PG Staff question

PGStaff, left a PM for you

Thanks..

I admit not knowing much about PG which is evident in my post but is there a cost involved for players to be rated/ranked by PG?There is a cost to individuals to attend the showcase events. Player evaluation/grade is only given at Showcase events in most cases. There is no cost to players that are ranked because it is not mandatory for them to attend anything. Same goes for players we select for things like the Rawlings Preseason All American honors. There is no cost (ever) or any mandatory events to attend, for a talented player to be ranked, recognized or honored. That said there's the obvious advantage in being seen a lot by those who make the decisions. Just like everyone in the scouting community, the more we see someone the more accurate we can evaluate.


Are rankings only derived from PG events and showcases and if so who are the people who make these determinations?
No, but nearly 80% of all those drafted attend these events. We rank players who have never attended a PG event. Our staff determines the rankings. That staff involves a very large number of people who have a strong background in scouting and recruiting. It has become increasingly obvious that others who rank players use our lists heavily... Pretty much same players, moved around slightly.

How important is it to be ranked in as far as being recruited by D1 colleges?
It can be very important, but certainly not absolutely necessary. Being identified by DI recruiters is probably the most important thing. Don't have to be ranked in order to be identified.

More so, what are chances of a kid being recruited without a PG ranking?
Excellent if he is an outstanding player and is known by recruiters. There are a few early DI commitments that we do not have a file on. Also, it is true that it only takes one to like a player for that player to be recruited or drafted.

2bmom,

If I had time, I'd love to answer all questions with complete honesty. Sometimes what appears to be a very simple question ends up requiring a very long answer. Still I know that people might be interested in those things, so we should answer questions.

The answer to your question is...

It's a definite Maybe!

Really! the more we (or anyone else) can see a player the more accurate we can evaluate. Everything we see, within reason, is recorded and becomes part of a players "history". So, I guess the simple answer to your question would be "Yes" everything we see would have an affect on our opinion. However, we lean heavy towards projection when grading a player. So if we were 100% correct the first time, that player would end up with the same grade he received the first time. Obviously we are not always correct, sometimes players improve more than we projected. Sometimes players don't improve at all and actually end up below what we first graded. When this happens, we can't go back and lower our initial grade, so that player might end up graded higher than our final opinion.

It is more complex than what some might think. We take these things very seriously. We want to be 100% correct. We are still wrong at times! Knowing that we have been wrong before probably causes us to grade a bit higher at times. If we are going to make a mistake, we would rather make that mistake because we over rated a player rather than under rated a player.

PG Staff great replies and very helpful. Seems not only PG showcases but most can get quite expensive or add up quickly.

I especially like and agree with you and will add:
"It only takes one to get it done."

samiam,

To be honest, when my kids were in high school, there was no way we could afford to do all these things. So I understand completely.

Then again, it is important to do something. Perfect Game is not the answer for everyone. Luckily, there are some other options. There are even some options that include involvement with us. However, we can only help those who have talent. It is impossible to get a kid without sufficient talent "true" interest from a college or MLB scout. On the other hand, if a kid has the talent, we can help a lot. Just the way it is!

This is 'hidden gem' of a thread IMO. Great answers PG!

On the cost issue, all I can say (going through it a second time right now) is that the 'opportunities' to spend money seems to me to have gone up dramatically...not because of inflation, but because the sheer volume of 'special invites' from all over has to be about 10 times more than just 6 years ago.

Even having gone through 'this' before, I have an incredibly hard time sorting through it all. Whats really important? What really puts you in a position to get some one-on-one time with a coach you like? Which showcases will really have college coaches there? Etc..., etc...

On a somewhat humorous note, one camp invite sent by email addressed to "Dear [INSERT FIRSTNAME]" was easy to discard!

I deleted my post because I put it in another thread, but here is the question that PGStaff answered:

If a player goes to a PG showcase and gets his initial rating, then goes to several PG tournaments and improves throughout the year, does that affect his rating in the next PG showcase?

So now I know...maybe.

quote:

sheer volume of 'special invites'

That is the truth! There is one that sends something by mail once a week. And the other one that calls and says "One of the D1 schools who will be there has asked that you attend." Right.

That's refreshing or disappointing depending on how you look at it.

Thought it was just me feeling like we are dealing with used car salesman with all the "we want you" hints and invites to showcases. BTW, am I being to naive to believe an invite should be free? I sure don't invite people to my place of business (what a college is) and charge them for the visit!

Do any players ever get these invites and NOT pay? Can a college do that or do they have to charge a fee?

And before it is suggested we are paying for the evaluations I have never received a single written evaluation about my son from the numerous ones we have attended. I e-mailed one coach and asked him to tell me about my son's eval and he did. Problem was he provided an eval on a position my son did not even demonstrate for in his clinic???

My pet-peeve specifically deals with college clinics/camps/showcases. When they advertise they signed "x" number of current players from their clinic last year and expect to sign "x" more this year; why don't they list the names of those currently rostered who did in fact, get recruited from previous years clinic/showcase? No harm in stating it if it is the truth yet I have not yet seen it in the many we have been "invited" to.

Add to this, how about after the clinic/camp/showcase is over that your son attended, post on the college team website when the decision has been made, the names of the "X" kids recruited from the same clinic. Again, no harm no foul and what kid or parent would not approve of such a posting? Something like that provides a level of transparency that currently does not exist and IMO, keeps the black-eye aptly on colleges and this deceptive process of promoting openings that perhaps do NOT even exist.

I also am against the non-refundable fees. Due to rain outs and because we had to "hurry before they closed registrations" (another possible gimmick) we were physically unable to be in 2 different places (even states) on same day when one re-scheduled their rain date on a date we had already paid and registered for a different clinic. They want to keep a $25 service fee no problem but $125-$150 is the money we had to eat and it happened more than once!!!

Again, not talking about a kid who just chooses to blow off the clinic but if it can be proven they were at a different one because of a weather conflict then they should not have to eat $$$$. Just my opinions!

I think everyone has to pay to go to a college camp due to NCAA rules. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

Regarding the random stuff you get in the mail that is not a specific university camp, the mom of a player who just signed an NLI with Florida and is ranked a 10 by PG told me this. If they want you to pay, they just want your money.

