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Please tell me if i was wrong

I was an assistant coach for a freshman team this year and we had a runner on first with a batter up. Our batter hits the ball and somehow drops his bat and hits the other teams catcher on the arm. I am coaching first base and the umpires calls time and comes over to my runner at first and tells him that since he injured the catcher(the catcher was fine!) that if there was a play at the plate with my runner on first he was automatically out. Thats when i lost it and got in his face and almost got ejected before the guy i coach with stopped me. Is this even an exceptable ruling from an umpire and if he would have followed through with it what could i have possibly done?

FYI the first thing this ump said to me when he walked up was"i hope this game gets over with quick so i can take my mom out to dinner" and he would yell at my batters when they would step out in the middle of an at bat. Mad
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The umpire had the right to tell either you or your player to take care when dropping the bat. There was no need to discuss the "what ifs". He should have also not implied he was watching the clock. That was unprofessional.

NFHS rules sate that once players enter the batters box they must keep at least one foot in the box in between pitches so unless time was called or a foul ball or a swing and miss he has the right to keep the batter there.

Coach, if you want to make it past freshman ball you will have to learn to control yourself. In HS ball the field is an extension of the classroom. A teacher would not be allowed to behave that way in a classroom and you can't do it on the field. There might be some extreme instances where you get into it with an umpire and it would be considered part of the game. In this case you "lost it" with little provocation and it is unacceptable. Take this as constructive criticism and learn from your experience
As a coach I respected the game. However I never was going to sit back and blindly accept an umpires decision when I thought he was wrong. Safe out ball strike are judgement calls. to think that umpires will not miss them is dreaming. there are bang bang calls and there are the ones that are obviously missed. It happens. the thing that always annoyed me was when there was a misinterprtation of a rule. during a game an umpire misinterpreted a rule. when I came out to discuss it he told me to get off the field. Now that sort of riled me as I was not going to let him be so beligeent. I politely told him he misinterpreted the rule in his call. Nothing. I went to his partner who was older and had been around the block so to speak. he smiled as he knew his partner kicked it. I asked for his help. the 2 talked and the correct ruling was made. the younger umpire was not too happy but the correct call was mad. an inning later the young umpire calls a balk on my pitcher. I asked what he did he tells me to keep my mouth shut. Now to all you umpires out there does a coach have to take that. he was mad because I showed him up on a rule? so he calls a balk on my pitcher tells me to shut up when I question him. Well not this old boy. I had a few words and yes i was tossed. Who precipitated the whole thing? if he would have got the first call right? that incident was about arrogance and a confrontational attitude.
quote:
Originally posted by Will:
that incident was about arrogance and a confrontational attitude.


We can match stories about umpires and coaches that fit this description all day, and what does that prove? That both umpires and coaches come from the general population and just as there are more competent people than others, there will be more competent umpires and coaches than others. Wow. What a concept.

My question to you is when you are working with an umpires who does not meet your standards, why do you decide to get ejected? Sure, in this case he screwed the pooch, but you were in the game until you made the decision to leave early.("Well not this old boy. I had a few words and yes i was tossed".)

How did that improve the situation? Wouldn't it have been smarter to stay in the game and work with your players? Don't your players benefit more from your experience and skill when you are available to share it with them?

Your last few posts indicate to that you had problems with younger of newer umpires. Most older or more expereinced coaches I know work through that.
If you believe an umpire has made a rule interpretation error, then go out and ask about it. If you can't come to an understanding then protest. At that point the two umps need to get together and talk about the protest and try to fix it. If they can't then they have to mtake the protest and have it heard by a protest committee.
There is NEVER a reason to get tossed from a game.
quote:
Originally posted by Will:
...when I came out to discuss it he told me to get off the field. Now that sort of riled me as I was not going to let him be so beligeent. I politely told him he misinterpreted the rule in his call. Nothing. I went to his partner who was older and had been around the block so to speak. he smiled as he knew his partner kicked it. I asked for his help. the 2 talked and the correct ruling was made. the younger umpire was not too happy but the correct call was mad. an inning later the young umpire calls a balk on my pitcher. I asked what he did he tells me to keep my mouth shut. Now to all you umpires out there does a coach have to take that. he was mad because I showed him up on a rule? so he calls a balk on my pitcher tells me to shut up when I question him. Well not this old boy. I had a few words and yes i was tossed. Who precipitated the whole thing? if he would have got the first call right? that incident was about arrogance and a confrontational attitude.


