Pitchers who also Catch

Don't like it and you dont see it above HS........

I hate it when I see coaches pull catchers out from behind the plate after multiple innings and then put them on the mound.......but I know that in a lot of youth programs the best catcher, Pitcher, Shortstop and centerfielder may be the same kid.....

PIAA UMP

I am with you --I hate it--quick way to ruin a kids arm-

One or the other at least in my world

Players can do both but I wouldn’t encourage it. My son has done it for the past seven years...four years of high school and three years of college. He has finally given up pitching this year and focused on catching, although he was scheduled to start on the mound against Florida State in game four of the NCAA regional. IF and that is a big word, the coach and the parents will monitor the player to protect his arm, pitching and catching can both be done. During my son’s senior year of high school I had to intervene and limit his use because of overuse. Not a good situation. I do believe the dual role can open some doors but the downside is inviting injury and limiting his ability to develop to his max potential at either position. If I had it to do over again I would not encourage my son to pitch and catch to the extent he did. He was primarily a starting pitcher in high school and college. I think the role of catcher/closer would be more practical. If my answer seems vague it’s because you and your son don’t have total control where he plays and he may have to make some adjustments. I have always felt coaches should have the ability to place players where they feel the players could help the team, but the player can also influence that decision by telling the coach where he wants to play and dedicating himself to getting better at his selected position. Stick with one if at all possible. Best of luck.
Fungo

I am a catcher/pitcher and i don't mind it. i did not pitcher as much this year as in years past, but i am going into next year knowing that i might have to be the number 2 pitcher. In the past two years i might get a sore arm after pitching and catching in a tournament, but other players would also get sore arms too. I don't think it is a big deal especially if you know how to take care of your arm.

quote:

Originally posted by piaa_ump:
Don't like it and you dont see it above HS.............but I know that in a lot of youth programs the best catcher, Pitcher, Shortstop and centerfielder may be the same kid.....

So True.....

At what age should a player just say No?

quote:

..... you dont see it above HS........

Well.... I know it's just one data point but Matt Weiters at Georgia Tech has caught and pitched in the same game (in fact he started at first base, caught, then closed out the game on the mound). I don't think he's done it much this season, but it can be done. My son catches and pitches, as long as his pitch count stays reasonable I don't see a problem.

StyleMismatch,
If you know about Weiters from Tech, you would know he is not your ordinary player.
However, I am just wondering, if he keeps it up, will he have an arm left in a few years?

StyleMismatch

When you talk pitch counts do you

01-- if he pitches and catches in the same game do you add the catchers throws to the pitches throw
02-- if he pitches the game after he caught do you consider the catchers throws as not
03-- do you consider the stress factor on the body in catching and then pitching, especially in the same game

Keep in mind that most arm problems are due to an accumulation of things-the TJ doesnt happen overnight

My son pitches and catches, my regulation to the coach is that he is not to do both in the same game or same day, (Double header) unless he is behind the plate for 3 innings or less and then he has a last batter when his pitch count reaches 45. Depending on the three innings caught I figure this is equivalent to a six inning performance. Our team is fortunate that we have enough pitching to keep our pitcher/catchers from doing double duty. We have four players that can do both. Although it happens on rare occasions when one is having a bad day on the mound.

Good article in Weiters:Matt Weiters
StyleMismatch,
Weiters is a great two-way player and think he will remain a 2 way player but could shift from behind the plate to 1b because he has too much upside on the mound. I don’t know what his role has been in college, but C/P is the most unique situation. Maybe BEE could weigh in on this.
About pitching and catching...you state:

quote:

My son catches and pitches, as long as his pitch count stays reasonable I don't see a problem

