pitching help

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Originally posted by PGStaff:

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I don't think of the [circle] change as being held "offcenter" as much I think it is centered at a different location in the hand. Semantics, I guess. I do believe "throwing the circle" is baseball lingo for a technique that generates early pronation. Maybe coaches should just say "pronate" instead cuz I think many pitchers [and coaches] don't really know what "throw the circle" means, they just say it cuz everybody else does. What does "throw the circle" mean to you?

If I heard "throw the circle". I would think someone is telling someone to throw a circle change.

What else does "throw the circle" mean? I've never heard it used as some kind of instructional thing.

When I first heard this discription, thought that someone actually thinks the circle change is released with the "OK"/"circle" behind the ball.

Anyway, if anyone knows... What does "throw the circle" mean? And is that term really used very often?

My interpretation of "throw the circle" is that the term "circle" is referring to the "O" formed by the thumb and ring finger. "Throw the circle" then suggests treating the "O" as the point of reference that should be directed towards the target, requiring a slight pronation at release.

I picked up the nearest 2 books beside me to see what the authors say. Here are the relevant sections:

"Coaching Pitchers", 3rd Ed., Joe McFarland
"The ball is also held off center. The ball should be held out on the tips of the fingers and thumb to allow max movement. When throwing the circle change, the hand automatically comes over the ball, creating a screwball-type movement. This movement should just happen naturally and not be forced. The pitcher should use the same mechanics and, most important, the same arm speed as for the fastball."

"The Pitching Edge", 2nd Ed., Tom House
"The circle change is the same as a screwball, but the "O" should be thrown directly at the catcher."

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"The Pitching Edge", 2nd Ed., Tom House
"The circle change is the same as a screwball, but the "O" should be thrown directly at the catcher."

House is wrong. The Screwball is not the same thing as a change up. Maybe he can cover that in the next book that he sells you.

Cole Hamels has a great change. At what point does this resemble a screwball?

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Originally posted by deemax:
House is wrong. The Screwball is not the same thing as a change up. Maybe he can cover that in the next book that he sells you.

And dm is right...

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Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
I never suggested specific damage caused by pronation. Pronation during the decel is thought to relieve stress on the ucl. I just don't think teaching a 12 yo to throw a screwball or a CB is the right thing to do. Having pitched I found that the screwball was at best a very uncomfortable pitch to throw.

I thought you were suggesting potential injury or damage by the tone of your post and now saying, "...don't think....is the right thing to do."

I understand what you mean by "uncomfortable pitch to throw." As I learn more, my thinking is moving towards feeling that the pitch is difficult to learn/master, but difficult does not imply causing injury. As I see more and more video and pics of natural pronation during throwing, I'm beginning to think experimenting with the pitch earlier is not bad. Particularly if one learns to throw the circle change with good ASM. The screwball seems to be an extension of that. In tennis, players pronate naturally when serving correctly and of course, there is no release, the racket remains in the hand. This is young players also as everyone is taught to server correctly.
Checkout these shots: (apologies to those that don't like still pics)
(pitcher throwing FB or CH)

(1st baseman fielding bunt and throw to 1b)

Tennis serve link: http://www.operationdoubles.com/pronation_tennis_instruction.htm

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Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
I belive kids should develop their FB and learn to command the zone then change speeds and learn to command the zone with either pitch. This should take a pitcher thru at least age 14 or 15 with plenty of time still to develop a 3rd pitch.

Can't argue with this being the safe approach. But I'm reminded of a quote in "The Pitching Edge" by a biomechanist. A guy that makes his living studying body mechanics. He says, "No one pitch, thrown properly, puts any more stress on the arm than any other pitch."

Question for you. We've all heard throwing CB young is bad. Is throwing a football young bad? If throwing the football is not bad, why can't a young pitcher throw a CB with the same arm mechanics (supination) as throwing the football. Each, baseball and football, still end with pronation at deceleration.

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Originally posted by deemax:
TheRockGuy

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I disagree with some of your assessment of the changeup. Clearly it requires fastball arm speed. That's what creates the deception. But if it came out of the hand like a fastball then it would, well, be a fastball.

