Playing High School vs. Playing Travelball

Sounds like you fully recognize the intangible values of a kid playing baseball with his high school friends.  I understand your thinking that he may not develop or advance his skills much playing with his high school team.  But I live in OC as well and there is no chance that he will not get to experience great competition and kids in his school and on the opponents that are not just as driven as kids on travel ball teams.  Sure there are some kids who are just not that serious but they will drop out of the program by the time your son is on varsity.  There is a ton of talented kids in SoCal and the high school games and rivalries are a huge part of a player' s experience. 

I am not sure I understand the issue with the travel ball team and letting down the coach.  The top travel ball teams in SoCal all shut down during high school baseball season.  The only travel teams that I know of that play in the Spring are mostly filled with kids who could not make grades to stay on their high school teams or could not get along with their coach (or were not good enough to play on their HS team).  I don't care how much talent those kids may have, that is not a group I'd want my son playing with.   Your son has 6 months to play with his travel team in the Summer and Fall.  That is more than enough time to improve and get exposure to college coaches. 

Finally, I am not sure I understood the reference about you coaching with the high school coach?  Are you an employee of the high school?  Are you also a coach of the travel ball team?  

I appreciate your reply. I meant to say my son's travel ball coach lets me sit in the dugout during games and practices and yes, coach a player when needed be. To where as the high school coach don't even want to say hi. Like I said it's complex, we are more comfortable in the travel ball realm as opposed to the high school environment. my son wouldn't be in this situation if not for his current travel ball coach. His travel ball coach is an authoritarian compared to a softer frosh high school coach who is not on the players as much, my son needs that, it's made him a better player. It's a mix of loyalties and appreciation as well, fueled by having to initially take a step down, in order to make a step up on the high school baseball program ladder. I'm concerned because he has not played as long as other travel ball players and taking 4-5 months away from this organization can be detrimental to his development in the long run. He has made great strides with this club.

Ha, your last paragraph is a new thread for me to address in the future. What I will touch on is this, you are correct about SOME of those players and why they play spring ball instead of high school. There is now a small movement of players for whatever extenuating circumstances they may have, starting to play club ball year around. I noticed the home schooled kid is representing among this group of individuals. I have also seen a number of these individuals get scholarships to play at the next level, which is the purpose of this organization. Thank you for your time.

My son didn't enhance his skills on school teams or travel teams. He did it with all the extra work he did away from both teams. It was a work ethic that first showed up in LL. Imagine going to the LL field four miles away when the Ripken field was within walking distance. He wanted to know every bounce on the field playing short. He wanted to know every caroom of the backstop when he caught. This escalated to hitting line drive gapped after gapped and balls straight over his head until he dropped from exhaustion.

His JV coach freshman year played in the Big 12. The varsity coach played at a ranked D2. They both knew their stuff. I asked my son what he learned from them. He said he would have learned a lot had my travel team coaching staff not already taught him the stuff at 13u to 16u/when a 15yo freshman. Along with myself I put together a staff of four former college players/two pro.

Obviously travel ball is better ball. But the high school,experience was great. The difference is at the end of the season in high school you win or go home. There's nothing better than watching a team get to the dogpile then come off the field with grins so wide it could break their face. Plus it's with kids that go all the way back to LL and other youth sports. 

I read all the time that travel will replace HS but yet all the drafted and top college Players Play both HS and travel. there is enough time after the HS season to Play travel.

from a skill developement perspective HS ball is probably not needed but if I was a college Coach I would be worried that a Player who doesn't Play HS has a complicated personality/parents.

I understand Club ball can be more comfortable but what I have heard college ball is even worse than HS ball when it Comes to rough coaches etc. probably better get used to it now, his college Coach won't let dads in the dugout either.

I love high school ball, the coach is no better then average or below, the team commitment isn't where it should be, some of the kids tend be lazy (because the coach allows it) but at the end of the day it is just about winning, no recruiting, no colleges, no batting 12 kids in a line up, no throwing a pitcher you don't want to because a school is there to see him...just baseball.

Hitting4dudes, thanks for the effort in the post.  It's good to read about other families journeys.  Like you said, everyone's journey is different.