The best thing to do is report these incidents in an unbiased way to the Umpire association. Confrontation with younger umpires with little to no life experiences is not going to get you where you want to go.
Ive always tried to give thoughtful answers to all those who have come in to this forum wanting to know any information about real umpiring. I, and many other fellow umpires on here, attempt to give you the view from "working umpires".......

to that end.....

When someone comes in and titles a thread "Power Hungry Umpires"........I am suspect. Anything after the title arouses suspicion as to the motive of the questioner.......BUT, in the case that there is some shred of reality, I will offer the following....

In my opinion, there are 3 types of people who become umpires.....

People who like the $$$
People who like the authority
People who love the game

I dont have a problem with any of them........as a matter of fact, I should probably add:

People who umpire for the love of the game and enjoy being responsible for the conduct of the game and want paid for it...........(I fall into this category).......

Now that being said, there those in all 3 categories that should not be doing the job.........

The umpire in the OP is one of them.....

Moving on....I wont comment on Will's experience as I have done so to him on numerous occasions....Wills guy was a perfect example of an umpire who should not be doing the job.......


Now to our original poster.........

Yes, you should have been ejected.. When you are an assistant coach for the freshman team....remember that your duties are to hold the batting gloves, tell the runner to get back, turn left,etc......let your manager or head coach deal with the game officials........

There is my answer if you were really looking to get one....if, as I suspect, you were just trying to swat our bee hive and stir up a swarm........then my advice to you would be:

Nice try......but move on.......please.
Last edited by piaa_ump
Okay i was a freshman assistant coach cuz i am currently 20 and it's my first year of coaching. Second of all they made me varsity pitching coach this summer and thirdly i am going to pitch in college this year. I'm not some idiot who holds batting gloves. The whole year i didn't argue at all until this happened and i never argued after. When are umpires going to realize to just show up and call the game its not about them its about the kids. The umpires that called our games liked me, we would chit chat before innings and during the game...i am not some arrogant coach who looks to get tossed and pick a fight. Sorry i'm not perfect like all of you guys. And Piaa_ump who the heck do you think you are...chill out and dont lecture me and talk down to me like that.
Last edited by cchs07
cchs07,
I think you misunderstood. By rule, an assistant coach is not supposed to talk to an umpire.

NFHS 1.1.2 . . The captain and head coach represent the team in communications with umpires.

This isn't just a NFHS rule; it also applies in other rule codes. Some umpires will allow moderate conversation with an assistant coach, but darn few are going to bend the rules to allow an assistant to "get in their face."

Finally, I recommend a respectful attitude toward piaa_ump. He's been a source of good advice and comments for years on this board-- and not just in the umpire forum.
Last edited by 3FingeredGlove
quote:
Originally posted by cchs07:
Okay i was a freshman assistant coach cuz i am currently 20 and it's my first year of coaching. Second of all they made me varsity pitching coach this summer and thirdly i am going to pitch in college this year. I'm not some idiot who holds batting gloves. The whole year i didn't argue at all until this happened and i never argued after. When are umpires going to realize to just show up and call the game its not about them its about the kids. The umpires that called our games liked me, we would chit chat before innings and during the game...i am not some arrogant coach who looks to get tossed and pick a fight. Sorry i'm not perfect like all of you guys. And Piaa_ump who the heck do you think you are...chill out and dont lecture me and talk down to me like that.


Sir, you don't seem to understand, the only coach, BY RULE, who may hold an umpire accountable for his calls is the HEAD COACH.

Whether a D-1 game, HS Varsity, or, in your case, HS frosh, an assistant is well advised to keep his vocabulary to "back, back!" and "take a look."

I do not repond to assistant coaches, in part because of the rules and in part to keep them in the game. I will explain anything the head coaches desires.

If you do your job as an assistant coach, you will never be ejected.
I honestly didn't know that...and the ump never said anything about it at the plate. To clear the air i do not hate umpires and i know that most of them have good intentions but i am not going to let some idiot like this guy disrespect me and my players and make up a rule on the spot. Either call the batter out in this situation or give him a warning and let it go, dont hold it against him and the team cuz he dropped the bat.
cchs07,

You made a good start to your last post by admitting that you did not know the rule. Before that, you were pretty rude and inappropriate in your comment to piaa_ump:

"And Piaa_ump who the heck do you think you are...chill out and dont lecture me and talk down to me like that."

"Who the heck he is" is a very well-respected member of our community, who is very generous in offering good advice from many years of baseball experience. I would guess he has about 20 to 30 times as much experience in a position of authority on the baseball field as you do (his decades of experience vs. your 1 year of coaching so far).

