Players drinking

Very sad indeed! My best to your son's team as they adjust. I also feel for those thrown off of the team. Baseball has done so much for me in my life that I can't imagine being without it. (Of course, that day is coming real fast where I'm going to have to experience it.)

I am going to take an opposite approach to this thread.

I do beleive, that what one does in their own time off of the field is not reason to get the boot, unless that is school policy or team policy (then it is a different story).

Do understand that I AM NOT in favor of underage drinking.

Few years back a very high draft HS prospect, got arrested for minor in possesion of alcohol while at a party. He still made first round and still very much a prospect.

JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
Very sad indeed! My best to your son's team as they adjust. I also feel for those thrown off of the team.

I do, too. I feel that they were not "thrown off the team". I assume that, like many or most schools if not all, there are rules against underage drinking. And so therefore, if there were rules, they knowingly chose to disregard them. And they LEFT the team of their own accord.

They may not have planned to get caught.....

But all actions have a reaction---and their stupidity (yes, I think that drinking during the season is stupid) results in the opportunity for four students who wouldn't have had the chance to play this year.......and that's a good thing. I'm sure they won't waste this opportunity...

Kudos to the coach and the school for removing these "team leaders" from the team. Kudos to them for not having a double standard......

Not everyone has the privilege and pleasure of playing baseball in their senior year of high school. Too bad they blew it.

I wish the best to the new "starters".

As a new resident to Texas, we informed day one that if a player even attended a party where alcohol was present, they better leave. He said that last year, a kid had a picture taken of he and his girlfriend at such a party, the picture was posted on the web and in the back ground was someone with a beer. UIL rules, he was dismissed form the team.

seems pretty harsh if a 1rst offense

Normally a believer in tough love, I also have some empathy for those that make mistakes.

Who is better served by zero tolerance rules, the offender or the system? The answer is usually the system because it takes judgement out of the hands of people and makes a blanket statement that concerns everybody and cares not for context.

The argument that the offender learns there are consequences, is valid, but does the punishment fit the crime? These days we really don't ask that often enough. Hence the $200 fine for not wearing a seatbelt, or the $550 fine for no vehicle sticker (these are real fines).

The flip side, is that if we have rules, we need to enforce them. Again, it comes down to the equitable punishment rule.

The one lesson that life feeds us in spades, that as a society we continue to turn our backs on, is that steep punishments don't really act as deterrents.

In this specific case, can the argument really be made that these individuals are more likely to be deterred from future underage drinking by booting them off the team? You have just eliminated their peer group from daily contact, which would logically present more opportunity for apathy and continued underage drinking...who has been served? You could argue the team has been served by witnessing the severe penalty their peers have been subjected to, but now we're again facing the evidence that stiff penalties don't deter.

If we were to look quite logically at what may be best for all the parties involved, which would include the peer group teammates, it may be a several game suspension. The support group remains intact, the offenders have to face the peer group they have let down by making bad decisions, and the offenders learn the two meanings, one of consequence for actions, and the other, temperance and tolerance of human frailty.

But as a society, we like easy answers to hard questions, so we have zero tolerance.

JMHO

i think this is a problem that comes up often in hs.the drinking and drugs have been around forever and they aren't going away.we have had a few years of front page type errors in judgement in our community.with my son being one.
we had a knowingly present in season rule, but there was always a way around the knowing part. we now have a year round rule for athletes, with escalating penaltys up to forfeting the rest of your hs play.we haven't had anyone caught yet.i know many have broken the rule ,but they are getting smarter i guess.
if you have a rule it's a rule. i don't like the vague rules that you can squeeze around.leaves to much room for favorites. i realize athletes represent the school but so does the band or the debate team etc. it should be for all extracuricular activities. i'm not sure what the best action is in these things? i do know first hand that the use can escalate to a problem level.but that's another story.

cplz great thought, may be to difficult for the admin. to grasp. but i like it.

quote:

If we were to look quite logically at what may be best for all the parties involved, which would include the peer group teammates, it may be a several game suspension. The support group remains intact, the offenders have to face the peer group they have let down by making bad decisions, and the offenders learn the two meanings, one of consequence for actions, and the other, temperance and tolerance of human frailty.

CPLZ, excellent alternative.

CPLZ,
Good post.

Was getting the boot off the team a rule that was in place before they got the boot?

Its tough as a player whose good friends, some baseball, some not, all drink on the weekends. Drinking among teens is becoming more and more popular every weekend.