We will pay the money for 3 this fall/winter. One at UF, because we live here, O'Sullivan is a class act, and they have an excellent hitting istructor. One at another Florida D1 whose coach called 2B's travel coach and said to make sure he is there, and another that 2B's travel coach told us to attend because a couple of D2s are specifically interested. That one is only $50.

So that's how you know.

Yeah, would like the confirmation on whether or not NCAA requires colleges offering these mandate attendees must pay.

Suppose that answer will come up on here eventually.

Agree, there were 1 or 2 we signed up for that were clinics and worth the investment but the majority were just about the money with nothing gained from attending.

Part of the process but I feel some regulations could be implemented to minimize the deceptions and make schools offering clinics more transparent. If not it is sad but true the perception which is too often accepted as reality, IMO cheapens the college baseball recruiting process.

OK, I didn't mean to ignite a 'piling-on' about college camps. Lets not forget, you can learn something too at these camps from excellent instructors. Aside from all of that, college coaches aren't paid a whole lot (each staff has one official volunteer) and so this is how some of them put food on the table.

In other words, its not an evil empire trying to suck you dry. If that happens, its your own fault.

All I was trying to say is that the marketing (not just from camps, but from all kinds of events including travel teams, academies, showcases and equipment suppliers) is a lot more abundant and more aggressive than before. Its something I notice this time around. Six years ago, I had to look on college or showcase websites to find the information...on my own...now there are more than I can count and they mail and call and email...seems like almost every day. No blame to them.

Its just harder to sift through it all to find what you want and what is best for you.

And remember...all of these opportunities wouldn't be there if there wasn't a market (and buyers) for it all.

Just for the record...

College Camps can be good or bad, just like all other events. I really think the most important thing about college camps is to learn something while you are there. There are some very good ones, that aren't overly expensive, that serve that purpose.

I'm not sure what this means... "if they want you to pay, they just want your money." Did the person who said that have a job? Maybe his only reason for having that job is he just wants their money and other than that, he doesn't care about helping them at all.

quote:

how some of them put food on the table.

In other words, its not an evil empire trying to suck you dry. If that happens, its your own fault.

How is it my fault if I am lured to a college camp on the written premise from a college coach running the camp that "he signed X number of players from same camp year before and he is interested in my son???" If a college coach promotes this as a means to lure in $$$ for his program then he should have to provide proof of his promotion. Failing that, he is lower than a used car salesman because at least I have a lemon law to protect me on the rolled back odometer reading.

You seem to justify it is OK for a coach/college to deceive parents who are also facing difficult times just because that coach needs to put more food on HIS table. Take food off mine to fill his? And I could argue most do not make decent money but that is not and was not my point.

Look, if nobody on here cares to address these real issues (like refunds as I suggested) or others I have opined on fine but please don't blame parents for trusting in the coaches in this recruiting process. If you want to apply a "Buyer beware" message to me then don't overlook the deceptive advertising messages being sent out from "some" colleges and universities. Messages they can be a lot more transparent about which I would think a legit program would want to advocate.

BTW, as noted in previous message I note college clinics/camps where the info learned was worth the investment.

The person that said that had an awesome player who verbaled to a D1 in his sophomore summer, so she was in a different stratosphere than most of us.

I came across the wrong way. We have been to many, many college camps, but except for the ones I mentioned, we have viewed them as instructional, and valuable, but not recruiting opportunities.

I do agree with samiam in that these things that come in the mail or to the player's email are specifically designed to stroke the ego and try to get the money. No question about it. When a guy calls and asks for my son, and then says he was asked to attend a camp by a certain school, and that school's "top prospect" camp is taking place at the exact same time, there is a problem. But that guy is just trying to make a living, too.

Regarding refunds, I don't have any problem letting them keep the $25 or %50 admin fee. As an admin person, I do work a living, and I put the time in to do the work to register the player.

Who in the world said anything about not trusting the coaches?

My goodness. If your son is good enough to play at State U., and he goes to their camp...they will recognize that he is good enough and begin talking to him about playing there. They, in fact, hope to do just that..."find" players they didn't know before or see more of players they did know about.

If, on the other hand, you overestimate your son's ability and send him to a camp for the sole purpose of being recruited by that school...and you took food off your table to do that...then you blew it, not the coach.

Consider that your general, "buyer beware." That is, if you wanna use camps for recruiting, point your energy and money to schools where your son, realistically, can play. Mom and Dad are often not too good at making that judgement...so don't blame the college coach. It is your choice on whether or not to write the check.

I agree with justbaseball.

And PGStaff, just so you know, I wasn't even thinking about Perfect Game when I was talking about that mom. She wasn't either. He went to PG events well after his verbal (and she still paid). There are investments that are worth it.

We didn't start to get PG stuff until after 2B had been to an event, and you had already ranked him quite respectably. PG is not in the same category as the others I was thinking about.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:


If, on the other hand, you overestimate your son's ability and send him to a camp for the sole purpose of being recruited by that school...and you took food off your table to do that...then you blew it, not the coach.

What is someone supposed to think when the invite comes from the "recruiting co-ordinator"? Are they really recruiting or just collecting money from warm bodies?

quote:

If, on the other hand, you overestimate your son's ability and send him to a camp for the sole purpose of being recruited by that school...and you took food off your table to do that...then you blew it, not the coach.

Just BB,

Wow, you really don't get it do you?

For the record my son is signed, sealed and set to play for a D1 school next year which goes to your implication I over-estimated my kids ability which incidentally, was never part of the issue I was making but somehow you dragged it in.

Point you keep missing or intentionally overlook (maybe you are a college coach?) is more than one D1 coach called him over the summer and wrote to him inviting him to "their HS prospect clinics" based on "their interest in him" from receiving and reviewing his DVD and baseball resume. In these particular incdences we did NOT randomly sign-up or seek these colleges out. Both promoted the lure of "X" number of kids they signed from same camp year before and all I am suggesting is if that is what they are going to promote then what is the harm in publicizing exactly which kids they recruited from their camps that are now on their current rosters??? Why hide it if is true be proud and promote them and your camp at same time!