You are the same age as my youngest son, so I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but you might think about showing some respect for those who have been around the block a bunch more times than you have. Wink And don't forget, you did start this thread by saying "Please tell me if i was wrong".

Julie
quote:
Your last few posts indicate to that you had problems with younger of newer umpires. Most older or more expereinced coaches I know work through that.


Jimmy 03

"work through that" any suggestions? Just sit back and let them blow calls and then act arrogant"?
As a coach you work day after day with your kids.They work hard every day. coaches work hard every day. the umpire shows up works a couple of hours collects his fee and goes home.

blowing the call is one thing but the arrogance is another.
I am with will---no arrogant umpire will get the upper hand---he can "throw" me if he wants but Jimmy000 understand this: many teams such as ours do not rely on the #1 Coach--- I am the Manager but my guys run the team on the field and are great at it---if anyone gets the heave it is me because the staff does not need me to run the game


The men in blue might think about their attitudes~!!!
quote:
Originally posted by Will:
quote:
Your last few posts indicate to that you had problems with younger of newer umpires. Most older or more expereinced coaches I know work through that.


Jimmy 03

"work through that" any suggestions? Just sit back and let them blow calls and then act arrogant"?
As a coach you work day after day with your kids.They work hard every day. coaches work hard every day. the umpire shows up works a couple of hours collects his fee and goes home.

blowing the call is one thing but the arrogance is another.



I take great exception to you saying we a couple of hours, collect a chack and go home. If this were true there woudn't be boards like this to ask questions. I have 34 years in the umpiring trade. I have spent more hours per day studying, teaching and actually umpiring than you coud imagine. PIAA and I are trainers for our respective groups and spend many hours teaching at fields, running clinics and just discussing rules and situations with other umpires.
As far as umpires blowing rues on the field, get over it, it's going to happen. Beside the fact that there are three basic ruebooks, there variations from league to league and tournament to tournament. As coaches you have to remember you pay 80% of the game with 20% of the rules. I would like to have a dollar for everytime I hear a coach misquote a rule. Ex-pro players do it everytime they announce a game on TV. They don't have a clue and played the game at it's highest level.
quote:
Originally posted by Will:
quote:
Your last few posts indicate to that you had problems with younger of newer umpires. Most older or more expereinced coaches I know work through that.


Jimmy 03

"work through that" any suggestions? Just sit back and let them blow calls and then act arrogant"?
As a coach you work day after day with your kids.They work hard every day. coaches work hard every day. the umpire shows up works a couple of hours collects his fee and goes home.

blowing the call is one thing but the arrogance is another.


It begins with you attitude and assumptions. As most professionals know, attitude colors everything.

You work hard and the umpires just show up get paid and leave, eh?

I am willing to bet I invest more time and money in studying, training, preparing and assessing performance than most coaches or players. I spend over $2000 annually on training, including travel and lodging costs. I am spend at least $500 annually on equipment and uniform upgrades and maintanance. My non-reimbursed gas expenses are outrageous.

I attend week long camps, week-end clinics, and weekly meetings working on mechanics and rule. I keep five copies of the OBR, FED and NCAA rulebooks handy for some amount of reading or study time almost every day. (One copy each in my car, one copy each in my bedroom, one copy each in "primary" bathroom, one copy each in my home office and one copy each at work.) I possess and study the JEA, J/R and BRD "casebooks".

When I am not studying, I working as the trainer and evaluator for my association. I also spend time as an interpreter of FED rules for my portion of the state.

I get to my games early, notify the coaches the crew is there. I spend time with my partner(s) going over mechanics and any new rule interpretations or situations that might come into play.

I work hard, stay focused and try my best to ignore arrogant coaches, wise-@ss players and ignorant fans (see, I can generalize, too). Fortunately, for me, those types are far outnumbered by coaches who act professionally, players who keep their mouths closed. Most fans, however, are ignorant of rules and mechanics and, if you listem to them, can be a real pain in the @ss. I've long since learned to ignore them.

After the game, my partner and I have post-game conference and discuss what went right and what may not have. When I get home, I clean my gear and then make an entry in a log that I've kept for 30 years.

When my check comes at the end of the month, I pay my gas credit card bill, put half of what's left into an equipment and uniform account and the other half goes into a vacation fund so that I can treat my family nice for putting up with my baseball fever.

Once you adjust your attitude, you then have to realize that umpires, like coaches and players, have to start at the beginning and learn their craft. Some umpires are bound to be beginners. If, however, you are getting a steady diet of beginners, you are either coaching at a low level, or fielding a time that is not very competitive or are in any area of extreme umpire shortage.turnover, or you somehow p!ssed off an assignor along the way.