But remember, as a coach do you want your players going out and drinking? It sets a bad rep for the team and I'm sure the kids would have done it again if they were just suspended from one game.

quote:

Who is better served by zero tolerance rules, the offender or the system? The answer is usually the system because it takes judgement out of the hands of people and makes a blanket statement that concerns everybody and cares not for context.

quote:

But as a society, we like easy answers to hard questions, so we have zero tolerance

CPLZ, really excellent points!

If your friends all drink during the weekend, then it might be time to look into getting some new friends. Surely, there are some kids out there who are still substance free at 17 - 18 y.o.

Good post redhead. I don't want to swim with a bunch of guys that like to pee in the pool. Hopefully they will not end up like this poor ballplayer, who sadly had a DUI and pot legal history. He was kicked off one college team I know of, which apparently was not enough. Wrong Way Driver

Where do the boundaries of school district and administration authority begin and end? While on school property? - yes. While participating in district sponsored events? - certainly.

I am disturbed by the long arm of school authorities to preside and judge over issues and events over which they should have no jurisdiction. I am AMAZED and saddened that the electorate is willing to submit to an authority that reaches into their home and family life, when that authority has no business there.

I am not a big fan of underage drinking either, but I have trouble understanding why a school system would penalize a student for behavior that did not take place during or at a school. If a school is going to assume the parents responsibility for off school discipline, why would they apply the rules only to athletes? Do they believe underage drinking more dangerous to athletes or do they just value athletes more. Schools officials should stay in there lane and let parents parent.

Sometimes it's the 'leaders' of the class that end up doing the wrong things in HS.

Four of five of the "pride of the High School", including the kid that was elected "Mister [schoolname]" by students AND faculty, broke into the school the last week of the year and smeared human fecal matter EVERYwhere....not just a little, but a lot......up and down all the hallways, on both levels, on all the lockers, on into the library....everywhere. They must have been saving these things for at least a month somewhere.

School was closed for a day and a half because they had to call in HAZMAT, and then a public health inspector had to give the OK to reoccupy.

Imagine the embarrassment of their families....and this was in a military community where the SPONSOR (parent) is held accountable for the actions of their dependents (as it should be everywhere)......it was ugly.......so don't always assume those 'leaders' are the angels they sometimes pretend to be........remember EDDIE HASKELL!!

ALL of the kids involved were athletes, by the way, and alcohol was a major factor.

As a HS athlete you are put on a "longer leash" that has more privilages but also higher expectations that comes with it. With every privilage there is a price

While in the case of the average "Joe" I kind of agree with tpm statement of

quote:

I do beleive, that what one does in their own time off of the field is not reason to get the boot..

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In the case of the athlete, I think that HS has so few kids that set good examples, follow golden rules, and pay the price for breaking rules that the athletic "longer leash" is also a "ball-n-chain". From the beginning of time, someone has always had to "step-up", and lead by example, and pay the price, in HS it is the athlete. I cannot think of another group that could do it, and when all is said and done many of our future leaders come from this group.

While there are always "wrong place at the wrong time" situations, I think a vast majority of the rules are put in place for a meaning, and that meaning is to show others that there are alternatives, and at times a price if you go outside the box.

In Sedalia, MO this last week or so--13 of the public high school baseball players were suspended for vandalizing the baseball field that the (much smaller) private high school team played on....

http://kmiz.com/sports/default.asp?StoryID=1311

Unless this was a new rule, the baseball players knew the consequences. Without knowing any more than what woody4220 posted, we don't know if it was their first offense or their third. We don't know if the the school is cracking down because they have had numerous alcohol issues. We don't know anything more than what is posted.

Bottom line, if you want to remain on the team in good standing, then follow the rules. Don't drink during the season.

Especially if you want to play in college......

Lots of kids don't drink during the season because they respect the game of baseball too much.

One of my sons was on a hs team that did have an alcohol problem. (!) Problem was, they never got caught. But it got so bad that the coach finally yelled at them that he was tired of them showing up for the Saturday double-headers hung-over, reeking of alcohol. Guess what, the team didn't do so well on Saturdays. Kind of a problem for the few kids who didn't drink. Who wanted to play well. Who didn't want to waste every Saturday morning and afternoon playing on a team that clearly was not in any position to play one game, let alone two. Week after week after week.