You seem to think there is nothing wrong in these instances with NOT having to validate something these coaches used as a carrot to lure me, my son (my money)so I can validate I spent money on something that was legit. Matters not whether they recruited my son fromm the clinic they wanted to see him at, what SHOULD matter to all who attended believing they might be one of the few chosen, is did they recruit ANY kids who attended??? If yes....post the names with a BIG congratulations on their team website.
Now THAT would pretty much solidify the invite was legit would it not?

If no kids were signed then NO BIGGIE - the talent was NOT as good as they anticipated BUT...if none were recruited then THAT COACH should not be able to advertise next year that he signed "X" number of players from a camp where in fact he signed NONE!

I am sorry if you don't get the whole food off my table analogy but I don't know how better to explain it so...my bad.

As far as 2B Mom, you agree with me and then side with those who clearly do not? Nothing like wavering.

Not once did I reference PG showcases as part of my issues. I mentioned some colleges and their coaches and I obviously began this post with questions about PG to begin with.

quote:

Just BB,

Wow, you really don't get it do you?

Nah, probably not.

Put your seat belt on...reading your words...you've got some more 'surprises' over the next 3-4 years.

Good luck and enjoy!

Wow, don't you just appreciate it when you take your time to share your constructive experience and they turn on you to demonstrate their own agenda?

You are right, he will have a great 3-4 years in the stands finding others to see his point of view.

quote:

For the record my son is signed, sealed and set to play for a D1 school next year which goes to your implication I over-estimated my kids ability which incidentally, was never part of the issue I was making but somehow you dragged it in.

Uh, Samiam, justbb is about as supportive poster as there is on this site. In fact, he has been sitting in the stands in Omaha cheering his son and his teammates. He actually has been there. He has a clue, a very big clue. He actually is trying to give you some thoughts based on real world experience on getting to and competing in college baseball, at the very highest levels.
BTW, whenever I read "my son" is signed sealed to "play" at a DI, I just have a very sick feeling.
No one signs a NLI to "play." Surely 50%, or more, of those who sign NLI's don't play. If your son signed an NLI, that is wonderful. It isn't a NLI to play. It is an NLI that says he will compete with other scholarship players and the best will play, the others won't.
You are getting supportive input from a poster who has been there and knows.
All he wants to do is provide some guidance and experience from a parent who had a son who was a top player coming out of high school and lived his dream of getting to Omaha.
But, maybe you have all the answers.
Good luck finding the questions.

quote:

Originally posted by Homerun04:
Wow, don't you just appreciate it when you take your time to share your constructive experience and they turn on you to demonstrate their own agenda?

Seems to be a lot of this happening here lately.

Not sure I understand the point of this topic, if the OP's son is already headed to D1, why the questions (though not to take away from PG's very good responses).

Let's get this understood about college camps/clinics/showcases. College baseball is big business and businesses exist to make money. All programs use camps to subsidize their programs, many use it to cover living costs for their volunteer assistants and other costs not covered by the school. College coaches must charge fees to everyone, and they also have to find a way to get you there, just like car dealerships have to find ways to get you through their door, not all advertising may be above board. There is honest and dishonesty (sadly) in recruiting.

Pick and choose very carefully, there are some that are very good and others that are not.

Besides what infielddad has posted about the NLI, it is also an insturment that binds the player to attend that program for a specified amount of money for one year. I agree, it doesn't guarantee playing time.

As I read this post and the college pitching coach post, it makes me wonder just how many high school players have the opportunity to pick and choose based on coaches and trainers and facilities, etc. What I mean is how many multiple offer players are out there that can pick and choose what school they will attend? Is it the top 200, 500, 1000 HS players?

There are so many factors of what school your son will be able to attend, with the offer(s) being the real factor that in the end narrows the choice down. Some of these factors include:

Academic acceptance
Distance from home/Region of choice
Number of competing players that are being recruited at your position
Number of rostered players at your position and are they leaving
Transfer players coming in
Early verbals taking up more and more spots from the traditional junior summer
Financial burden of attendance (which includes distance, out of state, etc.)
Match of majors offered
Prestige of the team (division, conference, W-L, reputation)
Coaches

When all the above factors are blended together, along with bona fide offers - the vast majority of players, let’s throw out a number of 90%, will have 2 or less options to choose from. The other 10% will have more than 2, and probably 2-3% can name their school of choice.

So after all the hand wringing is over, I see all this back and forth about where would you choose to go for 90% of the players is really discovering your fit and becoming comfortable with it. We sure had fun doing it.

From what I've seen it is fairly common for schools to sign a player or two from their camps and sometimes even players they haven't seen before. I think most schools can honestly claim that players have come from their camps.

Love it when someone with 6 posts challenges another poster with over 4000 posts!

My son attended some really well run college camps starting in 9th grade. He learned something valuable from each camp. His goal was instruction and he got what we payed for.

It was also a valuable experience to attend the camp @ his future college. He got to know his future coaches better and it helped solidify his decision.

As with anything in life you have to make decisions based on whats best for your family. If you don't want to spend the money for instruction @ a college camp, don't go!

quote:

I also don't need any warnings what lies ahead for my son. More constructive help? Yeah right. Was I suppose to say he is headed to a D1 school preparing to get cut or sit the bench? He is going there preparing to play and to earn his opportunity to keep playing. Sorry he isn't a top prospect guaranteed a position which it seems clear is more of what this recruit forum is all about.

Wow, why all the accusatory stuff.
What you are reading is the experience of some really good posters who are trying to provide balance and experience to your situation and questions. The parents who posted include those from top DI's, mid-level DI's, DII's and DIII's.
Before you get too far along with your attack mode on the NLI comment I made, let me tell you our son didn't sign one. He was not a top prospect. Coming out of high school, he wasn't recognized as a DI prospect until the Summer after his senior year. He didn't attend a DI school.

samian, there are many thousand-plus posters on this forum whose sons were/are not STUD players - me included. I don't think anyone has a problem with your questions - it is perhaps the way you have been asking them. You seem combative and defensive, and a little humility and teachability (especially from a newbie such as yourself) goes a long way on this site.

I know what it is to make financial sacrifice and question how my hard-earned money is being spent. By mid-summer following my son's jr. year, we had to take out a 401K loan to ensure we were able to make it through the rest of the recruiting process.

