Players drinking

Very sad indeed! My best to your son's team as they adjust. I also feel for those thrown off of the team. Baseball has done so much for me in my life that I can't imagine being without it. (Of course, that day is coming real fast where I'm going to have to experience it.)

I am going to take an opposite approach to this thread.

I do beleive, that what one does in their own time off of the field is not reason to get the boot, unless that is school policy or team policy (then it is a different story).

Do understand that I AM NOT in favor of underage drinking.

Few years back a very high draft HS prospect, got arrested for minor in possesion of alcohol while at a party. He still made first round and still very much a prospect.

JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
Very sad indeed! My best to your son's team as they adjust. I also feel for those thrown off of the team.

I do, too. I feel that they were not "thrown off the team". I assume that, like many or most schools if not all, there are rules against underage drinking. And so therefore, if there were rules, they knowingly chose to disregard them. And they LEFT the team of their own accord.

They may not have planned to get caught.....

But all actions have a reaction---and their stupidity (yes, I think that drinking during the season is stupid) results in the opportunity for four students who wouldn't have had the chance to play this year.......and that's a good thing. I'm sure they won't waste this opportunity...

Kudos to the coach and the school for removing these "team leaders" from the team. Kudos to them for not having a double standard......

Not everyone has the privilege and pleasure of playing baseball in their senior year of high school. Too bad they blew it.

I wish the best to the new "starters".

As a new resident to Texas, we informed day one that if a player even attended a party where alcohol was present, they better leave. He said that last year, a kid had a picture taken of he and his girlfriend at such a party, the picture was posted on the web and in the back ground was someone with a beer. UIL rules, he was dismissed form the team.

seems pretty harsh if a 1rst offense

Normally a believer in tough love, I also have some empathy for those that make mistakes.

Who is better served by zero tolerance rules, the offender or the system? The answer is usually the system because it takes judgement out of the hands of people and makes a blanket statement that concerns everybody and cares not for context.

The argument that the offender learns there are consequences, is valid, but does the punishment fit the crime? These days we really don't ask that often enough. Hence the $200 fine for not wearing a seatbelt, or the $550 fine for no vehicle sticker (these are real fines).

The flip side, is that if we have rules, we need to enforce them. Again, it comes down to the equitable punishment rule.

The one lesson that life feeds us in spades, that as a society we continue to turn our backs on, is that steep punishments don't really act as deterrents.

In this specific case, can the argument really be made that these individuals are more likely to be deterred from future underage drinking by booting them off the team? You have just eliminated their peer group from daily contact, which would logically present more opportunity for apathy and continued underage drinking...who has been served? You could argue the team has been served by witnessing the severe penalty their peers have been subjected to, but now we're again facing the evidence that stiff penalties don't deter.

If we were to look quite logically at what may be best for all the parties involved, which would include the peer group teammates, it may be a several game suspension. The support group remains intact, the offenders have to face the peer group they have let down by making bad decisions, and the offenders learn the two meanings, one of consequence for actions, and the other, temperance and tolerance of human frailty.

But as a society, we like easy answers to hard questions, so we have zero tolerance.

JMHO

i think this is a problem that comes up often in hs.the drinking and drugs have been around forever and they aren't going away.we have had a few years of front page type errors in judgement in our community.with my son being one.
we had a knowingly present in season rule, but there was always a way around the knowing part. we now have a year round rule for athletes, with escalating penaltys up to forfeting the rest of your hs play.we haven't had anyone caught yet.i know many have broken the rule ,but they are getting smarter i guess.
if you have a rule it's a rule. i don't like the vague rules that you can squeeze around.leaves to much room for favorites. i realize athletes represent the school but so does the band or the debate team etc. it should be for all extracuricular activities. i'm not sure what the best action is in these things? i do know first hand that the use can escalate to a problem level.but that's another story.

cplz great thought, may be to difficult for the admin. to grasp. but i like it.

quote:

If we were to look quite logically at what may be best for all the parties involved, which would include the peer group teammates, it may be a several game suspension. The support group remains intact, the offenders have to face the peer group they have let down by making bad decisions, and the offenders learn the two meanings, one of consequence for actions, and the other, temperance and tolerance of human frailty.

CPLZ, excellent alternative.

CPLZ,
Good post.

Was getting the boot off the team a rule that was in place before they got the boot?

Its tough as a player whose good friends, some baseball, some not, all drink on the weekends. Drinking among teens is becoming more and more popular every weekend.

But remember, as a coach do you want your players going out and drinking? It sets a bad rep for the team and I'm sure the kids would have done it again if they were just suspended from one game.

quote:

Who is better served by zero tolerance rules, the offender or the system? The answer is usually the system because it takes judgement out of the hands of people and makes a blanket statement that concerns everybody and cares not for context.

quote:

But as a society, we like easy answers to hard questions, so we have zero tolerance

CPLZ, really excellent points!

If your friends all drink during the weekend, then it might be time to look into getting some new friends. Surely, there are some kids out there who are still substance free at 17 - 18 y.o.

Good post redhead. I don't want to swim with a bunch of guys that like to pee in the pool. Hopefully they will not end up like this poor ballplayer, who sadly had a DUI and pot legal history. He was kicked off one college team I know of, which apparently was not enough. Wrong Way Driver

Where do the boundaries of school district and administration authority begin and end? While on school property? - yes. While participating in district sponsored events? - certainly.

I am disturbed by the long arm of school authorities to preside and judge over issues and events over which they should have no jurisdiction. I am AMAZED and saddened that the electorate is willing to submit to an authority that reaches into their home and family life, when that authority has no business there.

I am not a big fan of underage drinking either, but I have trouble understanding why a school system would penalize a student for behavior that did not take place during or at a school. If a school is going to assume the parents responsibility for off school discipline, why would they apply the rules only to athletes? Do they believe underage drinking more dangerous to athletes or do they just value athletes more. Schools officials should stay in there lane and let parents parent.

Sometimes it's the 'leaders' of the class that end up doing the wrong things in HS.

Four of five of the "pride of the High School", including the kid that was elected "Mister [schoolname]" by students AND faculty, broke into the school the last week of the year and smeared human fecal matter EVERYwhere....not just a little, but a lot......up and down all the hallways, on both levels, on all the lockers, on into the library....everywhere. They must have been saving these things for at least a month somewhere.

School was closed for a day and a half because they had to call in HAZMAT, and then a public health inspector had to give the OK to reoccupy.

