Would also like to agree with ITS on earlier post about the martial arts. Baseball players don't need to necessarily break boards and bricks but need to focus on movement or stretching without poundage to hands which can hinder prospects growth and development.
Lords of London insure some athletes hands, if that tells you anything.
Sincerely,
Shep
Would advise personal trainer if you are fortunate enough to afford it...nighty.
Sheppy
Sheppy
I've been seeing a lot of you gies saying not to let your elbow above shoulder level and not to have the ball face cener field when in the power position. That is what I have been taught be every coach i've had since I started pitching. What are the risks if I continue to pitch with those mechanics?
quote:I've been seeing a lot of you gies saying not to let your elbow above shoulder level and not to have the ball face cener field when in the power position. That is what I have been taught be every coach i've had since I started pitching. What are the risks if I continue to pitch with those mechanics?
Elbow above shoulder = Rotator cuff problems.
Showing Ball to CF = UCL problems.
But don't you lose power if your elbow is below your shoulder? That would lead me to believe that ideal positon for your elbow in the power position is shoulder level. Correct me if I'm wrong.
It depends at what moment you are talking about.
In general, I think the elbows should be at the levels of the shoulders. Not above or below.
However, what's interesting is that if you look at pictures of Nolan Ryan (e.g. frame 27.1) you will see that his elbows drop below his shoulders...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_NolanRyan.pdf
His elbows then come back up to the level of his shoulders as his shoulders start to turn.
In general, I think the elbows should be at the levels of the shoulders. Not above or below.
However, what's interesting is that if you look at pictures of Nolan Ryan (e.g. frame 27.1) you will see that his elbows drop below his shoulders...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_NolanRyan.pdf
His elbows then come back up to the level of his shoulders as his shoulders start to turn.
The photo you referenced (of Greg Maddux) does NOT show him with his elbow above his shoulders.
His shoulders are tilted, which puts his elbow at the level of his shoulders.
His shoulders are tilted, which puts his elbow at the level of his shoulders.
If you want to see what I mean when I talk about having the elbow above the shoulder, see frame 16.1 (among many) of my breakdown of Bobby Madritsch's motion...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_BobbyMadritsch.pdf
The same thing is true for frame 6.1 (among many) of Don Drysdale...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_DonDrysdale.pdf
http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_BobbyMadritsch.pdf
The same thing is true for frame 6.1 (among many) of Don Drysdale...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_DonDrysdale.pdf
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Your elbows should be at atleast a 90% angle from the shoulder. My son's doctor says baseball is a high elbow sport. He evaluated pitchers for MLB teams. He showed us that even dropping the front elbow puts stress on the opposite shoulder.
Your elbows should be at atleast a 90% angle from the shoulder. My son's doctor says baseball is a high elbow sport. He evaluated pitchers for MLB teams. He showed us that even dropping the front elbow puts stress on the opposite shoulder.
quote:Your elbows should be at atleast a 90% angle from the shoulder. My son's doctor says baseball is a high elbow sport. He evaluated pitchers for MLB teams. He showed us that even dropping the front elbow puts stress on the opposite shoulder.
They should generally be 90 degrees. No more, no less.
Less than 90 degrees can be mechanically inefficient by shortening the lever arm. More than 90 degrees puts strain on the rotator cuff.
I'd love to know more about his theory as to why dropping the front elbow causes problems with the opposite shoulder. I'm skeptical, but still interested.
I think the confusion here is we are taking elbow and your pictures show shoulders in the last 2 examples wrap too far off plane. You look at Nolan and his elbows are up and his shoulders are on plane. You have to be carefull that you do npt lift your shoulders too high and wrap them too far back. I call it looking like a scarecrow or goal posts. Our drill uses a broom stick to get a pitcher used to the feeling of keeping the elbows up.
If you drop the so called sight elbow there is stress generated across the shoulder and can cause added stress on the thowing shoulder and some pain. It was demonstrated to us with diagrams of the body in the doctors office.
My son was dropping his front elbow in LOng Toss and he stopped and the pain stopped.
If you drop the so called sight elbow there is stress generated across the shoulder and can cause added stress on the thowing shoulder and some pain. It was demonstrated to us with diagrams of the body in the doctors office.
