Opinion on parent/coach conflict over health

Even though I don't believe in getting involved when it comes to my sons HS baseball experience, I think your situation is different. I would have done the same if it were my son and his health was at stake, especially since you have already been down that road before. Might be a good time to have a discussion with your coach.    

I would always recommend waiting 24 hrs before having a conversation after a conflict. 

Was there  a mtg between u, coach, son discussing his surgery and discussing how he would be brought along this yr on the team?

If not, that's where the problem occured. All for players only talking w coaches, but when medical issue is involved im all  for a mtg w coach and relaying dr/pt info. 

 Was this yelling/conflict w coach in front of everyone? Really bad if it was. Son also needs to learn to speak up. 

Sure you'll  talk and straighten things out. Better communication by both parties needed.

There is always a choice. Sometimes you take the lesser of two evils. It seems like the coach was willing to make your son roll the dice with his short- and long-term health. That's a safety issue. One of the very, very few times a parent should and must intercede on behalf of his/her son. If this all happened real-time in front of everyone, that would be highly unfortunate.

 

I'd recommend not talking with HC one-on-one, or at the very least let the situation cool for a day or two. I'd recommend setting-up a conference meeting with the HS AD or principal in charge of sports, you, and the HC. Make sure you are heard, he has the opportunity as well, and the administrator knows the context and is in a situation to intervene if there is (unfair) retaliation.

Unfortunately your son will have command issues and that is normal after TJS. And being a starter then all of a sudden a reliever is an adjustment for anyone.

 

Regardless, stressful innings are not good, for anyone, not just those after surgery.

 

IMO you have every right to be concerned but at the game was not the time to speak up. There should have been a plan for this season for managing his pitching so there is no setback later on.

 

Also your son has to take responsibility as well.  There is a reason he had TJS, dont repeat it.

 

You need to sit down with him and the coach to discuss, both at the same time. When health issues are involved, don't be afraid to confront but do it the right way.  And its not about just trusting the coach, but your son as well.

 

What year is your son?

Jim T, I applaud you on your intervention! And personally I don’t care who it was in front of because that wasn’t on you, it was on the coach who made a very poor decision.

 

Based on the scenario you described and assuming its accurate (not meant to be offensive, there's just usually 2 sides to any story), you did what you had to do.

 

Now time to sit down with your son and make sure he knows how to stick up for himself and tell the coach he cannot go back into the game at the proper time.

First off my guy has never had surgury.I am just not sure how I would react with that being a part of things.I compliment you with this only being a verbal thing.I go thru this with my 2016 way too much.From MY point of view I put alot of this on our sons.They have to learn to speak up for themselves.Sounds to me like  our guys both were instilled with some of the same things.Leave it all on the field and listen to your coaches.Unfortunatly with what is starting to be understood with P.C thats not always the best thing.Whats the coach like with the other pitchers? feel free to PM.  

For future reference for anyone else.  Have this conversation BEFORE the season.  I will always discuss with a coach their philosophy on limitations before the season.  My son's travel coach knows the limits (not dictated by me but a number we agreed upon mutually) and we haven't played our first game yet. Now if he goes beyond those limits I have every right to intercede because we have an agreement.  Even though you missed your opportunity to do this before the season you need to have that same conversation now.  Never feel bad about protecting your son's health.  And one more note on this.  I know people are - with good intentions - always saying the player needs to speak for themselves and leave the parent out of it.  But ask yourself what would you have done at that age?  In my day you did exactly what the coach asked with no questions.  I know times have changed some but confrontation even when it is done in a nice way is still very tough for a lot of kids.  Plus kids think they are invincible.   They will take the ball for 200 pitches cause 'they are a man'.  Protect your kids health.

It is quite obvious the coach is not very savvy as it relates to pitch counts, or arm health.  There is no correlation between 85 pitches through 7 innings, and 68 pitches through 2.  It is not necessarily the number of throws, however it is the number of high stress throws.  A 24 pitch inning, followed by a 44 pitch inning is the poster child for "HIGH STRESS" throws. 

 

I just witnessed this exact same thing last week at son's HS game, with a promising LHP on the opponent side, and it took every ounce of restrain for me not to walk over the the opposing dugout and have a "talk" with their coach.  I did not, and still wonder if I did the right thing.  Son was pitching that game, and was having very efficient (low pitch count innings) which made it worse for the opposing pitcher.  He'd throw 30+ pitches, then have to roll back out there after a 10-12 pitch 3 up 3 down.

 

High pitch count innings, especially 40+ means you have runners on base, which makes for even higher stress throws.  Add all of this to the fact that he is coming off of TJ, I would intervene.  As others stated, should have been a conversation you had before, and certainly should have now!

I agree that these issues should be handled prior to the season between the coach, parent, player and doctors. 

 

IMO, gather up all the medical bills for the surgery and rehab.  Give them to the coach and tell him the next one is on his dime.  You and your kid have been thru a lot both emotionally and financially.  Good luck. 

I am sure if someone walked into your place of business and yelled at you in front of a group of people you would have been upset as well.  I am not sure why OP and coach never had this conversation prior to the season happening.  As a parent you have ever right to be upset, however, you handled it in a very unprofessional way in belittling him in the middle of the game.  However, I also believe that the coach should have never even considered putting him in after 44 pitches in an inning.  I have never rolled a kid back onto a mound if he threw 30 pitches in an inning.  I believe both parties to be in the wrong for creating this situation.

Nothing good happens after or during a 30 pitch inning. Neither to the game score itself or to the health of the pitcher.