The approach you use to an umpire when you want to discuss a rules intepretation is important. Keep in mind that your goal is to get the correct interpretation, not to beat up on an umpire. Bear in mind that the correct interpretation may not always be what you think it is. Keep open the remote possibility that you may be wrong.

Request time, and, civily, ask non-sarcastic questions aimed at finding out what the umpire called and why. You need to do this in an informative manner, not challenging, provided of course that what you want is a proper ruling and not to make a show of yourself "supporting your team."

If you are not satisfied, notify the umpire you are protesting based on the rule interpretation and not on the judgement call.

Follow-up on the protest and if you are correct and umpire was wrong, politely notify his assignor, if he was not involved in the protest, so that he can educate the umpire.

None of this is magical or obscure. It begins, as I said before with your attitude and is moved along with your demeanor and focusing on what is important.

If you act on the field as you portray yourself in your posts, I have no doubt that you have problems with umpires...often. Control what you can control and you will be amazed at how that can effect those things you cannot control.

I once wrote a handout for a local HS league on "How to Approach an Umpire and Still See the Rest of the Game". PM me if you'd be interested in a copy.
Last edited by Jimmy03
No one is suggesting "get over it" as in ignore it and pretend it didn't just happen.
Rather, check how you respond, and do it in a professional manner.

You'd be surprised. When you calmly request time, approach the umpire that made the ruling, explain, "I believe that is an incorrect application of the rules". I would appreciate it if you would consult with your partner, otherwise I will protest this application.

Any umpire (should) accept that as the correct and proper approach.

Rules applications are by far the toughest to master in any officiating discipline.

In BB, the big 6 anyone can comprehend, the miriad of rules will take time.
Sometime's an official protest or the promise of one is the way to do your part in educating those less knowledgable than yourself.
i appreciate the umpires but it seems like half of them just want to collect their checks and get the heck out of there. The umpires i had when i played and i coached this year were just plain bad as far as balls and strikes go.The umps i had for my all star team i coached were way better and they did it for free which was the best part. I would say 2/3 of the umps for my frosh games this year had strike zones from the chest to the ankles. I had good umpires so i know they are out there and i always gave them an extra thanks but most of them need to relearn the strike zone.
quote:
It begins with you attitude and assumptions
As most professionals know, attitude colors everything.

Begins with me? Is it not a 2 way street here. There is a call and I disagree. I civilly inquire and the umpire is arrogant and refuses to listen to me? Oh just let it go.

I did it for a long time and the majority of the umpires were fine. We had disagreements on occassion we had our say and moved on. then came the creeping in of this confontational style. It is an opinion based on many years of experience. towards the end of my coaching tenure I had a young umpire tell me to get off his field. Where did he learn that?
quote:
Originally posted by Will:
quote:
It begins with you attitude and assumptions


.... then came the creeping in of this confontational style. It is an opinion based on many years of experience. towards the end of my coaching tenure I had a young umpire tell me to get off his field. Where did he learn that?


I do agree with seeing more of the "creeping in of the confrontational style". Dad coachesof litle ball see how MLB/College coaches rant and they want to imitate. A portion of those coaches end up as asst's then head coaches in HS, with the same attitude.
Umpires, on the other hand, used to be more of the "Im sticking w/my call, right or wrong" attitude, but have moved toward the "get the call right" mindset, with more partner conferences, which is good for the sport. This, though, causes more coaches complaints about a call with the "ask your partner" comments that follow.

Will, should I judge ALL coaches by the way you act, right or wrong? Of course not. Then dont paint all of us due to 1 young umpires action in 1 game-- you are right about "Assumptions".
quote:
Originally posted by Will:
quote:
It begins with you attitude and assumptions
As most professionals know, attitude colors everything.

Begins with me? Is it not a 2 way street here. There is a call and I disagree. I civilly inquire and the umpire is arrogant and refuses to listen to me? Oh just let it go.

I did it for a long time and the majority of the umpires were fine. We had disagreements on occassion we had our say and moved on. then came the creeping in of this confontational style. It is an opinion based on many years of experience. towards the end of my coaching tenure I had a young umpire tell me to get off his field. Where did he learn that?


Yes, it begins with you. You are the one coming out to initiate the conversation and will set the starting tone.

"Creeping in of this confrontational style", goes against all evidence I have in my 30 year career. In my experience, umpires were more confrontation, at all levels, in the 70' and 80's than today. Today, umpires are encouraged to convene to get calls right and keep skippers in the game.