My son was dropping his front elbow in LOng Toss and he stopped and the pain stopped.
quote:Originally posted by Coach Chris:
The photo you referenced (of Greg Maddux) does NOT show him with his elbow above his shoulders.
His shoulders are tilted, which puts his elbow at the level of his shoulders.
You've got to be kidding. Look at that picture again.
quote:Nonsense, his right elbow is above his right shoulder........period.The opposite shoulder is down a little because of the raising of the right elbow to head high.
What you are describing isn't anatomically possible. The shoulders are linked bony structures. You can't raise one without lowering (tilting) the other.
quote:The tattoo man's shoulders are very much tilted.
No they're not (at least not much).
Notice that the Seattle logo on the front of his jersey is level. If his shoulders were tilted, the logo on his jersey would be tilted.
quote:You've got to be kidding. Look at that picture again.
Now I understand the root of out disagreements...
His shoulders are clearly tilted about 30 degree off of the horizontal. If you draw a line through the socket of one shoulder through the socket of the other shoulder, you will end up with a line that passes through (but possibly slightly below) his pitching arm side elbow.
His glove-side elbow is significantly below this line.
quote:Did you ever check to see how many operations that tattoo has had?
As have others who do this, Madritsch has had multiple surgeries to deal with problems with both his rotator cuff and labrum.
I have seen enough guys who have this flaw and have needed shoulder surgery (rotator cuff and/or labrum) that I have come to believe that it's not a coincidence.
If you want other examples of Madritsch taking his elbow above his shoulder, see frames 11.1, 11.2, 12.1, 12.2, 12.3, and 19.1.
Wonder if th MLB Umpiring Association would allow the tatoos if they were the color of baseball coming out of pitcher's hand???
Bet not. Those arm markings can be awefully distracting to a hitter!!!
Shep
Bet not. Those arm markings can be awefully distracting to a hitter!!!
Shep
quote:If you tell me that the elbow is below the shoulders, I will have the guys in the white coats come and strap you down.
Obviously, the pitching arm side elbow in the first picture of Maddux is higher off the ground than is the pitching arm side shoulder.
However, since his shoulders are tilted something like 45 degrees, his pitching arm side elbow is at the level of a line drawn through the sockets of the shoulders. This enables him to achieve a near-vertical forearm at the release point while protecting his shoulder.
This is a subtle but critical difference when it comes to injury prevention.
The clip of Jim Palmer shows that he did something slightly different. In frame 3:03 of 3:27, you can see that Palmer's pitching arm side elbow is above the level of his shoulders. I would argue that this is why Palmer had recurrent shoulder problems during his career (and Maddux did not).
Coach Chris-
Post a single picture from bbscout's video clip illustrating exactly what you mean by:
....or tell us the exact frame, the clip is only 39 frames in length if you play only non repeating frames.
Post a single picture from bbscout's video clip illustrating exactly what you mean by:
quote:you can see that Palmer's pitching arm side elbow is above the level of his shoulders.
....or tell us the exact frame, the clip is only 39 frames in length if you play only non repeating frames.
quote:Chris, Are you going to say that Palmer's delivery is the reason he "only pitched 19 years" in the big leagues?
No. What I am saying is that what he is doing in this clip likely contributed to the shoulder problems he experienced in 1967 and 1968 and again at the end of his career...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Palmer
But for these injuries, he could have been even better.
quote:....or tell us the exact frame, the clip is only 39 frames in length if you play only non repeating frames.
I am talking about the position of his elbow (relative to the plane of his shoulders) in frames 31 and 32.
Not every pitcher does this.
Just the good ones.
Is this the elbow being higher than the shoulder you're referring to?
It's very hard to interpret the height of the elbow with reference to the shoulders when using one dimensional photo's of a skewed body...you need at least two views of the same throw to be more accurate. The amount of backward bend, bowing, twisting and tilting define the shoulder plane orientation. You would need a camera placed directly on the end of the axis that passes through the shoulders, that way you would know more accurately whether the upper arm (including the elbow) is or is not in the shoulder plane.
This top photo is not conclusive.
