I used to hunt squirrels with hard green walnuts in the off season. Skip rocks all day long, go to my practice, and to my brother's, every pick up game I could find. I would play with guy's I didn't know. Shag balls all day long and just to swing the bat a few times. it was different back then that's for sure.
Doc...did ya spin the walnuts so they couldn't hide on the back side of the trees?
I used to hunt squirrels with hard green walnuts in the off season. Skip rocks all day long, go to my practice, and to my brother's, every pick up game I could find. I would play with guy's I didn't know. Shag balls all day long and just to swing the bat a few times. it was different back then that's for sure.
Doc...did ya spin the walnuts so they couldn't hide on the back side of the trees?
Ha! That's a good one, I think I would play it off the Sycamore.
PG .... The younger the kids the dumber the coaching?
Several years ago one of my LL coaches returned from the mound saying his pitcher son was feeling a piercing pain in his elbow. He wanted to know how much longer he should pitch. I looked at him incredulously and said, "Go back and get him NOW! Don't let him throw for two weeks. If it still hurts see a doctor. Stop letting him throw curves until he can throw it prooerly. He throws it wrong." The guy told people I overreacted.
Two other kids from our LL missed seasons due to arm problems it wasn't hard to see coming? One was bad overall mechanics. One was bad mechanics on the curve and throwing a lotof them. But in both those cases I was told to mind my own business.
I would say less than half the teams in our LL had coaches who knew much about pitching and arm safety. But you couldn't tell anyone anything because the league was successful in all stars.
Luv baseball,
I agree that in the younger age groups more often than not a parent will be coaching.
However, in the level we are most involved in, you very seldom see a parent coaching. In most cases the better organizations have very good baseball people in charge. This does not eliminate The potential for arm injury, but it does lower the risk.
PGS - I got it and I know it is in your best interest not to abuse these players or they will go elsewhere. Please note that I qualify my post with Dad's doing the coaching up to HS. After than everything changes and the Dad's become spectators. Which is an entirely different thread....we shouldn't start. 
There are statistics indicating that the prevalence of TJ in MLB is far, far higher for U.S.-born pitchers than for Carribbean pitchers.
If this were a teenage question, you might attribute that to the inability of Latin players to pay for the surgery. But in MLB, cost is equal for both groups, i.e.., covered by the CBA plan.
I think if you were to visit, e.g., the Dominican Republic, you would not see all this concern about year-round baseball or the amount of throwing. In the past, I read stories about Andruw Jones, who grew up in Curacao, where young children don't go to school and basically hang around a sandlot playing all day without shoes and using re-formed milk cartons for gloves.
What I would respectfully suggest that this shows is that, far from being over used, American pitchers are not throwing enough at a young age. Or, perhaps there is too much emphasis on pitching and not enough on just throwing, that is, working on the basic mechanics and developing strength, stamina and endurance.
When I was a kid you used to be able to get rubber-coated baseballs -- not like the "squooshy" molded rubber things you get now, but practice balls that were hard but coated for durability. I used to go in my backyard and throw it against the brick wall of my house just to pass the time. I usually threw 500 times on any day when it wasn't pouring down rain or frozen outside. On occasion I would test myself to see how many throws I could get in. I threw 2,000 times on numerous occasions. And I never once in my life had any sort of arm injury.
It's just one man's opinion, but I think there is too much, too soon in terms of working on high velocity throwing, and not enough emphasis on just throwing for mechanics and durability these days. It seems to me the best approach is to build the foundation first and then move on to the higher performance levels. So if travel ball is to be blamed, perhaps the problem is at the pre-HS age levels where the strong kid is throwing off a mound once a week for 100 pitches, resting his arm the rest of the week, and not doing enough just plain THROWING.
I agree. Kids throw too little and pitch too much. TR turned into a byline "Today's kids don't throw enough"
A kid can be a starting pitcher from 9u to 17u now. That's a lot of mileage on the arm during heavy growth years. We didn't get to pitch until we were eleven and/or twelve in a short LL season.