There is a reason it should come from the player. Well there are many reasons. Should the player have to? No. Should a coach no better? Yes. By the time a player reaches the HS ranks he needs to be taught how to handle his business. Sometimes that means keeping his mouth shut and taking it. Sometimes that means speaking up for himself and standing his ground. And all the time that means he should do it in a respectful manner. It doesn't matter if the coach is a clown or not. That should not determine how you handle the situation. It just means your going to have to handle some situations.

 

 I can certainly understand your anger and your emotions in a situation like this. It should not have to be dealt with because it shouldn't happen. Yes ball players are warrior's. We teach them to be warrior's. We want them to want the ball. We want them to say I got this. But at the same time they need to know how to stand up for themselves in situations. "Coach I want to keep going. I want to battle it out. But I'm done. You know I am coming off TJ and just threw a ton of pitches. For the sake of the team I need to hand it off to someone else."

 

The coach can handle it anyway he wants to after that. But at least he knows that he can't do that to him. Maybe it will jar him into reality? Maybe it will make him think about how stupid he was? But regardless he will know that your son won't be that guy. And now you won't find yourself in a situation like you are in. Again I understand your reaction. You had every right to be ticked off. Just a suggestion.

I didn't read where the OP yelled at the coach.

While I am in 100% agreement they should have talked.Would part of that conversation have  been "if my kid throws 44 pitches in an inning please take him out"I think alot of times alot of us parents figure there will be a certain amount of professionalism. Involved with how our young pitchers are handled.We as parents of pitchers assume too much.A big part of this problem is the schools involved.When was the last time you had to go to school and tell the math teacher they have no clue when it comes to long division?Of any thing that has to do with HSBB the one thing any parent should NOT EVER have to talk about is overusing/ too many pitches.In reality its about the only thing a coach/team can control.I read all the time.take care of what you can control.Don't sweat the rest.

The conversation was had prior to the season. No offense taken from prior comments.  In an ideal world, my son would have told him no but it's not about him speaking up for himself. Like many competitive kids, he won't admit he's too tired or doesn't have it. The coach should not rely on the kid to be honest about that. Major league and college coaches don't leave it up to the pitcher in most cases.

The yelling occurred because he was trying to force a bad decision and rationalize it. I was less upset about the exchange last night. My son agreed when he got home that he should have come out when he did. He had no idea he threw many pitches. I'm more concerned that he will disregard counts when I'm not there.

First of all, a conversation prior to the season regarding a pitcher pitching 68 pitches in 2 innings should not have to take place.  The HC is a complete idiot, especially when you factor in that the kid just had Tommy John.  That is on him completely. 

 

However, yelling at him through the crowd was probably not the best choice.  I would have gone to the dugout and spoke to him about it, and I wouldn't give 2 @%&*#+ if he got mad about it.  The safety of my son is imperative, and I don't care how anyone else feels about it.  A meeting with the HC, AD, and Principal is in order.  This guy is a moron.

       
       
If you have already had the conversation and he is blowing through the stop sign then he is 100% in the wrong.  And while it may be justified for you to yell at him from the stands you would make yourself look a lot better going to the dugout and handling it quietly.  My dad was living proof that you could be just as forceful in a low tone as yelling.  Of course his popeye forearms also spoke rather loudly!

Dont compare this situation to what goes on after HS.
What year is your son ....second request.

High school is entry level coaching. Some work out, some don't.

 

* Stick to your guns.

* Make sure your son knows he is also responsible for his health.

* Don't be afraid to advocate for your son's health.

 

We had a similar (huge pitch count) situation senior year that ended with the new head coach looking for another gig. He had five more jobs in five years before losing his last job (opening day) for spiking the Gatorade with Creatine. True story.

 

http://jacksonville.com/sports...ball_coach_dismissed

Sorry.  2016

dont agree w getting AD or principal involved at this time. Have a mtg w coach and get on same page, son should be there too! as well as assist coaches.

State expectations based on medical facts. Tell son he has to man up and not say he wants to keep pitching and speak up if he's tired or feels any pain. Discuss pitch limits and best way to move forward. 

Agree w TPM that son will be rusty for awhile. You said he Pitched 85 already this season in 7 innings. Now your upset over 68?  was he tired, or frustrated over his performance? We're you noticing his mechanics changing? Did he pitch well in 85 pitch game?  

Give situation one more try before going over his head to administration. 

You must not have read the post correctly.  Do you think 68 pitches in two innings (24 & 44) is less stressful than 85 over 7 innings?  So if a MLB guy is limited to 110 would you think it's ok to do it all in 1, 2 or 3 innings? 

 

It's not about "manning up".  You have no idea what you're talking about.  The medical conversation happened a long time ago.  One commenter had it right that you would not have a conversation around a scenario where he throws 68 pitches in two innings then heads back out again.  Why would that even enter the realm of possibility? 

 

Don't intend to do anything other than speak to the coach who still has not returned by call.   

If I'm remembering correctly, your son is also a position player who swings a big bat, looking to go major D1. Is that as a position player or a pitcher? If he wants to go the position route, then it seems you would have the option of shutting him down this spring as a pitcher. The spring season isn't a big time for college recruiting anyway.  This summer is so critical, getting him in the best position for a great summer should be a top priority. Just a thought.

 

Good luck to him. Great that his recovery from TJ is going well.

Based on the information given by the OP, getting the AD/Principal involved is warranted.  One, he won't return phone calls,and two, it is a health/safety issue.  44 Pitches in one inning, and 68 in two is a heck of a lot of pitches for a fully healthy, young man. One coming off of Tommy John??

