pitching help

tpg

quote:

Why do you hold such a strong opinion when it has such a flimsy basis?

What part is flimsy? The part were Carl Hubbells arm was permanently disfigured because of the screwball? That is real.

Mike Marshall teaches the weakest delivery known to man... You yourself said you dont agree with his mechanics, yet you take it as gospel when he preaches the screwball.

"The screwball's an unnatural pitch. Nature never intended a man to turn his hand like that throwing rocks at a bear."-Carl Hubbell


The screwball is not safe. Pronation should and will happen after a ball is released. To pronate during release is unnatural and flat out dangerous to teach children.....Beware of angry fathers, I know these teachings would not be well recieved here in Texas.

This pitch should be taught to a pitcher who is about to get released as a last resort. Not as a staple in a 12 year olds arsenal.

quote:

Originally posted by Dtiger:
I see your point... I'm sorry but there just has to be a better way. Good Lord, can everyone stop? If you think he's an idiot, congrats, leave him alone... Arguing on this board is worse than arguing with a mother... it ain't working.

No, Dtiger. I tried to defend the guy earlier but when he says our opinions don't matter that's where I tell him I DON'T THINK SO. Why the hell is he posting if he doesn't want our opinions? Just to **** us off and make a name for himself? Well, I hope not! If so, contratulations TPG, you are like that girly Honda that cut me off this morning on the freeway, I'm SO proud of your manhood!

On the other hand, he has the chance to take back what he said and apologize for that remark. In which case, I will resume listening to what he has to say.

I agree Bum... I guess I just read everything without truly thinking about it now... because most is bicker.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:

The problem is that even though people should not take what is posted on the internet as "gospel" there are way too many who do take it "as gospel".

I respect your opinion and concern for others but I don't think it's your place on this forum to worry about saving others from themselves. You should
really give people more credit. You sound like the
folks that blame fast food restaurants for making
people fat instead of blaming the people that eat
there. Please don't anyone head off on a fast food
eating tangent.....I'm just saying we choose to read
on this forum. Let us decide what we believe. We don't need you to protect us.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
The sharp pronation required for a true screwball is not good for the elbow.

Would you be more specific (post a pic maybe) as to what you mean by "sharp pronation?"

In my spare time, I do a lot of baseball action photography. After starting to take photos, it became clear to me that pronation is a very natural movement.
I have a pic of a pitcher throwing easily to 1b following a come backer and his arm is very pronated on the throw to 1st. I have pics that show ss, 2b, of, etc all pronating after normal fielding throws - not pitching. I'm thinking that if this is such a natural movement that occurs without trying, how can it be bad to emphasize it as in the screwball. I realize this is counter to traditional historic teaching which I believe may be more myth than reality that is disclosed with video.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
6) No shutdown of PITCHING beyond 7 months

I have never heard of an injury solely related to long-tossing.

Pls provide some detail on what you see about pitching that is bad but throwing (long toss) is ok. What do you view about pitching as more stressful or otherwise not good year-round?

Also, when long-tossing does Bum Jr. throw less than, more than, or same as the count of pitches he would throw when pitching?
Thx.

Pitching I view as more of a tear-down process which requires adequate recovery time. Long-toss I see as more of a build-up process that creates a proper arm stretch, builds arm speed and ensures maximum range of the throwing motion.

When long-tossing, I think I counted about 100-120 tosses. He starts flat-footed, about 15-20 feet from his partner, starting in the power position then lightly tossing to his target (partner in catcher position down low). Then he works ever-increasing distances every 5-8 throws. He first uses a crossover step (rear leg behind his front foot before stepping into the throw, then crow-hopping when necessary). He works to maximum distance, increasing the distance about every 5-10 throws, then works backwards until he repeats where he started. When working in, he concentrates on throwing for maximum distance on every throw..throwing through the target.. his throws tend to sail high, forcing him to "pull down" to regain his release point. Once he gets to less than 60 ft. he steadily reduces the velocity until he is back to where he started. Alan Jaeger teaches an approach like this, I believe.