Is it really over use of young pitchers, or the fact that today's athletes are Bigger, Stronger, & Faster....and with that, we've seen a dramatic increase in the past few years of TJ, ACL, and several other surgeries centered around the upper echelon athletes.
This thread hits close to home, as 24/7son is nearly 21 months post-op TJ surgery and still dealing with elbow issues to this day. Quite frankly, it's depressing...not only for my son (he's worked extremely hard), but also for my wife and I, as we witness the struggles to get his arm back to 100%.
As a youth coach that worked directly with pitchers in Rec & Travel-ball, I had implemented pitch counts for my players well before they were enforced in Pony/Little League. Did we stray away at times? yes...but for the most part we did our best to protect the kids. In addition, my son played Rec/Travel basketball and cross-trained in Plyometrics from age 14 up.
So...why would a kid that played other sports, cross-trained, had a relatively strict pitch count, good mechanics, and sufficient rest (from throwing) have arm problems? Could it be as simple as genetics? Yours truly had a bad elbow that likely would have required surgery years ago. Just dumb luck? I wish I knew the answers.
PG - I know you'll take this in the spirit it's intended, because you always do:
The reason Perfect Game is mentioned in many of these articles is obvious: It's the No.1 program of its kind. Any writer researching amateur baseball will find PG, and of course, for the most part, you want them to. You also want them to know that you play a major role in identifying pro-level talent:
You're the big target, my friend -- and it just comes with the territory. (I do PR/communications at the nation's largest telecom; believe me -- been there.)
What does surprise me, though, is that here, you're walking back the very things that define your brand. Speaking of MLBers who've had TJ since 2008, you say:
... of those 250, about 35 participated in PG showcases or tournaments.
If I were the exec overseeing PG's brand and reputation, I'd gather the leadership team together soon -- and get aligned on messaging, given this new challenge.
Because one thing you can count on: It's only going to get more challenging.
I agree. Kids throw too little and pitch too much. TR turned into a byline "Today's kids don't throw enough"
A kid can be a starting pitcher from 9u to 17u now. That's a lot of mileage on the arm during heavy growth years. We didn't get to pitch until we were eleven and/or twelve in a short LL season.
I probably am not qualified enough to post in this topic as my son does not pitch (yet) but the comment above got me to post.
My neighbor an older gentleman apparently was a scout for the Royals back before he retired, the guy is at every baseball game played here and on other islands quite often and we talk enough that i value his opinion.
That being said he comments all the time about kids not throwing enough and pitching too much. I had to build a cage in my backyard since we have none here so he can see my son pretty much everyday hitting and such. he has made it clear to us for 2 years now that my sons career if he wishes to continue is being a pitcher based on what he has seen during his games and his body type, he follows that comment up with do not let his current coaches get a hold of him to pitch, wait until the next level if it happens.
Odd comment to make about not pitching until next level but he lives by and says others that are still in the business also appreciate it now.
I think looking at players who have had tommy john / labrum tears and then looking at their data, what they did isn't a complete picture. Researchers need to know what everyone did.
I've posted this before, if your son is a pitcher, keep track of what he does, innings, pitches, dates, and all the anecdotals (long toss, breaking balls, ice, whatever you can think of). At worst, it will help know your sons work load, at best it will benefit the game later.
jp,
Not sure I always get my point across when writing. I did mention the 35 of 250
reported TJ surgeries. I thought I also mentioned that in that same time period nearly 300 former PG participants have pitched in the Major leagues and thousands in the minor leagues.
Point being is that out of all those pitchers that had TJ surgery only 35 or so out of thousands is a very low percentage compared to the 30+% of current MLB pitchers.
So the actual numbers show that the PG participants that are now pitching in the Big Leagues is much lower than the over all percentages, and for sure a lot lower than the those who never attended a PG event.
This could just be blind luck, I don't know. I can't tell people that if they attend a PG event they are much more likely to stay healthy. But what I can tell people is that some of those making the accusations have no idea what they are talking about. I give Doc Andrews leeway, he has studied this and done research. Obviously not enough research when it comes to who to blame. The others simply spout off without checking any facts. But it all sounds factual to the reader.
