Playball,
I agree with you on the fact that I doubt a college coach recreuts players based on a magazine ranking system. If they did they shouldn't be a coach much longer. But I see alot of people complaining that they just rank the kids that are at their events, that is not true at all. Additionally, the one who is known to only rank kids that attend their paid events is Perfect Game but I don't see anyone complaining about them. Probably because not many people see their rankings because you have to pay to see them on their site. PBR causes controversy in my opinion from parents who get jealous their kids aren't rated as high as someone else. But if college coaches aren't going by the rankings than what does anyone care about so much? Their ego more than likely.
Obviously as he see's more kids throughout the year at games, events, showcases, etc. Someone will jump out that's better than someone else and people will get added and dropped. By the time they are senior's I think the rankings are pretty accurate. If you look at the 2009 class, what can you really argue with? Some people might be more deserving to be in the 130-150 range but at that time it's a crapshoot. And I like the fact that he takes into account HS stats, he's not claiming to be a scout so why would he rank on projection? He's ranking IMO on performance, talent, and production which is fine with me. Does he miss, I am sure. So do the experts. Mike Piazza was a 50th round draft pick.
Nails, you hit the nail on the head, no pun intended. The younger the group of athletes the more subjectivity in rankings. You're correct, the 2009 group will probably elicit far fewer barbs than, say, the 2011 class. But one thing I do know is that no one ranking athletes sees these players more than Sean Duncan.
If HS stats are taken in to account in the rankings, then it would be prudent to move up some of the pitchers in the rankings. But again I don't think HS stats are taken much in to account for the individual player rankings.
So why is there such a preponderance of tall lanky pitchers with very good arms at the top of the rankings? Is it because they have the best records at the HS level, I think it could be argued that is not the case. There are plenty of others that fall in to that W-L statistical category that aren't at the top with these kids. So why aren't the POs with the best W-L records K:W ratios there? I think it is because the player ranking are more about projection, possible draft picks or maybe the players that could have the immediate impact at the next level. Unfortunately, the kids that have more of a chance to be given that shot are the tall lanky ones with live arms and no meat on their bones, and not necessarily the kids that are going 40-0 on the bump in high-school.
Obviously you guys aren't sporting a 142 IQ look me.
So why is there such a preponderance of tall lanky pitchers with very good arms at the top of the rankings? Is it because they have the best records at the HS level, I think it could be argued that is not the case. There are plenty of others that fall in to that W-L statistical category that aren't at the top with these kids. So why aren't the POs with the best W-L records K:W ratios there? I think it is because the player ranking are more about projection, possible draft picks or maybe the players that could have the immediate impact at the next level. Unfortunately, the kids that have more of a chance to be given that shot are the tall lanky ones with live arms and no meat on their bones, and not necessarily the kids that are going 40-0 on the bump in high-school.
Obviously you guys aren't sporting a 142 IQ look me.
Tim Barry is #1 for the class of 2011. The kid is 5'8 175, don't think that's very projectable do you? NOt only that but they comment on his huge freshman season he has at the HS level. I'm not saying your completely wrong but that example proves to me that how the kid did in the HS season has some bearing on their ranking.
quote:Originally posted by Nails:
...that example proves to me that how the kid did in the HS season has some bearing on their ranking.
Absolutely it does, and it should. I don't think anyone said that their HS play didn't factor into the rankings, only that their stats were most likely minimalized.
Nails, as you were told countless times before, it is not in your or the kids best interests to call out a kid specifically by name. Especially in debate. The counter-point to your position could be rather damaging to this young man IMO.
HS stats can be misleading. My son hit .453 as a junior. But, it was his third year at the varsity level. The conference teams knew him well and knew there were only two consistent hitters in our lineup. He rarley saw a fastball in the zone. I think his average, while excellent, doesn't tell the whole story. He also had over 20 walks. His RBI's were down because the other teams didn't want him to beat them.
Also, the official scoring beteween hits and errors is more suspect on that level, and people can even disagree with hits and errors on the pro level.
I think it is hard to use stats in rankings.
Also, the official scoring beteween hits and errors is more suspect on that level, and people can even disagree with hits and errors on the pro level.