U did not read my post correctly. Manning up has to do w son telling coach if he's tired or arm hurts and not going out again. Not saying he should have. Assume he didn't and another P went in for last 3 outs.

If I were coach he would not have gone 44.  I was just asking how his location was as a starter since his return from surgery. 

If you were worried about the 44 , 68 total you should have walked over and checked on him, not get into shouting match w coach across field. our coach,never allows parents near dugout, but would if it's a health issue. 

Hope it all works out for your sons arm

This is a very tough situation. Being in your shoes, I would have probably done something similar. TJ surgery and recovery seems to be no joke and when a kid's health is involved someone has to stand up for him. That said, I'm curious if your kid simply could have just said, "coach, I've stretched it and got nothing left."  

I really do appreciate all of the comments about the coach being a moron. What I'd be interested to know is what this player's pitching load looked like prior to surgery. Dr. Andrews has stated multiple times that the "epidemic" in professional baseball is due to the younger ages, NOT professional baseball. I have a feeling this situation is much the same. Would all of you flat-out calling the coach a moron also call the parents a moron???

The problem is the coach holds the cards to the player's future. I've seen coaches take it out on players when the parent showed them up publicly. Get pissed and leave the program? Sure. It means sitting out a year. To approach the coach is in the best interest of the kid. To "confront" the coach in front of others is not wise. And regardless of the subject It's not very mature and level headed.

 

OP: Keep in mind the poster who told says you did the right thing has never coached at any level. He has no experience on how a coach feels to get showed up in front of his team and parents. He has no idea how the coach holds the power card in these confrontations.

 

I agree with those who say a plan for how he would be used in his comeback from surgery should have been developed before the season. When he hits pitch X he's out of the game.

Bulldog,

 

I don't know if I'd call the parents a "moron" or not....likely not.  I am not sure Dr. Andrews "said" that these injuries are due to youth baseball....he said they might be.  He also said, that at the end of the day, there are pitchers who have never been over pitched, never threw curveballs prior to maturity, and still have TJS.  There are some (Dr. Andrews included) who have indicated that the UCL may have a finite amount of stressful throws at high velocity that will result in a tear (genetics). 

 

If you believe overuse, or a predetermined number of "bullets" in the gun could result in TJ, then this coach jeopardized both.  He is the "expert", the parents should commit to becoming knowledgeable, however that is the job of the coach.  68 pitches in 2 innings is just flat out inexcusable.

       
       
If there was sufficient evidence to show the parents acted irresponsibly during his youth years I just might.  But the.coach is supposed to know better it is his J O B!

My son had a high school coach were the next thing he learned about pitching would be the first thing he learned. There wasn't a pitching coach when my son's varsity career started (soph year). 

 

My son was a reliever. He could come in and throw hard strikes. He often had to do it coming from his field position. The coach never put him on the mound to start an inning. He always waited until the barn was on fire. Every pitch was a stress pitch.

 

On day in 20 something degree windchill the coach came to the mound and handed the ball to my son. My son handed it back. My son told him he would be happy to leave the game for one hitter, warm up and return to the game. But he needed time to do his blood flow and stretching exercises and throw a few pitches on the sidelines. My son was able to say this to the coach because I had a conversation with my son on things you do and don't do as a pitcher. Before the season he told the coach if it's possible he's going to the mound tell him between innings so he can get loose. It didn't happen this day. He was never told it might be possible he would pitch.

 

The coach gave him a dirty look and gave the ball back to the pitcher. He didn't have much to say to my son for a few days. There were also other short term consequences. He sat him for a game for not being a team player. But the coach got over it.

Backfoot should have read your post first...  you said what I said only a lot better!

Crying over spilled milk now.  You don't' have control over the coach and you made your best effort to discuss the issue.  Now, have the conversation with your son and make sure he has that conversation with the coach.  IOWs, have him talk to the coach and point out that he is not out of the woods yet, will walk a lot of hitters, will hard charge as best he can but needs the coach to understand that he can't stand out there and just throw.  He can assure the coach that at some point this season, with hard work and good restraint on his pitching, he will be able to get back to where he once was or even better.  However, that is a road to recover and he is not at the destination. 

You are right.  I am making a logical guess based on the fact that the only way I would hear a parent say something like that is if they yelled it.

Who ever posts something like this and believes it is a Jack Hole.  Some of the greatest baseball coaches I have ever been around are HS baseball coaches.  In every work place there are bad examples of professionals. 

You ve also posted in past that your son has committed .  Is that still happening and if so what has college coach said, if anything, about you son having had TJ and getting back into pitching. Was he recruited as P ? 
I still say don't go over his head until u speak w him and it more than likely will get better after that.
I agree w others he can  take it out on your son. If he's yelling at parents during game sounds like he has a short fuse. Also curious if scorekeeper who alerted coach to sons  pitch count did so privately or yelled that out for all to hear. Coach could have taken that in negative way.

       
       
No need for name calling or to be so defensive.  The poster is correct for the most part.  I have coached with and for many great hs coaches.  Many IHSA hall of fame coaches.  In fact a recent inductee is someone I coached once upon a time.  I would like to think I have studied my craft and know the game pretty well.  But (yes there is a but) I first started coaching baseball cause I was told they needed another coach.  I was really only concerned about basketball when I first started teaching.  I was a baseball fan and was probably at the level of a lot of youth parent coaches - knew just enough to be dangerous.  From there its a choice, do you take pride in what you do and learn or do you just take up space.  Now keep in mind my first hs baseball coaching assignment was at a state championship level program.  Imagine the 'coaches' they have to drag out for  lesser programs.  And yes I have seen idiots even at the varsity level.  For assistant spots where I coach they get almost no applicants.  Some go on to be great coaches and I agree with you some of the great ones are no doubt as good as any D1 or even mlb coaches/managers and I say that with confidence.   But that is not the majority and hs coaching is rather entry level.