During season, he lightly tosses after game day, then day 2 long-toss, day 3 bullpen, day four long-toss, day 5 light throwing, day 6 pitch again. If he pitches on a once a week schedule, he takes day 4 off, long-tosses day 5 and 6, light throws day 7, and pitches day 8 (one week later).

He throws more than any kid I know. The philosophy is throw more often, not less often. He also does band work 4-5x week, cardio 4-5x week, core and plyometrics.. with weight training in the off-season.

His arm never gets sore using this method, not even after he pitches! During starts, he drinks gatorade before the game and mostly water and 1/2 to 3/4 gatorade (to replenish salt) during the game.
He shuts down from bullpens from late October to about late Jan to Feb 1st. But he is throwing (long-tossing about 5x week).

quote:

Originally posted by handyrandy:
AMSI research

handy - I'd love to read the AMSI research comparing football and baseball first hand. Is this info posted on their site where you can provide a link or can you provide detail on a book or paper they've published?

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
TPG,

Throwing slowly allows more movement ? Basic physics, read up, you seem taken by research.

I'm no physics expert but Newton says a body in motion will stay in motion until acted on by another force. This means that a pitch going *faster* in a straight line will require more directional force, a.k.a. spin, than a slower pitch - meaning a slow pitch with the same velocity spin as the fast pitch will have more movement. How do you see it?

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
To pronate during release is unnatural and flat out dangerous to teach children.....

I finally made it thru this whole thread. Actually some good discussion mixed amongst the personal attacks.

I'm still forming my own opinion on pronation. I'd like to see someone that states pronation is dangerous to explain what *exactly* is the damage it causes. Elbow, ucl, shoulder, rotator, etc. Not just anecdotal evidence and hearsay but real details. If a sports ortho told you it's bad, did you ask why?

Conversely, what makes pronation "natural?"
Same questions for supination.
Pls just provide details and don't badger each other.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
How often do you hear people being taught to "throw the circle" when throwing a circle change?

When they are taught to do that, they are being taught to pronate.

How many people object to the advice to "throw the circle"?

TPG offered this question about "throw the circle" and no one answered. I think he's right. Throwing the circle is a technique that forces pronation to create arm-side movement. Is this incorrect? Why?

Thks for the reply. Great details on Bum Jr's regimen between starts.
One question - What's the max distance he works up to when long-tossing?
Any difference in seasion versus off season?

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
Pitching I view as more of a tear-down process which requires adequate recovery time. Long-toss I see as more of a build-up process that creates a proper arm stretch, builds arm speed and ensures maximum range of the throwing motion.

I hear you but still not getting the detail I'm looking for. Why is pitching "tear-down" but long-toss is "build-up?" Pitching is shorter distance but high velocity. Long toss being longer requires the high velocity to achieve the long throw. If pitch count is not overtly high, why can't pitching be "build-up?" If long-toss has high count of too long distance seems it would be "tear-down" and also require recovery. What about pitching at 75-80% to work on location, mechanics, etc. - still tear down? By tear-down are you concerned about elbow, shoulder, ligaments/tendons/muscles?
Is it the mound that is significant versus flat ground? I've seen contradictions from the "experts" on the mound. Some say the mound is less stressful than flat and some say flat is less stressful than mound. Who do you believe? Why?

Rock Dad, check out this link for more information:

Long Toss

ROCK dad

quote:

TPG offered this question about "throw the circle" and no one answered. I think he's right. Throwing the circle is a technique that forces pronation to create arm-side movement. Is this incorrect? Why?

Pronation is only forced on a screwball. The change needs to have fastball handspeed, and it needs to come out of the hand like a fastball....not a screwball. The change will get ASR if the pitcher makes an effort to stay on top of the ball with the ball held offcenter toward the pinkie side of the hand. Pronating at release is ONLY for screwballs, and is dangerous to teach.

"TPG offered this question about "throw the circle" and no one answered"...One reason no one answered TPG is that he retreated eeerrr I mean retired from the HSBBW prematurely.....I know he is still watching though, and I hope he returns.

Rock dad

quote:

Conversely, what makes pronation "natural?"
Same questions for supination.
Pls just provide details and don't badger each other.

Nothing, niether one is natural. IMO if you try forcing one or another its not natural.