Finally, one Friday night "party" got busted. One of the senior National Honor Society members on the baseball team tried running away. But he tripped and fell into in a creek--with a concussion and broken elbow that didn't allow him to get out of the creek.....and he came close to drowning. Thankfully, another kid was able to rescue him......And that was the end of his baseball-playing days. And he got kicked out of the NHS.

There are lots of other stories in my little community--like the football player who got so drunk at a party in the forest preserve--but the others didn't want to call 911 for fear that the police would come...so another boy took him to the hospital--with no identification. And because no one wanted to be known as having been at the party, he wasn't identified for days...(The principals at the neighboring schools were finally called in.) He came close to dying, but again, thankfully he didn't.

In another thread the question was--what will it take before it changes? Well, will it take a high school kid in your community to die of alcohol-poisoning before the rules are enforced? Or should the rules be enforced with strict penalties so that a tragedy doesn't occur? And I'm not even addressing the driving aspect. That's another topic.

I'm not passing judgment regarding the morality or anything of teen-age drinking. But if a kid drinks at a party, then the kid drinks at a party. He takes the drink himself, knowing what it is. Unless his soft drink was laced with something....... He knows what he's doing. And he doesn't think he'll get caught. But if he is old enough to drink, then he is old enough to suffer the consequences. And if that means getting booted off the team, then so be it.

And if he doesn't like that consequence, then he shouldn't tempt fate. The season is too short to cut it off prematurely.

I agree with play baseball, we do not know what the rules were. If the rules included you get caught drinking anywhere during season, you are toast, I agree.

I also agree that while our kids are human, commom sense is not to get hung over the night before a game.

I know when my kids were growing up, there was some things we couldn't control as they had to learn on their own, but we did teach them to use common sense when making decisions.

some very different takes on this problem,and i can see the point to them all as well. who really knows which kid will really like drinking? i for one found myself to be the life of the party when i drank in HS.and with a party every weekend ........i found something i was good at.

these kids brains are at a point where the risk is the reward,they at times do things just because.it seems the dumber the better.and it's not just the bad kids any more it's the class pres. the scholarship winner etc. it really is a bond that most share. at least in our town it is. i'm not sure how you deal with this stuff,but i'm glad i'm only in charge of a couple of kids and not the whole school.

Im against drinking. But I don't believe it is the baseball teams job to punish the players for some thing that happened off school property
How did the coach know he were drinking? Did he witness the player drinking? Hearsay?
If he has information that a player was drinking he needs to contact the players parents and it is their responsibility to punish the player.
Now if the coach decides to bench a player thats his choice, But I don't think he should be Punish by being removed from a school event for some thing someone says happened away from school

The responsability lies with the individual player.
You know the RULES.
You and you alone, Are responsable for your actions.
Live with the consiquences of your actions.
EH

quote:

Originally posted by theEH:
The responsability lies with the individual player.
You know the RULES.
You and you alone, Are responsable for your actions.
Live with the consiquences of your actions.
EH

Words to live by!!!

All athletes in Nashua sign an athletic contract that clearly states what the various punishments are for various infractions. Drinking and drugs mean you're off the team. Period. Every athlete knows that in advance and every athlete and their parents sign the agreement.

Last year, with 3 weeks to go in the season, our varsity baseball team had 8 guys kicked off the team for drinking. As others have said - its a matter of personal responsibility. The kids know the rules and they know the consequences.

So I go into the coach and say "so and so" was drinking at a party last sat. night ... and now "so and so" is gone? ..What was I doing at the party where people are drinking?.. "so and so" says he saw me drinking...I'm gone too...

In my little corner of the world, it's not as easy as "tattling" on a player. You're only caught if you get busted by the police. The police are required to report incidences to the high school.

We had a local player caught with a drink in his hand by Disney World security on a senior class trip. He was kicked off the high school baseball team (remember he was in a bar with a drink in his hand caught by security during class trip) the school has the right to punish him.He was at a school function.

By the way the player filed a million dollar law suit against the school and the coach.

In my little corner of the world, names are printed in the newspaper at the age of 17....

Don't think of kicking a kid off of a team as punishment, think of it as saving a life.

Two summers ago my son played on a team of 17-19 year olds. They went to two out of town tournaments, the letter from the coaches said "if you are caught with drugs or alcohol you will be sent home at your parents expense." 3 days into the tournament 1/2 the team was caught drinking. The coach turned his cheek saying "it wouldn't be fair to the others if we sent them home, we are trying to win a tournament."