I think it is hard to use stats in rankings.
Tuzi,
I used a kid as an example. The kid is ranked #1, you said only tall lanky kids are projectable and I used him as an example how he's not tall and lanky, therefore, in your world not projectable. Yet he's #1. So your theory is off. Just cause I used his name doesn't mean anything, people on here talk about kids and use their name all the time. Just cause you dont' like me please don't accuse me of doing something I am not. Wouldn't be surprised if your tattling already. I seen in another thread someone say a kid was terrible and won't be good and didn't deserve to be going to a school and used his name. Did you reprimand him or just me cause you don't agree with other things i said on here. Don't put words in my mouth or make up things I meant. What I said was harmless and actually giving the kid credit for having a great year and pertaining it to the thread. Go twist someone else's words and tattle on them.
I used a kid as an example. The kid is ranked #1, you said only tall lanky kids are projectable and I used him as an example how he's not tall and lanky, therefore, in your world not projectable. Yet he's #1. So your theory is off. Just cause I used his name doesn't mean anything, people on here talk about kids and use their name all the time. Just cause you dont' like me please don't accuse me of doing something I am not. Wouldn't be surprised if your tattling already. I seen in another thread someone say a kid was terrible and won't be good and didn't deserve to be going to a school and used his name. Did you reprimand him or just me cause you don't agree with other things i said on here. Don't put words in my mouth or make up things I meant. What I said was harmless and actually giving the kid credit for having a great year and pertaining it to the thread. Go twist someone else's words and tattle on them.
quote:Tim Barry is #1 for the class of 2011. The kid is 5'8 175
PBR has Tim Barry at 6'0" 210 lbs.
everyone comments on all these things. When people say someone should or shouldn't be on there they are criticizing everyone in front of them. So what, that's their opinions. Even if I or anyone was talking a kid up or talking him down it has no bearing. Nobody is going to read these threads and make opinions of kids based on what we all said.
My point is PBR did a pretty good job with the new book, HS stats are counted on as well as projectibility it seems. I'm sure kids are left out and always will be, either way it's a good book with alot of good players in it.
My point is PBR did a pretty good job with the new book, HS stats are counted on as well as projectibility it seems. I'm sure kids are left out and always will be, either way it's a good book with alot of good players in it.
This might be construed as negative from people like Tuzi, but he's 5'8. Might be 210, he's very strong. Eickenberry committed to Baylor, probably the best school anyone in the class of 2009 has committed to and he's ranked in the 30's. So I wouldn't get too caught up in the rankings, it's a good book though and very informative and a ton of kids are in it and recognized.
quote:Additionally, the one who is known to only rank kids that attend their paid events is Perfect Game but I don't see anyone complaining about them. Probably because not many people see their rankings because you have to pay to see them on their site.
You really need to do your home work. We even have kids ranked from Illinois who have never attended PG events. We don't just attend PG events ourselves and if we see a top player we have a history of ranking them accordingly. No one has ever paid for a ranking... EVER!!! That would be dishonest and we wouldn't have lasted for 16 years doing that. You don't have to like us, but quit spitting out false information.
Also, I'm willing to bet that more people (who count) see those rankings than any other rankings in existance. In fact, I'm positive about that. Furthermore, it is a fact that the rankings have led to many many kids being recruited by many of the top programs in the country. Where do you think ASU first heard about the kid from Illinois mentioned in another thread here? Once a player is identified as a prospect, he becomes an important item in recruiting. Trips are scheduled to see that player. BTW, We had Odorizzi #1 in Illinois long before he ever attended a PG event. Two of the top 10 in the 2010 class have never been to a PG event. However, I bet they will be at one next year.
Regarding the PBR rankings... I think they do a pretty good job. I'm sure they have helped a lot of kids gain recruiting interest with their rankings.
Well thanks for that correction. I am not one to say I am right all the time, if I was wrong about that then I was wrong. I was pretty sure that the only kids with comments and rankings were kids that attended the events. So you rank kids even if they didn't go to a tournament or showcase you ran? You have scouts that attend HS games and other events. I was under the impression those scouts from PG only attended PG sponsored events. If I am wrong, let me know.