And no offense to you, but I don't believe you are a HS varsity head coach (I could be wrong, so seriously, no offense). So it would stand to reason that if you become a HC it would not be an entry level position. Sure at the freshman ranks it may be, just like "select" organizations hire kids just done playing college to coach their younger, less prestigious groups.

 

But to insinuate that being a HS varsity HC is an entry level position is stupid. Not saying in some small towns where baseball isn't important that it doesn't happen, but in most decent baseball situations there's nothing entry level about it.

       
       
You are correct.  I am program pitching coach.  Last year worked strictly with varsity this year working with pitchers on all levels.  Always been a pitching coach.  Never applied for a HC position.  Was never really interested in being a HC.  That was my basketball gig.  No offense taken.  But if I were a HC I certainly would not consider myself entry level as I have spent many years learning the game.  And you are correct the better programs - as I stated - have high quality head coaches.  Mainly I just don't like name calling on these boards so I tend to defend those who are called names for no good reason.  And I still think the poster who called hs coaching entry level is somewhat correct.  And I stand by my statement after many years of coaching that there are a fair share of varsity head coaches who are not the sharpest knives in the drawer.  And let's not forget a lot of very capable people start in entry level positions.  It's not necessarily an insult.  Hs is the lowest level of real baseball.  Then comes college, then pro.  And even those could be broken into divisions.  A lot of college coaches got their start coaching hs.  Some great ones decide they like it and stay there.

Did I say every coach sucked? Some are obviously better and more successful than others. Some are very successful and accomplished in their field. Some simply have no business coaching. The vast majority fall somewhere between the two.

 

Name calling is always helpful and elevates the conversation. I could explain it to you. I just can't understand it for you.

  

 

Sarcasm usually does not help either.

Coaches always circle the wagon here. No biggy.

1.  I call a spade a spade

2.  I am not circling a wagon.  If you read my original post I stated the HC was at fault as much as the parent.  Also if you go back into my history you will find posts where I have blasted coaches.

3.  You're right some coaches don't belong coaching.  Just like some real estate agents have no business selling houses and some cops have no business being cops..

 

I will give a recent example as to my thought process of protecting your son's arm health. 

 

My son pitched 3 innings to get the save on a Tuesday, 66 P.C.  He had one inning where he just couldn't find the strike zone.  

Our team is in the process of making up two district games so Wednesday we play out of town and after the 5th inning I see my son warming up.  I see the he and the coach talking when he takes the mound in the 6th and evidently my son says he was OK with just one inning. He threw 22 pitches that inning.   I could tell from my radar gun that he was down 3 mph cruising velocity. 

Personally I would have rather my son not see the mound for 3 days but my goal is to get my son to stand up for himself as I may not be there. 

We play again today so if he was your son would you tell him to tell the coach he is not good for today?  I will.   

I realize that the coach gets caught up in the game.  I also realize he doesn't keep track of P.C.  So it's up to my son and I to look out for himself. 

For those suggesting that dad shouldn't have said anything to the coach at the time, but instead should have waited until later, what if his son had been injured throwing another 20 or 30 pitches the next inning?

 

I agree that all of this should have been discussed before the season, and as a coach myself, I understand that yelling at the coach in front of others isn't the best approach. However, the dad did need to make sure that his son didn't go out for another inning if he didn't feel it was in his best interest. If doing what he did was the only way to get that message across, I would hope that the coach would understand.

 

Hopefully a parent/coach meeting is in the plans to address this situation moving forward.

Lion,

 

I definitely would expect to NOT see your son throw today.  66 pitches in three innings was not efficient work, and had at least one big inning.  The very next day throwing 22 pitches was also not very efficient, and likely had high stress throws.  So two days in a row with a tally of 88 pitches, with at least a few long innings.....he should be done until next week.

1. Your HC doesn't keep track of pitch counts? That's just lazy and irresponsible.

2. You bring your own radar gun? That's a little over the top.

In my mind, throwing back to back days period is irresponsible, regardless of pitch count. Typically HS arms aren't used to or conditioned to do that. 

 

In my humble little mind, days of rest mean a lot more to health than overall pitch count (with obvious limitations).

Well if it matters I use the radar gun on all pitchers.  That way when I see an opposing pitcher throwing 70 mph I can tell my son on the batting circle to be very patient and scoot up toward the pitcher.  I also can identify when fatigue sets in with my son.  

It's real embarrassing when I yell "Scoot up toward the pitcher" in a game.  

 

It's also real fun when I'm wearing a D1 University baseball cap and have my gun out.  

What are you going to do if your son is lucky enough to play at the next level(s)?  You going to follow him around with your radar gun to tell him what to do at the plate every game he plays in college, minor leagues or pros?  Why not let him learn to do this on his own?  Let him learn to tell a coach when his gas tank is running empty in order to take him out?  

       
       
I bring my pocket radar everywhere we go.  Gun every kid in sight.  Kind of a hobby and habit now.  As a pitching coach I am always curious just how many kids are really throwing this or that.  Plus it lets me know exactly where my son stands.  No.guesswork.  No assumptions just facts.  I like it that way.

I don't know. 

No

Ok

Yes

 

Whew.  I'm glad I'm not the only one.  Yeah, I see it more of a tool.  The MLB sees radar as important also.  