Imagine the embarrassment of their families....and this was in a military community where the SPONSOR (parent) is held accountable for the actions of their dependents (as it should be everywhere)......it was ugly.......so don't always assume those 'leaders' are the angels they sometimes pretend to be........remember EDDIE HASKELL!!

ALL of the kids involved were athletes, by the way, and alcohol was a major factor.

As a HS athlete you are put on a "longer leash" that has more privilages but also higher expectations that comes with it. With every privilage there is a price

While in the case of the average "Joe" I kind of agree with tpm statement of

quote:

I do beleive, that what one does in their own time off of the field is not reason to get the boot..

.
In the case of the athlete, I think that HS has so few kids that set good examples, follow golden rules, and pay the price for breaking rules that the athletic "longer leash" is also a "ball-n-chain". From the beginning of time, someone has always had to "step-up", and lead by example, and pay the price, in HS it is the athlete. I cannot think of another group that could do it, and when all is said and done many of our future leaders come from this group.

While there are always "wrong place at the wrong time" situations, I think a vast majority of the rules are put in place for a meaning, and that meaning is to show others that there are alternatives, and at times a price if you go outside the box.

In Sedalia, MO this last week or so--13 of the public high school baseball players were suspended for vandalizing the baseball field that the (much smaller) private high school team played on....

http://kmiz.com/sports/default.asp?StoryID=1311

Unless this was a new rule, the baseball players knew the consequences. Without knowing any more than what woody4220 posted, we don't know if it was their first offense or their third. We don't know if the the school is cracking down because they have had numerous alcohol issues. We don't know anything more than what is posted.

Bottom line, if you want to remain on the team in good standing, then follow the rules. Don't drink during the season.

Especially if you want to play in college......

Lots of kids don't drink during the season because they respect the game of baseball too much.

One of my sons was on a hs team that did have an alcohol problem. (!) Problem was, they never got caught. But it got so bad that the coach finally yelled at them that he was tired of them showing up for the Saturday double-headers hung-over, reeking of alcohol. Guess what, the team didn't do so well on Saturdays. Kind of a problem for the few kids who didn't drink. Who wanted to play well. Who didn't want to waste every Saturday morning and afternoon playing on a team that clearly was not in any position to play one game, let alone two. Week after week after week.

Finally, one Friday night "party" got busted. One of the senior National Honor Society members on the baseball team tried running away. But he tripped and fell into in a creek--with a concussion and broken elbow that didn't allow him to get out of the creek.....and he came close to drowning. Thankfully, another kid was able to rescue him......And that was the end of his baseball-playing days. And he got kicked out of the NHS.

There are lots of other stories in my little community--like the football player who got so drunk at a party in the forest preserve--but the others didn't want to call 911 for fear that the police would come...so another boy took him to the hospital--with no identification. And because no one wanted to be known as having been at the party, he wasn't identified for days...(The principals at the neighboring schools were finally called in.) He came close to dying, but again, thankfully he didn't.

In another thread the question was--what will it take before it changes? Well, will it take a high school kid in your community to die of alcohol-poisoning before the rules are enforced? Or should the rules be enforced with strict penalties so that a tragedy doesn't occur? And I'm not even addressing the driving aspect. That's another topic.

I'm not passing judgment regarding the morality or anything of teen-age drinking. But if a kid drinks at a party, then the kid drinks at a party. He takes the drink himself, knowing what it is. Unless his soft drink was laced with something....... He knows what he's doing. And he doesn't think he'll get caught. But if he is old enough to drink, then he is old enough to suffer the consequences. And if that means getting booted off the team, then so be it.

And if he doesn't like that consequence, then he shouldn't tempt fate. The season is too short to cut it off prematurely.

I agree with play baseball, we do not know what the rules were. If the rules included you get caught drinking anywhere during season, you are toast, I agree.

I also agree that while our kids are human, commom sense is not to get hung over the night before a game.

I know when my kids were growing up, there was some things we couldn't control as they had to learn on their own, but we did teach them to use common sense when making decisions.

some very different takes on this problem,and i can see the point to them all as well. who really knows which kid will really like drinking? i for one found myself to be the life of the party when i drank in HS.and with a party every weekend ........i found something i was good at.

these kids brains are at a point where the risk is the reward,they at times do things just because.it seems the dumber the better.and it's not just the bad kids any more it's the class pres. the scholarship winner etc. it really is a bond that most share. at least in our town it is. i'm not sure how you deal with this stuff,but i'm glad i'm only in charge of a couple of kids and not the whole school.

Im against drinking. But I don't believe it is the baseball teams job to punish the players for some thing that happened off school property
How did the coach know he were drinking? Did he witness the player drinking? Hearsay?
If he has information that a player was drinking he needs to contact the players parents and it is their responsibility to punish the player.
Now if the coach decides to bench a player thats his choice, But I don't think he should be Punish by being removed from a school event for some thing someone says happened away from school

The responsability lies with the individual player.
You know the RULES.
You and you alone, Are responsable for your actions.
Live with the consiquences of your actions.
EH

quote:

Originally posted by theEH:
The responsability lies with the individual player.
You know the RULES.
You and you alone, Are responsable for your actions.
Live with the consiquences of your actions.
EH

Words to live by!!!

All athletes in Nashua sign an athletic contract that clearly states what the various punishments are for various infractions. Drinking and drugs mean you're off the team. Period. Every athlete knows that in advance and every athlete and their parents sign the agreement.

Last year, with 3 weeks to go in the season, our varsity baseball team had 8 guys kicked off the team for drinking. As others have said - its a matter of personal responsibility. The kids know the rules and they know the consequences.

So I go into the coach and say "so and so" was drinking at a party last sat. night ... and now "so and so" is gone? ..What was I doing at the party where people are drinking?.. "so and so" says he saw me drinking...I'm gone too...

In my little corner of the world, it's not as easy as "tattling" on a player. You're only caught if you get busted by the police. The police are required to report incidences to the high school.

We had a local player caught with a drink in his hand by Disney World security on a senior class trip. He was kicked off the high school baseball team (remember he was in a bar with a drink in his hand caught by security during class trip) the school has the right to punish him.He was at a school function.

By the way the player filed a million dollar law suit against the school and the coach.

In my little corner of the world, names are printed in the newspaper at the age of 17....

Don't think of kicking a kid off of a team as punishment, think of it as saving a life.