Nails, we disagree most times, and agree once in a while. But that doesn't mean that I don't like you (although I don't know how to like or not like an Avatar). I think your take on the PBR ranking thing is not accurate though. There are reasons why the 2009s are where they are at, and there are reasons why the 2011s are where they are at. There will be quite a bit of reshuffling and you we'll see that the 2011 ranking will be quite different in a couple of years. Maybe a better analysis to challenge your and I differening hypothesis would be to compare the final rankings on the 2007 and 2008 classes and the current 2009 rankings.
And BTW, the last time I tattled on anyone on this board, I tattled on a moderator!
And BTW, the last time I tattled on anyone on this board, I tattled on a moderator!
I know for sure they will reshuffle. It always happens, that's my point. But I think come the fall of their senior year the rankings and kids in the mag are pretty accurate. I think the 2009 group is very well done.
As for PBR and Perfect Game, i think they both do a good job. They both miss on guys but who doesn't. Ultimately if your a kid though and not on these rankings I wouldn't get too down, there's always late bloomers and you can still make a name for yourself. The key is to look at these for entertainment and information but don't get mad or discouraged if your not in it or ranked where you want to be.
As for PBR and Perfect Game, i think they both do a good job. They both miss on guys but who doesn't. Ultimately if your a kid though and not on these rankings I wouldn't get too down, there's always late bloomers and you can still make a name for yourself. The key is to look at these for entertainment and information but don't get mad or discouraged if your not in it or ranked where you want to be.
quote:I was under the impression those scouts from PG only attended PG sponsored events. If I am wrong, let me know
We scout hundreds of events all over the country in addition to PG events. That includes JO, Sunbelt, East Coast Pro, USA Baseball, Area Codes, Lions Club Tourney, Diamond Club, etc. We also have a scouting department that includes over 50 full time scouts and hundreds of part time.
quote:Eickenberry committed to Baylor, probably the best school anyone in the class of 2009 has committed to and he's ranked in the 30's. So I wouldn't get too caught up in the rankings
If you know anyone in the Eikenberry ask them how it all happened. He had offers from several highest level colleges and was scheduled to visit Virginia next week. BTW, there are Illinois players committed to Stanford, Vanderbilt, Clemson, Miami, and other top colleges.
I know there are other kids going to great schools. There are other events, teams, etc that got these kids recognized by these schools. Great to see Illinois kids branching out and committing to out of state programs, top notch programs. Shows there is some great talent here and while it's hard, some kids can catch a break or get seen and attend one of these top 10 programs.
Hey, I'm not challenging the rank order by any means. I'm more interested in understanding the ranking methodology. You may never figure it out, but lets have some fun trying to figure it out; and lets not offend anybody in the process.
My son attended PG showcases and played in some of there event's.He had some offer's from junior college's his junior year.He did sign with a juco in southern Ill.But then he was invited to PG world showcase he pitch from the 88 to 90 poptime was 1.8 and hit okay was ranked 9.5. He just converted from a catcher to a pitcher while he was there. I will tell you that that showcase help him get to the D-1 he sign with a D-1 his senior year at the end of july. When he was in Alanta there was scout's from the sec/ big 12/ohio valley/and Missouri valley to watch him pitch. I think that PG was the right choice for this family. I am a big supporter of PG because of the competion and the exposure they draw. My son sign with the Missouri valley team and is a two way guy as of now.
It appears to me that these ridiculous rankings mean more to the adults than the kids. Fortunately, my son has no idea that this stuff even exists which is how I want it. The true ballplayer will achieve his goal through hard work and determination regardless of what PBR thinks it knows. The complete ommission of several top 2011's in northern Illinois is a perfect example of how meaningless these lists really are. I also find it comical that this nonsense is only available on a "pay-per-view" basis...certainly not worth my dime nor time.
