Pitching Verse Throwing High MPH

One does not have to light up the radar gun to pitch in college.
The velocity will determine where he will fit into at the next level. The higher the velocity the larger the program. If he does better in game situations that's ok.
I am not sure if that ranking or rating is all determined by velocity, but rather future projection.
What matters is that your son can get hitters out, make sure he is seen by those from different levels so that a good fit can be determined.

What, exactly, is "projectability"? I have heard that term used a thousand times but have no idea what it actually means. Does it mean "big, strong, but not yet there as a player?" Does it mean "young for his grade and still has physical growth potential?" Or does it mean something completely different?

Thanks.

PG is a very good organization. They base their grades not on how good you are now but based on the top end of a players athletic ceiling (projectability).

I will tell you a story.

When my underclass son went to the California Underclass Showcase (with a lot of kids from his travel team) he was advised by his travel coach ... things like be a professional, tuck your shirt in, wear your hat straight, do not pull your pants over the heels of your cleats... No jewelry. Pants up, right belt, clean shave, no under armour half sleeves, etc,... really good advice that every ball player should already know.

The kid payed heed. Showed up clean.

This boy on his team showed up hat crooked, pants sagging and pulled over the heels of his cleats, big diamond studs in his ears, unshaven, not hustle, with a "tude".

Dropped every ball in the outfield ( I mean could not even track a ball!), struck out with an ugly loopy swing game time but hit a few BP bombs and ran a 6.5 60.

PG 10!

I have make a thousand jokes about that kid over the last 5 years. And, I have followed that kid.. Has not done a thing.

PG can project what a player has the ceiling to do. But a player has to work hard to take projectability into playability.

Not PG's fault. Player's fault for wasting the God given talents he has.

Now understand that 7.5 is one snapshot .. Sometimes an accurate picture and sometime a less than flattering one.

Use your kids evaluation to propel him.. do not push the 7.5 ceiling down on him but use the write up to raise his ceiling... Build on it.

I would never let someone tell my kid his ceiling... WE DEFINE THE CEILING! With feedback, hard work, focus and self belief.

projectability is what someone can see you being capable of doing with the skill set you have shown currently.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
One does not have to light up the radar gun to pitch in college.

TPM is dead on. And the biggest thing you have going for you is that he's a lefty. Just talking from personal experience and not bragging in any way because your story sounds 'very' familiar, my son is a 2011 mid 80s LHP who gets people out with three pitches and walks few. He's not a towering figure on the hill at 6' but he's known as a bulldog on the mound because no matter the situation he competes and he keeps the ball in the strike zone. And coaches love that. After seeing his breaking balls his 86 looks like 90+ to batters.

As parents we knew he could compete in any school in SC (Mom wanted him close by)but because he wasn't throwing 88-90 we were unsure where the interest would come from as far as recruiting. He ended up committing at the end of his junior season after turning down generous offers from the Citadel, Liberty, Furman, Coastal Carolina, Charleston Southern,USC Upstate, and...South Carolina.

I still remember what Ray Tanner told us walking out of his office. "Lefty pitchers who compete like you are a coveted commodity in college ball. Take all the time you need. The offers won't go away."

He committed to Winthrop the next day, but that's another story. Hang in there, don't worry about the radar guns and keep competing. Good things will come his way.

quote:

Originally posted by playfair:
PG is a very good organization. They base their grades not on how good you are now but based on the top end of a players athletic ceiling (projectability).

I will tell you a story.

When my underclass son went to the California Underclass Showcase (with a lot of kids from his travel team) he was advised by his travel coach ... things like be a professional, tuck your shirt in, wear your hat straight, do not pull your pants over the heels of your cleats... No jewelry. Pants up, right belt, clean shave, no under armour half sleeves, etc,... really good advice that every ball player should already know.

The kid payed heed. Showed up clean.

This boy on his team showed up hat crooked, pants sagging and pulled over the heels of his cleats, big diamond studs in his ears, unshaven, not hustle, with a "tude".

