"The one "key" that stands out in my mind was the comment you made about the glove foot planted before the shoulder rotation occurs."
The shoulders starting to rotate before the glove-side foot is planted is a critical timing flaw. Of course, you don't see it much in major leaguers because a guy can't throw straight or hard if he does this. Guys who are prone to this flaw get shaken out early in the process.
Glad you found it helpful.
Sorry I was trying to sound like I knew something in your presence again BBscout. What does the BB stand for anyway. Maddux is not the only pitcher nor the only successful pitcher we've seen in the past twenty years, no doubt one of my favorite and one of the best.
BB
Went back and viewed many more times after reading your post.
What do you mean about what Coach said?
Shep
Went back and viewed many more times after reading your post.
What do you mean about what Coach said?
Shep
Coachric
Heard anything good your way? New preferably-lol
Shep
Heard anything good your way? New preferably-lol
Shep
Coachric
They lit it up! Both of them.
Shep
They lit it up! Both of them.
Shep
Yes Shep. I have a kid that I instruct that is CFCA's #2. He doesn't quite compare to Jacob. Somebody had a gun on him in late october and he was 89-91 and hit 93 5 or 6 times. Thats what I was told by the high school coach. I actually turned down an assistants position there this year. I like my free time, and I get to go around and watch all the kids that I train.
I don't think I see an inconsistency.
3:09 - Heel of glove-side foot plants. Toe about an inch off the ground. Back is arching relative to previous frame but shoulders not yet turning significantly.
3:10 - Glove-side foot 90% planted. Toe is 1/2 inch off ground (but spikes are planted). Shoulders are just starting to turn (maybe 10 degrees).
3:11 - Glove-side foot fully planted. Shoulders are accelerating (maybe 45 degrees). Look at his pecs pop out of the front of his shirt.
3:09 - Heel of glove-side foot plants. Toe about an inch off the ground. Back is arching relative to previous frame but shoulders not yet turning significantly.
3:10 - Glove-side foot 90% planted. Toe is 1/2 inch off ground (but spikes are planted). Shoulders are just starting to turn (maybe 10 degrees).
3:11 - Glove-side foot fully planted. Shoulders are accelerating (maybe 45 degrees). Look at his pecs pop out of the front of his shirt.
You type too fast for me. Yes I've seen Max S. and he is the real deal. His team B.M. is only a 3a school, but they are always as good as any 6a here. They had a catcher a couple years ago that I saw named Drew B. then went to ucf and I believe he was drafted last summer. Great arm and makeup. I think Max is even better than he was at this stage.
Coachric
Will probably get to see the no 2 also. Glad you told me. Thanks.
I like my free time too and will probably see some of your players. Going to erase code letters in previous posts since you know em.
Don't want the rest of the scouts to get any clues, they have those two anyway but never know.
Shep
Will probably get to see the no 2 also. Glad you told me. Thanks.
I like my free time too and will probably see some of your players. Going to erase code letters in previous posts since you know em.
Don't want the rest of the scouts to get any clues, they have those two anyway but never know.
Shep
BB thought you had moved on to summer league and private lessons.
Will answer question for Coachric.
BB stands for baseball???
Shep
Will answer question for Coachric.
BB stands for baseball???
Shep
Shep, you have a PM
To a degree it depends on what you define as "planted". Perhaps stable is a better term. The key point is that the foot can't twist.
I disagree how much his shoulders turn at foot plant. If you define foot plant as flat on the ground (versus stable), then I would say that his shoulders have turned 90 degrees at that point.
However, his total shoulder rotation is something like 145 degrees (10+90+45).
I disagree how much his shoulders turn at foot plant. If you define foot plant as flat on the ground (versus stable), then I would say that his shoulders have turned 90 degrees at that point.
However, his total shoulder rotation is something like 145 degrees (10+90+45).
Bob & Weave Marshallite.
It's called rotation into footplant. ALL of them do it.
It's called rotation into footplant. ALL of them do it.
"Shep, I was refering to the above statement which is 100% incorrect. It is not a timing flaw, as Maddux has great timing"
I'm not saying that Maddux suffers from this flaw. He obviously doesn't. Instead, he's pretty much perfect.