I know some see it as a way of bragging but I did this last year when my son was averaging 76 mph.  The only part I don't like is when a Dad comes to me to ask what his son is throwing and when its 5-7 mph lower than expected gray clouds start coming out. 

I can't wait to use my radar gun during 16U travel ball this summer.  I know I'm going to see some high 80's. 

Lion because I like you I will gladly join you so we can get beat up together!!  Its funny you mention a 3mph drop.  That has always been about the same for my son.  Once he is down about 3mph even his control starts to slip.  And for many teams we play he can cut 3mph and still get outs...  but is it healthy?  Let me stipulate I have never yelled at a coach but I have no issue walking up to the dugout and letting them know he is probably done or at least needs to be watched closely.

 

I thought I was stating the obvious, that some coaches are better than others. I don't personally have a problem challenging a high school coach, regarding a students health. I have done so successfully. 

 

I think that is perfectly acceptable in an era where Tommy John surgery has reached epidemic proportions. There is obviously a systemic problem. High School coaches may be part of that problem. 

 

Also, obviously, high school coaches are the entry level for professional (read compensated) coaches. I thought that was obvious, as well.

The parents should step up and say something for sure, but in this situation, the coach is who did this.  Going forward, it shouldn't happen again, or the parent will share some of the responsibility.

I do the same with my Stalker. Never heard a negative word about it and, in fact, have been having the HC send the manger out to ask me what I'm getting on the gun.

I gotta try decking out in mlb garb. I'll bring my stop watch and a clipboard and get me one of those floppy fishing hats.

Root we will do the same with the stalker for our own hs games.  nut for my Son's travel ball...   I don't know #1 if the school would let me and #2 once you get used to the timing the pocket radar is very accurate in the long run.  Difference is the stalker missreads once in a blue moon while pocket radar you have.to get a pretty good sample size to be sure.  Pocket radar is good for youth diamonds and for most high school fields.  But if you get a really deep backstop it may be problematic.

       
       
Remember not to decked out though.  Most of them only have one article of team clothing and maybe not even that.  But I like the floppy fishing hat go with that - and make sure its old.

Well in our 3rd game of the week my son was scheduled to start but he pulled himself out during warming up on the mound because he actually felt a pain in his shoulder. He said it felt like something tore.  I told him before the game, once I found out his was to start pitching, to just pull himself out after the 1st inning.  I didn't know it was actual pain until after the game. 

This is why the UIL is neglecting the health of our kids by not mandating pitch counts and enforcing it.  Maybe pitch count will eventually be treated as seriously as concussions in football. 

Lion,

 

With all due respect.....asking him to pull himself out after first inning was not the best choice.  You should have made it CLEAR to him that if the coach actually was ignorant enough to plan a start for him, he should have never agreed.  The pregame warm ups with the previous work load was NOT good.  Heating up a pitcher with that work load is asking for trouble....pitchers throw at max effort prior to entering a game, and was not prudent.

 

Prayers, and best wishes for his shoulder.  Shame on his coach....and in retrospect I would guess you would have given more clear, and safer guidance.

 

Best wishes!

I hope you are joking.  

 

Why should I have to keep stats of pitch counts?  Or ask my son if he is pitching the day after he pitched 3 innings?  Why should I feel the necessity of attending each game so that my son's arm and shoulder health are protected?  These are still 14-18 y.o kids.  

 

Back in May of 2014 you stated

 

Eric Cressey recommended yesterday on Twitter that MLB teams require an MRI of their players elbow before they are drafted. This would show that the damage is often occurring prior to professional baseball. 

And I wonder why?  

 

What is interesting is that the principal and the AD were at every game this year and seem to have no problem with how many pitches are thrown. 

 

What is your opinion on concussion rules in high school football?  

Not sure if I consider this more of a coaching problem or a parental problem.

I have no issue with parents using radar guns, if they are used for the right purpose and in the right way.

 

You seem to get more enjoyment over getting attention more than what the gun is telling you about your son. If you gun every pitcher you see (on other teams) and a college HC notices, chances are your son will never get a sniff from that guy. That right there tells a lot to the coach and they don't want to be bothered dealing with that, or from kids that have folks with that parental attitude. This is not to cut you down, only to warn and give advice  that pretending to be a D1 coach gunning pitchers at a game, is not really amusing. Be careful what you post here. if you think no one is reading,  only just a bunch of dumb parents, you are WRONG. 

 

The dip in velocity actually told you there was an issue the other day. So IMO that tells me that you don't really know how to use that gun as a tool, rather a toy.

You did state that you would tell the coach that your son had already pitched too much this week. And you asked for our opinion as to what we would do.

But you let him go out there and warm up and made a plan that he would pull himself out?

I just don't get that.

 

Now your son has an issue, tells me that he most likely has pitched too much in many situations. Injuries just don't happen in a week. So that is on you.

 

Unfortunately, its the pitcher that ends up suffering. Its really sad that between one coach and one parent no one is looking out for his well being.

 

You seem to want people here to think that you have a lots of balls, but seems to me that you are not using them the way you should.  You dont have to be at every game, speak up and let the coach know where you stand.

 

And put the damn gun away.

 

Well you couldn't be more wrong in so many ways.  You have no problem with using a radar gun but put the gun away?  

 

I am looking out for the well being of my son.  In fact I'm the only one.  

 

If I was complaining about my son going out on the football field with a concussion I wouldn't be accused of meddling or shifting blame to someone else.   I consider pitch count to be just as serious as concussions in football.  It's also unfortunate that the UIL deems playing 4 games in one week to inconsequential.  Tell that to our catcher whose knees are getting beat up. 