Im confident that I know how to throw a change and teach one as well. I dont care if you agree with me or not. I enjoyed bantering with Chris, but bantering with two of them is to much.

If you want to teach a screwball because you feel Chris is right then fine...I dont care. But, I will only argue with one of you.

You know dee - how bout you don't start that **** with me. I'm not here to convince you of anything. I'm here to further my own knowledge. Offering my opinions is simply to further the conversation to generate discussion so we can all learn about other people's experiences, training, opinions, and such. Isn't that why we're here? To have civil conversations about baseball? So share your baseball knowledge with me. I welcome it. If we don't agree, then we don't agree. That's fine. Gentlemen can do that as they say. Leave your arguments on the floor beside you and let's just talk baseball. To do otherwise is petty.

BTW, I'm perfectly capable of forming my own opinions. I don't much of anything just because one guy says it's right.

This is a pretty interesting discussion, guys, and though I don't remember the initial inquiry in the thread, I'll throw my two cents in on a couple items in this discussion.

A couple of the major differences between throwing a football and pitching are the result of the football having more weight. A QB will take a shorter stride and have shorter 'arm action' (compared to a pitcher) due to the heavier ball.

As for the circle change, if I heard somebody say throw the circle, I would assume they want me to throw the circle change.

I work with pitchers virtually every day of the year. An advanced pitcher, or a pretty good high school/college pitcher who has decent command of his circle change sometimes may need to 'subtract' from that changeup. What I will sometimes teach these pitchers to do is 'lead with the circle'. This will usually take more mph off and also appear to have a bit more sink/screwball action than his normal changeup.

I don't do this with young kids, but sometimes with good college pitchers who already have some command of the change and/or need to take more velocity off the change.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:

quote:

"The Pitching Edge", 2nd Ed., Tom House
"The circle change is the same as a screwball, but the "O" should be thrown directly at the catcher."

House is wrong. The Screwball is not the same thing as a change up. Maybe he can cover that in the next book that he sells you.

Cole Hamels has a great change. At what point does this resemble a screwball?

Thanks for the comment. Hamels does have the change working. I'd like to see an interview with him discussing how he throws it.

I don't know that House is wrong as much as the writing in that section of the book is incomplete. Understanding what he means requires reading what he says about the screwball. I didn't include that in my previous post and won't put it all here cuz it's lengthy. But some of what he says is that the screwball is thrown with fastball arm speed. That's the same as the change. He says the screwball is considered an off-speed pitch. That's the same as the change.

You sound like you may not agree with House much. Aside from yourself, who do you consider authorities on pitching that you generally agree with their ideas and approaches?

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Originally posted by Rock Dad:
Question for you. We've all heard throwing CB young is bad. Is throwing a football young bad? If throwing the football is not bad, why can't a young pitcher throw a CB with the same arm mechanics (supination) as throwing the football.

Huh? You don't supinate when throwing a football.

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Originally posted by Texan:
Huh? You don't supinate when throwing a football.

Texan,
I was thinking about this position here on the QB:


As the arm comes forward the palm is turned in, fingers on the outside, thumb underneath and to the inside. Holding a fball now it seems the palm is only slightly turned in but its not like throwing a fb with the wrist right behind the ball. There is some degree of supination, don't you think?

not when your hand comes thru to release-it pronates

No, I would not say that is not supination. The plane of the palm is still parallel with the plane formed by the two bones of the forearm. And as hr pointed out, there is pronation at the end.

To quote others who have used this description “Throw the circle” … to the plate.

I too would think “throw the circle” would mean throw the circle change, but that is not what that term is describing. It has been used as an instructional term rather than defining a certain type of pitch.

I really wish someone would tell us what people mean when they say “throw the circle at or to the plate”. That is the description I don’t understand.

At release don’t we throw the entire hand in some fashion to the plate. And don’t all good pitchers maintain fastball arm speed on all their pitches?

Some have said that the circle can be thrown evidently with the OK/circle behind the ball. I’m not sure anyone can do that effectively. And wouldn’t that put the hand in somewhat of a slider position at release point? How could this pitch have arm side run/tail rotation?