Sorry Bravescoach but the reality is college coaches look at this list. We visited several schools this summer and many coaches acknowledged that they look at it. As far as 2011's go, I don't think that you can put a whole lost of stock in the ratings until the kids all pay at least one year of varsity ball fot that graduating class.
quote:Originally posted by RRF8:
Sorry Bravescoach but the reality is college coaches look at this list. We visited several schools this summer and many coaches acknowledged that they look at it. As far as 2011's go, I don't think that you can put a whole lost of stock in the ratings until the kids all pay at least one year of varsity ball fot that graduating class.
And who might those coaches be?
I think most college coaches have a subscription and do look at it. Once again someone talking about kids not being on there and getting mad at the list, who exactly is missing from there in your opinion? I'd also say most of those 2011's have played varsity baseball either as freshman or over the summer on the varsity squad and played against older kids.
If you go to a school's roster page, and click on an IL kid's bio, you will usually find a reference to his PBR ranking.
I'm not going to say names, but we did have one coach who opened up the most recent PBR edition and said "Let's see where you are ranked." to my son. He, of course, acknowledged that it was mostly used as a list to get leads but did say not to kid ourselves, schools look at this.
quote:Originally posted by RRF8:
I'm not going to say names, but we did have one coach who opened up the most recent PBR edition and said "Let's see where you are ranked." to my son. He, of course, acknowledged that it was mostly used as a list to get leads but did say not to kid ourselves, schools look at this.
Thanks, RRF8, but without a bit more specificity, I have nothing further to add.
quote:Originally posted by Nails:
I think most college coaches have a subscription and do look at it. Once again someone talking about kids not being on there and getting mad at the list, who exactly is missing from there in your opinion? I'd also say most of those 2011's have played varsity baseball either as freshman or over the summer on the varsity squad and played against older kids.
Nails...you know not what you speak of...go figure. Where, exactly, in my post did I say I was mad at this list? On the contrary, I think I made it perfectly clear that I could give a rat's behind. Moreover, I simply refuse to partake in the name game when it comes to ranking these young athletes as it only leads to the very same problems I complain of. Suffice it to say that I've personally seen each and everyone of these ("missing") kids play and am real confident that you'll be reading about them for many years to come.
quote:Originally posted by Fungo Master:
here we go.........
and its all DMs fault, again ....
I have two players committed to a Missiouri Valley school and neither have ever been in the rankings, have never been to a PBR event.One player had 8 D1 schools call him July 1 thru the 2nd. He is not ranked and if he were he would probably be in the top 5/10 for sure.
The other player might have been the first verbal they got?, not long after July 1. Neither one will have a blurb about their PBR rankings next to their bio page, they played in good tournaments and did things the right way.
The other player might have been the first verbal they got?, not long after July 1. Neither one will have a blurb about their PBR rankings next to their bio page, they played in good tournaments and did things the right way.
I know Coach Steele made a reference to the PBR ranking list in a post once. It is just a starting point for many of them to get names to check out. If you aren't on the "list" than I guess you are at a disadvantage & it is one more hurdle in getting noticed.
I agree with you NC42, playing in good tournaments and playing on and against good teams helps. By saying doing it the right way, I meant the old way...of just playing and having fun playing.
TNHN11, did the two players send PBR an email letting them know about their verbal commitments?
They might as well get the credit in the publication.
They might as well get the credit in the publication.
TNHN11- You are so right, if it isn't fun then find something that is.
I might have mentioned at one time that when I was in high school in AZ there was a similar magazine. The difference was that they didn't rank the players 1-100. They basically just identified the "Players to watch" by conference - it was less controversial.
Everyone knew who the studs were anyway. No need to rank Bob Horner as the top player in the State.....
Personally, I think the use of the radar gun makes rankings of pitchers more possible than in the 70's.
We had some stud pitchers around but honestly, no one really knew how hard any of them were throwing. We just knew you were really going to have trouble hitting them on any given day. Today, it is about the numbers.
I might have mentioned at one time that when I was in high school in AZ there was a similar magazine. The difference was that they didn't rank the players 1-100. They basically just identified the "Players to watch" by conference - it was less controversial.
Everyone knew who the studs were anyway. No need to rank Bob Horner as the top player in the State.....
Personally, I think the use of the radar gun makes rankings of pitchers more possible than in the 70's.
