Opinion on parent/coach conflict over health

Even though I don't believe in getting involved when it comes to my sons HS baseball experience, I think your situation is different. I would have done the same if it were my son and his health was at stake, especially since you have already been down that road before. Might be a good time to have a discussion with your coach.    

I would always recommend waiting 24 hrs before having a conversation after a conflict. 

Was there  a mtg between u, coach, son discussing his surgery and discussing how he would be brought along this yr on the team?

If not, that's where the problem occured. All for players only talking w coaches, but when medical issue is involved im all  for a mtg w coach and relaying dr/pt info. 

 Was this yelling/conflict w coach in front of everyone? Really bad if it was. Son also needs to learn to speak up. 

Sure you'll  talk and straighten things out. Better communication by both parties needed.

There is always a choice. Sometimes you take the lesser of two evils. It seems like the coach was willing to make your son roll the dice with his short- and long-term health. That's a safety issue. One of the very, very few times a parent should and must intercede on behalf of his/her son. If this all happened real-time in front of everyone, that would be highly unfortunate.

 

I'd recommend not talking with HC one-on-one, or at the very least let the situation cool for a day or two. I'd recommend setting-up a conference meeting with the HS AD or principal in charge of sports, you, and the HC. Make sure you are heard, he has the opportunity as well, and the administrator knows the context and is in a situation to intervene if there is (unfair) retaliation.

Unfortunately your son will have command issues and that is normal after TJS. And being a starter then all of a sudden a reliever is an adjustment for anyone.

 

Regardless, stressful innings are not good, for anyone, not just those after surgery.

 

IMO you have every right to be concerned but at the game was not the time to speak up. There should have been a plan for this season for managing his pitching so there is no setback later on.

 

Also your son has to take responsibility as well.  There is a reason he had TJS, dont repeat it.

 

You need to sit down with him and the coach to discuss, both at the same time. When health issues are involved, don't be afraid to confront but do it the right way.  And its not about just trusting the coach, but your son as well.

 

What year is your son?

Jim T, I applaud you on your intervention! And personally I don’t care who it was in front of because that wasn’t on you, it was on the coach who made a very poor decision.

 

Based on the scenario you described and assuming its accurate (not meant to be offensive, there's just usually 2 sides to any story), you did what you had to do.

 

Now time to sit down with your son and make sure he knows how to stick up for himself and tell the coach he cannot go back into the game at the proper time.

First off my guy has never had surgury.I am just not sure how I would react with that being a part of things.I compliment you with this only being a verbal thing.I go thru this with my 2016 way too much.From MY point of view I put alot of this on our sons.They have to learn to speak up for themselves.Sounds to me like  our guys both were instilled with some of the same things.Leave it all on the field and listen to your coaches.Unfortunatly with what is starting to be understood with P.C thats not always the best thing.Whats the coach like with the other pitchers? feel free to PM.  

For future reference for anyone else.  Have this conversation BEFORE the season.  I will always discuss with a coach their philosophy on limitations before the season.  My son's travel coach knows the limits (not dictated by me but a number we agreed upon mutually) and we haven't played our first game yet. Now if he goes beyond those limits I have every right to intercede because we have an agreement.  Even though you missed your opportunity to do this before the season you need to have that same conversation now.  Never feel bad about protecting your son's health.  And one more note on this.  I know people are - with good intentions - always saying the player needs to speak for themselves and leave the parent out of it.  But ask yourself what would you have done at that age?  In my day you did exactly what the coach asked with no questions.  I know times have changed some but confrontation even when it is done in a nice way is still very tough for a lot of kids.  Plus kids think they are invincible.   They will take the ball for 200 pitches cause 'they are a man'.  Protect your kids health.

It is quite obvious the coach is not very savvy as it relates to pitch counts, or arm health.  There is no correlation between 85 pitches through 7 innings, and 68 pitches through 2.  It is not necessarily the number of throws, however it is the number of high stress throws.  A 24 pitch inning, followed by a 44 pitch inning is the poster child for "HIGH STRESS" throws. 

 

I just witnessed this exact same thing last week at son's HS game, with a promising LHP on the opponent side, and it took every ounce of restrain for me not to walk over the the opposing dugout and have a "talk" with their coach.  I did not, and still wonder if I did the right thing.  Son was pitching that game, and was having very efficient (low pitch count innings) which made it worse for the opposing pitcher.  He'd throw 30+ pitches, then have to roll back out there after a 10-12 pitch 3 up 3 down.