Two summers ago my son played on a team of 17-19 year olds. They went to two out of town tournaments, the letter from the coaches said "if you are caught with drugs or alcohol you will be sent home at your parents expense." 3 days into the tournament 1/2 the team was caught drinking. The coach turned his cheek saying "it wouldn't be fair to the others if we sent them home, we are trying to win a tournament."

Two weeks latter another tournment several kids are caught smoking dope. Again the coach does nothing.

The last week of the season, one of the kids that was caught in both instances' 17-year old brother was killed as a drunk driver. I have always wondered if the coach had followed through if it would have had an impact on the family.

With minors, it is about saving lives not ruining lives.

They don't print the names of minors in the papers around here.
I'm not sure if the police can release information to schools about minors....

Although I don't think it's right at all and I personally don't drink...it's out there and way more than the parents and coaches would expect. It really should be cracked down on.

I'm VERY aware of the dangers of drunk drivers, my mother was killed by one.

LVBB. that coach was wrong not to send those players home. They were in his care. He took them to the event and he took responsiblity of them during this time.
To me its not the same as the school punishing a student while he away from school and under the supervision of his parents.

.
njbb,

I am sorry to learn of the tragic loss of your mother.

Thank you for your kind words

Okay, well first y'all will laugh because of my name, but remember--it's not about wine, it is French for the color cardinal. I agree with ILVBB.

I am about as liberal as they come politically, but I am an arch conservative when it comes to drinking, smoking, and drugs. Two are illegal for minors and the other ought to be. They all kill. And far less important, they also most certainly impair athletic and intellectual ability.

And, despite the fact that I am also a lawyer, I think comments about due process and ex post facto rules are hogwash. Kids know alcohol use is illegal. Kids know that it kills--every year, we lose kids to drunk driving and alcohol poisoning. If they are going to break laws, they had better be prepared to deal with any consequences that flow from their illegal conduct, and that includes getting kicked off a team.

It takes a village to raise a child. If the parents won't do it, then I applaud the other parents, coaches and teachers who will.

I am with Bodeaux on this - it doesn't matte if it is a school rule or a team rule...YOU ARE BREAKING THE LAW WHEN YOU DRINK AND DO DRUGS!!!!!!! That is enough for me to punish the players.

I have it in writing that if a player is caught drinking and / or doing drugs they are subject to removal.

I don't think we need to boot them on the first offense. If you boot them then they have MORE time to get out and do bad stuff. By keeping them around and punishing them you may be able to make an impact in that young man's life. If he does it a second time then remove the young man because he is useless to you. High school kids are going to make dumb decisions - they have since the first day of time. It is our job to teach them.

Speaking of teaching them where and what are the parents doing in these situations? How can you not know your child is out doing this stuff? The worst part is when the parent upholds or defends their sons when they do this type of stuff.

I used to have a different perspective when I first started. I would can them in a heartbeat but my sister became addicted to drugs and lost a lot of stuff that is valuable to her. Everyone needs a second chance and everyone needs an opportunity to learn from their mistakes. Our school has a drug testing program for athletes and I had a player get busted over it. He was removed from my team and he got worse. His parents let him do whatever he wanted. If he was suspended, run til he puked, carried the equipment, apologize to the team or whatever punishment you want to do - keep them around to teach them.

Remember, coaches and schools may be the only stable influence in a young man's life. Give them a second chance but if they blow it then they need to be cut loose.

I’m really in a quandary over this one. A previous post mentioned how athletes are on a long leash – its my experience they are on a very short one with little room for error. My son is getting to the age where this is going to become an issue and I wonder if he will be mature enough/smart enough to walk away from peer pressure. This is especially true for our baseball guys who have friends who are 2 and 3 years older – not an excuse but just reality.

Another reality is our guys have very little down time – positive in most respects but can that also be a negative on the “one big night out”. I don’t know.

I think with anything, we need to look at the individual and the occurrence. Black and white rules make us all feel better but are they right. The problem arises with the severity of the offence and when repeated offences are allowed to happen because someone can throw in the 90s or can hit the ball 450 feet…….that’s where the black and white rules stem from.

Is my son (and yours) a great kid - absolutely……will he probably do something dumb in the future – maybe – I hope not – but maybe. If he does do something dumb, should everything he has worked for year over year be wiped out – NO!

Where do we draw the line – speeding, running a stop sign, shoplifting, acting up in class, being rude to parents or any other teenage dumb things kids do.

Let me be clear, I’m not condoning any of the above – but we do hold BASEBALL players to a higher level of accountability then football or basketball players and I do like that – but no one rule should apply – they will make mistakes – its how they step up to the mistakes that will define them.

Rules or no rules, the players who drink too much will not succeed...it shows a lack of focus or drive to really excel...

I had plenty of experience with losing friends to drinking as a teenager.I am not sure how many lives it took to close a certain mountain rd at night and nearly all deaths on that road were related to drinking . We lost 4 friends Jr year in High school and 2 more as seniors. It was pure ignorance on the kids and the parents.
I too am against teenage drinking and schools have a duty to protect their students from the dangers of drinking and drugs at any of their events. However, I believe the school has no business in the private lives of anyone barring child abuse. They have a hard enough time tending to their own. As others have posted if the team has a policy on drinking then they knew what the consequences were. Many teams have a no drinking policy, I know ours did.

As for the people who think they have the right to raise others kids over some booze, get real.

We all agree under age drinking is bad. Maybe it's just me but its kind of scarey coming from a attorney on the comment part of Due Process and the Ex Post Facto being hog wash. I read about three kids from Duke may challenge at least one of those beliefs.
I am a die hard American and dont waiver on our rights whether I believe in them or not.
Good Luck

my favorite quote. (every one wants the school to be tough on kids, until it's your's.)

so many things come into play. the legal aspect of my time is my time? when are you saving a life or changing one? i think it is good to keep the players on the team w/ no playing time or can't play in so many games. but practice with the team.keeps them in the loop. with a positive group.in our state you are of legal age for certain things at 17.

njbb i'm very sorry for your loss

In our state you are not of legal age to drink until 21. If that is the case then if you are in HS and drinking you are breaking the law not just team rules. Also the kids know the rules that if they are caught drinking then they are through. If they want to take the risk of being thrown off the team and not thinking enough of their teammates, possible careers, college, coaches and school. Then they need to be prepared to suffer the consequences.