Dropped every ball in the outfield ( I mean could not even track a ball!), struck out with an ugly loopy swing game time but hit a few BP bombs and ran a 6.5 60.

PG 10!

I have make a thousand jokes about that kid over the last 5 years. And, I have followed that kid.. Has not done a thing.

PG can project what a player has the ceiling to do. But a player has to work hard to take projectability into playability.

Not PG's fault. Player's fault for wasting the God given talents he has.

Now understand that 7.5 is one snapshot .. Sometimes an accurate picture and sometime a less than flattering one.

Use your kids evaluation to propel him.. do not push the 7.5 ceiling down on him but use the write up to raise his ceiling... Build on it.

I would never let someone tell my kid his ceiling... WE DEFINE THE CEILING! With feedback, hard work, focus and self belief.

Hmmmm. trying hard to believe that story.

Well. Trust me. I swear its true.

I told this story to my son's freshman college coach. He guessed the player!

Hillarious!

quote:

Originally posted by playfair:
PG is a very good organization. They base their grades not on how good you are now but based on the top end of a players athletic ceiling (projectability).

I will tell you a story.

When my underclass son went to the California Underclass Showcase (with a lot of kids from his travel team) he was advised by his travel coach ... things like be a professional, tuck your shirt in, wear your hat straight, do not pull your pants over the heels of your cleats... No jewelry. Pants up, right belt, clean shave, no under armour half sleeves, etc,... really good advice that every ball player should already know.

The kid payed heed. Showed up clean.

This boy on his team showed up hat crooked, pants sagging and pulled over the heels of his cleats, big diamond studs in his ears, unshaven, not hustle, with a "tude".

Dropped every ball in the outfield ( I mean could not even track a ball!), struck out with an ugly loopy swing game time but hit a few BP bombs and ran a 6.5 60.

PG 10!

I have make a thousand jokes about that kid over the last 5 years. And, I have followed that kid.. Has not done a thing.

PG can project what a player has the ceiling to do. But a player has to work hard to take projectability into playability.

Not PG's fault. Player's fault for wasting the God given talents he has.

Now understand that 7.5 is one snapshot .. Sometimes an accurate picture and sometime a less than flattering one.

Use your kids evaluation to propel him.. do not push the 7.5 ceiling down on him but use the write up to raise his ceiling... Build on it.

I would never let someone tell my kid his ceiling... WE DEFINE THE CEILING! With feedback, hard work, focus and self belief.

you say it was the kids fault but if he couldnt track the ball and he struck out a lot it sounds to me like he had no God given hand eye coordination!

after watching and reading and living this process for a while I swear if I am not on the verge of believing that a kids feet are more important than his hands even tho he hits, throws and catches with them!

I believe it was Bobby Knight who said "I can teach a kid to play Basketball, I can't teach a kid to be 7'0 tall."

The same principle applies in baseball, big tools will always be coveted and people will take risks (character, academics, etc) to try and aquire them it's just the way things are.

Now if you have big tools and lots of character, EVERYONE will want you.

PG can only grade players on what they see. A kid played with my son at the CA underclass and underperformed. He was graded a 7.5. Based on what he did that weekend it was a generous grade. We knew he was way better than that and most likely PG did also but the kid didn't show it that weekend. He did more events and was eventually rated a 10. Eventually he was also a first round draft pick.

BTW, the pitching grades do tend to follow velocity to a fair degree so just have your son throw a few for velocity in the right situations, i.e. 0-2. Pitchability and velocity together will grade the best.

quote:

We all get “hyped” with the radar gun readings, so is velocity the core ingredient for getting ranked and/or graded high at showcase events? How much does the “finer” elements of pitching factor into the overall equation for playing baseball after HS?

It's all in the eyes of the beholder. Having said that, parents need to remember that not everyone loves their child as they do and not everyone wears the same kind of glasses.
I'll share a story. A few years back I got an anonymous message from a very critical person describing how terrible my son was at baseball. I explained that THEIR opinion of my son nor MY opinion of my son factored into the scheme of things when it came to his baseball.
Fungo

When did your son attend the PG showcase?