Sure, we made some mistakes. We spent $600 to send our freshman son to the camp of a perennial CWS contender. What were we thinking??? We spent another $600 or so to send our son to a Big 12 camp after one of their volunteer asst. coaches called our son (before July 1) to say he'd him play at another camp (where he had also worked) and wanted to invite him to theirs. We were flattered and made the mistake of sending our son, where he got ZERO attention.

But we got some bang for our buck at other camps. The D1 where my son is currently playing started pursuing him big-time after he attended their camp and another D1 recommended our son to a feeder JUCO after he attended their camp showcase.

Interestingly, we view even the "wasted" dollars as money well-spent. Through the non-interest shown our son at certain camps, we learned he was NOT a valid prospect at UT or Oklahoma State and needed to lower his sights. We also learned that the local D1, which our son was very interested in, was not interested in him when he attended their camp, which helped redirect him to other possibilities.

Times are tough economically and I certainly understand parents' desire to be prudent in how they spend their money. The key is to ask lots of questions about various camps, schools, showcases, etc. before getting out your checkbook or credit card. If you ask the well-informed people on this message board, most likely you will get extremely helpful answers that will aid you in making wise spending decisions.

Best wishes to your son.

Whoa sir, just chill out a bit.

Unfortunetly most parents don't really have a plan to this recruting process, and this is a good place to learn from others experience, even yours.

Most parents also spend way more then they should, mostly because they feel their childs ability is far superior than to what it usually is, then when all is said and done, they are angry they didn't get any return on their investments. If one looks on it that way, no one would be happy. We all most likely all spend too much than we should.

I know JBB pretty well, I am pretty sure he's the type that feels that if you make a commitment to spending money, you do so because that is what you enjoy doing, regardless of what he thinks of his son's ability. I think he actually will tell you that his older player (now in professional ball) became a highly sought out player only AFTER he showed up at the right places. That's the key, getting someone to rate your son's ability, and having it done the right way. I think that he can relate to your situation more than you think because of his experiences.

As far as the PG rating, attending one of their showcases most likely can be the single most important thing one can do. This gives you the parent and the player an idea of how he rates and ranks with his peers. This can help set a plan for recruiting. The plan should include whether your player wants to stay close to home, fits that are good for him, academically as well as for baseball, etc. In other words, why shlep to every top D1 camp in the country if you would never have an opportunity to get recruited from there? There is honesty and dishonesty in recruiting and then there is reality. The only reason for attending top program camps should be because most have really good instruction and #1 it should be a learning experience. These coaches spend lots of money on traveling to find the right players for their programs, they do not need camps to recruit, but they do need the money too. Smaller programs with smaller budgets use camps to recruit. Many kids get recruited from camps, many don't, find out what you will get for what you are paying for. I think that was what JBB was saying in his post.
As far as you wanting your money back when there is a conflict, make sure you know the policy in advance, it's no one's fault but mother nature's if it rains that weekend. This helps you to plan in advance, which is what the recruiting experince is all about.
Actually this forum has less parents of elite players than you might expect, and because they have come here to learn, they have come away with rewarding experiences and thier players found the right fit, that is all that matters in the end.

I think Infield08's experience pretty much sums up the learning that takes place in this process.
I agree with her, it's not what you posted but how you posted.
And how would you know, just beginning here, what we have posted in the past regarding camps and the pros and cons of making decisions to attend those that make you think that yo may have a shot. WE have spent hours and loads of bandwidth on this discussion.

And, BTW, we all all not DADS here.

samiam - You really have no idea what road we traveled or are traveling with our younger son, do you?

At this point in time of our older son's junior year in HS he had exactly ONE letter from a college that amounted to anything. At this point in his junior year, heading into "camp season," we had to very carefully pick and target where we thought he had a chance since ONE letter didn't seem to me to signal a whole lot.

So I've been there.

What I did do...since I hadn't found this site yet...was to ask every single 'experienced' person I knew about what to do next. And I listened. I didn't challenge them based on assumptions that I had no right to make. And some (very little actually) of it I found later to not be helpful, but I still listened.

The only "assumption" you have made about my older son that is correct is that in the end...very late in the end...he did have a number of very good choices. The road to get there, however, was NOTHING like what you have assumed...much more like you describe for yourself. Careful planning, difficult choices, money spent wisely.

Maybe I'm wrong? But I sense from your angry posts that you may have some tough times ahead as your son fights for playing time at his college. Even for a highly recruited (in the end) "prospect," this is not easy.

"Guaranteed a position?" LOL! Now that is REALLY funny!

Good luck! I hope you find the questions for your answers.

Sam: This site isn't just for the elite. Parents and players from all levels post here and each brings a different perspective to the table. There's something for everyone if you're willing to find it. Advice here can be direct at times, but that's a good thing if you're willing to accept it. Great thing is, you can also discard it.

I know what you're saying about college camps. My son wasn't a big-time recruit, but we hit the camp circuit looking for that one place that would suit him. Did he go to some camps that he knew an offer wouldn't be coming? Yes, but he went for the instruction -- as well as the hope other schools would be there or that his name might be passed along to a school that could use a player with his skills. There was only one instance where we felt duped, and it came in the form of a hand-written letter with glowing praise from a recruiting coordinator that had seen him at another camp. But when we got what was supposed to be a small camp of this recruiting coordinator's school, we quickly figured out he had sent out a whole lot of glowing hard-written letters. Chalked that one up to experience. Eventually he got an offer from a school that saw him at a couple of camps.

The recruiting process is hard for most players and parents. Lots of questions and not a lot of answers, which is why this place exists.

So take this site for what it's worth. I've found it's worth a lot. You may not. Do I agree with every poster? No way. (In fact, I think some of them are crazy.) But there are so many good people here with good intentions that it seems silly to get offended by a single piece of advice.

I lurked for a long time just trying to take it all in. Now, with my son in college, I'm posting some to share my little slice of perspective on the chance that somebody else might might it helpful. (For those who don't find it useful, please feel free to put me on ignore. )

quote:

Originally posted by samiam321:
Sorry he isn't a top prospect guaranteed a position which it seems clear is more of what this recruit forum is all about.

I also find this interesting, you have no idea or clue how long it took JB's son to get his chance to prove himself. One of the few players I know of who battled against odds and beat them to get where he is today, even being as you say a "top" recruit out of HS.