 

High pitch count innings, especially 40+ means you have runners on base, which makes for even higher stress throws.  Add all of this to the fact that he is coming off of TJ, I would intervene.  As others stated, should have been a conversation you had before, and certainly should have now!

I agree that these issues should be handled prior to the season between the coach, parent, player and doctors. 

 

IMO, gather up all the medical bills for the surgery and rehab.  Give them to the coach and tell him the next one is on his dime.  You and your kid have been thru a lot both emotionally and financially.  Good luck. 

I am sure if someone walked into your place of business and yelled at you in front of a group of people you would have been upset as well.  I am not sure why OP and coach never had this conversation prior to the season happening.  As a parent you have ever right to be upset, however, you handled it in a very unprofessional way in belittling him in the middle of the game.  However, I also believe that the coach should have never even considered putting him in after 44 pitches in an inning.  I have never rolled a kid back onto a mound if he threw 30 pitches in an inning.  I believe both parties to be in the wrong for creating this situation.

Nothing good happens after or during a 30 pitch inning. Neither to the game score itself or to the health of the pitcher.

There is a reason it should come from the player. Well there are many reasons. Should the player have to? No. Should a coach no better? Yes. By the time a player reaches the HS ranks he needs to be taught how to handle his business. Sometimes that means keeping his mouth shut and taking it. Sometimes that means speaking up for himself and standing his ground. And all the time that means he should do it in a respectful manner. It doesn't matter if the coach is a clown or not. That should not determine how you handle the situation. It just means your going to have to handle some situations.

 

 I can certainly understand your anger and your emotions in a situation like this. It should not have to be dealt with because it shouldn't happen. Yes ball players are warrior's. We teach them to be warrior's. We want them to want the ball. We want them to say I got this. But at the same time they need to know how to stand up for themselves in situations. "Coach I want to keep going. I want to battle it out. But I'm done. You know I am coming off TJ and just threw a ton of pitches. For the sake of the team I need to hand it off to someone else."

 

The coach can handle it anyway he wants to after that. But at least he knows that he can't do that to him. Maybe it will jar him into reality? Maybe it will make him think about how stupid he was? But regardless he will know that your son won't be that guy. And now you won't find yourself in a situation like you are in. Again I understand your reaction. You had every right to be ticked off. Just a suggestion.

I didn't read where the OP yelled at the coach.

While I am in 100% agreement they should have talked.Would part of that conversation have  been "if my kid throws 44 pitches in an inning please take him out"I think alot of times alot of us parents figure there will be a certain amount of professionalism. Involved with how our young pitchers are handled.We as parents of pitchers assume too much.A big part of this problem is the schools involved.When was the last time you had to go to school and tell the math teacher they have no clue when it comes to long division?Of any thing that has to do with HSBB the one thing any parent should NOT EVER have to talk about is overusing/ too many pitches.In reality its about the only thing a coach/team can control.I read all the time.take care of what you can control.Don't sweat the rest.

The conversation was had prior to the season. No offense taken from prior comments.  In an ideal world, my son would have told him no but it's not about him speaking up for himself. Like many competitive kids, he won't admit he's too tired or doesn't have it. The coach should not rely on the kid to be honest about that. Major league and college coaches don't leave it up to the pitcher in most cases.

The yelling occurred because he was trying to force a bad decision and rationalize it. I was less upset about the exchange last night. My son agreed when he got home that he should have come out when he did. He had no idea he threw many pitches. I'm more concerned that he will disregard counts when I'm not there.

First of all, a conversation prior to the season regarding a pitcher pitching 68 pitches in 2 innings should not have to take place.  The HC is a complete idiot, especially when you factor in that the kid just had Tommy John.  That is on him completely. 

 

However, yelling at him through the crowd was probably not the best choice.  I would have gone to the dugout and spoke to him about it, and I wouldn't give 2 @%&*#+ if he got mad about it.  The safety of my son is imperative, and I don't care how anyone else feels about it.  A meeting with the HC, AD, and Principal is in order.  This guy is a moron.