Agree with bb


Here you cannot drink to age 21 so they are breaking the law

Also most schools around here have contracts the players sign before the season starts


Th players are well aware of the consequences but some of them feel they are above it all and can get away with breaking the agreement

There is also the other aspect of the parents responsibility in the home where this took place. They can easily be arrested for permitting it

Thank you 20dad.
Players are caught drinking, kick them off the team. Who is catching them? This is where I have the problem. Is the coach basing their removal because of an arrest? because they came to practice drunk? or because he heard they went drinking with their buddies Sat. night?

TRhit Good point about the parents. Also they are prosecuting anyone who supplied the alcohol in our state usually an adult but not a parent. Which I did for a few friends growing up. Looking back I can't imagine how stupid that was but I was just a teenager (state law was 18). Funny thing though I bought it for them but I didn't drink because I knew the team rules.

quote:

... schools around here have contracts the players sign before the season starts

This has been mentioned by more than one person. I submit that this is an example of school district administrators extending their authority beyond their boundaries. Penalties on teenagers for illegal substances consumed while NOT on school property or in a school sponsored event is the jurisdiction of law enforcement officials and the legal system, not the school principal or baseball coach.

A little more info about this situation...Coach has a zero tolerance policy which was brought up specifically in a team/parent meeting. The players also sign a code of conduct contract prior to the start of the season.

I learned last night, interestingly enough, that the players were "caught" by a coach (I'm not sure if it was the head coach or an assistant) via pictures of the players drinking at a party that were posted on one of the player's MySpace page.

I'm thinking that none of these guys will be the class valedictorian this year either.

For every action there is an equal an opposite reaction. If a player is aware of the rules and they are clear and spelled out. Then there are no excuses. My son has very high goals for baseball. He knows #1 his grades need to be excellent. #2 if I find out he is doing something he shouldn't the school will be the least of his worries. They won't have to kick him off the team because he won't be on it anymore. Playing baseball is a privilege and not a right.

dbg


I submit to you that if those agreements are signed then that is there is to it---school/coaches policy and that is it


don't ***** now--***** before you sign it

The beauty of baseball is the ever present possiblity of redemption. Mistakes are a big part of the game and one of the things that makes it so exciting is the way players adjust after failures and eventually succeed. You can see it in the short context of an at bat or in the long context of a career. The Josh Hamilton story is a great example of local kid, #1 draft choice, who made some bad mistakes and has recently redeemed himself. Zero tolerance rules eliminate the chance for redemption and often do more harm than good.

We should ask ourselves, why is it that there is an age restriction on drinking?

The answer is, because we believe people younger than that age are not capable of good judgement and making good decisions.

Why then is the penalty for, "breaking the law", so much stiffer for a person we deem not yet capable of good judgement than it is for an adult we deem fully capable. You aren't going to lose your job for DUI. You aren't going to have your drivers license forfieted for life for DUI.

The argument that, "they signed an agreement, therefore they knew the risk", flies in the face of the previously stated, "they aren't old enough to be capable of good judgement", statement.

Which is it? We seem to want to hold these young people to an accountable standard we are afraid to hold ourselves (society) to, and that is patently unfair. Sports should not be a place where mythical standards and irrelevant lessons are applied. It should be reflective of the real world, so real world lessons can be learned.

Should there be punishment? Absolutely

Let's make the punishment appropriate to the offense.

A couple years back, the #1 on my son's team (a senior who had just completed his finals)went
and got busted behind the wheel on the night before a playoff game, "arrested" for MIP. He blew a .08.

Cop must have felt sorry for him because he didn't book him, but rather took him back home to his parents. Not even a slap on the wrist.

Well the kid got the start the next day despite everyone (and yes the coach too) knowing what had transpired the night before. He did poorly, and the team played horribly. Clearly no-one was completely focused on the task at hand, and they got eliminated in an embarassing manner. The kid spread blame evenly amongst his team, but deflected all criticism from himself.

The rest of the story is predictably worse. The kid went on to play at a JC without ever learning the consquences of his actions, and got kicked off for smoking weed.

He's out of options now, but I can't help but wonder what he could have made out of a promising career had he just been given the right opportunity to learn from his first big mistake.

You have to know when to allow that second chance.

If the coach stated that this was his policy and zero tolerance then that's it. Drinking in HS is no more out of control than it was when I was in HS.

Coaches spend time on the internet checking out MySpace of their players?!?

As I said earlier, I am totally not in favor of under age drinking but am a firm beleiver that what you do off school property is ones own business and for parents to deal with. I always told my kids dealing with us would be their worst nightmare, but since my husband and I were once kids, we knew that it would be possible they would do kid things so our punishment fit the crime.

I am also a firm beleiver in setting an example, if I told my kids never to drink and drive, then we don't, don't ever come home with alcohol on your breath, then we didn't and we NEVER served them an alcoholic beverage or allowed them to drink in our home until they were 21. Did they drink while underage, yes they did, but as stated before, we taught them that their were grave consequences if they got caught, possibly ending up in jail.

Education begins in the home folks and as a parent I felt that it was my parental right to punish as I saw fit and trust me, I was tough, my son knew if any of the above occured he was off the team, we had no team rules for drinking but we had our own, IMO, too many parents (please don't take that personally) look the other way these days and THAT is wrong with our kids today.

For those that are of the notion that you think that your kids will never drink while underage, don't send them off college.

Our college coach told us, flat out, I dont want any phone calls saying you had been drinking and in a mexican jail at 2AM. I cant get you out.

Got a call from a parent saying they had dinner with a fellow travel team players family.Mom and dad drank 8 shots each before dinner arrived. They did this in front of their son, other player and his parents. Guess what the kid got arrested for underage drinking and resisting arrest.

Lost count of all the drunken parents have seen at HS Showcases.

quote:

Originally posted by spizzlepop:

He's out of options now, but I can't help but wonder what he could have made out of a promising career had he just been given the right opportunity to learn from his first big mistake.

You have to know when to allow that second chance.

Sizzle,
I agree totally that the kid should have been punished. Obviously in this circumstance, it would have ended the kids HS career as he was in the playoffs of his senior season.

Had this however been any other part of his senior season, do you think throwing him off the team would be the appropriate punishment, or do you think he might have learned that valuable lesson of consequences with a suspension penalty?

Not trying to incite here, just dialouge between friends.

Regardless of what I think about drinking by adults, minors, or athletes, I have learned that kids signing oaths or contracts with their H.S. coach is not a guarantee of anything, and that makes me sad.