At 12U, I specifically looked for an org for my son that did not let dad's in the dugout, assist at practice, or talk about playing time to the parents.  Hopefully it has helped him for whatever adversities he faces in HS, whether sports or school.

"At 12U, I specifically looked for an org for my son that did not let dad's in the dugout, assist at practice, or talk about playing time to the parents.  Hopefully it has helped him for whatever adversities he faces in HS, whether sports or school."...Go44Dad

We actually set that as our rule when NTGson was first recruited to play 8U Travel....He's now pitching for a D-1 dream school (academic and career first/baseball second). He played at the highest level of Travel he could attain, played for his HS summer league from the time he was a rising 8th grader till his senior year, played Fall Ball at the HS all 4 years, played Spring Varsity all 4 high school years, stayed with the same organization from his 14U day till the completion of his 17U Travel schedule.

Please note that we didn't send him off to a bunch of Showcases, just one or two each year where we knew the schools in which he was interested would be working. We sent him to one summer camp each summer from his rising 7th grade summer till his rising sophomore summer. He committed in August of his rising senior year.

NTGson was not a "stud", was not a draft prospect but definitely a quality player whose attributes were appreciated by enough college coaches that his decision on which school to attend was very stressful.

Hopefully he will have a wonderful career, his team will win its conference all 4 years, make the Regionals, Super Regionals and Omaha. But if not, he'll have had the experience of playing collegiate baseball and also being part of the summer collegiate baseball scene.

Yeah, I'm with go44.  Hitting4dudes - love your pride, enthusiasm and involvement with your son.  Glad you posted.  Glad to hear your son is a hard worker and making nice progression.  But, be careful with the "dad in the dugout" aspect.  

I am a HS coach and I purposely take a little bit of a stand-offish approach with parents and have clear rules that they are to be nowhere near the dugout.  This starts immediately with our JV level.  It's HS.  It's time for these young men to learn to handle their own business with as many aspects of their young lives as is reasonable.  Once they see the structure and purpose, and their sons have taken the proper lead roles, I become much more open to outside-the-lines dialog with the parents.   I have also coached travel and showcase ball.  There are different elements in play with regards to parent interaction.  In some ways, apples and oranges.

There are so many pitfalls to having the "dad in the dugout" scenario...   Actually, I'm a little bit surprised you don't seem to be more sensitive to this considering you have older kids who have all played HS sports.  That's not to say that there can't be scenarios where a dad coach makes sense.  There often are very good ones.  But they must make it clear they are there, at all times, as Coach and not as Dad or son's advocate.

I also coach in the Calif. Southern Section.  Agree with backstop - your concerns with missing four months during HS season are unwarranted.  The vast majority of best players in the region play both HS and travel.  Travel programs adjust accordingly.  

We look forward to hearing more about your son's journey.  Enjoy it!

Go44dad posted:

Hitting4dudes, thanks for the effort in the post.  It's good to read about other families journeys.  Like you said, everyone's journey is different.

At 12U, I specifically looked for an org for my son that did not let dad's in the dugout, assist at practice, or talk about playing time to the parents.  Hopefully it has helped him for whatever adversities he faces in HS, whether sports or school.

daddy in the dugout frequently doesn't end up well for the player

I'm with Cabbage.  My youngest is a HS senior who is a 4 year varsity player on 2 teams. Other than discussions about injuries, I've yet to have any kind of conversation about him as a player with either coach.  Same with our eldest son.

Another for a hands off attitude towards the HS coach.  We happen to be friends with his HS coaches.  My wife is an administrator in the district my son attends.  We socialize with his coach from time to time.  I have had all of 1 conversation with the coach.  It went something like this.  Coach, "Hey joes87jr had a great game".  Me, "thanks, hey wanna beer". 

cabbagedad posted:

Yeah, I'm with go44.  Hitting4dudes - love your pride, enthusiasm and involvement with your son.  Glad you posted.  Glad to hear your son is a hard worker and making nice progression.  But, be careful with the "dad in the dugout" aspect.  