Guys who have this flaw usually have it a ton. Their shoulders start turning while their glove-side foot is several inches off the ground.
"by the time his foot is planted, he has nearly completed his shoulder rotation, much like all the other great pitchers."
What great pitchers are you talking about? This isn't true for Nolan Ryan (see frames 28.2 and 29.1)...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_NolanRyan.pdf
His shoulders only start to turn after his glove side foot plants (which creates a huge differential between the rotation of his hips and shoulders and helps to explain his velocity).
Neither did Seaver (see frame 24.1)...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_TomSeaver.pdf
...nor did Koufax (see frame 15.5)...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_SandyKoufax.pdf
I'm not saying that Maddux suffers from this flaw. He obviously doesn't. Instead, he's pretty much perfect.
Guys who have this flaw usually have it a ton. Their shoulders start turning while their glove-side foot is several inches off the ground.
"by the time his foot is planted, he has nearly completed his shoulder rotation, much like all the other great pitchers."
What great pitchers are you talking about? This isn't true for Nolan Ryan (see frames 28.2 and 29.1)...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_NolanRyan.pdf
His shoulders only start to turn after his glove side foot plants (which creates a huge differential between the rotation of his hips and shoulders and helps to explain his velocity).
Neither did Seaver (see frame 24.1)...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_TomSeaver.pdf
...nor did Koufax (see frame 15.5)...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_SandyKoufax.pdf
Sorry guys been-a-typing a PM
Definitely interested in good prospects in central FL
Linear>You guys doing that marshallite thingy again??? LOL\\//
Shep
Definitely interested in good prospects in central FL
Linear>You guys doing that marshallite thingy again??? LOL\\//
Shep
"It's called rotation into footplant. ALL of them do it."
This has nothing to do with Dr. Marshall.
Yes, the hips do rotate into footplant (they have to), but the shoulders don't.
What you are saying is completely contradicted by what the photos show.
This has nothing to do with Dr. Marshall.
Yes, the hips do rotate into footplant (they have to), but the shoulders don't.
What you are saying is completely contradicted by what the photos show.
Do you guys endorse and/or teach power V.
It can definitely be seen in several frames of the great illustration of Nolan Ryan by Coach Chris O., I will assume.
Shep
It can definitely be seen in several frames of the great illustration of Nolan Ryan by Coach Chris O., I will assume.
Shep
LOL BB MAC!
You are killing me softly
You are killing me softly
"Here is Koufax in a "real" film."
There's no question that Koufax's timing is different in this clip, although I would disagree that his shoulders are 95% turned at foot plant. By my estimate, Koufax's shoulder rotation is nearly 180 degrees, and at foot plant his shoulders are turned maybe 75 degrees.
I think part of the difference may be due to the difference in the pitch. In my frame, Koufax has a fastball grip. In your clip, he is throwing a curveball (which hits the outside corner for a strike).
There's no question that Koufax's timing is different in this clip, although I would disagree that his shoulders are 95% turned at foot plant. By my estimate, Koufax's shoulder rotation is nearly 180 degrees, and at foot plant his shoulders are turned maybe 75 degrees.
I think part of the difference may be due to the difference in the pitch. In my frame, Koufax has a fastball grip. In your clip, he is throwing a curveball (which hits the outside corner for a strike).
"Do you guys endorse and/or teach power V."
I'm not familiar with this term in the context of pitching.
Do you mean scap(ular) loading?
I'm not familiar with this term in the context of pitching.
Do you mean scap(ular) loading?
Coach Chris,
Going back to your great illustrations to find still-frame with power-V. Give me a minute.
RS
Going back to your great illustrations to find still-frame with power-V. Give me a minute.
RS
Was all the way back to page 3>wow
Okay, allow me to clarify what I mean by power V without confusing too many out there across our great land.
Power V is the relationship between the upper and lower body while rotation occurs in windup.
In this case, Nolan Ryan's full-windup:
Stillframes>6.1,7.1,7.2,7.3,8.1,9.2,10.1,11.2,11.3,13.3 and 13.3 demonstrate power V the best in Tim O'Leary's 25 page of Nolan Ryan analysis.