This is why I'm not paid to crunch numbers.
That said PG, I do hope your organization, at a minimum, develops clear messaging that reporters who write about this will be compelled to include in their pieces that mention PG.
Did you say somewhere you were commissioning a study? THAT would be ideal (Just as it would be ideal if reporters who intend to mention PG in an article would reach out to you first, for comment -- which doesn't appear to be happening).
Being the big boy on the block, though, PG has a lot of clout -- and could probably influence the dialogue on this if you wanted to. Parents of younger pitchers need information -- and even though it appears the science is unsettled, PG could still help.
Thanks jp! I appreciate your thoughts and suggestions. It would probably be more productive to post our thoughts on our own website. But lots of the people that participate here have experienced a lot. They are not easily fooled by words, be it my words or someone else.
Over the years I have benefitted greatly from listening to what people have said on this website. There is a lot of "been there, done that" people here.
We are far from perfect, but I'm not going to sit around and read a bunch of BS that just isn't true. My skin has grown thicker, I'm too old to fight, but not so old that I don't even care what people say.
I would even go along with PG being part of the problem. After all, everyone in baseball is part of the problem.
My hope is that someone, some day, figures out the ultimate exercise regimen to strengthen all the muscles/tendons/ligaments or whatever is involved in supporting the force applied to that ligament.
There are several problems with the logic involved in the basic argument. The latest arguments always begin with the premises that arm injuries in MLB have increased. The basis of this argument is the undeniable fact that more TJ surgeries are being performed. However, from a logic standpoint, that fact only proves that TJ surgeries are on the rise. It doesn't take into account the possibility that injury rates remain stable while the option of TJ surgery has become more often chosen as the first option. Could it simply be that more teams are choosing TJ surgery earlier in the injury analysis process than they used to? A more convincing argument would attempt to show me actual injury rates (perhaps use of the DL).
The second thing that has no support is the argument that increased velocity is a culprit. Yet, no one making this argument does a good job. They simply use an overall increase in velocity league-wide and try to make a connection. A happens and B is true, therefore B must cause A. Doesn't work that way. It should be easy enough to show me that pitchers throwwing, for example, average fastballs over 95mph are far more likely to be on the DL than pitchers throwing under 95. that would be a convincing argument.
To make a similar argument, I could say that the use of long toss as a training tool has increased over the past 10 years and then contend that long toss is the culprit. It might even be true, but it certainly doesn't make a sound argument. however, if I could show you 30 major-leaguers who have used long toss as a substantial part of their conditioning program for at least five years and then show you 30 pitchers who DO NOT use long toss, then we could make a usable comparison. Other than that, these arguments are a lot of useless conjecture.
Update on this:
For those who have not seen this article by Kyle Bodey from Driveline. (who posts here often)
Debunking a lot of what was written in the TJ article. (Including defending PG)
Long but informative, thanks for posting.
The thing that jumps out at me, is about taking responsibility. If the pitcher is young, it is the parents responsibility to do as much research as possible, not to assume that some youth coach knows about how to properly warm up and how to manage a pitcher.
This is why I just can't understand why if a parent or a player has an issue with any method that is being done, has no right to question the coaches authority? Its not that coach who will be left with the mess later on, but you and your son.
Originally Posted by TPM:
…This is why I just can't understand why if a parent or a player has an issue with any method that is being done, has no right to question the coaches authority? …
The why is simple. TRADITION coupled with some coaches believing when they give up any amount of control or won’t accept they are in authority but don’t have the same responsibility as parents, they’ve somehow given up their manhood..
The biggest thing our coaches get upset with is when the "personal trainer" or the "travel ball coach" tells the parents that this or that needs to be done. Then the parent comes and tells the high school coach that. And when that information is false, that's a major problem. But because the person that parent is paying said it, then it must be true. I have on multiple occasions gotten phone calls from my coaches because "personal trainer A" says that a baseball player shouldn't do any bench press whatsoever. Or whatever the baseball coaches world believes. And most of the time, I can show research and expert opinions that contradict that. But again, because the paid individual said it, it must be true.