Rock, how exactly would you throw a screwball slower with the same amount of spin ? While I agree if it were possible the slower pitch with the same spin would break more, just how is this accomplished with a screwball ? If you are slowing the arm down where do you make up for the spin? Remember the context of these comments (50 -60 MPH screwball w/ 12 in of movement)Not like a CB you can snap off. BTW pronation that occurs after release is a natural motion, you really got to force it to create break on a screwball.

quote:

Originally posted by Rock Dad:

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
TPG,

Throwing slowly allows more movement ? Basic physics, read up, you seem taken by research.

I'm no physics expert but Newton says a body in motion will stay in motion until acted on by another force. This means that a pitch going *faster* in a straight line will require more directional force, a.k.a. spin, than a slower pitch - meaning a slow pitch with the same velocity spin as the fast pitch will have more movement. How do you see it?

rock, just do a search for asmi and you will be able to go to their site. Then just click on where you want to go.

Rock, look at the rate, degree & timing of pronation. A screwball requires pronating faster/harder than a fastball (for those fb throwers who pronate).

And the pronation for a fb tends to occur after release, as dm has already pointed out.

This is evident if you watch the spin on the ball. A fb has backspin, not sidespin (e.g., as in a screwball).

How can pronation be bad? Pretty much anything done to excess and at the wrong time can be bad.

quote:

Originally posted by Rock Dad:
I'm no physics expert but Newton says a body in motion will stay in motion until acted on by another force. This means that a pitch going *faster* in a straight line will require more directional force, a.k.a. spin, than a slower pitch - meaning a slow pitch with the same velocity spin as the fast pitch will have more movement. How do you see it?

You are neglecting the fact that throwing harder also means a higher spin rate. It is the spin on a screwball that makes it move in the horizontal plane (e.g., the spin creates an unbalanced aerodynamic force sometimes referred to as the Magnus effect). The less spin on a screwball, the less horizontal movement. The more spin on a screwball, the more horizontal movement. The physics is correct.

I haven't read all the posts very carefully, so I may repeat some stuff... I saw the comment about throwing the circle. Although I'm not 100% sure what it means (so correct me if you feel like my interpretation is wrong), I feel like last fall I began doing that and it helped my circle change TONS. I went from a 2-seem, breaking ball pitcher, to a 2-seem change up pitcher with good breaking stuff. I did not do anything weird with my wrist... the arm movement easily created the drop down and in towards righties... Does this sound like throwing an arm circle???

Rock Dad,

Please accept my apologies in advance if I'm wrong. Your posts sound like The Pain Guy. You're not a morph, are you?

On the original post was asked: what are the best workouts or ways to improve core strength, stamina, and velocity?
IMHO I sincerely believe too many answers have been completely off track. I believe the best way is to get stronger and to properly get stronger one must have a CASE SPECIFIC PLAN. To get a CSP, I suggest going to a Physiologist that has the proper testing equipment for individual evaluation. Otherwise you run the risk of going through some coaches GENERIC exercise routine that most likely will NOT let you reach your peak performance. Getting in touch with an Exercise Scientist might not be a bad idea either. They will be able to map out an exercise plan from the CASE SPECIFIC EVALUATION that should get you to your peak performance in the shortest amount of time. I am not now or will ever be a name dropper but I know for a FACT that the winningest coaches in collegiate sports and professional athletes use these folks for attaining peak strength and performance. They sort of take the guess work out of training.

quote:

Originally posted by handyrandy:
And here is one for you..AMSI tested and compared the forces and exerted on the shoulder and elbow between throwing a football and a baseball. They found that, for a variety of reasons(mainly the size of the ball, length of the motion, etc) the forces exerted on a QB's arm were significantly less than those on a pitcher's arm.

Thanks for the reply pointing to the study. I had seen this b4 but forgot about it. I reread the study several times and I don't interpret the info the same as you. ASMI performed the study to evaluate cross-training of baseball and football for pitchers and QBs.

ASMI *never* says that "...forces exerted on a QB's arm were significantly less than those on a pitcher's arm." They do say that pitcher's create "greater rotational velocities of the arm and trunk." They go on to say QBs compensate for this by "rotating the shoulders sooner."