I have also spent a ton of money. Worn out at least three Suburbans over the course of these baseball years. Does that count? We decided that we could have saved the $ and paid for at least 3 kids to attend college full time but we wouldn't have had near as much fun or had such a great relationship with our baseball playing son and his teammates & their parents & coaches. So money well spent IMO.

As far as refunds to camps. It says "no refunds". Unfortunately, that is exactly what it means. Many local merchants also have this same policy.

IMO and in my experience...the biggest asset for attending a college camp is to get your son on the campus of that college and interacting with the coaching staff. You may not have the talent to play at that level but you still may have the desire to attend that university. It is a good measuring stick, academically and athletically, for your son to make his decision on just how far he wants to take the "baseball thing".

Next question for this thread.............

2010 Son has committed to Div I JUCO. Very good program, very very happy that he will be a part of this program. Have never attended a PG event. Conflicts and $$$ issues. Have been invited to one in January. Do you attend for more exposure? Does he really need that rating? OR do you just go out and play hard your last high school season and let things fall where they may?

Keep in mind. Son & parents are extremely happy to get the JUCO scholarship and perfectly satisfied with that.

Site has been one of our biggest teachers and assets. Thanks to all who contribute their thoughts.

Samiam321 -
First of welcome to the HSBBWeb and congratulations on your son's signing with a D1. It's a pretty special time...I'm sure you and your entire family are (rightfully so) very proud.

Just a comment from the parent of a 'non-stud' player -
I'm sure you have already formed your opinion of this site and some of the posters who offer up their thoughts here. If that's the case, then that would be a shame. For me, the experience and knowledge of the some of the posters here is pretty amazing. And, they offer it all here...for free. The only advise I would offer is to take what 'fits' and leave the rest. It's all here for everyone -- top prospects...and, 'for hard workers, clawing their way to get some playing time' players, like my son.

This is a good site, with lots of really good people. Hopefully, someday you will see that.

Again, congrats on the signing and welcome. I hope the next few years are all you want them to be.

First, welcome to all new posters.

Good question, packsthecooler and a personal one for your son.

I can't tell you what to do, if your son has committed to a JUCO and you and he feels that is the right fit, then that's good stuff. However, I don't see how any PG showcase can do any harm at this point, just make sure that son is in "showcase" form if you decide to attend.

Thanks for adding that in about spending money that could have paid for 3 kids to go to college, and not looking back and being sorry that you did, that is what it is all about.

This site is here for all to share their experiences, good and bad, for studs and non stud players, that's how we learn.

Packsthecooler...welcome.

Ditto TPM's response. If you can swing the PG event, I would do it. In addition to whatever add'l exposure you son would get (there will be some), he'll play against/with some of the best. And, to us, the PG events were always a great learning experience - and fun!

quote:

2010 Son has committed to Div I JUCO. Very good program, very very happy that he will be a part of this program. Have never attended a PG event. Conflicts and $$$ issues. Have been invited to one in January. Do you attend for more exposure? Does he really need that rating? OR do you just go out and play hard your last high school season and let things fall where they may?

packsthecooler,

It sounds like the only exposure that might interest you would be MLB Scouting exposure. Maybe you don't even need that. I would never be comfortable suggesting that attending any event, even ours, is a must! I understand the money issue.

That said, I do feel comfortable telling any outstanding player that it could benefit him greatly if we knew a lot about him. It doesn't cost anything to be in our database. Yes, it might result in you receiving some brochures in the mail, but you do not have to attend anything. At the risk of sounding a bit too proud... I believe our database is the most complete in baseball and I think msny decision makers know that. Being on that database can be very important. We are more interested in who the best players are than how much money they have or give to us.

BTW, I think we are actually very fair when it comes to refunds. Just thought I would throw that out there.

Samiam and Packsthecooler, Welcome to the HSBBW.
You both gave good accounts of yourselves, and your experiances with the recruiting process.
They're no guarantee's at all in baseball.
We have all spent money that could of been spent better had we been thru the process before.
It's a **** shoot.
It's a Buyer beware world out there.

Samiam I don't believe that anybody attacked you Personally.
Its hard to read between the lines on a message board.
Everybody here want's to give constructive advice, and your's will be appreciated as well.
Heck we don't all get along all the time, thats what makes this board so Interesting.
So get ready for the Fodder.
Lets get it on.

theEH

Something to remember about spending money for exposure @ college camps or showcases. At some point it might be time/money better spent by encouraging your son to be the best student he can be.

Tutors are expensive but if it helps him get his GPA up it could pay off in the long run. It has been said here many times in the past that there is more academic money available than athletic money for baseball. Many colleges have merit aid available for top students. It is guaranteed for 4 years if they maintain a 2.0 to 3.0 GPA.

We spent money for both and wouldn't trade any of the time spent with our son going to all the practices, tournaments, games, etc. Not sure about other sports but as baseball parents we are blessed to have spent so much time with son and his teammates.

I can ditto that about Perfect Game being fair. Last year, son had arranged to go the PG Showcase, but a conflict developed at the last minute.

They were only too happy to allow him to reschedule to another showcase a month or so later. No fees or anything of the sort. Son had a good time and a great experience, and it proved very beneficial for him in terms of exposure, etc.

quote:

why all the accusatory stuff.

I get it. Oldtimers on here can make accusations about my kids talent, "HIS" D1 road ahead (cuz it ain't about me or mine when he is on his own) when neither were ever a part of the initial post; but a newbie can't throw it back at the oldtime posters.

Throw disdain at the delivery style of the new messenger while giving a free pass to the insults thrown out by oldtimers. I get that.

I have and did do a search for any post on here in regard to my message (which has all but been ignored) as to why colleges who promote/advertise they sign players from clinics they invite them to are not being more transparent and promotional in posting the names of those they signed. My search found no such post and nobody has argued it would be a stupid idea for coaches to do this so I just put it out on here for further discussion.

Most feedback I got was you go into this recruiting process expecting to spend money and throw a bunch of it away. This was not new info to me nor is the concept that you go to the clinics/camps to learn, gain exposure etc. I agreed with all of that.