I went to a HS game last night for the first time in a while and one of the starting pitchers threw 149 pitches. To me this is insane and at the root of the problem. We have always said here "don't be that HS parent that interferes" but I can tell you that the next day I would be having a one on one meeting with that coach and outlining what I considered to be an acceptable pitch count for my son.
I went to a HS game last night for the first time in a while and one of the starting pitchers threw 149 pitches. To me this is insane and at the root of the problem. We have always said here "don't be that HS parent that interferes" but I can tell you that the next day I would be having a one on one meeting with that coach and outlining what I considered to be an acceptable pitch count for my son.
That is unacceptable. There is NO reason any pitcher should be throwing 149 pitches in an outing. Yes, I agree. The next day there should be a conversation had!
Perhaps the most accurate article I have read about the subject So far.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_...-tommy-john-epidemic
Another one? I hope all is good but... same old story.
Looks like it's definite that he needs surgery. Most exciting pitcher to watch in baseball, in my opinion. Tough one to swallow as a fan. Here's to hoping for a smooth recovery.
Its worth considering for sure, but MLB looks at it as young pitchers only having a certain amount of pitches in them before tj or something else happens so get what you could get out of them before it does happen.
http://www.prosourceathletics....ng-process-is-wrong/
Here is a different point of view. I tend to agree with this one.
Its worth considering for sure, but MLB looks at it as young pitchers only having a certain amount of pitches in them before tj or something else happens so get what you could get out of them before it does happen.
TPM- Age of debut is cyclical…we've had a lot of great young talents in recent past. I don't think it's a trend. Also, there hasn't been any type of correlation found with regards to your question. Stress on the arm is the same wherever a pitcher is throwing. The majority of injuries of this type stem from overuse at the younger levels (as this thread is aptly named) or a mechanical issue.
shortnquick- That's simply not true.
shortnquick- I should rephrase that rather curt response. There is a financial aspect to organizational philosophy of treatment of prospects. That doesn't have anything to do with impending injury, though.
I went to a HS game last night for the first time in a while and one of the starting pitchers threw 149 pitches. To me this is insane and at the root of the problem. We have always said here "don't be that HS parent that interferes" but I can tell you that the next day I would be having a one on one meeting with that coach and outlining what I considered to be an acceptable pitch count for my son.
That is unacceptable. There is NO reason any pitcher should be throwing 149 pitches in an outing. Yes, I agree. The next day there should be a conversation had!
When my son was a HS freshman in the state tournament they needed to win one of two to advance to the championship game. Our opponent brought in a senior pitcher in the fourth inning of game one. He ended up winning game one and after a 45 minute between game delay, threw all of game two. A total of 17X pitches. I want to say 176 but I know the first two numbers were 17.
My son is now a college sophomore. The opposing pitcher is a college RS Jr.They were three years apart and are now one year apart. I was watching the game on TV where he had the elbow blow up when my son was a HS sophomore and the opposing pitcher was a college freshman.
Did the two events have anything to do with each other? Nobody knows. The fact is, nobody really knows why this injury happens.
My own son came out of a game this spring with "piercing elbow pain" as described by the media. Luckily it was a knot in his bicep that proved to be nothing (other than a painful session with the message therapist).
My daughter is (was as of two weeks ago) a softball pitcher. "They can go forever" is what we always heard. A good friend and PHD in physical therapy told me last year that long term studies of softball pitchers are showing all kinds of shoulder / elbow problems later in life. I have no medical reference, but his advice to me was to put her on baseball pitch counts until more is learned. They have no meaningful professional leagues, so the sample size for study is way smaller than baseball so we won't know for years and that is only if somebody studies it.
At least in baseball, people are starting to put together studies and hopefully we'll all figure out what the best approach is.
Maybe my gradchildren will benefit...