I feel my son's H.S. coach was a strong, upstanding role model, and that all the kids had enormous respect for him. At the same time, year after year, I saw that kids signed their conduct oath with no intention of abiding by it. Good students, poor students, religious students, troubled kids, it didn't matter.

I am not saying every kid broke the rules, but rather that all the kids had an unspoken understanding that you had to sign it or you couldn't play. After that, unless they were completely & publicly outrageous, they could do whatever they wanted.

We tried to instill in our own kids that this was a black and white issue; if you sign the oath, you follow it ... but I think we failed.

They did learn where we stood. I recall telling one of my sons that I didn't care what happened to anyone else who broke this rule and that if I learned that HE broke it after siging the oath I would remove him from the sport. He later told me (after he graduated) that he honored the oath during the season only.

I would like to think that with so many kids using alcohol and worse that it WOULD make a difference if coaches and schools would enforce zero tolerance. But as has already been mentioned here, how is it fair to expect athletes to exemplify higher standards than non athletes?

Bottom line: yes, education and values do begin at home, but it has been my personal experience that many of us who feel we have a handle on this issue will learn in a few years that, no we didn't have it under control -- the kids just knew how to convince us that we did.

Tough topic!

ktcosmos

njbb - with regard to the players released last year in Nashua, 7 were drinking, one was not but he was cut along with the rest of them. The athletic contract clearly states that athletes found to be in the presence of drugs or alcohol are assumed to be using. That avoids the "I was just holding it for someone else" argument or the "here, just hold this for me" trick.

In this case, several of the young men went home drunk. Their parents contacted the parents of the young man at who's home they'd been drinking, and the young man's parents made him come clean to the coach.

There is no he said/he said here. If you were present and you knew the rules, you're cut. There are a lot of other infractions in the athletic contract that don't carry as heavy a penalty, but getting kids to make the right decisions when it comes to drugs and alcohol can be a matter of life and death, so its taken very seriously.

There is nothing on this thread that I agree with more than the comments of TPM that are posted above. We all agree that underage drinking is a problem. Most of us agree that if the team had a contract or policy known about ahead of time, kick 'em off (though I really do believe they'd be more effectively punished by being benched for most or all of the balance of season, let their peers punish them), most of us agree that the schools probably shouldn't have reach into our homes and outside of school hours.

What I don't see enough of, are comments about leading by example and principle, as TPM has posted above. Well said, mom.

What is the big deal? Make a rule enforce it. the problem is when you make a rule and you dont.

Does anyone know of any HS that DOES NOT have an Athletic Code of Conduct that references drinking?

quote:

tpm quote:
As I said earlier, I am totally not in favor of under age drinking but am a firm beleiver that what you do off school property is ones own business and for parents to deal with.

What concerns me are not the "good parents" like most on this site that would dicipline at home, rather the parents that blow it off. I want those kids to have to pay a concequence somewhere, not only because they should, but because my kids are out on the road the same time they are drinking with a free school pass. If you don't drink you have nothing to worry about, if you do the hammer comes down from every direction and one of them may hit it's mark. If you are a HS athlete or scholar with a dream, drinking is not something that's hard to pass on.

quote
I learned last night, interestingly enough, that the players were "caught" by a coach (I'm not sure if it was the head coach or an assistant) via pictures of the players drinking at a party that were posted on one of the player's MySpace page
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you would not believe what kids put on my space pages.and then they are so surprised that the police or school officials or parents see it. it's on the world wide web for gosh sakes. talk about bad judgement. i really think kids today think they are invisable to all. they are not as sneeky as we were.or we thought we were.

Rz,
When my son was in HS, he had a code of conduct to follow, no drinking, no drugs, no tobacco ON COUNTY SCHOOL PROPERTY. I do beleive that it had consequences but not to boot anyone off the team. I also feel as you do, my kids have been told to never drink and drive until they dreamt it, I never worried about them, it was the other drivers that I worried about. It's not the good parents but the ones who have no clue, or turn the other way ecause they don't want to know about it (lots of those out there these days).

Did he punish the player on the team that got drunk one night and hit a pole that almost killed him, no, did he punish a few kids on the team that were found drinking in a school parking lot one night, yes he also took away games from a player who was n chewing (not gum) during a game He also lived by the rule, if you are absent you don't play the following game because practice was mandatory and you can't be at practice if you are absent from school. If you are caught cutting school (unexcused absence) don't bother showing up that day. He wasn't the best coach, but he also knew that kids are kids, they mess up.
I agree having let down your peers and have them judge you, is the worst punishment of all.

As far as Frank's comment regarding what his college coach said a really smart college coach realizes that young men are away from home for the first time and are learning life on their own. There are rules, you would be surprised that coaches have some rules regarding drinking, but usually doesn't include getting kicked off the team. Then again if problems keep happening over and over to the same player I suppose you better pack up and leave. Besides, the older guys have a way of putting the younger guys in their place, a job that coach most likely they take care of, not him. Nothing worse that peer pressure!

What irks me are times when rules are in place and change for the circumstances. For example, no open containers on campus, but they leave out EXCEPT on football days in designated areas. Underage drinkers will be penalized but on football saturdays no one has no cue if you are 21 or not or even cares.

KmomNH
Sounds like the matter was handle very well, Parents were policing their kids

FYI
The organization that my son plays for checks my space and a player was drug tested because of somthing he posted.

quote:

tpm quote:
When my son was in HS, he had a code of conduct to follow, no drinking, no drugs, no tobacco ON COUNTY SCHOOL PROPERTY. I do beleive that it had consequences but not to boot anyone off the team.

Don't you feel that you should be punished for an illegal activity regardless of where it happens when you are supossed to be setting an example and/or representing your school? I know that I would have issues at work if I was caught doing a "naughty" outside the workplace, because it would be looked at as being irresoponsible. The penalties may not be the same, but there would be a penalty.

quote:

tpm quote:
It's not the good parents but the ones who have no clue, or turn the other way ecause they don't want to know about it (lots of those out there these days).

Thats all I'm saying, there has to be a penalty for a broken rule, many parents will blow it off. In our HS it's 6 games if you were at a party where drinking occurred and you have a 15 minute window to call someone if you are stuck there. It is a here-say rule, no pics needed, just the report of someone there. If it is story to get you in trouble it is an easy one to get out of it as your accuser has to confront you, and you have the right to call him on it with your own proof.