Thought the poster who had to pull $$$ from his 401K would agree and appreciate my message(even if disliked messenger methods)that in today's tough economy where $$$ is tight for most; college coaches who also struggle to survive (?) would do more to demonstrate the product they are promoting for sale is in fact the product the rest of us are paying for. The fact that common sense rationale garnered me little to no support and only reminders the process IS about spending $$$ and yeah, sometimes getting duped, means nobody cares to make colleges/coaches more accountable for what they advertise to their unwitting consumers.

I broached the topic knowing I ain't gettin' a penny back and knowing my son's journey is complete. Thought maybe this forum with its many experienced voices and yes, many with great advice, would want do more to minimize the cash layout for those coming into the process. But misery loves company so let the newbies to the process throw away their money like the rest of us did. The "buyer beware" attitude prevails while the integrity of the college coaches remains in tact. No changing the status quo.

Look, I do appreciate those who showed some support or grasped where and what level I was coming from. Sorry, no way JustBB gets to make negative accusatory comments about my kid and insult me at the same time. I bought into the current recruiting process and we (my son especially) paid his dues but I don't buy into his son had the "same" tough road, not by a long shot. Now with that son proving his major D1 worth and making it to pro (sincere congrats to player for that) I am suppose to be able to believe that his next son has as equally tough a road ahead as my kid had or say the next newbie to this forum? Sorry...I am not buying it which is why I will be "samiam out of here and off this forum" (go ahead and applaud and get your digs in) from this point on.

PGstaff, I will refer parents to your website. Thank you!

PG,
Agree with you that it could be beneficial for mlb scouting for draft.
But also in the spring/summer many opportunities open up for those that have not committed to a 4 year program.
Just a matter of what feels right for the player, if still looking for that opportunity and doesn't mind spending, can't hurt.

Siam,
Perhaps not returning here would be in your best interest, you are starting to **** me off and I am sure not the only one.

Where did anyone say they agreed or disagreed with what you posted, and that it's ok to spend a ton of money. You've only dwelled upon what you feel was negative feedback, towards you, I didn't see it that way. However, when you begin to pick apart long time posters that have spent hours giving advice, and shown great humility in doing so, you are going to come up against some opposition as to your feelings.

My guess is you must feel you got raked over, several times, it happens. No one said it was ok, did they?

Best of luck to your son.

quote:

If they want you to pay, they just want your money.

If you dont pay then you have just jeprodized your NCAA eligibility.

quote:

Originally posted by playfair:

quote:

If they want you to pay, they just want your money.

If you dont pay then you have just jeprodized your NCAA eligibility.

Actually, I am not sure of the rule perhaps 3FG could explain, but if it was in violation, it would be against the school, most likely.

I think that a program can hold a free clinic, if it is free to everyone who attends. If special invites went to those being recruited, then it be would a violation.

I think the OP just thought that being invoted meant it should be for free, with the explanation that some schools need this money.

I just got an invite from Amex to be a platinum member, but I still got to pay the yearly fee.

quote:

Sorry, no way JustBB gets to make negative accusatory comments about my kid and insult me at the same time.

samiam - I did NOT make "negative accusatory comments" about your son at all. My comments are generic about parents and their kids...which by the way includes me. I have not met a parent yet who doesn't do a certain amount of overestimating of their son's abilities...and that includes me too. Its what we parents do and its a big part of why our kids are able to overcome obstacles...we give them hope when others do not.

I know nothing about your son, but I can assure you that I wish the very best for him and hope you will be back to tell us about his accomplishments.

You are way too sensitive...I didn't say the proverbial "shoe fits," but you apparently must feel it does as you are far too defensive.

As for you, based on your general attitude towards college coaches and your apparent disdain for the intentions you assume they have...I can only feel badly for you because I think you may have a really tough 3-4 years ahead of you. I've sat in the stands of college games with parents who say a lot of things similar to what you have written. They never seem to find happiness and their son's baseball playing days fly by so fast they nearly miss it all while they gripe about the coach's intentions or motives. It doesn't get any easier from here on out.

As for the age-old argument that old timers get all the breaks on here...its nonsense and its a boring excuse. You've drawn the wrath of a handful of posters with a wide range of experiences (and some are being very polite about it) because you quickly drew your guns and began firing in a darkened room. You don't know enough about me or any of the others on here to lob the grenades you have. New posters come on here often, without guns drawn, and receive lots of good advice and they use it to their advantage and ultimately become "oldtimers." You too have received some very good advice, you have just chosen to not hear much of it...for now at least.

Good luck to your son, and I mean that with total sincerity. Hope you reconsider, put the guns back in the holster and contribute with your experiences as they unfold.

quote:

I have and did do a search for any post on here in regard to my message (which has all but been ignored) as to why colleges who promote/advertise they sign players from clinics they invite them to are not being more transparent and promotional in posting the names of those they signed. My search found no such post and nobody has argued it would be a stupid idea for coaches to do this so I just put it out on here for further discussion.

OK, my apologies; I could have answered this earlier. But by the time I read and was in a position to respond, I had begun to suspect your motives and/or objectivity.

Anyway, for camps associated with D1 colleges, Bylaw 12.5.1.6 specifically disallows using a player's name in any way other than to list him as a camp staff member. So, for D1, there is a rule against it. On the other hand, camps associated with D2 colleges or which have no institutional association are allowed to publicize the names of previous attendees.

I've seen quite a few camp invitations. None have suggested that current players were "signed" from the camp. Instead the statement is more on the order of "attended the camp". For the colleges that I am well acquainted with, it is generally true that some players did attend at least one of the college's camps.

Can camps be free? Bylaw 13.12.1.5.1 covers this, and it pertains to any prospective student-athlete that has won an athletic award or is being recruited by the institution. Such a player cannot receive free or discounted admission or be employed by the camp. However, there is nothing that sets a minimum cost for the camp, and of course if admission is free to everyone, there is no problem. A violation only affects the institution.

Non-institutional camps can offer reduced costs, but this needs to be handled carefully to avoid problems with the "influence" rules.

Ostensibly and by NCAA rule, camps and clinics must be instructional in nature. Players and parents often gamble that in addition to receiving instruction, they will attract favorable attention from the coaching staff. Or for those players who are already "on the radar" of that college, it can be an opportunity for the player to evaluate the coaching staff. But the stated goal of the camp is instruction, and I am hard pressed to see why it should be free. (I am also hard pressed to believe that the instruction might be worth e.g. $200/day.)