The REAL PROBLEM with pitching/catching is that we don’t really know how to approach this combination and we don’t realize we have a problem until it’s too late. Once a player comes to his dad and says “my elbow hurts a little right here when I throw” it may already be too late. So let me ask a few questions. What is a reasonable pitch count? Would it be different than a pitcher only? Does catching alter pitching mechanics? If so, does that change of mechanics invite injury? What about recovery time? Would catching hinder recovery time...or...would it help it? Would it be OK to catch the first game of a double header and pitch the next? If there is a problem, (other than a blown elbow), what’s a parent to do? As I look back over the past years I know my son has been lucky to have had only one operation as a result of baseball (broken finger). I’ve seen a lot of elbows and shoulders cut on over the past years that if I were to do it all over again I would be a lot more cautious with my son’s arm. I admire the player that crashes the wall to catch the ball that's hit to the warning track but we parents need to be a little more careful.

Fungo
PS... StyleMismatch, My son took the mound and earned the save against #3 Georgia Tech in '03 in the ninth inning after catching the first eight innings... I was proud....but I still think it was wrong!

In a normal game how many more throws (that stress the arm) does a catcher make than a player at any other position?

I agree 100% with ozzir, a catcher makes about the same amount(maybe a few more) of hard throws with runners on base as a shortstop might.

In 2004 - I watched a very talented young man (drafted out of high school as a pitcher) pitch - and then get put behind the plate for about 20 games - in between his pitching assignments. I told my wife that I thought it was the dumbest thing I had ever witnessed. She told me not to be so negative.
To make matters worse - he wasnt even a good catcher - and the team had 2 other catchers that were far superior both offensively and defensively.

By the end of the 2004 season - his velocity on the mound was markedly lower - and he struggled to finish the season.

2005 - Kid projected to go quite high in the draft - some folks thought he might go in the 2nd or 3rd round.

Unfortunately - early spring 2005 - elbow blew up - TJ.

Just a sad thing to see - and just about every who watched knew it was coming.

You just have to wonder sometimes why coaches do this - and why kids agree to it.

It was simply - a no-brainer nightmare IMO.

OK. It is not just catcher/pitchers that have had arm trouble. People that play any position and pitch can have their elbows blow up. Its not just the catchers. I think that because there are far less catcher/pitchers, people tend to target them and there catching for the reason of their amr trouble.

Rock,

I dont disagree - and the example I cited is just one isolated incident.

But - as far as I am concerned - when you take a highly talented young pitcher - who cant catch a lick - and put him behind the plate - it seems almost surreal as you watch it.

I dont get it - and I surely wouldnt recommend taking any draftable pitcher and slapping some catchers equipment on him.

I was under the impression that most college pitchers only pitch -and that is it-nothing else- OR does it depend upon what college/division he attends.

PA - It depends on the school, coach and level. Many smaller schools allow a kid to do both. My own son will pitch some at his JUCO, although he will be primarily an outfielder. I think it's up to a parent to do their research if this is an opportunity a kid will have. You have to find a coach that respects and values your kid and his arm. Catching and pitching?!?!?!?!!?!?

despite the limited examples given, it is extremely rare that a college pitcher would catch........Playing another position as well would depend on the player and not the division he attends....

I have seen many pitchers who had field time at other positions....in my experience mainly at first base or an outfield position....

Fungo, you're right, Weiters played mainly first base (or DH) and then came in as a closer this year. My point in citing Matt was that for him to be able to be a good enough catcher to go behind the plate for Tech, he had to have had plenty of experience catching in high school. And he's a darned good pitcher as well, so we know that he's had plenty of experience there too.