       
       
If you have already had the conversation and he is blowing through the stop sign then he is 100% in the wrong.  And while it may be justified for you to yell at him from the stands you would make yourself look a lot better going to the dugout and handling it quietly.  My dad was living proof that you could be just as forceful in a low tone as yelling.  Of course his popeye forearms also spoke rather loudly!

Dont compare this situation to what goes on after HS.
What year is your son ....second request.

High school is entry level coaching. Some work out, some don't.

 

* Stick to your guns.

* Make sure your son knows he is also responsible for his health.

* Don't be afraid to advocate for your son's health.

 

We had a similar (huge pitch count) situation senior year that ended with the new head coach looking for another gig. He had five more jobs in five years before losing his last job (opening day) for spiking the Gatorade with Creatine. True story.

 

http://jacksonville.com/sports...ball_coach_dismissed

Sorry.  2016

dont agree w getting AD or principal involved at this time. Have a mtg w coach and get on same page, son should be there too! as well as assist coaches.

State expectations based on medical facts. Tell son he has to man up and not say he wants to keep pitching and speak up if he's tired or feels any pain. Discuss pitch limits and best way to move forward. 

Agree w TPM that son will be rusty for awhile. You said he Pitched 85 already this season in 7 innings. Now your upset over 68?  was he tired, or frustrated over his performance? We're you noticing his mechanics changing? Did he pitch well in 85 pitch game?  

Give situation one more try before going over his head to administration. 

You must not have read the post correctly.  Do you think 68 pitches in two innings (24 & 44) is less stressful than 85 over 7 innings?  So if a MLB guy is limited to 110 would you think it's ok to do it all in 1, 2 or 3 innings? 

 

It's not about "manning up".  You have no idea what you're talking about.  The medical conversation happened a long time ago.  One commenter had it right that you would not have a conversation around a scenario where he throws 68 pitches in two innings then heads back out again.  Why would that even enter the realm of possibility? 

 

Don't intend to do anything other than speak to the coach who still has not returned by call.   

If I'm remembering correctly, your son is also a position player who swings a big bat, looking to go major D1. Is that as a position player or a pitcher? If he wants to go the position route, then it seems you would have the option of shutting him down this spring as a pitcher. The spring season isn't a big time for college recruiting anyway.  This summer is so critical, getting him in the best position for a great summer should be a top priority. Just a thought.

 

Good luck to him. Great that his recovery from TJ is going well.

Based on the information given by the OP, getting the AD/Principal involved is warranted.  One, he won't return phone calls,and two, it is a health/safety issue.  44 Pitches in one inning, and 68 in two is a heck of a lot of pitches for a fully healthy, young man. One coming off of Tommy John??

U did not read my post correctly. Manning up has to do w son telling coach if he's tired or arm hurts and not going out again. Not saying he should have. Assume he didn't and another P went in for last 3 outs.

If I were coach he would not have gone 44.  I was just asking how his location was as a starter since his return from surgery. 

If you were worried about the 44 , 68 total you should have walked over and checked on him, not get into shouting match w coach across field. our coach,never allows parents near dugout, but would if it's a health issue. 

Hope it all works out for your sons arm

This is a very tough situation. Being in your shoes, I would have probably done something similar. TJ surgery and recovery seems to be no joke and when a kid's health is involved someone has to stand up for him. That said, I'm curious if your kid simply could have just said, "coach, I've stretched it and got nothing left."  

I really do appreciate all of the comments about the coach being a moron. What I'd be interested to know is what this player's pitching load looked like prior to surgery. Dr. Andrews has stated multiple times that the "epidemic" in professional baseball is due to the younger ages, NOT professional baseball. I have a feeling this situation is much the same. Would all of you flat-out calling the coach a moron also call the parents a moron???

The problem is the coach holds the cards to the player's future. I've seen coaches take it out on players when the parent showed them up publicly. Get pissed and leave the program? Sure. It means sitting out a year. To approach the coach is in the best interest of the kid. To "confront" the coach in front of others is not wise. And regardless of the subject It's not very mature and level headed.

 

OP: Keep in mind the poster who told says you did the right thing has never coached at any level. He has no experience on how a coach feels to get showed up in front of his team and parents. He has no idea how the coach holds the power card in these confrontations.

 

I agree with those who say a plan for how he would be used in his comeback from surgery should have been developed before the season. When he hits pitch X he's out of the game.