Going into the study, the hypothesis was that QBs could increase velocity by cross-training with pitching. This suggests they expected from the outset that pitchers generate greater velocity.

One could interpret that greater velocities imply greater forces but given that they also say pitchers have greater "internal shoulder rotation" the velocity gain makes sense and shouldn't be interpreted as creating undue force on the shoulder.

On the other hand, ASMI says that QBs compensate for the heavier ball with "greater elbow flexiion and shoulder horizontal adduction", i.e "leading with the elbow", which could be interpreted as the QB having greater force on the elbow than the pitcher.

Here's the link to the study for others:
http://www.asmi.org/asmiweb/research/usedarticles/baseballvsfootball.htm

Reread the study and see if you disagree with my comments. The study generally is about comparing the mechanics of baseball and football highlighting the differences. There is *no* smoking gun result that says the force on a QB's arm is significantly less than a pitcher.

Some thoughts on why QBs don't have the arm problems of pitchers:
- QBs throw less than pitchers
- QBs don't throw different pitches
- QBs don't always fully exert themselves when throwing (screen passes, etc.)

My son doesn't play football but we do throw the football a lot during the baseball offseason for cross-training and at times for warmups. I picked this up after Nolan Ryan began doing it when with the Rangers. Works great for my oldest (16yr) but my younger son (11yr) has more problems with the mechanical differences.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
Rock dad

quote:

Conversely, what makes pronation "natural?"
Same questions for supination.

Nothing, niether one is natural. IMO if you try forcing one or another its not natural.

When I say pronation is natural, I mean it occurs simply as a consequence of the normal throwing motion. It doesn't have to be forced. I believe this is some of the problem with the slider. It works to prevent the natural pronation that the body wants to do. Do you see it otherwise?

I disagree with some of your assessment of the changeup. Clearly it requires fastball arm speed. That's what creates the deception. But if it came out of the hand like a fastball then it would, well, be a fastball.

I don't think of the [circle] change as being held "offcenter" as much I think it is centered at a different location in the hand. Semantics, I guess. I do believe "throwing the circle" is baseball lingo for a technique that generates early pronation. Maybe coaches should just say "pronate" instead cuz I think many pitchers [and coaches] don't really know what "throw the circle" means, they just say it cuz everybody else does. What does "throw the circle" mean to you?

What do you mean by "stay on top of the ball?" Can you put that in terms of the hand does X and the wrist does Y and the arm does Z ? "Stay on top of the ball" may be interpreted different than you mean for it to be.

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
Rock, how exactly would you throw a screwball slower with the same amount of spin ? While I agree if it were possible the slower pitch with the same spin would break more, just how is this accomplished with a screwball ? If you are slowing the arm down where do you make up for the spin? Remember the context of these comments (50 -60 MPH screwball w/ 12 in of movement)Not like a CB you can snap off. BTW pronation that occurs after release is a natural motion, you really got to force it to create break on a screwball.

quote:

Originally posted by Rock Dad:

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
TPG,

Throwing slowly allows more movement ? Basic physics, read up, you seem taken by research.

I'm no physics expert but Newton says a body in motion will stay in motion until acted on by another force. This means that a pitch going *faster* in a straight line will require more directional force, a.k.a. spin, than a slower pitch - meaning a slow pitch with the same velocity spin as the fast pitch will have more movement. How do you see it?

I think our little physics discussion is going nowhere. Sorry I started it,,,,,er,,, actually you started it...anyway, I was really honing in on your statement, "Throwing slowly allows more movement?" This caught my attention because slower pitches have more movement all the time, right?

I don't see the screwball as different than other pitches that break. You use the same arm spead but by way of grip, pronation, supination, etc. force is applied to the ball in a manner to impart spin rather than forward movement, thus generating movement.

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
BTW pronation that occurs after release is a natural motion, you really got to force it to create break on a screwball.

I'm with you on that "natural motion" idea. Seems the question then is about when pronation occurs, before or after release. What is it about pronation prior to release that bothers you? The problem is that during the arm acceleration phase of the pitching motion, the ucl in the elbow is bearing the brunt of the force. I think some folks believe that pronation can relieve some of the force on the ucl, transferring it elsewhere to a stronger part of the arm.