I am a HS coach and I purposely take a little bit of a stand-offish approach with parents and have clear rules that they are to be nowhere near the dugout.  This starts immediately with our JV level.  It's HS.  It's time for these young men to learn to handle their own business with as many aspects of their young lives as is reasonable.  Once they see the structure and purpose, and their sons have taken the proper lead roles, I become much more open to outside-the-lines dialog with the parents.   I have also coached travel and showcase ball.  There are different elements in play with regards to parent interaction.  In some ways, apples and oranges.

There are so many pitfalls to having the "dad in the dugout" scenario...   Actually, I'm a little bit surprised you don't seem to be more sensitive to this considering you have older kids who have all played HS sports.  That's not to say that there can't be scenarios where a dad coach makes sense.  There often are very good ones.  But they must make it clear they are there, at all times, as Coach and not as Dad or son's advocate.

I also coach in the Calif. Southern Section.  Agree with backstop - your concerns with missing four months during HS season are unwarranted.  The vast majority of best players in the region play both HS and travel.  Travel programs adjust accordingly.  

We look forward to hearing more about your son's journey.  Enjoy it!

 

cabbagedad nailed it. Travel programs and HS programs have learned to co-exist very well. Hell, it's actually a good thing being that the travel programs can spend a little more time on their pre-HS aged players during that period. If you are in an area like OC, I would imagine your team, even if not a great team itself, sees at least 2-3 solid to very good HS teams each year. I have taken a back seat in coaching my son for a while now. We still go and get our work in, but that is supplementary to what his paid coaches are doing with him, to reinforce what they have taught and to get more reps. But as with anything, you don't want to overdo it. They have to have something of a life outside of the sport, or else it becomes blurry as to whether it is "their dream" they are pursuing. If you really want to see where your kid stacks up, take them to a college prospect camp and see how they compare against kids 1-2 years ahead of them. Can they hold their own? Where are their weaknesses?

My son has played for all kinds of coaches - coaches who have closer relationships with some parents and coaches who are standoff-ish. I personally prefer the coach who does not have relationships with parents, at least not glaring ones. It's just easier to talk to my son after he comes home about what happened at practice with the (maybe naïve) impression that all players are treated equally, without conflicts of interest. I can honestly say I think this occurs on both my son's HS and travel teams, although both team's coaches are really good men who will chat with you about anything. All of my son's coaches have either played professionally or at D1 college programs...he has played for "top level" travel programs whose coaches haven't played above Juco level, yet they are very successful at getting players recruited and drafted. So like RJM said, most of the player's development comes outside of practices and games. Some kids just have "it." Some kids need to work their tails off and get a break. I cannot tell you how many kids I see who get committed to a D1 college who, when you look at their stat line, aren't the second coming of Derek Jeter or anything. It takes a little luck along the way, having a good game at the right time with the right person watching.

Here is a question for the parents on here with college players: How much time did the college coach actually spend watching your player prior to making a gesture of interest? 1 game, 2 games...1 inning?

My son plays in a high school league that has a lot of talent. College players on each team. He plays summer and fall ball in a league where most of the players will play at some level in college. The over all talent base is higher. They travel to PG events and other showcase tourneys around the country. He has many friends on BOTH teams. We always end up having kids over or picking him up from a teammates house. That being said, it would be very tough for me to say that it is less important for him to play for his  high school. So much pride and competition with kids he grew up playing against. I value those things too. 

Fwiw, we were brought in before freshman season began and told that the coach would only talk to parents on extreme circumstances. He would rather the parents relay info to the coach thru the kids. It helped them get mature faster and helped us trust the kids more. We email the coach with various reasosn but after three years my son does all the talking to the high school coach. Travel team is not as strict but the parents naturally give them room to operate. They are more used to to being self sufficient and talking to adults from the tourneys they travel to constantly.

Every ones input is greatly appreciated and I feel like all of you are like coaches in your own regard. You guys know your stuff! I want to clarify something, I have no desire to coach my son. Input and problem solving is all I am pretty much doing with him these days. Between his HS and club team, he has plenty of coaching and practice. Secondly, I guess I put it the wrong way, I don't want to be in my son's HS dugout, it's high school. All I was trying to say was, my son's club coach who worked for MLB, lets me coach. My son's HS coach does not even want to say hi or make eye contact. He is big leaguing me, that's not right. Nobody is on your leg coach, you should get to know someone before you make a sound judgement, sad. My son's club coach does not play that daddy ball jive either.