My guy's velo was good at WWBA this year, but didn't want to do the December showcase because he was afraid he couldn't reach maximum velocity during the off-season. Sure enough, we did camps instead and he was a few MPH lower than his max -- low enough that no one was impressed. Struck out 20 out of 30 with only one walk, but it didn't seem to matter. Learned his lesson -- no more events in the off-season.

Your son and mine both have plenty of opportunities this spring and summer to make their mark, so let's not sweat it, OK?

He attended 1 in Jan 2010 (before the HS season) and 1 in Aug 2010 (after the long showcase season). For him, I think it is more of the "mental aspect" of "it's for show" versus "it's a game I am pitching to win"....Hence the great showing at WWBA....He knows that is a mental adjustment he will have to make. His stats speak for themselves, but the concern/question is does anyone look at the stats if the velo is not "off the charts"....Thanks for the encouragement and good luck to your son

quote:

you say it was the kids fault but if he couldnt track the ball and he struck out a lot it sounds to me like he had no God given hand eye coordination!

No, the kid had all the tools. He just did not have the discipline to use/develop them correctly.

Here's a thought about velocity and recruiting as told to me by a respected and well known area pitching instructor:

There's a comfort factor in speed.

If a coach recruits a mid 80's pitcher with a phenominal record and the kid has a bad outing first time out, the coach is called an idiot and what the he-ll was he thinking. If the 90+ guy has a bad outing his first time out, well....he just had a bad outing his first time out.

I know it's tough as a concerned parent; but, PLEASE don't get hung up on ratings (or velocity, for that matter, if they're pitchers).

If your son is playing against quality competitors in places where the recruiters of interest to him go to see players play, his performance there will be the overwhelming influence of their opinion about whether he fits on their roster.

Let's give recruiters some credit for being astute enough to know that no rating ever won a game for them. Every single one of them can tell you story after story of highly-rated players who fizzled and lower-rated players who excelled.

However, they all trust their own ability to evaluate the performance that they observe on the field; and they carry around the belief that what they observe will likely be repeated if your son plays for them.

WinBuc44 - that makes sense.

Prepster - I donot think we are hung up on the ratings, but more looking for insights, experiences, etc as we are in the recruiting boat for the first time.

Let's use PG as an example. If out of 100 recruitors, 80 of them (80/20 rule) use it to begin a list of their prospects and they start with the 10's and work their way down in order to find the right fits, then rankings REALLY matter.

The ranking is the ranking, but I do think it is one aspect of a player and in some cases, based on the number, may not always be a true representation of the player.

quote:

Let's give recruiters some credit for being astute enough to know that no rating ever won a game for them. Every single one of them can tell you story after story of highly-rated players who fizzled and lower-rated players who excelled.

Well said.

quote:

Prepster - I donot think we are hung up on the ratings, but more looking for insights, experiences, etc as we are in the recruiting boat for the first time.

I'm very sorry, vhs. I didn't mean to suggest that you were. My post (like the large majority that I write) was meant for broad consumption.

My orientation here is purely that this website was an enormously beneficial resource when my son was coming up. As a result, I try to write especially for any reader who might be here for the same reason; especially those who are new to the board.

Best of luck to your son!

quote:

Let's use PG as an example. If out of 100 recruitors, 80 of them (80/20 rule) use it to begin a list of their prospects and they start with the 10's and work their way down in order to find the right fits, then rankings REALLY matter.

Now, here's a reply that is specific:

What you've suggested there may be true as one source for many recruiters who are just putting together their database for a particular year; but, if your son is subsequently seen by recruiters who are impressed by his performance, whatever rating he might or might not have had coming into the game/event will have little, if any, bearing on their opinion afterwards.

You also need to keep in mind that recruiting databases are not based solely upon evaluative groups' rankings. For example, if your son attends a showcase, his mere presence there will serve to get him added to many schools' databases. They tend to cast a very broad net, initially; causing ranking lists to be too narrow for that purpose.