 

No, I don't pretend to be a D1 coach.  If you don't get my humor then don't read my posts. 

 

I'm impressed that your son made it to the minors but that doesn't make you an expert or guru in baseball.  I suggest you implement a P.C. (post count). 

 

As my wife can attest, don't tell me what to do.   

 

Radar gun will not be put away.  

You dont get it. I never said you were meddling, show me where I mentioned that. I always state when a pitchers health is at stake, SPEAK UP. Speak up now while you are able to.

 

I stated that IMO you don't know how to use the gun effectively. You saw a dip in 3mph, but what did you do about it? What did you know to do about it? You act more like its your toy, not a tool for pitchers.

 

Gunning your son doesnt mean that you are being an advocate for your son. If you feel the way you do about your son, why didnt you speak up?  Now that he has an injury have you spoken to him. All you have done is lay blame and as far as I am concerned you are also to blame.

The number of posts is the way it is because when they came to this site, for some reason the posts doubled and tripled.

And yes I am proud to say that I have been here for a very long time, helping parents to figure out through this process and most of all, to help pitchers of parents to understand that in order to move forward, you have to remain healthy in the process.

 

You aren't that funny now and you were not when you were someone else at one time.

 

 

 

Maybe a moderator needs to step in. Or just drop it. Opinions expressed and agree to disagree, etc.

Lion baseball, I don't believe it is necessary that we legislate every little thing. Yes, coaches are stupid if they don't track pitch counts in some way. BUT what data is there to suggest when enough is enough?

 

regarding football concussions, last I checked concussion laws were the same regardless of sport. And while our concussion policy may not match the UIL perfectly, it's pretty close. Why? Because my team doctor was involved in writing the law! 

All is good.  

All I see now of TPM and Bulldog 19 is "You've blocked this member.  Click to view post".  

Lion,

 

I like you....and like most people on this board....I was trying to be "nice" in my previous post...I think the frustration you are receiving here is based on the numerous posts where advice was given, however not heeded.  Yes, we should expect coaches, AD's, Principals to be student advocates, however prior to your son rolling out a 3rd time, several of us (me included) gave sound / clear / concise advice...which was ignored.

 

Some use this board for the help it offers, some use it to live vicariously through their sons, while others use it to be argumentative, and hide behind anonymity.  Only you will be able to determine what benefit you ultimately receive from this board.

 

If you wait for the UIL, or HS to protect, and educate themselves regarding pitching limits / injuries, you will be waiting a long time.  This is my last post regarding this thread.  Lion - you will need to be where the "buck stops" as it relates to protecting your son.  My best wishes to you, and your son.

 

BFS 

Apparently I am not veteran enough or sharp enough to figure out who has multiple identities or whatever.  So if there is more history here I don't know it.  But let me try to be peacemaker here!  Lion is clearly frustrated and worried as we would all be in this situation.  It's like an argument with your spouse (like that TPM, non gender specific, almost said wife!) Arguing over who is at fault is a little like closing the barn door after the horse is gone.  Lion the only thing that matters now is what you do with your son from this day forward.  Next, as for number of posts...  why is this a topic that seems to come up now and then?  Who cares how much someone posts?  I post a lot.  Know why?  It brings me relaxation and enjoyment.  My knees are shot and I can no longer golf 18 on a saturday and 36 on a sunday.  I have kids coming out my ears and while everybody else in the house is watching tv I sit on my phone and do this.  It has become a hobby.  A source of relaxation.  That having been said some of us enter this site looking for an argument.   I know I did.  I was embroiled in a debate with someone, went looking for ammunition online.  Googled something and up popped a thread from HSBBW on the very topic.  Already in a fiesty mood from my debate with someone else I jumped right on got an ID and hammered away.  At the time I didn't give thought to if I would want to hang around this site.  Just yesterday I went back and read that first (for me) thread and wondered why I came off so angry.  I still know (not think lol.) That I was right but the way I went about it was a bit harsh.  Things here are getting a bit testy perhaps we should take a step back.  Lion I would encourage you to not block anyone.  Even if you don't like someone who knows when they might post something that will have a great impact on you?  Others, perhaps we could be a bit sensitive to the fact lion is hurting right now.  As for radar...  what is right and what is real are often times two different things.  Is it right for a college coach to pass judgement on a parent who likes to gun pitchers?  Probably not.  But is it a real possibility?   Yup.  And that's why I would probably never take the programs stalker out to my sons tournaments.  You can literally press the button on the pocket radar while it is in your pocket!  No comments here please usually a sweatshirt pocket!  Discrete.  Do about five pitches, return to where you were pull it out and check the history.  I have been a pitching coach far longer than I have been a parent.  I am afraid it is a habit I will not break.  Like anything else its not always what you do or say but how you do or say it!  Time to sing kumbaya (yes I have no idea how to spell that and no I am not going to waste time looking it up!)

P.S. sorry for the long post!

Good post jolietboy.
You obviously know and understand how to use the radar gun as a tool. 

Lion has blocked me because he knows tjat I know he has been here before...so he should know better.  Its not like this is a new topic.   As for who he was its not hard to figure it out..once a  jokester always a jokester.

The thing that jumped out at me, Lion -- was your comment about using the radar gun to share what you're seeing with your son when he's on deck.

 

Most parents, yours truly included, completely cut off all communication with their players (beyond cheering) at the HS level (many, before). It's tough, but IMO, necessary. 

 

 

Do you disagree? If so, help me understand why? Perhaps the coach asked you to do this?

