understand why? Perhaps the coach asked you to do this?

 

But if you agree, help me understand the value of the radar gun?  

       
       
It is really hard!  Sometimes I wish I didn't know anything about baseball (insert wisecrack here I.e. "well that shouldn't be hard...).  My other kids swim.  Wife was a collegiate swimmer.  I know nothing about it.  I get so excited when they win.  Probably make a bit of a fool of myself.  And I just cheer cause thats all I can do.  With baseball and basketball I know every pitfall that can come his way and unfortunately I worry about them all.  Please god just let him get this kid out, please god don't let him strike out - not in this situation.  Oh god don't let him give up the big 3 at the buzzer to lose the game.  Probably going to get yelled at for veering too far off track here...  but its almost sad cause I don't get excited for my baseball player the way I do for the swimmers.  Its almost like when he does well its just a relief.  The negative part of your son being good is when he succeeds its expected so you would look silly celebrating but when he fails you know he is going to feel like he let his team down and your heart aches for him.  So the urge is so strong to try and guide him through every play of every game and protect him from pain.  But sooner or later you have to drop him from the nest - just hope he can fly!

jolietboy,
What you described is probably the norm.  And it has nothing to
do with knowing the pitfalls. Most of us know its angame of failure.
But actually calling out to your son as he is either pitching or standing on deck is basically little league.  Most folks know by the time their son reaches HS its unacceptable.

Dont ever let a scout or a college coach see that either.

Agreed but there are also ways to give cues without being too obvious.  For example if your kid's on the bump and he's got an 0-2 count on his opponent's #3 hitter, yelling "Be smart here, Junior." is a good alternative for "Nothing in the strike zone!".  Or if your kid is the hitter down 0-2, yelling "Shorten up and put it in play." is a good replacement for "You know goshdarn well the duece is coming now, Sonnyboy."

 

But of course if either of those kids is any good at the game they probably won't hear anything that you or anybody else on the outside of the fence tells them.