Two weeks latter another tournment several kids are caught smoking dope. Again the coach does nothing.

The last week of the season, one of the kids that was caught in both instances' 17-year old brother was killed as a drunk driver. I have always wondered if the coach had followed through if it would have had an impact on the family.

With minors, it is about saving lives not ruining lives.

They don't print the names of minors in the papers around here.
I'm not sure if the police can release information to schools about minors....

Although I don't think it's right at all and I personally don't drink...it's out there and way more than the parents and coaches would expect. It really should be cracked down on.

I'm VERY aware of the dangers of drunk drivers, my mother was killed by one.

LVBB. that coach was wrong not to send those players home. They were in his care. He took them to the event and he took responsiblity of them during this time.
To me its not the same as the school punishing a student while he away from school and under the supervision of his parents.

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njbb,

I am sorry to learn of the tragic loss of your mother.

Thank you for your kind words

Okay, well first y'all will laugh because of my name, but remember--it's not about wine, it is French for the color cardinal. I agree with ILVBB.

I am about as liberal as they come politically, but I am an arch conservative when it comes to drinking, smoking, and drugs. Two are illegal for minors and the other ought to be. They all kill. And far less important, they also most certainly impair athletic and intellectual ability.

And, despite the fact that I am also a lawyer, I think comments about due process and ex post facto rules are hogwash. Kids know alcohol use is illegal. Kids know that it kills--every year, we lose kids to drunk driving and alcohol poisoning. If they are going to break laws, they had better be prepared to deal with any consequences that flow from their illegal conduct, and that includes getting kicked off a team.

It takes a village to raise a child. If the parents won't do it, then I applaud the other parents, coaches and teachers who will.

I am with Bodeaux on this - it doesn't matte if it is a school rule or a team rule...YOU ARE BREAKING THE LAW WHEN YOU DRINK AND DO DRUGS!!!!!!! That is enough for me to punish the players.

I have it in writing that if a player is caught drinking and / or doing drugs they are subject to removal.

I don't think we need to boot them on the first offense. If you boot them then they have MORE time to get out and do bad stuff. By keeping them around and punishing them you may be able to make an impact in that young man's life. If he does it a second time then remove the young man because he is useless to you. High school kids are going to make dumb decisions - they have since the first day of time. It is our job to teach them.

Speaking of teaching them where and what are the parents doing in these situations? How can you not know your child is out doing this stuff? The worst part is when the parent upholds or defends their sons when they do this type of stuff.

I used to have a different perspective when I first started. I would can them in a heartbeat but my sister became addicted to drugs and lost a lot of stuff that is valuable to her. Everyone needs a second chance and everyone needs an opportunity to learn from their mistakes. Our school has a drug testing program for athletes and I had a player get busted over it. He was removed from my team and he got worse. His parents let him do whatever he wanted. If he was suspended, run til he puked, carried the equipment, apologize to the team or whatever punishment you want to do - keep them around to teach them.

Remember, coaches and schools may be the only stable influence in a young man's life. Give them a second chance but if they blow it then they need to be cut loose.

I’m really in a quandary over this one. A previous post mentioned how athletes are on a long leash – its my experience they are on a very short one with little room for error. My son is getting to the age where this is going to become an issue and I wonder if he will be mature enough/smart enough to walk away from peer pressure. This is especially true for our baseball guys who have friends who are 2 and 3 years older – not an excuse but just reality.

Another reality is our guys have very little down time – positive in most respects but can that also be a negative on the “one big night out”. I don’t know.

I think with anything, we need to look at the individual and the occurrence. Black and white rules make us all feel better but are they right. The problem arises with the severity of the offence and when repeated offences are allowed to happen because someone can throw in the 90s or can hit the ball 450 feet…….that’s where the black and white rules stem from.

Is my son (and yours) a great kid - absolutely……will he probably do something dumb in the future – maybe – I hope not – but maybe. If he does do something dumb, should everything he has worked for year over year be wiped out – NO!

Where do we draw the line – speeding, running a stop sign, shoplifting, acting up in class, being rude to parents or any other teenage dumb things kids do.

Let me be clear, I’m not condoning any of the above – but we do hold BASEBALL players to a higher level of accountability then football or basketball players and I do like that – but no one rule should apply – they will make mistakes – its how they step up to the mistakes that will define them.

Rules or no rules, the players who drink too much will not succeed...it shows a lack of focus or drive to really excel...