Just look at the frames I've listed above and you can see the Vs-LOL but seriously
That my associates/websters is the real power source.
The interrelated work of all those strong muscles working together in the< power V.
RS
Okay, allow me to clarify what I mean by power V without confusing too many out there across our great land.
Power V is the relationship between the upper and lower body while rotation occurs in windup.
In this case, Nolan Ryan's full-windup:
Stillframes>6.1,7.1,7.2,7.3,8.1,9.2,10.1,11.2,11.3,13.3 and 13.3 demonstrate power V the best in Tim O'Leary's 25 page of Nolan Ryan analysis.
Just look at the frames I've listed above and you can see the Vs-LOL but seriously
That my associates/websters is the real power source.
The interrelated work of all those strong muscles working together in the< power V.
RS
Did I type Tim O'Leary...Apologize Chris.
RS
RS
I've been called worse...
"Power V is the relationship between the upper and lower body while rotation occurs in windup."
I assume that you are talking about the V that is made by the stripe going up the side of Ryan's pants and most of his shirt.
If so, I'm not sure that that's something that I would key on.
In my opinion, the key is to keep the hips closed as long as possible. This will maximize the force that the torso will be able to exert on the shoulders.
I don't think how you do it is as important. Freddy Garcia swings his leg out in a similar way...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_FreddyGarcia.pdf
Steve Carlton does it somewhat differently...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_SteveCarlton.pdf
The V is still there, but the knee is bent rather than extended.
However, it accomplishes the same thing.
"Power V is the relationship between the upper and lower body while rotation occurs in windup."
I assume that you are talking about the V that is made by the stripe going up the side of Ryan's pants and most of his shirt.
If so, I'm not sure that that's something that I would key on.
In my opinion, the key is to keep the hips closed as long as possible. This will maximize the force that the torso will be able to exert on the shoulders.
I don't think how you do it is as important. Freddy Garcia swings his leg out in a similar way...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_FreddyGarcia.pdf
Steve Carlton does it somewhat differently...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_SteveCarlton.pdf
The V is still there, but the knee is bent rather than extended.
However, it accomplishes the same thing.
Yes Indeed
Carlton's best two frames I found on "your" great work is 7.4 and 8.1. Frames 3.1-3.4
and 11.1 also demonstrate power V very well indeed.
Gonna look at Garcia now.
RS
Carlton's best two frames I found on "your" great work is 7.4 and 8.1. Frames 3.1-3.4
and 11.1 also demonstrate power V very well indeed.
Gonna look at Garcia now.
RS
Wow! That was tell-tell in Garcia's mechanics.
Big time tell tell signs-LOL
Didn't have a very powerful power V in any frames even though he did get back to "slight" weak power V. Not enough V there to my liking....
Thanks Coach Chris. Enjoyed our conversing tonight. Getting about that time
Talk tomorrow.
Shep
Big time tell tell signs-LOL
Didn't have a very powerful power V in any frames even though he did get back to "slight" weak power V. Not enough V there to my liking....
Thanks Coach Chris. Enjoyed our conversing tonight. Getting about that time
Talk tomorrow.
Shep
Have you ever heard of your center?
"Have you ever heard of your center?"
Do you mean your center of mass (or gravity)?
If so, yes.
Why?
Do you mean your center of mass (or gravity)?
If so, yes.
Why?
Start exploring the center.
When you figure out how to throw from your center things will fall in place for you.
When you figure out how to throw from your center things will fall in place for you.
linear
The Shepster knows exactly what your talking about when refering to the center.
Took a long time to learn it, but I did finally start coming around. I too experienced how effortless and freely the point of release out front can feel and how your body can look totally in control, if rotation is done correctly. The ball just seems to explode out of hand upon release. This is because your not throwing with all upperbody but have combination of both lower and upper. The lower being the dominate catalyst that leads out first.
Shep's Humble Input
The Shepster knows exactly what your talking about when refering to the center.
Took a long time to learn it, but I did finally start coming around. I too experienced how effortless and freely the point of release out front can feel and how your body can look totally in control, if rotation is done correctly. The ball just seems to explode out of hand upon release. This is because your not throwing with all upperbody but have combination of both lower and upper. The lower being the dominate catalyst that leads out first.