In my son's case he rarely catches and pitches in the same game, although he will on occasion pitch the last inning or two after catching. In those cases his pitch count is only 20 or 30. He's got a couple of years to go yet before high school, I'd be interested in hearing about how you handled things with your son's coach when he was getting over-used.

by fungo

quote:

Weiters is a great two-way player and think he will remain a 2 way player but could shift from behind the plate to 1b because he has too much upside on the mound

as usuall fungo is on target

Weiters problem ( ), if you can call it that, is that he can do "so much so well" it is tempting for a team to let him do it all, even tho that wear & tear could eventually take its toll.
I think he understands that aspect and has a very knowlegable baseball guy close to him as well.
His freshman season was kind of a "shake down run" getting a feel for which skills would play at the next level, and after finding "ALL of them did", my guess is that he'll be more active in defining or limiting his roles this summer & beyond

also, we video and chart every pitch with velo, location & results - so it's not a guess as to when the best stuff is there and when it's not -
ie.- the amount of rest since last outing, coming in from a position or dh, etc

My opinion: Keep catchers behind the plate and pitchers on the mound, period. The mechanics of the two positions are radically different, the wear and tear is too much, especially in light of the fact that in good baseball, these two positions are handling nearly every ball thrown. Sure, there are guys that CAN do both well - including my son. The only time he has ever been seriously injured (which ultimately cost him an entire spring season) was when there was pretty much no other alternative for him (or his team) to catch and pitch and maintain any manner of competitiveness. (Yes - he knew the dangers; Yes, these were professional baseball people; No, Dad could not be there; No, I'm not naming names or organizations that are very well respected.)

This summer when he was 'recruited' by his current travel team (not the same organization where the injury occurred) his first response was that he would be glad to play wherever needed but "If you think I will ever catch and pitch again, you need to find another player."

As a side note, I lost some respect for the organization despite a long heritage of great baseball run by great people. The coaches should have never even asked. Sure, my son could have and should have said no. But as competitive a player as he is, he felt an obligation to his team. To catch nearly every inning of every game in a very competitive situation and then be put into that position is, in my opinion, over the top. My son graciously thanked the organization when it was all said and done - and told them that the best thing he was taking away from the experience was a reinforcement in knowing his limits.

I think what ticked me off most about the whole experience is that these respected professional baseball people knew he suffered a very serious injury and never once followed up or showed any concern. He's still not one hundred percent, and this is most likely the most important summer for him.

I'm not whining here by any means. I debated a long time about posting this. Ultitmately by telling this story I would hope one kid's arm is not jeopardized in the same manner.

I am very glad that my oldest sons team is very deep in catching and pitching. This has been good for him, in the last 48 innings played he has caught 3 and pitched 9. Played 2nd for 35. It has helped him know that other players can step up and he doesn't need to be the end all to beat all. Itsagreatgame is right, the throwing mechanics of a pitcher and a catcher are very different. My youngest son also has the same predicament, played last night and caught 5 innings, he is 8. He is considered to be one of the top pitchers on the team, he has worked hard, but he is the starting catcher. The manager asked the assistant coach/pitching coach for the team if he could close the game. The answer was a strong, NO, not after catching 5 innings. I thank God that I have a good friend on the coaching staff that watches after him when I don't get asked.

I love pitching and catching and ive done both for the last five years. I've never gotten arm problems, and as long as you dont rediculously overdo it there is no reason not to do it at the hs level. Players should be playing where they are the best at and for me and some others that happens to be pitching and catching.

I let my oldest do both, however the rule was always pitch before you catch on any given day. That way he would always pitch on fresh legs. I think it is pitching on tired legs that leads to a breakdown in form that could lead to arm injury.

I dont like it i did it twice and catching takes a lot of energy out of you so sometimes it makes it hard to concentrate for the strike zone. It also drains you for future games if you arent careful.

Rock,

The issue is "pitchers who also catch".

Do not be deceived by a redirection of the issue.

The issue is not catchers throws vs. ss throws.

The issue is - whether it is a good idea to be a pitcher and a catcher?

IMO - The answer is no for 99.9% of those put into that spot - and 100% for draftable pitchers - who stink at catching.

Pay attention - sometimes the redirection is subtle and effective.

istinthegame,

I will agree with you if the person that is catching is not the greatest catcher. If u can't catch, then u don't need to be back there.

Rock

Ask them if the difference between a ss who pitches and a catcher who pitches isn't the throws form ss or from catching then what is it?