Bulldog,

 

I don't know if I'd call the parents a "moron" or not....likely not.  I am not sure Dr. Andrews "said" that these injuries are due to youth baseball....he said they might be.  He also said, that at the end of the day, there are pitchers who have never been over pitched, never threw curveballs prior to maturity, and still have TJS.  There are some (Dr. Andrews included) who have indicated that the UCL may have a finite amount of stressful throws at high velocity that will result in a tear (genetics). 

 

If you believe overuse, or a predetermined number of "bullets" in the gun could result in TJ, then this coach jeopardized both.  He is the "expert", the parents should commit to becoming knowledgeable, however that is the job of the coach.  68 pitches in 2 innings is just flat out inexcusable.

       
       
If there was sufficient evidence to show the parents acted irresponsibly during his youth years I just might.  But the.coach is supposed to know better it is his J O B!

My son had a high school coach were the next thing he learned about pitching would be the first thing he learned. There wasn't a pitching coach when my son's varsity career started (soph year). 

 

My son was a reliever. He could come in and throw hard strikes. He often had to do it coming from his field position. The coach never put him on the mound to start an inning. He always waited until the barn was on fire. Every pitch was a stress pitch.

 

On day in 20 something degree windchill the coach came to the mound and handed the ball to my son. My son handed it back. My son told him he would be happy to leave the game for one hitter, warm up and return to the game. But he needed time to do his blood flow and stretching exercises and throw a few pitches on the sidelines. My son was able to say this to the coach because I had a conversation with my son on things you do and don't do as a pitcher. Before the season he told the coach if it's possible he's going to the mound tell him between innings so he can get loose. It didn't happen this day. He was never told it might be possible he would pitch.

 

The coach gave him a dirty look and gave the ball back to the pitcher. He didn't have much to say to my son for a few days. There were also other short term consequences. He sat him for a game for not being a team player. But the coach got over it.

Backfoot should have read your post first...  you said what I said only a lot better!

Crying over spilled milk now.  You don't' have control over the coach and you made your best effort to discuss the issue.  Now, have the conversation with your son and make sure he has that conversation with the coach.  IOWs, have him talk to the coach and point out that he is not out of the woods yet, will walk a lot of hitters, will hard charge as best he can but needs the coach to understand that he can't stand out there and just throw.  He can assure the coach that at some point this season, with hard work and good restraint on his pitching, he will be able to get back to where he once was or even better.  However, that is a road to recover and he is not at the destination. 

You are right.  I am making a logical guess based on the fact that the only way I would hear a parent say something like that is if they yelled it.

Who ever posts something like this and believes it is a Jack Hole.  Some of the greatest baseball coaches I have ever been around are HS baseball coaches.  In every work place there are bad examples of professionals. 

You ve also posted in past that your son has committed .  Is that still happening and if so what has college coach said, if anything, about you son having had TJ and getting back into pitching. Was he recruited as P ? 
I still say don't go over his head until u speak w him and it more than likely will get better after that.
I agree w others he can  take it out on your son. If he's yelling at parents during game sounds like he has a short fuse. Also curious if scorekeeper who alerted coach to sons  pitch count did so privately or yelled that out for all to hear. Coach could have taken that in negative way.

       
       
No need for name calling or to be so defensive.  The poster is correct for the most part.  I have coached with and for many great hs coaches.  Many IHSA hall of fame coaches.  In fact a recent inductee is someone I coached once upon a time.  I would like to think I have studied my craft and know the game pretty well.  But (yes there is a but) I first started coaching baseball cause I was told they needed another coach.  I was really only concerned about basketball when I first started teaching.  I was a baseball fan and was probably at the level of a lot of youth parent coaches - knew just enough to be dangerous.  From there its a choice, do you take pride in what you do and learn or do you just take up space.  Now keep in mind my first hs baseball coaching assignment was at a state championship level program.  Imagine the 'coaches' they have to drag out for  lesser programs.  And yes I have seen idiots even at the varsity level.  For assistant spots where I coach they get almost no applicants.  Some go on to be great coaches and I agree with you some of the great ones are no doubt as good as any D1 or even mlb coaches/managers and I say that with confidence.   But that is not the majority and hs coaching is rather entry level.