Shep's Humble Input
The stronger that power V and center angle, the more the ball explodes out of hand upon release.
Linear??
Swing??
Linear??
Swing??
Okay guys, so I apologize for the other night...
You guys must be headed toward the diamonds.
Will finish later>
Shep
You guys must be headed toward the diamonds.
Will finish later>
Shep
"Start exploring the center."
Just to be clear, when you say this are you talking about the same "center" that boxers and people in the martial arts talk about? Do you have any links to articles that talk about this (they are kind of hard to find and I haven't found the right query string yet)?
If it's what I think you're talking about, then I do agree that it's a valuable concept. For one thing, it explains why my drives have topped out at 250. I'm too "arm"-y.
Just to be clear, when you say this are you talking about the same "center" that boxers and people in the martial arts talk about? Do you have any links to articles that talk about this (they are kind of hard to find and I haven't found the right query string yet)?
If it's what I think you're talking about, then I do agree that it's a valuable concept. For one thing, it explains why my drives have topped out at 250. I'm too "arm"-y.
Based on what I have read so far (Googling strings like "from your center martial arts" and "move from your center"), I wouldn't bring this up with PN.
Way too much talk about balance.
Way too much talk about balance.
Linear (and all),
Serious question here.
Again, assuming that we are talking about the same thing when it comes to the term "center", what do you think about using martial arts (e.g. Tae Kwon Do and Karate), boxing, golf, and even hitting to teach kids how to do things from the center? It seems that, when done right, the key to all of those actions is starting motion from the center. In the case of Tae Kwon Do, that often means starting with a hip flip.
Just so you can gloat, let me say that I asked this question of Dr. Marshall and received a very unsatisfactory non-answer. I think there can be more cross-transfer between skills than he does.
Serious question here.
Again, assuming that we are talking about the same thing when it comes to the term "center", what do you think about using martial arts (e.g. Tae Kwon Do and Karate), boxing, golf, and even hitting to teach kids how to do things from the center? It seems that, when done right, the key to all of those actions is starting motion from the center. In the case of Tae Kwon Do, that often means starting with a hip flip.
Just so you can gloat, let me say that I asked this question of Dr. Marshall and received a very unsatisfactory non-answer. I think there can be more cross-transfer between skills than he does.
I should mention that the reason that I'm interested in drills that don't involve baseball, but that might have some carry-over to pitching, is that my guys sometimes get tired of practicing.
I'm wondering if there are some things that I can have them work on when they are tired of baseball but that will still benefit them.
I'm wondering if there are some things that I can have them work on when they are tired of baseball but that will still benefit them.
Coach Chris,
FWIW, I’m a big believer in the martial arts as a training method. Years ago we had a Karate Instructor work with our entire team. He didn’t know anything about baseball and we knew nothing about Karate. He showed the coaching staff the many exercises and movements he could use and we picked out the stuff that directly worked similar to baseball movements and actions. Some here, would be glad to know, there are many ROTATIONAL type movements and other baseball movements involved in Karate.
Anyway, he worked with our team during the off season twice each week. The improvement in areas such as balance, flexability, focus, quickness, etc. were amazing. Perhaps the #1 most important thing, was that for the 3 years we did this, we never lost a pitcher due to arm injury and we never lost a player due to a non contact injury. This could have been somewhat lucky, but I was sold and would recommend Karate training to others.
One real neat thing he taught our players was how to do pushups laying flat on the ground with hands extended high above head using finger tips to pushup. When he first showed us this, we said it looks dangerous to the throwing arms. It also looked impossible to everyone who watched him do it. He assured us that it was all done through the stomach and mid body rather than the arms and fingers. Before long every player and most of our coaches could do it. (Not I) We would do these pushups in the outfield as we stretched, believe me when I say… the opponents did a double take and I think it even had some kind of psychological affect on them.