Where did that young umpire learn that? I don't know, where did the coach who told my partner, "I'll beat the sh1t out of you before you get to your car" learn that? The difference between my bad experiences with coaches and your bad experiences with umpires is that I recognize can recognize that they don't represent every coach and move on. I don't let a minority of incidences color the majority of my experience.

Now, pretending we're on the field, I'll say only, "Skip,we've come to the point where we're just repeating ourselves and it's time to move on."

Then I'll hustle to my next position and put this in the past.

Have a good day.
quote:
i appreciate the umpires but it seems like half of them just want to collect their checks and get the heck out of there. The umpires i had when i played and i coached this year were just plain bad as far as balls and strikes go.The umps i had for my all star team i coached were way better and they did it for free which was the best part. I would say 2/3 of the umps for my frosh games this year had strike zones from the chest to the ankles. I had good umpires so i know they are out there and i always gave them an extra thanks but most of them need to relearn the strike zone.



As a new Coach, there are some nuances to Umpiring that I feel you would benefit from knowing.......

To your first point.........there are umpires who only want to get their checks and get out...... Certainly there are umpires who are motivated by the financial return.........

I do not condem them for being motivated by the money, However I find that an incomplete motivation for me, as I have so much $$ invested in registrations, clinics, reference materials, camps, unforms etc....to make umpiring a valid profit center........much of the higher level umpires I know could do financially better working at a minimum wage job than as an umpire..........

That being said..... I do not umpire for free......and as I state before....there are some umpires out there that should not be doing the job.......

In HS umpiring, you often dont get the best umpire available, just the most available umpire......

For the vast majority of us, the 3:30 or 4 start is very difficult to regularly meet. Leaving early or taking vacation time from out regular jobs is not always easy to do.....Umpiring, for the most part is an avocation and not a vocation......

There is a shortage of Qualifed and Certified Umpires..........and as such our assignors will put the better, more qualified umpires on the Varsity games...........then the second tier officials to the JV games.....

My chapter only assigns rookies, entry level or our retirees to freshman games......... And oftentimes, freshman in our area only get one man..........

Many times, you will find umpiring outside of the HS ranks to be better quality.........Many of the better qualifed and trained umpires find that the 6pm start of summer ball or rec leagues easier to fit into their schedules......Large tournaments often scheduled over weekends will bring out the better umpires..........its a generalization to be sure.......but its out there.

Higher level baseball does not always insure you are getting higher level officials.........much of getting to the higher levels involves years of experience, contacts and attrition........and staying there can be done on reputation........even when your skills erode from age or injury.......Knowing when to scale back or fall back a level is not a skill we teach well...

As to your assertion that we need to relearn the strike zone, I would encourage you to search this site for the discussions here regarding the strike zone. There have been some excellent debates and views given by many respected coaches and umpires as to the zone.

It wont change your mind, but it will give you some insight into what we, as umpires think.....

best of luck.
In our area we send the newer guys to work lower level ball but we send an experienced partner, who is usually on the bases. That way we can observe the strike zone and mechanics of the new guy. At the end of the HS season this year, we had a middle school game that had two very experienced umpires on. The BU is a pro school graduate, a D1 umpire that has worked a conference tournament the last three years, and is the field mechanics instructor for our group. I was the PU, also a D1 ump and the local rules interpreter. We had more **** from the coaches than any varsity game either of us worked all year. At the end of the game the home manager was convinced the BU was horrible and didn't have a clue. I assure you that he never missed a call and never missed a rule but if you asked the manager the story would be completely different.
I managed a Pony team this year and I had a kid who was convinced 5 PUs in a row had a terrible strike zones. I told him to shut up and swing the bat. Also, I told him if he wasn't hitting 700 to never argue ball and strikes.
quote:
Originally posted by cchs07:
iThe umpires i had when i played and i coached this year were just plain bad as far as balls and strikes go.The umps i had for my all star team i coached were way better and they did it for free which was the best part. I would say 2/3 of the umps for my frosh games this year had strike zones from the chest to the ankles. I had good umpires so i know they are out there and i always gave them an extra thanks but most of them need to relearn the strike zone.


OK here is the CCHS. When an umpire does a frosh game he knows what he is getting into. The best freshman are usually on JV leaving the freshman team thin on talent. Of course this is not EVERY case but it is in most I have done. Unless everyone wants to be out there for 3+hours for a five to seven inning game the umpire MUST open the zone to include hittable pitches that would be called balls at the Varsity or even JV level. Coaches usually approve of this as they want batters swinging.

It is understandable that your all-star games had a better strike zone as it is a higher level of ball.

Opening the strike zone at lower levels of play is the mark of a seasoned umpire, not an inadequate one

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