This next photo indicates to me that the elbow is slightly lower than the shoulders
This photo indicates to me the elbow is in line with the shoulders
quote:Is this the elbow being higher than the shoulder you're referring to?
Yes. This and the previous frame show the elbow above the line of the shoulders.
Admittedly, it just there for a moment (e.g. 2 frames), but the research I have done indicates that this may be enough to cause problems.
Also, and contrary to what Linear says, all of the greats do not do this.
This photo is subject to too much "guessing" as to where the elbow is positioned. I don’t see what you see..but that’s okay.
quote:This photo is subject to too much "guessing" as to where the elbow is positioned. I don’t see what you see..but that’s okay.
What I see in that photo is that his pitching arm side elbow is roughly 6 inches above the level of his shoulders (about the level of his ears).
There are several times your elbow is below the 90 degree level during the pitching motion.
I also noticed the one shot seemed off balance but it is hard to tell from the photo.
I also noticed the one shot seemed off balance but it is hard to tell from the photo.
Here is a link to the video on my web site...
- Marshall Wind-Up Set Position
When viewing this, keep in mind several things...
1. I start off from a position that Dr. Mike Marshall calls the Wind-Up Set position.
2. The things to pay attention to are the long arm swing and how early I turn over my pitching arm and palm. Also note how I finish square and ready to field the ball.
3. My arm action as I accelerate isn't as Dr. Marshall would like it. I'll post a revised clip as soon as I get the chance.
4. This was taken on a cold, wet day on January 1, so the ground was wet and the footing sucked. I was also tight, so my differential between my hips and shoulders sucks.
- Marshall Wind-Up Set Position
When viewing this, keep in mind several things...
1. I start off from a position that Dr. Mike Marshall calls the Wind-Up Set position.
2. The things to pay attention to are the long arm swing and how early I turn over my pitching arm and palm. Also note how I finish square and ready to field the ball.
3. My arm action as I accelerate isn't as Dr. Marshall would like it. I'll post a revised clip as soon as I get the chance.
4. This was taken on a cold, wet day on January 1, so the ground was wet and the footing sucked. I was also tight, so my differential between my hips and shoulders sucks.
Obviously you cant be serious?
I have seen a serious pitching instructor here in San Diego and I must tell everyone out there he was a blessing to me and my family.
I'd recommend expanding your mind and your can learn a thing or too from all the Guru's. Please do not set your sight on just one specific person or GURU. You can learn many things from all of them.
Linear , I believe I am with you on this one.
I have seen a serious pitching instructor here in San Diego and I must tell everyone out there he was a blessing to me and my family.
I'd recommend expanding your mind and your can learn a thing or too from all the Guru's. Please do not set your sight on just one specific person or GURU. You can learn many things from all of them.
Linear , I believe I am with you on this one.
Does anyone else find the repeated and constant "DR." usage when referring to Marshall a little annoying... especially repeated in the the same post. I realize the man has a Ph.D but enough already.
More than once I've seen video of Marshalls so called "throwing mechanics", and each time it makes me cringe.
Sorry but that looks nothing like the way to optimally throw the ball.
Even if it is a drill.
Sorry but that looks nothing like the way to optimally throw the ball.
Even if it is a drill.
Chris,
I am confused by your video. Has Mike Marshall viewed it? If so, does he like having his name attached to that video?
Does he really want the ball taken out of the glove that early. What is the purpose of the Wind-up/set position.
You actually don't finish square, in fact, your off balance and jump into fielding position in the video. Of course, this probably has more to do with athleticism (or lack there of) rather than technique.
It does seem kind of odd that the person in that video is saying Jim Palmer would have done even better with their mechanics.
Guess you never claimed you could throw a baseball.
I'm not necessarily saying you don't know what your talking about, but I would suggest a better example on video.
I am confused by your video. Has Mike Marshall viewed it? If so, does he like having his name attached to that video?
Does he really want the ball taken out of the glove that early. What is the purpose of the Wind-up/set position.
You actually don't finish square, in fact, your off balance and jump into fielding position in the video. Of course, this probably has more to do with athleticism (or lack there of) rather than technique.
It does seem kind of odd that the person in that video is saying Jim Palmer would have done even better with their mechanics.