 

But if you agree, help me understand the value of the radar gun?  

       
       
It is really hard!  Sometimes I wish I didn't know anything about baseball (insert wisecrack here I.e. "well that shouldn't be hard...).  My other kids swim.  Wife was a collegiate swimmer.  I know nothing about it.  I get so excited when they win.  Probably make a bit of a fool of myself.  And I just cheer cause thats all I can do.  With baseball and basketball I know every pitfall that can come his way and unfortunately I worry about them all.  Please god just let him get this kid out, please god don't let him strike out - not in this situation.  Oh god don't let him give up the big 3 at the buzzer to lose the game.  Probably going to get yelled at for veering too far off track here...  but its almost sad cause I don't get excited for my baseball player the way I do for the swimmers.  Its almost like when he does well its just a relief.  The negative part of your son being good is when he succeeds its expected so you would look silly celebrating but when he fails you know he is going to feel like he let his team down and your heart aches for him.  So the urge is so strong to try and guide him through every play of every game and protect him from pain.  But sooner or later you have to drop him from the nest - just hope he can fly!

jolietboy,
What you described is probably the norm.  And it has nothing to
do with knowing the pitfalls. Most of us know its angame of failure.
But actually calling out to your son as he is either pitching or standing on deck is basically little league.  Most folks know by the time their son reaches HS its unacceptable.

Dont ever let a scout or a college coach see that either.

Agreed but there are also ways to give cues without being too obvious.  For example if your kid's on the bump and he's got an 0-2 count on his opponent's #3 hitter, yelling "Be smart here, Junior." is a good alternative for "Nothing in the strike zone!".  Or if your kid is the hitter down 0-2, yelling "Shorten up and put it in play." is a good replacement for "You know goshdarn well the duece is coming now, Sonnyboy."

 

But of course if either of those kids is any good at the game they probably won't hear anything that you or anybody else on the outside of the fence tells them.

I am going to repeat myself.
Dont say anything.
You never know who is watching....or listening.

Exactly my thinking from earlier in the thread.  Also completely agree with TPM - don't say anything.  

 

At what point do you cut the umbilical cord and let them stand on their own or let them learn from someone else?

Originally Posted by Back foot slider:

…66 pitches in three innings was not efficient work, and had at least one big inning.  The very next day throwing 22 pitches was also not very efficient, and likely had high stress throws.  So two days in a row with a tally of 88 pitches, with at least a few long innings.....he should be done until next week.

 

You use some trigger words I find very interesting. What do you consider “efficient” pitching and what makes up “high” stress as opposed to “normal” stress?

 

Just to make it easy to see, I do a Pitching Efficiency report. In it I show a lot of events by pitches per. Please see attached.

I used to watch David Robinson, the Admiral -- who knows a thing or two about basketball -- sit in the stands at his sons' basketball games and do nothing but cheer. 

 

Never once did he utter a single word to "help" them.

 

I always figured it was because he knew it wouldn't -- no matter how subtle.

I don't know about your part of the world, but in ironhorse's and my corner of it.... HS HC is not an entry level position. At a large school I coached I had 6 assistants all of which played college or beyond. When I was at a small school, my one asst. played college ball and all 6 HC in my district played college or beyond.  My neighbor high school just hired the local college asst. as HC.

  

I don't feel like many coaches go HS to College or College to HS. I think it is almost two different career paths.

 

And as far as compensation...... I make more than 85-90% of college coaches...

 

Sorry HS baseball in your area is so poor. Come to the Great State.... we would love to have more baseball people here.

Here's an update to the original post...

 

I met with the coach regarding the matter.  We had a professional and cordial conversation.  He said he was wrong about the decision he was about to make and he knows better.  It was the heat of the moment and he lost his cool a bit.  It was an awkward situation for all of us actually. I'm grateful for the conversation as I now have confidence that my kid won't be prodded to head out in a bad situation. 

 

I appreciate many of the comments made here.  What I find interesting is the fine lines which exist between the parent/coach/player relationship.  To the coaches out there...The parent has final say over their kids health and associated risks. Not you and not the player.  You have ZERO final decision authority when it comes to that.  I would hope you're smart enough to look at a kids future and not your win/loss column when you are confronted with the preliminary decision or are acting on the players' behalf.  Also, I think the "man up" comments demonstrate a naivety on the part of so many. I'm glad my son is competitive and doesn't want to take himself out of a game.  Too many kids get used to "being careful" and lose their competitive edge.  That one is on the parent.  It gets to the point where they don't pitch if the humidity isn't perfect. 

 

In my instance, the situation was so obvious. 

Nice post, I agree with much of which you wrote, however, the player HAS to be aware from as early as possible that he has a voice, and that if it doesn't feel right, then you do what you have to do, especially since he has had TJS.  The parent will not always be there to be his voice.  What will you do after HS, do you not think that he will only be in this situation while in HS? Probably not.

I am glad that you and the coach worked it out.

 

I am curious though, I may have missed it, exactly what year is your son in HS?

Hopefully, Florida will have some decent high school baseball someday. Anyway Congrats on your good fortune. I am sure everyone is equally impressed!

Everyone begins somewhere. A former player either HS, college or former pro accepting a HC job at a HS is considered entry level, IMO.

Glad things went well w coach. Seems like everything is moving forward.

"man up" Is usu discussed when people say players should work through injury, adversity, sore muscles, etc.

in you sons case it means he is only one who knows how his body feels, not coaches/parents.  If things don't feel right, he needs to be mature enough to speak up, stop and investigate causes/reasons for pain. 

still wondering if your son is comitted-thought u said he was to a D1.  If so, is there a concern that overdoing it after TJ can cause long term problems which can negatively effect college career?