Finally, never overlook the value of your son's letting a coaching staff know of his interest in their program and school; especially if it's well thought out beforehand. Coaches can't help but take note of that sort of thing when it occurs; so, rarely would it fail to get your son added to their player database if he's been overlooked up to that point.

I think velocity is very important in getting a high rating at a showcase event. At these events they are basically rating baseball talents and having a plus talent equals a high rating.

IMO that is much different than a recruiter looking for a recruit. Especially a LHP. Recruiters watching a LHP during a game would love to see 88-92 from a lefty. If this was the case the recruiters would be competing with the draft not each other. If a lefty is throwing 82-86, with good off speed stuff, and is getting batters out he will garner a lot of attention.

I witnessed this exact scenario this past summer with my son's teammate. Kid is 6'3" LHP. He had a lot of success with the numbers mentioned and the recruiters at several tournaments, including WWBA in East Cobb, were tripping over each other trying to get close to this pitcher. One coach from College of Charleston asked me if the kid committed anywhere. He was disappointed when I told he just committed somewhere because he was going to make him an offer.

IMO showcases showcase talent. Games showcase talents, abilities and intangibles. Some players may benefit more from a showcase and others may benefit more from being seen in game conditions.

Prepster - No worries

All of this is very insightful and what we have been thinking ourselves, just looking to gain information and share experiences....

There is no doubt that some highly thought of (ranked) players fizzle out at the next level. It’s also very true that some unranked players become college stars. And college coaches very much want to determine who they recruit based on what they see. That is much more important than any rankings, even ours.

Where the rankings might help those who are ranked is by making sure the college coaches focus on them and make sure they do see them.

If you look at our top 100 from this past summer, it’s easy to see who signed early and which college recruited them.

I did look at it… But I already knew because it's like that every year. Past years can be checked for that info.

Of the top 100 ranked HS players in the 2011 class…

13 signed early with ACC Colleges
13 signed early with Big 12 Colleges
16 signed with Pac 10 Colleges
39 signed early with SEC Colleges.

That adds up to over 80 of the top 100 signed with colleges in those four conferences.

If I take the next 100 ranked players 101 – 200

19 signed early with ACC Colleges
10 signed early with Big 12 Colleges
13 signed early with Pac 10 Colleges
18 signed early with SEC Colleges

Of the other Colleges that successfully recruited top 200 ranked players…

Schools like TCU, East Carolina, Coastal Carolina, Cal State Fullerton, San Diego, Pepperdine, Cal State Irvine, Rice, Central Florida, FIU, Notre Dame, Louisville, Michigan, etc. recruited players. Some recruited multiple players.

Point is… Surely the rankings mean something and are being used. However, there will always be many unranked players that will become better than some of the highly ranked players. I look at it as being ranked is an advantage because those players will definitely not be ignored, but everyone knows rankings are not perfect. So it’s not necessarily a disadvantage for those that are not ranked.

What is most important is doing what is possible to get seen by those that make the recruiting and/or draft decisions. If they like a player enough, the player rankings will make no difference.

Also… People are giving great advice in above posts.

quote:

vhs posted: but the concern/question is does anyone look at the stats if the velo is not "off the charts".

TPM is correct. The higher the veolcity, the more bigger (sometimes better) programs will nibble. My $0.02;...based on our experience and others, coaches (recruiters) look little at stats, but rather observe skills. Is the kid's arm action smooth? Can he repeat it? Is he around the plate, at the knees? How effective does he command secondary pitches? How much movement does his fastball have? Some can "pitch" at higher velocity than others, but pitchability is usually the priority, imo.

When in doubt, go where you're wanted. Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by vhs_02_2012:
...His stats speak for themselves, but the concern/question is does anyone look at the stats if the velo is not "off the charts"....

Stats are relative to the level of competition and affected by who is keeping them. Hence, their virtual irrelevance when colleges look at players.

Good point, redbird5. We all have stories of the pitcher who got lit up in high school but signed a NLI to a DI school and a kid who won a ton of games in high school but is playing DIII. College coaches are not looking at stats as much as you think.