He waited 7 months before he invited me on the diamond to help out. I am not going to quote the man, but I will say he does not look at me like other parents. He don't just let any dad coach in the dugout. Nor do I assume most dads don't wanna be in there anyways. He knows when I'm in the dugout I'm plugged into the game and focused on all the players. I make it a point to pretty much, when it comes to my son, stay clear and let the other coaches deal with him and they know it to. It comes down to trust, somebody has to believe in you, to get an opportunity.

 When my son can't play for his club team come February, I'm still going to pay my dues and coach at practices and games that he will not be allowed to play in because of CIF rules that need to go. Players are what keep me coming back, they are the game. They are good young people who are finding there way in life and deserve to have people in their lives who have high expectations and belief in them. All your replys are helping me a lot and I am pretty sure helping out others as well. Appreciate you all and plan on posting again on Thanksgiving...

Maybe he doesn't want dads in the dugout because he thinks that causes other dads to think he is favoring your Kids because you hang out in the dugout.

this is not about your qualification as a Coach. you might very well be qualified for it but HS is just different than TB. TB is an activity were parents pay to Play their kid. even if your TB Coach is better than the JV Coach which very well might be true a TB Coach still doesn't face the same pressure by other parents and School politics.

He might just want to Keep some distance between parents and himself to avoid those political Problems. I'm sure you could help the Team and you would not Focus on your son but imagine the following Thing:

your kid Plays SS and gets the Job of the previous SS. than the dad of this kid might accuse the Coach of prefering your kid because you help with Coaching, even though that is not true and your kid just is a better SS. that would be a very unpleasant Situation for your HS Coach.

I'm pretty sure he doesn't do that because he thinks that he is better than your MLB travel Coach but to avoid political complications and Dad issues.

hitting4dudes posted:

Every ones input is greatly appreciated and I feel like all of you are like coaches in your own regard. You guys know your stuff! I want to clarify something, I have no desire to coach my son. Input and problem solving is all I am pretty much doing with him these days. Between his HS and club team, he has plenty of coaching and practice. Secondly, I guess I put it the wrong way, I don't want to be in my son's HS dugout, it's high school. All I was trying to say was, my son's club coach who worked for MLB, lets me coach. My son's HS coach does not even want to say hi or make eye contact. He is big leaguing me, that's not right. Nobody is on your leg coach, you should get to know someone before you make a sound judgement, sad. My son's club coach does not play that daddy ball jive either.

He waited 7 months before he invited me on the diamond to help out. I am not going to quote the man, but I will say he does not look at me like other parents. He don't just let any dad coach in the dugout. Nor do I assume most dads don't wanna be in there anyways. He knows when I'm in the dugout I'm plugged into the game and focused on all the players. I make it a point to pretty much, when it comes to my son, stay clear and let the other coaches deal with him and they know it to. It comes down to trust, somebody has to believe in you, to get an opportunity.

 When my son can't play for his club team come February, I'm still going to pay my dues and coach at practices and games that he will not be allowed to play in because of CIF rules that need to go. Players are what keep me coming back, they are the game. They are good young people who are finding there way in life and deserve to have people in their lives who have high expectations and belief in them. All your replys are helping me a lot and I am pretty sure helping out others as well. Appreciate you all and plan on posting again on Thanksgiving...

Are you referring to the rule that during the season of the sport, an athlete can't play for both his high school and an outside program? It seems to work pretty well for baseball, with all of the travel programs shut down Feb - May . . . and at least in SoCal what's generally considered the strongest high school baseball in the country . . .

I like that CIF rule. It helps prevent the sort of arm abuse that too often happens in travel ball.

JCG posted:

I like that CIF rule. It helps prevent the sort of arm abuse that too often happens in travel ball.

... and also helps preserve the quality of the game at the last/highest level where it is still pure baseball - not a business and not designed as a means to the next level.