We had some stud pitchers around but honestly, no one really knew how hard any of them were throwing. We just knew you were really going to have trouble hitting them on any given day. Today, it is about the numbers.
RR...(one is on the committment list already) I have two players not yet committed as of today and I might send them all at once, but I am sure that not one of them even has heard of the magazine or seen the rankings.
I think the magazine serves a good purpose and is fun, subjective, and does alot of good. However, it by no means gets the best players ranked, in fact I dont know how they would unless they went from Cairo to Wisconsin weekly....it would be an impossible job....
It is way more important up there then down here, and should be you have 8 million people, we have 200,000. SI and Diggle do a good job of providing names but has I say impossible to cover everyone.
I think the magazine serves a good purpose and is fun, subjective, and does alot of good. However, it by no means gets the best players ranked, in fact I dont know how they would unless they went from Cairo to Wisconsin weekly....it would be an impossible job....
It is way more important up there then down here, and should be you have 8 million people, we have 200,000. SI and Diggle do a good job of providing names but has I say impossible to cover everyone.
It's getting people talking, it's recognizing some players. Of course they can't get them all, that's crazy that some of you expect him to get every single player. It's a good tool for some kids to get some recognition, why argue about the rankings, who cares. It's someone's opinion and based on the kids on there it's pretty good.
Most of you are saying some kids you seen should be on there, I'd venture to say that you didn't see the one's he has ranked on there, your only familiar with the ones in your area or your conference so to say the kids you know should be on there when you haven't even seen the one's play that are on in the rankings is unfounded. I'd also bet that he seen more players play than pretty much everyone on here.
Most of you are saying some kids you seen should be on there, I'd venture to say that you didn't see the one's he has ranked on there, your only familiar with the ones in your area or your conference so to say the kids you know should be on there when you haven't even seen the one's play that are on in the rankings is unfounded. I'd also bet that he seen more players play than pretty much everyone on here.
Nails you are incorret as usual, I have personally watched about 90% of the 09's on the list. Every player on there is a very good baseball player and should in my opinion have a nice college baseball experience.
TNHN11, can you provide the players that you are talking about? That way we can follow them after high school. They may even be future teammates of someone we know.
I have read all of your comments and although my son is not on the list here are my thoughts:
Does being on the list hurt any of these players-No.
Could it quite possibly help them get some attention that they may have not gotten-Yes.
Are there some kids on the list that do not belong-Yes.
Are there kids that are not on the list that were overlooked-Yes.
One thing is certain-If you attend a showcase or event sponsored by these organizations, a player will most definitely have a better chance of these organizations giving them some attention in their publication. Is it right or fair-of course not. It is just a real shame. There are kids on that list that did not play more than four times during their Varsity seasons and yet they are touted as the next coming. Is High School baseball important? It is all important and all competition should be weighed, not just the connection a player has to these organizations.
Does being on the list hurt any of these players-No.
Could it quite possibly help them get some attention that they may have not gotten-Yes.
Are there some kids on the list that do not belong-Yes.
Are there kids that are not on the list that were overlooked-Yes.
One thing is certain-If you attend a showcase or event sponsored by these organizations, a player will most definitely have a better chance of these organizations giving them some attention in their publication. Is it right or fair-of course not. It is just a real shame. There are kids on that list that did not play more than four times during their Varsity seasons and yet they are touted as the next coming. Is High School baseball important? It is all important and all competition should be weighed, not just the connection a player has to these organizations.
quote:Originally posted by ALCO:
and yet they are touted as the next coming.
I'm not sure that's an accurate portrayal of how the magazine characterizes those players.
quote:Originally posted by Nails:
Most of you are saying some kids you seen should be on there, I'd venture to say that you didn't see the one's he has ranked on there, your only familiar with the ones in your area or your conference so to say the kids you know should be on there when you haven't even seen the one's play that are on in the rankings is unfounded. I'd also bet that he seen more players play than pretty much everyone on here.
Wrong again, Nails. With respect to the class of 2011, I have coached and followed that group for the past 7 years and am quite familiar with the talent in northern Illinois at the very least. So with that, I'll take you up on your bet.