Samiam, I thought you was a Big Dog.
You better stay on the porch.

Some just get there feeling's hurt, can't handle constructive dialog.
Know one should take this as a personal attack, it's just talk from experiance, thats all.

EH

Good stuff 3FG, thank you.

Now the HSBBW isn't really such a terrible place is it?

" For 90% of the players is really discovering your fit and becoming comfortable with it."

Isn't that the Gods honest truth!


Another truth: College camps are not the devil. They really do serve a good athlete well. And, if by some chance you are good and they need your position and you have the grades to attend it might work out for you.

If I had another son to bring through this process what I would look for in a college camp is a
camp that is run by the Major D1 school in the area that includes and serves as recruiting hub for the general area. Such as:

Camps and Coaching Staff:
Camp Coaches and Staff include, D1 Head Coach XX, D1 Asst. Coach XX, and include Head Coaches/recruiting coordinators of several area schools ***,***,***,*** at all levels (Juco, D2, D3). It should include some area MLB scouts. And ofcourse some players should be working it too. They should name names, levels and titles. These camps are out there.



I would avoid camps with descriptions like this:

Camp Coaches & Staff
All camps at ***X University are staffed with current ***X coaches and players. We feel that working with people associated directly with our program helps the camper get a firm grasp on the principles and techniques taught to *** baseball players. On occasion, former ***X players will join the camp as guest instructors.

quote:

Originally posted by Vicarious Dad:
What is someone supposed to think when the invite to the camp comes from the "recruiting co-ordinator"? Are they really recruiting or just collecting money from warm bodies?

I am trying to do my homework. Anyone want to take a shot at this one?

Vicarious Dad, there is a spot on the invite that will say call if you have any questions.

Call it. If your son is a 2B, ask the RC who they have already recruited at 2B for your sons recruiting year and ask if they are planning to make any more offers for the 2B position.

I prefer to say that they are trying to fill the camp---keep in mind that asst coaches have many functions besides the title they may have

OK, playfair. That makes sense. Those guys just seem ambiguous, at times.

Like I said before it's a **** shoot.
If your player performs well then there will be interest in him to play at that school.
Son played at a college camp.
No interest shown at the camp.
Son plays in a Connie Mack tournament 1 month later at the same
college.
Goes 7 inning's strikes out 13 batter's.
Same college coach did not know him from Adam, asks have you committed yet.
Son said yes, Just a week ago.
To a League rival non the less, ( he did not tell the Coach that ).

There are missed opportuinity's on both side's.
Weather it be a camp a showcase or a tournament.
You never know who's watching and when.

EH

I made the call once and asked the specific question of the RC. I was very honestly told, we would love to see *** at our camp but we have already recruited for that position and we wont look at the position again until late Spring.

I got that kind of honesty. I expect you will too. Then you will get to make an informed decision.

V-Dad - I think most of them say something like that.

Here's my view...if your son is a junior or senior...if the recruiting coordinator is not already in personal contact (emails, hand written mails, "please call" notes)...then the invite is most likely somewhat general.

That doesn't mean a player can't grab the attention of a coach at his camp...just that as of now he's not near the top of their list.

Our older son went "blind" to a camp of a school of great interest to him during Christmas of his junior year. By "blind" I mean we had no contact from that school before then that amounted to anything personal. But we took the chance, knowing full well that he may get only the instruction part out of the camp. That coach clearly recognized his ability at the camp and had a long talk with him while he was there...followed by emails and coming to his games and ultimately a very large scholarship offer.

In other words, you can come out of the blue and onto their radar...but the talent has to be there.

One thing I did to try and figure out where he stood was to ask a former college coach and a former college player who had coached our son. "Where do you think he fits talent-wise?"...and... "Just tell me the truth and I'll know what to do with that."

I think they were incredibly honest, telling me that they thought he was "on track" to be a D1 talent, but couldn't be 100% certain that it would ultimately play out that way.

That was good enough...I knew that I could take some risk with the camps but I wasn't going to break the household bank to chase pipe dreams. Put another way, we'd take "some" risk, but not full in.

It worked. But I am telling you, I worked hard, really hard to understand everything I could about it and that included asking tons of questions to lots of people and being willing to change my mind and alter the plan based on what I heard . I will also tell you that one of the people I talked to at some length was PGStaff's son...who had seen him play at a tournament.

I'm doing the same with the younger one...my virtual "advisory panel" includes his HS coach, summer coaches, that same old college coach, a scout-friend, postings on this site...and even in a phone call with a college coach showing interest in him. Constantly taking readings, gathering data, altering the course, spending limited resources as wisely as I can. The "panel members" are out there for us all and ready to help, but you gotta listen!

Good luck!

I actually agree with some parts of what samian is saying about college camps. I've seen the good and bad. But the vast majority of them are definitely not for teaching the kids.. their primary purpose is to draw in cash and hopefully lure a diamond in the rough, or at the very least provide a venue for them to talk to the stud recruits that fly in.. thereby avoiding the early contact rules.

And many of them market to local kids false hopes about getting seen, working with pros, meeting D1 coaches, etc. I sometimes went to these camps scratching my head watching some of these kids with little or no talent whose dads paid hundreds of dollars to attend. And only to watch as the college coaches followed the studs around like puppy dogs, totalling ignoring these poor souls.

Now, don't for a minute think I'm against showcasing. PG is a great organization, and it was a fantastic learning experience, a great way to get exposure.. but if a kid's parents are unrealistic about their son's ability, who's fault is it? Probably theirs, but I still feel sorry for them.

My own son received a college scholarship as a result of a college camp, so I'm not against camps, either. But like I've said, I've seen the good and the bad and most of them bordered on bad.

quote:

Perhaps not returning here would be in your best interest, you are starting to **** me off and I am sure not the only one.

Now you are in trouble !!

It is amazing how some think they own this site and can issue such directives !!!!

Good post by Bum. Essentially is what this place is all about, you learn from others.

My son went to ONE camp, after that he said don't ask him to attend another. I admit it was recruiting purposes only.