The equipment?

A throw is a throw is a throw.

Because the "proper" catcher throwing motion resembles a pitcher as much or more than any other position on the field.

You'll notice rock, that they like to pad their argument with things like "this pitcher is a horrible catcher". They don't like comparing apples to apples.

Ozzir: Once again - the throwing mechanics as a whole are radically different between pitcher and catcher. In general, as a whole, the overall mechanics of the two position(s)are radically different. A throw is not a throw when comparing the two. Not even close, no matter how you look at it. You can't compare apples to oranges, and in this case in my opinion we're comparing different food groups all together, so to speak.

You brought up eqipment: I promise you regardless of the new gear that allows for better airflow / 'breathing' the catcher will usually deplete a lot more energy than any other guy on the field, except maybe the pitcher - especially if it's 98 degree heat. Fungo mentioned recovery time in an earlier post. This absolutlely comes in to play for both positions, regardless of whether you pitch and catch in the same game or on different days. The lower the level of competition, the more true this statement becomes. Think about it.

In my opinion, if it is a good idea for pitchers to be catching or catchers to be pitching we would see a lot more of it at all levels, and the fact is we don't.

One last thought: We used to hear catcher's gear referred to as "the tools of ignorance". Somewhat politically incorrect these days and not quite as valid a statement any more because of advances in training methodology and sports medicine in general. The term had little to do with the gear itself - it was more about the position and the toll it takes on the body. It still has a lot of truth to it, though.

quote:

Originally posted by ozzir:


A throw is a throw is a throw.

Sorry - but you are wrong IMO.

And the catcher/ss/etc... comparison has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Just a diversion from the issue.

During my sons time as a catcher there have been 2 instances I can recall where he complained about the position...one was a sweltering day in a tournament in CT....ground was literally radiating heat...each and every time he got into his position the heat that emminated off the ground was ungodly and under all that gear he was sweating bullets...had to keep reminding im to drink, drink, drink...so now you want him to pitch??????
Second, was a day that it seemed that every pitcher who went into the game had control problems....he had 2 black and blue marks on the inner aspect of each thigh...one huge one on his forearm...he was dead from the workout....and now you want him to pitch????
People easily forget that for every pitch thrown a catcher is throwing it back...that includes warmups, pitcher changes, etc....asking someone who has literally killed himself behind the plate, who maybe somewhat dehyrated from his extensive catching and is generally pretty banged up to begin with to now enter as a pitcher is beyond comprehension...if you want to pitch then pitch and perhaps play another position...if you want to catch then catch and maybe play third when not needed behind the plate...but to play both is insanity...oh, and BTW, when my son first started catching our pediatrician instructed him to never pitch and catch...sure way to ruin a good arm and then both positions are mute

Folks I would like to introduce you to the apparent Alter Ego of Teacherman--ozzir--same attitude same IP address so I have been informed

I just cannot understand why a "grown" man has to have mulitple ID's on a website---

Maybe because the other one didn't work.

Your question should be referred to the head pooh bah.

If she didn't want me to post by not allowing one to work, why does she let another from the same IP address work?

And you are now located in California?

Geeze dude - how many ids you have now? LOL

You should be a piano player with fast fingers like that.

ozzir/Teacherman,

Since you have asked, I'll explain. I did not permanently delete your Teacherman posting rights, I gave you a "timeout". This was actually in response to one of your earlier posts where you demanded "MN-Mom ... DO YOUR JOB!" I reviewed the thread where your request appeared, and the history and pattern of posts by the participants. And I decided that a "timeout" was in order for the Teacherman ID.

I don't want to say much more about this topic publicly, because honestly my philosophy about negative behavior (whether in children or adults) is to try to correct the situation with a minimum of fuss, and save the extra attention for reinforcement or appreciation of positive actions and contributions. But please feel free to send me a private message if you wish to discuss further.