You're suggesting that pronation causes some form of injury. I get that. At the same time, you're not offering an approach to relieve the burden on the ucl. Maybe there's not one...... Your thoughts?

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
Rock Dad,

Please accept my apologies in advance if I'm wrong. Your posts sound like The Pain Guy. You're not a morph, are you?

Funny. No, not a morph. Just a dad down here in Rockwall, Texas. Would rather be in Ok as my son is there playing the the Mickey Mantle WS.
[shameless plug] This is him: http://samballew.smugmug.com/gallery/2563311#134873477
Some reason people expect me to work instead of traveling to ball games all the time....

I can't say I disagree with everything TPG says. I listen to what everyone says, read and listen to anything and everyone I can, then rattle it around in my head and try to form some conclusions.

Long ago, I read about how Charlie Lau started using high-speed video to study hitting. In doing so, he began to debunk some long standing teachings about hitting. Seems that hitters didn't really do the things people thought they did. You just couldn't see it with the naked eye. I think the same holds true for pitching. For years, folks in Olympic sports have studied swimming, track and field, and so on in great detail looking for an edge. Baseball has been slow to take up those same techniques afforded by technology.

In baseball, us coaches throw out many terms that don't mean much to others or they get interpreted incorrectly. I found this out when telling young players the same things over and over until one day I figured out they weren't disobeying, they just didn't know what I meant. Anyway, that led me to begin being more specific in what I say and asking others to do the same. So, I ask a lot of questions and if someone tells me something I want to really understand what they mean and importantly, why. If they don't know why, then maybe they shouldn't believe it.

Now, my wife does say I'm a pain quite often......

Thanks. Sorry I asked but just wanted to make sure. Keep your opinions rolling.. it's great for HSBBW!

Rock,

Slower pitches don't always move more unless you're considering gravity. I said a slower pitch with the same amount of spin would move more than a faster pitch with the same spin. You can't throw a screwball slower with the same amount of spin as armspeed is the overriding factor in how much spin is imparted. I never suggested specific damage caused by pronation. Pronation during the decel is thought to relieve stress on the ucl. I just don't think teaching a 12 yo to throw a screwball or a CB is the right thing to do. Having pitched I found that the screwball was at best a very uncomfortable pitch to throw. I belive kids should develop their FB and learn to command the zone then change speeds and learn to command the zone with either pitch. This should take a pitcher thru at least age 14 or 15 with plenty of time still to develop a 3rd pitch. Many will never get that far. IMO this will give them the best chance to excel at the higher levels (HS and above) where W's and L's may really mean something.

quote:

Originally posted by Rock Dad:
I disagree with some of your assessment of the changeup. ... But if it came out of the hand like a fastball then it would, well, be a fastball.

The last statement overlooks the effect of the different grip (e.g., number of fingers in contact with the ball, location of the contact, surface area of the contact, tightness of the finger grip, "lever arm" length, etc.).

quote:

I don't think of the [circle] change as being held "offcenter" as much I think it is centered at a different location in the hand. Semantics, I guess. I do believe "throwing the circle" is baseball lingo for a technique that generates early pronation. Maybe coaches should just say "pronate" instead cuz I think many pitchers [and coaches] don't really know what "throw the circle" means, they just say it cuz everybody else does. What does "throw the circle" mean to you?

Rock Dad,

Chris also used this discription. If I heard "throw the circle". I would think someone is telling someone to throw a circle change.

What else does "throw the circle" mean? I've never heard it used as some kind of instructional thing.

To me... A better helpful discription for the circle change would be to throw with the ring finger.

When I first heard this discription, thought that someone actually thinks the circle change is released with the "OK"/"circle" behind the ball.

Anyway, if anyone knows... What does "throw the circle" mean? And is that term really used very often?

I've heard the term "throw the circle (at the target)" and I've always interpretted it to mean throw the ball with the circle facing the target.

quote:

Originally posted by Rock Dad:
Some thoughts on why QBs don't have the arm problems of pitchers:
- QBs throw less than pitchers
- QBs don't throw different pitches
- QBs don't always fully exert themselves when throwing (screen passes, etc.)