What works for some may work for others, USA tournament as a soph got him some attention, and woodbat in Jupiter the most doors, he actually didn't attend any showcases until junior winter (1) and senior summer (1). The best money spent was a local travel team that traveled the country. Instead of camps, he actually played tournies at college campus' through Florida and other places. Coaches got front row seats and could talk to the kids afterwards. I think that was the best bang for our bucks, and we spent very little in relation to others here.

BHD,
I could ask to have your post zapped, the OP has been very rude, just like you at times, when you don't hear what you want to. Leaving it up only reinforces this. JMO.

The OP said he was out of here, my opinion was that if that is his choice so be it, he was annoying and rude and THAT was and is MY opinion.

quote:

when you don't hear what you want to.

You mean when I don't follow your edicts !

There is no need to take this stuff personal. I didnt see anything in JBB posts that was personal he was just giving his advice. And it was good advice in my opinion. We all know that camps are money makers. And at the same time they are opportunities for players as well. If you pick up a tip or two get to work out etc its all good. And if your good enough you might even get recruited by this school or a school of a coach that is helping out.

Its a fact that many players are recruited based on performances at college camps. I know my son was. Its an opportunity for these coaches to get to know a player as well and the same opportunity for the player. Sometimes these camps also are an opportunity for a school to mark a player off their list and the same opportunity for the player.

What would people like for these coaches to say "This camp is a money maker. We dont use these camps as a way of seeing players that could play for us. So send us your money and just come and have a good time."

I dont take anything on this site personal. Everyone has a right to voice their opinion. If you get upset and take stuff personal on this site you wont be around very long. Its just not worth it.

Even in the real world I don't take things personally---not worth the aggravation--not at all

In the virtual world it is even more so


what ever happened to good old American debates ???

I can't believe I missed all this fun!

First, imagine being so mean to JustBaseball, especially on a day in which his Cardinal(s) are going to lose a tough game to Cal! I mean, really! Have some compassion!

Seriously, Samiam, what you took as an insult was not even close to being such, and I'm sure I am not alone in being puzzled why you would react in such a way to what was general observation/advice about parents and their misjudgments of their own kids' abilities.

Now, to your point about college camps: Should colleges provide names to verify the kids they "signed from their camps?" I don't think that is at all necessary, if what you are worried about is coaches making false claims about signing players from their camps.

The fact is, lots of recruits they are interested in will attend their camp so the coaches can get them on campus, get a better look at them, and so the recruit can check them out too. If that player ends up signing, is that one who they "signed from the camp?"

Providing the names of signed players who attended their camps is unnecessary, and frankly I wouldn't want my son's name disclosed in this fashion because it would almost certainly result in phone calls from parents asking for opinions that I might prefer to keep to myself.

Your aggressive behavior on this board has been very interesting to watch, and more than a little amusing.

What I do hope is that the OP is reading and will take back some of this info to the parents asking questions.
I think tat 3FG cleared up lots of misconceptions he had about college camps/clinics/showcases, an invite doesn't mean free and the schools cannot post the info he thinks he should.
There are many folks here whose sons have obtained a nice scholarship but only afterwards realized there are some things they didn't have to do and some things they didn't that they should have.

What's important is the end result, finding the right fit.

Samiam,
You started this thread and asked for advice from perfect strangers. That is how I started on here years ago. Sometimes you learn more by listening, not typing 500 word essays.

You got plenty of advice and personal experiences, from some of the very BEST people here on HSBBWEB. The same people who have gone out of their way to help many hundreds of families.

Whats the problem?

I love this website - it has been very helpful in the recruiting process. Son has attended college camps of those schools that interest him academically and then baseball(D3). So far working out well.

samiam-

You will get some excellent advice on this board. That is a fact. You will also get dog piled, and tag teamed, that is fact as well. Pick and choose the info that best fits what you asked and be thankful, it can be very valuable.

quote:

Originally posted by packsthecooler:
2010 Son has committed to Div I JUCO. Very good program, very very happy that he will be a part of this program......

Pack - Congrats to PackJr, I'm glad things worked out, I was hoping it would! Like I said, you guys did good. GED10DaD

samiam: Way back in one of your earlier posts in this thread you made the statement that you think college camps and showcases should report more details. I agree with this but I'm not really interested in names of players that were signed after attending the camps/showcases. I am much more interested in knowing which college coaches were actually in attendance. This would help us in knowing which coach has now seen sandlotson more than once, etc. What are they hiding from my son and from future prospects?

Our experiences in camps have been that they are not valuable wrt instruction. There are just too many players in attendance to get any real attention and the feel is that it is 90% about recruiting. The true value of a camp is being seen by that individual school(and checking out the program for yourself) and one shouldn't expect any more than that.

OK, I guess I'll chime in on this one!

My Son attended a total of 6 College Camps.(3 after Soph year and 3 after JR year)

Total cost of around $550(2 of them were 2 day camps) All except 1 were in-state and fairly close.

2 each at 2 schools that were his top choices and were in-state, 1 at a JUCO that had several JUCO and D2, D3 and NAIA schools attending, and 1 that he was invited to by the recruiting director.

He ended up signing with the D1 school that invited him specifically.

The others were all worth it, though IMO!
Here is why I say that:

-he learned how and what Coaches were evaluating
-he learned what skills he needed to improve upon
-got to see a school and it's coaches in action
-got a chance to compete against some very good players
-he had fun!
-I had fun!

He did get some specific instruction at a couple, and got written evaluations from 5 of the 6.

The one he didn't get a written evaluation from was the school he is now attending. After the camp, the HC and assistant sat down with us and dicussed an offer. They had seen him at several tournaments previously, but wanted an up-close look, I guess?

Anyone in or near Missouri, or considering Missouri schools that wants more info on area college camps, please PM me and I'll give you my take.

Do you mind me asking where your son is attending, in Missouri?

He's not in Missouri.

All but one of the Camps we attended were in Missouri.

He's a Hilltopper at Western Kentucky.
I wish it was closer, but it's a great fit for him!

My son attended 3 camps. 2 in winter and 1 in early summer. Coach of summer camp made him a offer that day. It does happen.

Hmm...After reading OP's rants..I bet he is a YANKEES fan!!! (Couldn't resist!! )

PGStaff,

You have a PM - Thank You.