I understand turning and adjusting the circle itself, but never is it behind the ball at release. So what do the “experts” mean when they use the term throw the circle as an instructional thing when throwing the circle change? Can anyone explain that? Maybe there’s a simple explanation I’m not thinking of!

Rock Dad,

That young pitcher in your photo... How many MLB pitchers get in that same exact position? Is that position right after release or after recoiling? He sure has a flexable arm.

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Originally posted by Rock Dad:
"The Pitching Edge", 2nd Ed., Tom House
"The circle change is the same as a screwball, but the "O" should be thrown directly at the catcher."

I believe House currently teaches throwing the circle change with the typical circle grip and the screwball with a fastball grip. Both pitches are thrown with the same pronation and the same arm speed.

quote:

Originally posted by Rock Dad:

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
Huh? You don't supinate when throwing a football.

Texan,
I was thinking about this position here on the QB:


As the arm comes forward the palm is turned in, fingers on the outside, thumb underneath and to the inside. Holding a fball now it seems the palm is only slightly turned in but its not like throwing a fb with the wrist right behind the ball. There is some degree of supination, don't you think?

The hand being on the side of the ball instead of behind the ball is generally considered a position of supination. The real issue is when did the hand get into that position. Supinating during forward motion of the arm is what kills elbows. Supinate early - before the arm starts forward - to reduce the chance for injury.

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Originally posted by Texan:
No, I would not say that is not supination. The plane of the palm is still parallel with the plane formed by the two bones of the forearm.

Texan,

I've never heard supination described that way. Since both bones in the forearm (i.e. the radius and ulna) attach to the hand, it seems the hand and those two bones would always be in the same plane and, thus, you could never supinate according to that definition.

In actuality, as you pronate and supinate, those bones cross over/under one another. At some neutral point, the bones themselves would be parallel and the hand would be in the same plane as both bones.

Can you clarify what you think supination is? TIA!

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Originally posted by Rock Dad:
Question for you. We've all heard throwing CB young is bad. Is throwing a football young bad? If throwing the football is not bad, why can't a young pitcher throw a CB with the same arm mechanics (supination) as throwing the football. Each, baseball and football, still end with pronation at deceleration.

Two completely different motions. A CB doesn't end with pronation. A football is thrown from the ear in a linear manner, nothing like a CB. I'm sure a young, properly trained, and always supervised pitcher can safely throw CB's, the question should be why do it. If they have command and control of their FB & CU go for it. Just haven't run across many kids that advanced.

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Originally posted by Roger Tomas:

quote:

Originally posted by Rock Dad:
"The Pitching Edge", 2nd Ed., Tom House
"The circle change is the same as a screwball, but the "O" should be thrown directly at the catcher."

I believe House currently teaches throwing the circle change with the typical circle grip and the screwball with a fastball grip. Both pitches are thrown with the same pronation and the same arm speed.

RT, I know that House has an influence on how you work with pitchers. House is very bright and right about many things, however this is not one of them. Screwball's and Changeup's are drastically different through release. Screwball pronation HAS to be forced earlier then nature intended, and in excess. Changeup's do NOT need early pronation.

The two biggest fault's a youth pitcher faces when learning a change in my coaching experience are:
1. They dont get there hand behind the ball all the way, and end up releasing it like a slurve.
2. They try to finess through release and cut over the top of the ball in an attempt to make the ball drop with some arm side run.

IMO teaching a pitcher to pronate after release is a "no teach"......It happens anyway.

RT, you're correct - poor description & inadequate. I'll take a little more time this go-round.

How about this as being more concise & correct: "supination is rotating the hand so that the palm is facing upward."

In baseball, for a RHP & viewed from the pitcher's perspective, this would be rotation generally in the clockwise direction.

I left out a word or two - "initial" being one of them. The plane of the palm is still parallel with the initial plane formed by the two bones of the forearm and the palm. There has been no "twisting" of the wrist. Which still is probably not conveying things clearly.