Did anyone catch the MLB special a few days ago "The Pitching Delimma" - on Tommy John Surgery? I taped and watched last night - thought it was very good. Its not like it solved the issue but lots of good viewpoints.
On the panel - Tom House-John Smoltz-Jim Kotz - Tom Verducci - Dr -(can't remember his name but has performed thousands of TJ surgeries) but also had interview with Dr. James Andrews - and Bob Costas hosted the panel.
Main points I took away is that there is a difference in pitching and throwing. OK to throw daily - not OK to pitch from a mound. Kotz was saying he used to throw every day - especially after a long outing on the mound - he was just throwing - not pitching.
2nd main point I took away was - year around baseball is not a good thing.
The 3rd point I took away is that there is a disconnect between strength/conditioning coaches and the medical trainer. The medical trainer should be heavily involved in developing programs - especially for pitchers (not just talking about injured players but all players). The reason why many pitcher come back stronger after TJ surgery is not because of the surgery - its because of the well developed rehab program developed by medical profession and the hard work put in by the players.
Until pitch counts and appearances are tracked from the time a pitcher first pitches no one is going to be able to provide a correct answer. My guess is it's all the pitching some kids do on travel teams (not because it's travel/because the coach and parents are ignorant) from ages 9-14 when they are growing the most and the most vulnerable to growth plate and associated tendon and muscle issues.
Travel isn't the problem. Travel just provides the avenue for abuse when combined with coaches and parents who aren't concerned with arm health. A kid can now be in a weekly pitching rotation for several months from 9u to 17u. When I was a kid we had LL. We pitched once a week for two and a half months. Typically only 11 and 12yo's pitched.
Blaming travel for arm problems would be like claiming it's silverware's fault people are fat.
All true probably. So how do you dis-encourage parents from buying into the year-round baseball that is so prevalent and so often 'hyped' (including on this site) and almost surely adds a lot of pitches onto young arms at earlier and earlier ages?
Just watching pregame talk before Rangers game, and they were talking to Steve Busby about Martin Perez and his potential TJ, as well as the announcement regarding the Marlins phenom about to go under the knife. His reply as to why we are seeing this more often, was due to the love affair with blowing up the radar. He mentioned when he pitched for the Royals, very few threw consistent in the 90's, and those who didn't learned to pitch, change speed, hit location, etc., and were successful. He said now, you know you won't get a look unless you throw in the 90s. He indicated with all the instruction on mechanics, along with the level of baseball specific conditioning available, you should see less TJ.
Hisfinal comments were, "while you have more pitchers eclipsing 90, very few are MEANT to throw 90". Could be true. Radar guns just may be the enemy, although Tommy John himself was not known as a power pitcher, so who really knows!
Just watching pregame talk before Rangers game, and they were talking to Steve Busby about Martin Perez and his potential TJ, as well as the announcement regarding the Marlins phenom about to go under the knife. His reply as to why we are seeing this more often, was due to the love affair with blowing up the radar. He mentioned when he pitched for the Royals, very few threw consistent in the 90's, and those who didn't learned to pitch, change speed, hit location, etc., and were successful. He said now, you know you won't get a look unless you throw in the 90s. He indicated with all the instruction on mechanics, along with the level of baseball specific conditioning available, you should see less TJ.
Hisfinal comments were, "while you have more pitchers eclipsing 90, very few are MEANT to throw 90". Could be true. Radar guns just may be the enemy, although Tommy John himself was not known as a power pitcher, so who really knows!
Human anatomy isn't supposed to be perfect, I would suspect that the 90+ v might be the difference maker in these cases, most likely God didn't give them a perfect UCL in the first place.
Point well taken. When my daughter saw the stipend they were paid, she decided college, graduate school and (God willing) medical school were worth more than the $2,500-$5,000 those girls were getting paid.
Plus, dad pays all those college fees, so those don't cost anything. 
In a topic that won't go away....
The abuse of youth sports. If we're not careful, it may kill youth sports.
This writer interviewed me for over an hour. He only used a couple quotes. Not even the best ones IMO.