FWIW, I’m a big believer in the martial arts as a training method. Years ago we had a Karate Instructor work with our entire team. He didn’t know anything about baseball and we knew nothing about Karate. He showed the coaching staff the many exercises and movements he could use and we picked out the stuff that directly worked similar to baseball movements and actions. Some here, would be glad to know, there are many ROTATIONAL type movements and other baseball movements involved in Karate.
Anyway, he worked with our team during the off season twice each week. The improvement in areas such as balance, flexability, focus, quickness, etc. were amazing. Perhaps the #1 most important thing, was that for the 3 years we did this, we never lost a pitcher due to arm injury and we never lost a player due to a non contact injury. This could have been somewhat lucky, but I was sold and would recommend Karate training to others.
One real neat thing he taught our players was how to do pushups laying flat on the ground with hands extended high above head using finger tips to pushup. When he first showed us this, we said it looks dangerous to the throwing arms. It also looked impossible to everyone who watched him do it. He assured us that it was all done through the stomach and mid body rather than the arms and fingers. Before long every player and most of our coaches could do it. (Not I) We would do these pushups in the outfield as we stretched, believe me when I say… the opponents did a double take and I think it even had some kind of psychological affect on them.
Thanks PG for excellent post which confirms many others opinions as well!
The rotational confirmation and mid-section endorsement had to make Linear's day
The training of martial arts movements in combination with stretching and plyometrics are all components of advanced athletes in their training programs.
Good to see pro analysis,
Shep
The rotational confirmation and mid-section endorsement had to make Linear's day
The training of martial arts movements in combination with stretching and plyometrics are all components of advanced athletes in their training programs.
Good to see pro analysis,
Shep
I didn't need confirmation.
But would someone tell swingbuster it is impossible for young guys to properly load their center from which they can PROPERLY rotate, while they are army in their swings.
Barry can do it. Gary can do it. 99 out of 100 high school and below will fail at it.
He claims success at it. All he has done is give them a band aid. He's thrown them a life raft........from which they will sink when they get older............Mine are learning to swim and will survive the full length of their genetic potential.
Teach the center. Learn it well. Then add on. In that order.
Teach the add on first and they'll never rotate properly.
But would someone tell swingbuster it is impossible for young guys to properly load their center from which they can PROPERLY rotate, while they are army in their swings.
Barry can do it. Gary can do it. 99 out of 100 high school and below will fail at it.
He claims success at it. All he has done is give them a band aid. He's thrown them a life raft........from which they will sink when they get older............Mine are learning to swim and will survive the full length of their genetic potential.
Teach the center. Learn it well. Then add on. In that order.
Teach the add on first and they'll never rotate properly.
PG,
It is very interesting that you mention your use of elements of Karate in your program.
I trained and competed for many years - Shotokan Karate. Without a doubt - it got me in the best shape (mentally and physically) of my life - and helped me greatly in football, boxing and baseball.
Just two thoughts on this:
1) Word of caution to any aspiring baseball players. In most cases Karate instruction/competition is comprised of two primary elements - Kata (Form) and Kumite (Fighting).
If you train/compete in Karate - be careful about the Kumite. Your fingers take a beating - and although broken fingers wont affect you much in football - in baseball it can affect you alot.
2) Nowadays - given that we have so many younger players training year round - I think it would be very demanding and difficult to participate fully in any Karate program if you are also doing your schoolwork and playing/training baseball all the time.
Interesting subject IMO - that I havent seen much of on the HSBBWEB in the past.
It is very interesting that you mention your use of elements of Karate in your program.
I trained and competed for many years - Shotokan Karate. Without a doubt - it got me in the best shape (mentally and physically) of my life - and helped me greatly in football, boxing and baseball.
Just two thoughts on this:
1) Word of caution to any aspiring baseball players. In most cases Karate instruction/competition is comprised of two primary elements - Kata (Form) and Kumite (Fighting).
If you train/compete in Karate - be careful about the Kumite. Your fingers take a beating - and although broken fingers wont affect you much in football - in baseball it can affect you alot.
2) Nowadays - given that we have so many younger players training year round - I think it would be very demanding and difficult to participate fully in any Karate program if you are also doing your schoolwork and playing/training baseball all the time.
Interesting subject IMO - that I havent seen much of on the HSBBWEB in the past.