When throwing a football, as the hand starts forward, the palm is facing the side. [I would not say that this constitutes supination in terms of our discussion here, BTW.] It forms a vertically oriented plane. As the arm is going forward, the palm remains in this plane. Then at some point the palm begins to turn so that the palm is facing downward (e.g., for a RH'er viewed from the thrower's perspective, a counterclockwise rotation also referred to as pronation).

quote:

"The Pitching Edge", 2nd Ed., Tom House
"The circle change is the same as a screwball, but the "O" should be thrown directly at the catcher."

Hate to sound stupid, but can someone explain what is meant here. Sorry, I don't have time to read the book.

And I have to agree with deemax... These are not the same pitches at all. The only thing they might have in common is the type of movement and direction of rotation. That's like saying a cut fastball, slider and curveball are the same pitch.

Another question... We know that many ML pitchers throw a circle change... How many current major league pitchers throw a screw ball?

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Originally posted by Texan:
How about this as being more concise & correct: "supination is rotating the hand so that the palm is facing upward."

I've always interpretted "supination" to mean only rotation in a certain direction (clockwise for a RHP). I do not interpret it to imply a specific range of rotation although most people, I believe, usually think of supination as rotation starting from the neutral, palm-down position and that would imply a starting point for a range of rotation.

So, supination (from RHP perspective) would include rotation in the range from palm-down to palm-in in addition to the range from palm-in to palm-up. Thus, you do need to supinate (early, hopefully) to throw a curve but you don't need to supinate beyond the palm-in position. I could be mistaken but this is how I thought most people interpretted "supination".

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Originally posted by deemax:
Screwball pronation HAS to be forced earlier then nature intended, and in excess. Changeup's do NOT need early pronation.

I agree. A change-up is still a change-up even if it doesn't have arm-side movement. It only needs reduced velocity to be considered a change-up. On the other hand a screwball, by definition, breaks to the arm-side or it really isn't a screwball.

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The two biggest fault's a youth pitcher faces when learning a change in my coaching experience are:
1. They dont get there hand behind the ball all the way, and end up releasing it like a slurve.

FWIW, House claims a failure to split the ball in half with thumb and middle finger often leads to supination. In an attempt to make the circle, most young kids will cheat and slide the thumb up the side of the ball toward the index finger because their hands are too small and lack the flexibility. Seems you and House are in agreement on this issue.

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2. They try to finess through release and cut over the top of the ball in an attempt to make the ball drop with some arm side run.

By "finess" do you mean they slow their arm down? I've certainly seen that. I'm constantly reminding my pitchers to keep their arm speed up and to throw through the ball. Even if they're pronating to impart force around the ball I still often tell them to throw through the ball because they will often bring the hand across in front of them instead of extending it toward the target and that reduces force through and around the ball as well as changes their release point and makes them inaccurate.

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IMO teaching a pitcher to pronate after release is a "no teach"......It happens anyway.

Agreed.

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Originally posted by PGStaff:
, but the "O" should be thrown directly at the catcher."

Hate to sound stupid, but can someone explain what is meant here. Sorry, I don't have time to read the book.



I think he means focus on DIRECTING the cicle (which will be on the inside of the ball) to the catcher and not really focusing on the ball itself. Like throwing those two fingers at the catcher instead of the ball. Hope this makes sense.

It is true change ups don't have to have arm side movement to be a change. Splitters are change-ups and they generally move straight down.

After all the funny theories here, micmeister is finally onto it. The circle stays on the side of the ball and you throw your index finger and thumb toward the catcher. How in the world could anyone think the circle ends up behind the ball? That's some serious supination.

Think about when you throw a fastball, the thumb, index, and middle fingers are actively involved in throwing the ball, they put pressure on the ball or gently squeeze it (however you want to say it) while your ring finger and pinky kind of go along for the ride. The same thing applies with the circle change. You should feel some tension in your thumb and index finger as they squeeze the side of the ball (for lack of a better way of saying it) and the middle finger, ring finger, and pinky are just along for the ride. They exude no pressure on the ball. This ensures that even with the fastball arm speed the change up is slow enough. The other benefit of "throwing the circle" is that it forces you to stay inside the pitch, and thus you cannot supinate. You can't supinate unless you lead with the pinky or ring finger. Depending on when you start pronating, you get a straight change vs. one that moves toward the pitcher's arm side. Emphasizing throwing with the ring finger could definitely lead to supination. I wouldn't say it that way to any of our pitchers though I admit it might still work for certain kids.