What I don't understand is how people can say that the school cannot carry out it's punishment if it does not happen on school property.

quote:

What irks me are times when rules are in place and change for the circumstances. For example, no open containers on campus, but they leave out EXCEPT on football days in designated areas. Underage drinkers will be penalized but on football saturdays no one has no cue if you are 21 or not or even cares

That to me is two rules that occur on different days and is well documented. As far as the underage drinking part is concerned it is illegal regardless of the day however the resources are not available to always enforce it. Law enforcement sometimes has to "pick it's poison" of what laws to enforce during a "combustable" event.

rz,
That was the code of conduct and I didn't make it coach did.


We taught our kids that they had to follow the rules where ever they went, set good examples, in school and out of school, student athlete or no student athlete. We tried to set good examples.

Maybe if more folks taught their kids that, we wouldn't be contributing to this discussion.

quote:

We all agree under age drinking is bad. Maybe it's just me but its kind of scarey coming from a attorney on the comment part of Due Process and the Ex Post Facto being hog wash. I read about three kids from Duke may challenge at least one of those beliefs.
I am a die hard American and dont waiver on our rights whether I believe in them or not

I don't disagree with you. I love that quotation that jazz music, baseball, and the Constitution are the greatest contributions that America has made to the world. I didn't mean that they were hogwash in general, not at all. I DID mean that for a juvenile, or his parent, to assert such "rights" when someone has committed (on videotape!) criminal acts, is. Criminals don't have constitutional rights to get out of the consequences of their criminal acts.

The Duke players are not analogous at all. They have been declared innocent of the crimes of which they were accused; that is a different situation. If the high school players in question wanted to challenge their guilt (which no one has asserted they do, especially since they were caught red-handed), then yes of course they are entitled to due process, reinstatment, etc. But for them to say, "Well, sure, we committed a criminal and illegal act, but you didn't TELL us that we might face athletic suspension as a result" (if that is the case), just strikes me as absurd. Whatever will teach them the lesson of their life is what should happen. Athletic suspension sure doesn't sound too harsh or inappropriate to me.

I doubt that any team has a written policy that if someone commits a violent assault, they will be kicked off the team; but shouldn't that be the result? (along with school suspension, criminal prosecution, and civil damages).

I'm probably all riled up because I am sick of bad kids acting terribly and endangering their own health and other people's lives. I am even more sick of their sorry excuses for parents (NOT talking about anyone on this wonderful site!) trying to get them out of the consequences of their own bad behavior and bad upbringing.

I also do agree that people should be given second chances; but second chances should happen AFTER the first punishment has been meted out. Otherwise, they are so very likely to commit a second, possibly fatal act because they have just learned that at least once, there are no consequences. They'll keep testing the limits, probably, until there are some.

We had an incnident a few years back in our region where a group of football players got caught breaking and entering a house and one had a gun in his possession--the school suspeneded them immediiately but it was overturned in time for the following Saturdays game---the reason--it was not on school property nor a school function

I ask one thing---where are the parents ?---if it had been my son he would have no way been able to play that weekend regardless of what the school said--his kneecaps would have been busted--- and these were not poor kids---all out of "plush" neighborhood

Drinking underage, no matter where,...off school property or on is against rules/laws ( city rules, school rules, athletic code of conduct, house rules, etc. ). These boundaries are imposed for a reason.

Regardless of the rule being broken where, regardless of the income level of the family,
if a minor violates these boundaries, the minor pays the price.
Its very simple, no gray area in my mind.

If the school, or the law let one of my kids off the hook for violating said law/rule ( for whatever reason ), I personally would be standing there to hang them back on it,...and they know it.

Second chance?
Nope, sorry.

When I was growing up my brother was given his last rights (he survived) and his girlfriend was killed in a prom night accident. A star football player was passing another car over a hill and my brother was coming up the other side. They hid the player from the media and accused my brother of drinking. In court the beer cans found at the seen were determined to be not from my brothers car but from the star football players. My brother won his case but will never be the same. We don't know if that was the first time for this person being caught but I'll bet he was let off the hook at least once before and probably several because of his abilities as a football player. Where do we draw the line? There has to be some accountability by teenagers for their actions especially if it is also illegal activity.

I would never condone teenage drinking, however kids will be kids. That doesn't excuse the behavior for me. But, imagine if we had all suffered real consequences for all of our teen actions. I did not use drugs, but I did break lots of rules and laws along the way. If I had my young life ruined by one of these actions, I don't know where I'd be now. Personal responsibility should mean just that, but if you don't get caught enjoying some teenage shenanagans, then life goes on. If you do, the authority at the time also has some important and difficult decisions to make. Some today are too quick to judge and are willing to make kids pay ultimate prices just to set an example. There are many forms of punishment, and many to fit the crime. If a good student athlete has his (her) high school career ended by an over zealous school official, where will he (she) end up? He may blame the world and do something drastic.

bourdeux

quote I'm probably all riled up because I am sick of bad kids acting terribly and endangering their own health and other people's lives. I am even more sick of their sorry excuses for parents (NOT talking about anyone on this wonderful site!) trying to get them out of the consequences of their own bad behavior and bad upbringing
----------------------------------------------------
i mean no disrespect but you sound like someone who has never had their child do anything wrong. rule one as a parent never say my kid wouldn't because you never know what your kids will do. you hope they wouldn't.but you don't know. i don't consider myself a bad parent or my son a bad kid. but we sure have been through some bad stuff.
i have done it myself but painting that picture with such a broad brush isn't right. i hope and pray you never have any problems like this with your kids, and i mean that from my heart. it is the most difficult thing for a parent imo. as i said i mean no disrespect.

quote:

Originally posted by Coachric:
But, imagine if we had all suffered real consequences for all of our teen actions. I did not use drugs, but I did break lots of rules and laws along the way.

Sounds like most of the baby boomers that I grew up with!

I personally will never know the answer, I just know how I did it for my kids and it worked pretty good for us. Both of them, one 30 one 21, knew what was right from wrong and knew the consequences.

Parents set good examples and don't be hypocritical, if you did things that were illegal when you were young, don't preach to the choir, know that kids are kids, just teach them there are consequences to their illegal behavior. You cannot stop them or protect them from making bad choices. If that includes getting kicked off the team for drinking, though I am not in favor of that rule, stand behind the consequences. Parents like rules, it takes them off the hook, but the ones who have none in their home, usually are the first ones into the AD's office to complain.

In the meantime y'all have a great weekend, off to see my 21 year old.