Guess you never claimed you could throw a baseball.
I'm not necessarily saying you don't know what your talking about, but I would suggest a better example on video.
After viewing Chris's video, I dunno, 20-25 times (I can't help it...it's like watching a train wreck), I am sure all MLB pitching coaches are taking notes so they can retrain all their pitchers once spring training begins.
Seriously, CoachChris, pay the fee to take your 6 & 10 year-olds to a known pitching instructor. The arm you save, may be your son's.
Seriously, CoachChris, pay the fee to take your 6 & 10 year-olds to a known pitching instructor. The arm you save, may be your son's.
Coach chris I respect anyone who takes the time to coach kids and I am not trying to be mean.
If that video represents your idea of proper pitching mechanics you are misrepresenting yourself. Ie taking money under false pretenses.
I don't even know where to begin. From beginning to end it bares no resemblence to pitching.
NO set position and I believe what you show is a balk. No leg lift, no balance point no anything.
That is a playing catch with your daughter motion. No actually my daughter would hurt you.
Sir get someone to show you how. You argue with a scout and several people on here that know what they are talking about from years of experience. STOP and listen to expert advise.
I had a chat last week wuth a guy from South Africa whos's son is a 6'5" RHP. He has been her e for years and would listen to no one. He knew it all based on Cricket. Trying to compare a cricket bowlers arm action to a BB pitcher. He even complain to a local organization about his current coach making his son do long toss etc. He knew what was best. It was so rediculous you couldn't talk to him. You are not quite that bad but right up there.
Do youself a favour and learn before you teach. You owe it to your students.
If that video represents your idea of proper pitching mechanics you are misrepresenting yourself. Ie taking money under false pretenses.
I don't even know where to begin. From beginning to end it bares no resemblence to pitching.
NO set position and I believe what you show is a balk. No leg lift, no balance point no anything.
That is a playing catch with your daughter motion. No actually my daughter would hurt you.
Sir get someone to show you how. You argue with a scout and several people on here that know what they are talking about from years of experience. STOP and listen to expert advise.
I had a chat last week wuth a guy from South Africa whos's son is a 6'5" RHP. He has been her e for years and would listen to no one. He knew it all based on Cricket. Trying to compare a cricket bowlers arm action to a BB pitcher. He even complain to a local organization about his current coach making his son do long toss etc. He knew what was best. It was so rediculous you couldn't talk to him. You are not quite that bad but right up there.
Do youself a favour and learn before you teach. You owe it to your students.
The jump at the end of Coach Chris's video reminded me of Ron Guidry and the hop he had to regain his balance after delivering the ball. That's where the similiarity ends, however.
What's next, a jump shot in the driveway?
I went back and looked at the video a few more times. That's not pitching. You better be saying "Do as Marshall says and not as I do" anytime you demonstrate anything.
What's next, a jump shot in the driveway?
I went back and looked at the video a few more times. That's not pitching. You better be saying "Do as Marshall says and not as I do" anytime you demonstrate anything.
All Aboard!!!
How similiar are proper lower body mechanics of a pitcher and hitter, if indeed similiar at all ???
Lets say, for a very advanced player?
Shep
How similiar are proper lower body mechanics of a pitcher and hitter, if indeed similiar at all ???
Lets say, for a very advanced player?
Shep
BB, your my hero. Me too, Chris gets at least an 8 if not a 10.
Will add that Chris has some outstanding input here
Shep
Will add that Chris has some outstanding input here
Shep
No I agree with BBS. He loses 2 points for form the 8 points are for shear moxy.
I don't think anyone could pay me enough money to do a pitching demo at my age.
I don't think anyone could pay me enough money to do a pitching demo at my age.
You guys are bad. Even I'm feeling guilty for being too hard on the guy.
What I can't believe is he hasn't removed the video yet.
But, I see he's back for more.
What I can't believe is he hasn't removed the video yet.
But, I see he's back for more.
I will respond to all of these comments about the video, but I'm tired of drilling down 10 pages so I started a separate thread to manage the discussion...
- - Marshall Pitching Motion Discussion
- - Marshall Pitching Motion Discussion