And another serious problem that many coaches obviously still have is the belief that a curve ball requires supination. You guys should really go look at some slow motion video of some MLB guys with good curve balls. Chris Carpenter has a great one and he's the one I've looked at most closely. As the old saying goes, a properly thrown curve ball is safe, which is true to an extent. I'm no scientist and so I can't speak to the effect of torque and arm speed even when the curve is thrown properly. A curve is thrown just like a karate chop. Ok, visual information is required here.... Stick your pitching arm out and make a bit of a throwing motion but do it like a karate chop, sort of like you do when you throw a football. Hold your "karate chop" out in front of you with your palm facing toward your glove side. Now, without moving your wrist, curve your fingers and thumb to hold a baseball. This is the grip and throwing motion for a curve ball. You do a karate chop and release the ball from between your index finger and thumb. It takes a lot of practice to find the release point. But if you look at some good video of a 12-6 curve ball, you'll see the karate chop move and then the hand pronates after release. No supination necessary. Using supination to throw a curve is what causes injuries, just like with a slider which does require supination.

Now there are times when Carpenter, for example, throws a curve that breaks more 1-to-7 or 2-to-8. In these cases, the arm still does not supinate. It's just a change of arm angle that gives the tilt. Carpenter (and all the others pitchers I've viewed) still release the curve in a karate chop motion and then pronate naturally into the follow through.

Jon

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A curve is thrown just like a karate chop.

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But if you look at some good video of a 12-6 curve ball, you'll see the karate chop move and then the hand pronates after release. No supination necessary.

I am curious to see a karate chop without supination.

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just like with a slider which does require supination.

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Originally posted by deemax:

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A curve is thrown just like a karate chop.

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But if you look at some good video of a 12-6 curve ball, you'll see the karate chop move and then the hand pronates after release. No supination necessary.

I am curious to see a karate chop without supination.

The wrist does not have to twist when throwing a curve.

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Originally posted by deemax:

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just like with a slider which does require supination.

yes...

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The wrist does not have to twist when throwing a curve.

What about a karate chop? Is it a karate chop without supination?....I have seen great curves thrown with pre-set supination, and without. Same is not true for the slider.

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yes...

No. The best sliders are released without supination. Inferior sliders are thrown with emphasis on supination.....I have numerous examples of the slider being released by the best in the business without supination....Do you have any examples of the slider being thrown at a high level with supination?

I have researched this extensivley. I once thought supination was the way to throw it, I threw it that way, and taught it that way as well. I was wrong, just like you are now.

No supination = cut fastball. Certainly better on the pitcher's arm than a slider.

I have nothing at all against a cut fastball. Can be an effective pitch, albeit somewhat hard to control for many. But it should be called a cut fastball and not called a slider.

And I'm not "wrong" about "throwing a slider". It's not even a pitch I would have a pitcher throw. Not arguing that it can't be effective, but it is not what I would teach a young pitcher. I don't teach pitches that require supination during the delivery.

As to the curve, karate chop and supination. Normally, when folks talk about supination or pronation and pitching, they are talking about wrist action during the delivery. Most definitions of supinating do not mention a starting reference. They merely define it as "rotating the hand so that the palm is facing upward." So by this definition the curve can be thrown without supinating, just as the karate chop is without supinating.

Question for you. We've all heard throwing CB young is bad. Is throwing a football young bad? If throwing the football is not bad, why can't a young pitcher throw a CB with the same arm mechanics (supination) as throwing the football. Each, baseball and football, still end with pronation at deceleration.[/QUOTE]



I think the problem with this theory is that many, many, many Coaches and Dads teach kids the wrong way to throw a curve and that is the problem. Not that they are throwing it, just that they are throwing it incorrectly. I've seen some kids throw devastating curve balls as young as 11 years old and because there may only be 1 or 2 kids on the other team that can hit that pitch, they keep calling it and calling it and the first thing you know the kid can hardly move his arm.