But what quality programs hire a HC that has never coached, regardless of level of play? Playing baseball and running a program are vastly different things. Doesn't seem like a great hiring strategy to me, and honestly it doesn't happen around here, at least not that I know of. That's where the disagreement lies, I suppose.

I am still waiting for what year is he in?  

What makes a program a better quality than the other? IMO, there really are very few HS programs in the country that are what I may or Dad04 might consider of above average quality regardless if the coach has many years experience or just beginning. 

 

I mean here we have a post about a guy who misused his pitcher, is he from a quality program?  Is he what you would consider a quality coach?   How long has he been coaching?  In the county I live, I believe that  one has to be employed by the County to coach and you will find that many coaches do coach multiple sports.  They also teach.

 

Ironhorse, we both are from Florida, where there are some really excellent programs, good programs,  as well as meh ones too. I think that probably goes for the rest of the country. 

       
       
My last statement and bottom line on the whole entry level thing.  Any coach before hs doesn't count.  They are either parent volunteers or entrepreneurs who run 'elite' programs.  Not saying some of them aren't great coaches but let's stick to people qho are actually paid by schools or professional organizations.  Lets break the levels down here (sorry if I skip a couple) hs freshman, hs jv, hs varsity, juco, D3, NAIA, D2, D1, independ went leagues, foreign professional leagues, rookie ball, low A ball, A ball, Aa ball, AAA ball, MLB.  Then we.could throw in pitching coaches, batting instructors, bench coaches etc.  I would rather be pitching coach at top 25 D1 ABC university than HC at any high school in the world I don't care how good they are.  But.just by my example there are 13 levels above hs varsity and 2 levels below.  High school coaching is entry level stuff I don't care how good you are.  I take pride in what I do.  I am program pitching coach for all levels at out hs.  I study the game.  I am at.the entry level of baseball coaching.  Stop taking it as an insult.  Its just a fact.  I will know if I ever get beyond entry level when the ONLY check I draw is for baseball!

Do you have the pocket radar? Been thinking about making the purchase since the new version came out. I continually hear good reviews about their accuracy.

I see this post has come back so I will update. 

 

After a month not pitching and recuperating my son pitched a 7 inning 2 hit ball game last Tuesday.  

Total 105 pitch count. 

 

Personally I think he should have been limited to 5 innings.   

As of today his shoulder is a bit sore but getting better after that outing. 

 

 

Sorry to ask but if you could explain again what his injury was. That's a lot of pitches for his first game back. 

There are several things going on in this thread.

 

First, the parent is responsible for their child's health.  The trick then is how do you communicate your displeasure and/or be proactive about your child's health?  For me and speaking only for me when I coached, we need to have a conversation person to person.  How could any coach object to this when the topic is a child's health and, in the OPs case, recent surgery?

 

Per my child, I am guilty this last week of sending an email to my daughter's college coach.  I don't know how he took it.  My daughter is sick and has been for 2 weeks.  She now has bronchitis.  When practice ended this past Wednesday, she had to go to a Doctor because she could not breathe.  I sent a simple email telling Coach about what the Doctor said because I know my daughter won't.  Again, a simple email stating what she has and what the Doctor said.  Nothing else.  I know this, nothing can keep her off the field.  I haven't heard back from him but hope he took it in the manner it was intended.

 

Per HS coaches.  I absolutely disagree with some statements in this thread.  We tend to generalize a lot about HS coaches given our experiences in our limited areas.  In my area, I can't think of any 1st year HC that walked into that position without paying their dues as an assistant coach.  I know just about every coach in my area.  I think that this site has HS Head Coaches and former HS Head Coaches that demonstrate the vast knowledge that they have wrt baseball.  To be sure I would have been proud to have my child, if I had a son, play for them.  WRT, the quality of HS ball, man I'm glad I don't live where some of you live.  I coached in a program as an assistant coach that averaged 33 wins a year for 12 years.  A couple of those teams were ranked by USA Today and Collegiate Baseball as the #1 teams in the country.  I'd say that is an outstanding program.  When I left, my program averaged 24 wins a year despite playing a schedule comprised of half of our games against schools twice our size.  We won 4 regional titles in a row, won sectionals as well.  We did not make it to state but then again, we did pretty well.  Not exceptional!  I wish everyone could experience that type of HS baseball but I know that is not the case. 

His injury, according to the PT, was a muscle sprain to the back shoulder muscle.  He was given exercise to keep the muscle strong in that area.  

 

I totally agree.  Until coaches jobs are at risk for making these decisions it will continue. 

       
       
White sox, yes they are very accurate - sort of!  Got to be pretty clise to right behind the catcher.  No more than about five feet off that line.  No idea how to put that into an angle.  Also if you have a real deep backstop its 50/50.  Finally you have to live with some misreads.  First pitch I gunned the other day was 132mph.  And that was a 13u!  Obviously has a future...  at least right up until the next reading of 59 which is about where he stayed.  Do yourself a favor ajd pop the extra c note for the ball coach version.  That will allow continuous mode so you always get top speed or 'out of hand' speed.  I bought mine several years ago so it is the refular versiin.  I have to time pushing that button precisely.  But if I take 10 readings or so I fell like I have a pretty good reading.  And after all it is more of a hobby than anything else so if I am off an mph or so I am not going to wig out over it.  Biggest difference between PR and quality guns is range.  But close up it is pretty dead on.  Go get one, a lot of fun!