"I went to a party, Mom"

I went to a party, and remembered what you said.
You told me not to drink, Mom so I had a sprite instead.
I felt proud of myself, the way you said I would, that I didn't drink and drive, though some friends said I should.
I made a healthy choice, and your advice to me was right, the party finally ended, and the kids drove out of sight.
I got into my car, sure to get home in one piece, I never knew what was coming, Mom something I expected least.
Now I'm lying on the pavement, and I hear the policeman say, the kid that caused this wreck was drunk."
Mom, His voice seems far away. My own blood's all around me, as I try hard not to cry. I can hear the paramedic say, this girl is going to die."
I'm sure the guy had no idea, while he was flying high, because he chose to drink and drive; now I would have to die.
So why do people do it, Mom. Knowing that it ruins lives? And now the pain is cutting me, like a hundred stabbing knives. Tell sister not to be afraid, Mom tell daddy to be brave, and when I go to heaven, put "Daddy's Girl" on my grave.
Someone should have taught him, that it’s wrong to drink and drive. Maybe if his parents had, I'd still be alive.
My breath is getting shorter, Mom I'm getting really scared. These are my final moments, and I'm so unprepared.
I wish that you could hold me Mom, as I lie here and die.
I wish that I could say I love you, Mom
So I love you and good-bye.

Unknown Author


I started with this poem because it relates and it's the week of prom here. I cannot recall ever being directly affected by a drunk driver, but I've seen the destruction of a drunk driver. I have also been directly affected by a car accident, the Class of 2007 lost a teammate, a classmate, and a great kid because he had stayed up too late and he fell asleep at the wheel on the way to football weight lifting. He met a tractor trailer on a narrow highway and crossed over the yellow line. The trucker rolled the semi trying to avoid it, but couldn't avoid it quick enough. I don't want to go to another funeral for someone my age again.

This topic is very important to me because I've seen the affects and I've helped portray the affects to our school twice in my high school career. The normal teenager "is invincible." If you don't believe me, ask one of them.

Underage drinking is a big problem in our society. Why? Because teenagers have an adventurous side to them and so they want to "test the waters" with alcohol or narcotics, whatever. Also, it is seen as being the cool thing to do and that's what high school is all about. I gotta be cool.

Athletics are not a right. I don't have the "right to play baseball" anymore than I have the "righ to kick your butt" because I want to. It's a privilege. With privileges come expectations. As a baseball player, I am expected to perform to the best of my ability 100% of the time. I am expected to obey the Athletic Training Standards as set by the school board. I am expected to be a model citizen. With this said, I wish to post another poem:

Little Eyes Upon You
There are little eyes upon you
That watch you day and night.
There are little ears that quickly take in every word that you say.
There are little hands all eager to do anything you do
And a little child who is dreaming of the day he / she will be like you

You are the little one's idol
The wisest of the wise.
In their little minds no suspicions ever rise about you
They believe in you devoutly
And hold all you say and do
So that he may do the same when he /she is grown up just like you.

There is a wide eyed little one
Who believes you are always right
And his/ her eyes are always open watching you day and night.
You are setting an example everyday in all you do
For the little one who is waiting to grow up to be just like you.

The first time I heard this poem was from my high school basketball coach. I believe this is something all athletes should hear because it's absolutely true that athletes are looked up upon and they are held to a higher standard. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

CPLZ, I find it interesting you are so opposed to the school representing itself with its best. I would not consider a law-breaker to be the "best" of a school. I would also like your son's input into this type of thing and how you are going to handle him attending an institution that will nearly tell him what he can and cannot do and when he can or cannot do it.

Finally, Waterloo High School's policy:

First offense: 23% of season (baseball that is 8 games)
Second offense: 1 full calendar year
Third offense: your high school athletic career is now over

This policy starts when you enter as a freshman and ends when you graduate (or are thru with school sports). For example, Joe gets caught smoking September of his freshman year. He plays only baseball. He sits 8 games of his freshman season. Joe becomes a sophomore and he's got a junior girlfriend who wants to go to prom. They hit a party with some adult refreshments afterwards and the cops show up. Joe finds himself in court and he finds that baseball uniform missing as he now sits til April of his junior year. So Joe is now in the summer between his junior and senior year. It's the 4th of July and Joe has a beer or two. He starts shooting fireworks and the cops happen to drive by. He's been busted again and this time Joe finds he no longer plays high school athletics.

Other extra curricular activities have policies as well, but I believe those are expressed in weeks.

------------
For any of you who might not know, I'm a senior in high school. I can honestly say I've never drank a beer, smoked a cigarette, or anything like that. You better believe I've been tempted at least once to drink. One of my sisters was known to drink underage.

I read this thread and I don't recall seeing any player input. That probably has to do with those guys are out playing! I'd like to see some player input as well.

www.mvparents.com

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

CPLZ, I find it interesting you are so opposed to the school representing itself with its best. I would not consider a law-breaker to be the "best" of a school. I would also like your son's input into this type of thing and how you are going to handle him attending an institution that will nearly tell him what he can and cannot do and when he can or cannot do it.

Finally, Waterloo High School's policy:

First offense: 23% of season (baseball that is 8 games)
Second offense: 1 full calendar year
Third offense: your high school athletic career is now over

This policy starts when you enter as a freshman and ends when you graduate (or are thru with school sports).

Bulldog,
By that comment you obviously mean that any person who has ever committed any offense can't possibly be the schools best. To that, my only response is that age has not taught you enough about human character. You cannot paint the world in such broad terms based on one event. Even your own school policy has temperance for first time offenders. It understands that a single mistake will bring consequences, but not the catestrophic finality of end to an athletic season. According to your logic, being good is defined solely by whether someone has not been caught breaking a law. That's a bit narrow as age will show you that even the best make mistakes, it's what makes us human. What makes us a good society, is giving people the opportunity to learn and recover from those mistakes.

As to your comments about West Point, they lack understanding. It is easy at your age to think you know what something is, when actually, you are without much understanding. I would put your comments in that category. If you would like to learn more about West Point and what it really is and isn't, I'd be happy to share it with you in PM.

Good luck in the rest of your HS career.

CPLZ, you are the voice of reason on this thread. I'd like to know how many players on ANY team have never cheated, stolen, lied, drunk alcohol, sped, run a red light, broken a city curfew, etc., etc., etc. I would imagine there would be very few "best" players left standing if we knew the truth about everyone.