Also, mm, the curve is thrown with different mechanics. For young pitchers, it is best to work on fb's & c/u's, which are thrown with fb mechanics. Let them get some command with their fb mechanics before tackling the curve.

Furthermore, younger pitchers seem especially prone to supinating when throwing the curve. And that is a problem.

texan

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No supination = cut fastball.

Your very close to understanding what a slider is. Really, really close.

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And I'm not "wrong" about "throwing a slider".

If your endorsing supination for this pitch, then make no mistake about it...your wrong.

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It's not even a pitch I would have a pitcher throw.

So what do you know about teaching a good one then?

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I don't teach pitches that require supination during the delivery.

Perfect! Then the slider is definetly the pitch for you.

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Originally posted by Texan:
Also, mm, the curve is thrown with different mechanics. For young pitchers, it is best to work on fb's & c/u's, which are thrown with fb mechanics. Let them get some command with their fb mechanics before tackling the curve.

Furthermore, younger pitchers seem especially prone to supinating when throwing the curve. And that is a problem.

I agree 100%! "Command" makes you a "pitcher", everyone else is just a "thrower"! It's kind of like hunting Tigers with a blowgun, if you miss the target one time too many, you are doomed to get killed!

dm, if you really want to call what really is a "cut fastball" a "slider", just go right ahead...

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dm, if you really want to call what really is a "cut fastball" a "slider", just go right ahead...

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Your very close to understanding what a slider is. Really, really close.

I take this back...your not close.

Saying supination is required for the slider is ignorant. I have thrown cut fastballs, sliders, curves, and slurves. I am well aware of the difference between sliders and cutters.

Deemax, I'm really intrigued about the slider with no supination. Can you explain further? This is a learning opportunity for me and perhaps others.

Thanks.
Jon

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
dm, if you really want to call what really is a "cut fastball" a "slider", just go right ahead...

For me, the question is about the result. If deemax can throw/teach a pitch that's thrown without supination that to an observer has slider velocity and movement, then it's a slider. What do they say, "A rose by any name is still a rose."

willj - There is another topic discussing throwing the slider without supination. Look thru the topic list to find it....

The proper way to throw a slider (without supinating through the ball) as demonstrated by John Smoltz:





The proper way is to stay behind the ball as long as possible before release. Pressure with the middle finger will make the ball roll off the index finger. It should feel as if you are pushing with the index finger.

Regarding the curveball. I have noticed some MLB pitchers pre-supinate when the hand is passing through high c*o*c*k position and some don't. But the majority I have seen do, regardless of grip. Sutton, Hughes, Gallardo, Carpenter, Zito, Gagne, Beckett, Oswalt, and Rich Hill pre-supinate (ball facing head), just to name a few.

Take a look at this sequence of Zito throwing a curveball. When he is at high c*o*c*k, his hand is pre-supinated so that the ball is facing his head slightly. Once the shoulders rotate, the inertia of the ball will cause his arm to lay back as well is supinate his hand even more. When the upper arm is at maximal external rotation, the index and middle fingers are on the side of the ball and the hand is in "karate chop" position ready to chop down.

It's late so I'll only comment on the Smoltz pictures. The differing angles of the pictures makes this kind of tough to see but it looks like to me he actually does appear to supinate through delivery (which is the way I'm assuming most people define supination).

If you look at the top picture, he's "behind" the ball, which is just a way of saying his palm is facing home plate as it would for a fast ball. Now look at picture #2, the picture angle is different but it seems pretty obvious that he has supinated (assuming these are both sliders) since his palm now faces first base.

That, to me, is supination. I'm curious to hear others' views of these pictures as well.

Jon

Correct me if i'm wrong

but it's the natural movement of the wrist and grip that makes movement natural.

A tailing fastball is about identical to a two-seam fastball. A two-seam fastball can be mastered based on the grip along with the pressure your index finger puts on the ball.

I am a pitcher with a two-seam fastball but my fastball didnt have natural tail on it so i developed a two-seamer. It can easily be taught, but of course hardwork has to be put in.