Another reason is the body protects itself by adjusting the length of the lever (i.e. the arm) according to the weight of the object being thrown. So, with a football being heavier than a baseball, the hand will remain closer to the body when throwing a football than when throwing a baseball. This is consistent with your previous comment about QB's having more elbow flexion when they throw. This also has an effect on timing which you alluded to when you mentioned the ASMI study reporting that a QB's shoulders rotate sooner.

Rock Dad, you have a PM.

TheRockGuy

quote:

I disagree with some of your assessment of the changeup. Clearly it requires fastball arm speed. That's what creates the deception. But if it came out of the hand like a fastball then it would, well, be a fastball.

Im confident that I know how to throw a change and teach one as well. I dont care if you agree with me or not. I enjoyed bantering with Chris, but bantering with two of them is to much.

If you want to teach a screwball because you feel Chris is right then fine...I dont care. But, I will only argue with one of you.

Roger,

Maybe I have heard the term before, but think it is confusing. I think your post reminded me what is confusing.

Does anyone teach throwing the circle change with the circle? (behind the ball)

The circle change is thrown like a fastball, but instead of the index and middle finger, it is thrown with the middle, ring and pinky fingers. I've always had luck by getting pitchers to concentrate on throwing it with their ring finger. (not that it totally happens like that)

Why not the term "throw the ring finger" at the target" That would be less confusing.

If this is a new pitch... Not until the control is mastered should a pitcher try to get additional tail or pronate. IMO

Surely, the term "throw the circle" means throwing it (the circle) down, but on the side of the ball... not behind the ball.

If anyone thinks I'm wrong, please let me know, because that would mean I've been teaching this pitch wrong for a long time now. Then again, I've seen some real good ones, so doubt if I would change my mind.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Roger,

Maybe I have heard the term before, but think it is confusing. I think your post reminded me what is confusing.

Does anyone teach throwing the circle change with the circle? (behind the ball)

The circle change is thrown like a fastball, but instead of the index and middle finger, it is thrown with the middle, ring and pinky fingers. I've always had luck by getting pitchers to concentrate on throwing it with their ring finger. (not that it totally happens like that)

Why not the term "throw the ring finger" at the target" That would be less confusing.

If this is a new pitch... Not until the control is mastered should a pitcher try to get additional tail or pronate. IMO

Surely, the term "throw the circle" means throwing it (the circle) down, but on the side of the ball... not behind the ball.

If anyone thinks I'm wrong, please let me know, because that would mean I've been teaching this pitch wrong for a long time now. Then again, I've seen some real good ones, so doubt if I would change my mind.

IMO, the only thing different in the two styles you mention would be the direction of the movement, since the ball would be coming out of your hand differently. Maddux throws many different change-ups and they all move in different directions and look like different pitches on the way to the batter (from the hitter's perspective).

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Does anyone teach throwing the circle change with the circle? (behind the ball)

Throwing with the circle behind the ball would mean the hand is supinated like when throwing a curveball. I've never heard of throwing a change-up that way.

quote:

The circle change is thrown like a fastball, but instead of the index and middle finger, it is thrown with the middle, ring and pinky fingers.

With the young pitchers I work with, I teach them to throw the change with the middle and ring fingers on top of the ball. It does take a slight amount of pronation to put the middle and ring fingers on top but that also puts the index finger on the side of the ball more so they can't cheat and use that finger.

quote:

Why not the term "throw the ring finger" at the target" That would be less confusing.

That would be just as confusing to me. I simply tell my pitchers to keep middle and ring fingers on top of the ball as they otherwise would the index and middle fingers when throwing the fastball.

I suppose anything is possible... But... Does anyone anywhere throw a circle change up with the circle/OK (index finger and thumb) behind the ball at release? In other words, throw it with the thumb!

I have never seen this! I don't think Maddux or any other good pitcher can do that. But I've been wrong before.

This actually seems kind of silly to even talk about.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
This actually seems kind of silly to even talk about.

Yep...