There are rules and when you break the rules, things will happen to you. Although I strongly disagree with many of our country's laws regarding substance use/abuse, I understand that fact. That being said I think there is a strong double standard set in our society regarding alcohol policy and laws in general pertaining to minors. If you are caught speeding in MA and you're under eighteen, your license is suspended for 90 days for the first offense. Once you turn 18, nothing happens. If you are drinking and you're under 21 and get caught, there are unending consequences that may await you. I understand the idea that younger people may not be able to make the same decisions as adults, but adults behave like children constantly (especially regarding alcohol). None of my friends drive drunk. I think our society has done a good job educating my generation about the dangers of drunk driving. To quote president Carter, I don't think the penalties should be worse than the actual effects of the action. Just my opinion.

Can I throw in that some colleges & universities now have zero tolerance? I know a number of kids at UGA who were booted out of school for underage drinking. They now have to reapply. They knew the policy, but took a chance and got caught. Others don't get caught, but they know they'll be kicked out if they are. Russian roulett, toss of the dice. The problem is that many kids believe they are invincible and extraordinarily clever, and no one will ever catch them. It's a sad thing to get caught and have to face the firing squad. Especially as seniors. Ouch.

The dictionary's definition of integrity:
adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty.

Ol' Shortstopmom's home definition of integrity:
Doing the right thing, when no one is looking.

Bulldog19, you are welcome to dinner at our house anytime! I like your way of thinkin'.
The very best to you this special Senior year!!

As much as it makes me cringe, I always seem to find a way to remind myself of the stupid mistakes I made when I was a teen. Yes, I’ve been there and benefited from a few second chances myself. The painful reminders help keep me honest in how I treat the kids that I’m charged with teaching.

I completely agree with the notion that the punishment fits the crime, but that’s not always going to be the case these days. Many lessons can be taught by example. For many, things are taught and learned the hard way. In the case I cited, a valuable lesson was lost by making an exception. I wish more effort went into teaching by example, maybe it would help kids better learn the difference between the way things should be, and the way things are. I also worry about the kids that don’t do anything wrong in such cases, as it’s easy to see how they could get the wrong message. It’s not easy for me to watch a kid become disillusioned.

School administrators don’t always make the best law makers. That’s not a knock; it’s just not an area of competence that can be easily added onto a person’s job description. Many admins are so caught up in the CYA mentality that learning and compassion are not even issues. It seems sometimes when rules for teens are drawn up we lose sight of the objective. In the interest of deterrence, fairness becomes the first thing to get thrown out. But let’s not make more excuses for the way things are. Kids need rules, and they need to know that the rules don’t bend for them.

Honestly, and for the life of me, I can't understand how we are so eager to put an at risk kid into a dangerous situation by removing all natural life supports in order to teach him or her a good lesson. That kind of punishment should be reserved for adults, and youths that are dangers to society. By kicking an SA off a team, you risk punishing him irrevocably by removing what is most dear in his life, sometimes forever. You run the risk of pushing them further out to the fringe. We’ve got to be real careful how we dole that punishment out.

CPLZ, I’m more inclined to making them sit with their peers while they watch. The punishment would still be not playing, but someone, actually many, would be watching them.

I really don’t know how athletes in our society got to the point where they’re held to a higher standard, but to state the obvious, it is what it is. It seems odd to me that we want our entertainers and celebrities to be more than a little naughty- a DUI for a celeb can be a badge of honor, unless they go on an anti-Semitic rampage like Mel Gibson. Not our athletes though, they’ve got to be perfect.

Someone here brought up the concept of peer pressure, sometimes known as shame. Shame is a very effective mechanism for social change, maybe more effective than guilt, and it’s something that teens understand very well. Maybe we should use it more.

S-POP - my thoughts just better said, also why do we hold baseball players to a higher level then football and basketball players?

quite a few thoughtful views expressed

I gotta feel like I'm living on borrowed time coming from an era when the legal age was 18 ..
going out in a car with no seatbelts, freon in the AC, & a tank full of leaded gas
I need mention the flagman holding up traffic on the interstate for drag race heats only if the statute of limitations has run out


it's hard to believe UGA is really that tough ...
a freshman footballer & enterprenure was wrist slapped for manufacturing fake ID's for sale,

tho another player was told to hit the road after breaking into UGA to steal files on his 2nd (reported) offense drunkeness hearing

UGA has become so tough because it's gotten so much bad press over the years for problems with drinking. (Not that it's now a puritan school...)

I believe you actually must be caught red-handed in some way, and these kids were drinking at a game. I've also heard a number of others were booted because of frat parties.

Have been told that a athlete can not legally be held to a higher standard than a regular student, basically you can not take action against a athlete unless the violation is one that would be imposed on a regular student for the same violation.

Comments ??????????

I know I've mentioned this before but I'd like to once more, I know Bulldog19. One of the best kids from one of the best families I've ever met!

Regarding drinking etc. We played a game this weekend on the road. As we drove to that game, I pointed out to my coaching staff the point where a tragic car wreck occurred when I was in school. While no one died, most of the guys in that wreck were unable to recover. Personally, I have never had a drink. I think it tragic that most don't believe that statement. "Having a beer," has become a "right of passage" it seems in our society. Sad! I often speak to my team about drugs and alcohol. I tell them that I understand all of the pressure and I hope I demonstrate that you can have a great life without alcohol or drugs. (BTW, I've always tried to keep my religious beliefs seperate from this discussion.) In the end, we have to temper our reactions, trust that our school code is fair, and do what is best for both program and kid. JMHO!

quote:

Originally posted by obrady:
As a new resident to Texas, we informed day one that if a player even attended a party where alcohol was present, they better leave. He said that last year, a kid had a picture taken of he and his girlfriend at such a party, the picture was posted on the web and in the back ground was someone with a beer. UIL rules, he was dismissed form the team.

He wasn't dismissed from the team, but expelled for 5 days. He couldn't play games or attend workouts during that time.

quote:

Originally posted by Coachee:
Have been told that a athlete can not legally be held to a higher standard than a regular student, basically you can not take action against a athlete unless the violation is one that would be imposed on a regular student for the same violation.Comments ??????????

Participating in Athletics and representing your school is a privilage and with privilages there is responsibility. While in the eye of the law there is not a "separation" in the the eye of the athlete there should be an amount of personal pride that separates you from the rest. Athletes often put themselves on a pedistal until they slip and then use the "excuse" that they should not be treated any differently.