Questions from a parent of a young player

quote:

Originally posted by always_late:
There has been talk on here about "icing" your arm after pitching. Should a young pitcher do that? When should he start or should it only be done after a long time on the mound.

I would never have a young kid ice.

It's debatable whether even major leaguers should ice. Tim Lincecum doesn't.

quote:

Originally posted by always_late:
What is too much pitching for 9/10 year olds? I understand that it can vary player to player, but what limits should there be.

I don't let my 9s and 10s throw more than 30 or 40 pitches per week.

quote:

Originally posted by always_late:
Should a player pitch and catch the same game/day, even if they only do one inning of each?

At 9U/10U, yes.

At the higher levels, no.

quote:

Originally posted by always_late:
Also, would we be considered the PITA parents if we use a pitch counter while on the bleachers so we can keep track of how much he's throwing in a tournament?

Maybe, but you should still do it because it's smart. You care more about your son's health than anyone.

quote:

Originally posted by John YaYa:

quote:

Originally posted by always_late:
Should a player pitch and catch the same game/day, even if they only do one inning of each?

At 9U/10U, yes.

At the higher levels, no.

Thanks!!


Now what if he's at the 40ish pitch area after say 2 innings and the coaches have him go in to catch a couple innings? Or he caught the majority of a morning game, then goes in to pitch later that same day? He does alot of throwing in the yard with us, so his arm has always been "in shape" I guess you call it. (Not long toss, just playing catch.)

Always -late I suggest you be on time from now on.

I see you are picking up bits and pieces and you know what they say about a little knowledge.
Educate yourself. Get some good reading material at the library etc and get good quality info. It is out there and I know because I did it myself as have many others.
It really bothers me to hear people who want to interfere with coaches and have no knowledge.

quote:

It really bothers me to hear people who want to interfere with coaches and have no knowledge.

Are you implying that I'm trying to interfere with the coaches because I am inquiring about what is good and what is not for a beginner pitcher? So if the coaches start over-using my son I would be interfering with them if I say anything?

And yes, I have no knowledge. We are starting out with this, and that is why I am asking. I can read all the books available, and I have started to do so, but I just wanted some first-hand experience.

Sorry if I took your statement wrong.

bbhead, sounds like that is what she is doing here.

always-late, I don't have answers to all your questions, but I will say that maybe you should have a talk with your son's coach before the season starts and let him know what your concerns are in terms of pitch count and rest. I will say that it has been found that pitching after you are fatigued is more of a concern than pitch count. Pitch counts are a good way to start and can certainly be a good guide. I would say at that age, 40 pitches or so would be a good start for a guideline. However, if your son looks like he is laboring at 20 pitches, he may need to come out. If however, he still looks strong and his mechanics are good at 40, he may be able to go more. It all depends on the kid.

Going from pitcher, assuming he goes till his mechanics suffer and is obviously tired, to catcher would probably not be the best thing. Think about it. If he is exausted after pitching, sweating and hot, then he is going to put on full catchers gear and stand up and down for the rest of the game? Sounds like a recepie for disaster. Common sense needs to be used.

My son is a pitcher and short stop. I can think of several games where he pitched to a high pitch count and needed to be taken out due to being tired. He played short after that and was certainly not at his best - mentally and physically. I can't imagine what it would be like to go directly to catcher.

Anyway, these are all the things you should talk with the coach about. Not in a demanding way, but just to get a feel for where he stands on these things. As a coach, we used to have a coach keep the pitch count of the kids pitching. Some would come out after 40 pitches, some after 80 pitches (as 14 yr.olds). It was obvious when they were tired. When we were being recruited for a 15u team this past fall, the coach and I had long talks about his philosophy on pitchers and pitch counts and rest between starts, etc. I wound up being very comfortable with his position with these issues and will be playing with him this summer.

Good luck to you and your son.

You're asking good questions! Icing is a very common practice from ages of about 10-12 till ----. All the trainers on teams my son played for (pre-HS, HS, college, pros) used ice liberally and religiously. Like your son my son was a pitcher and a catcher beginning in pre-high school and continued to catch and pitch until he quit pitching as a junior in college. It's not a "recipe" for disaster as bballman suggest but it does create an additional opportunity for overuse. Most people (me included) don't like parents interfering with coaches but protecting your son from overuse and injury knows no guidelines. I monitored my son's pitches in high school and established with his coach his pitch counts and innings caught as the combination of both can lead to overuse if the arm if not monitored.
If your son starts experiencing any pain you will need to address that immediately. Best of luck,
Fungo

Always_late,

The best thing you could possibly do for you son is visit Dr.Mike Marshall’s web site at drmikemarshall.com.
He is an expert at child growth, motor skill development, Exercise physiology, Kinesiology and applied anatomy. Even if you do not pitch with his full late rotational model you’re son will have the best chance to come out of his competitive pitching performances and general throwing completely healthy!!!
The information on adolescent human growth should be paramount in your thinking and carried over to his youth athletic timeline.

quote:

Originally posted by always_late:
Now what if he's at the 40ish pitch area after say 2 innings and the coaches have him go in to catch a couple innings? Or he caught the majority of a morning game, then goes in to pitch later that same day? He does alot of throwing in the yard with us, so his arm has always been "in shape" I guess you call it. (Not long toss, just playing catch.)

If I was the coach, I wouldn't do it.

If I was the parent, I'd be uncomfortable.

Also, due to the issue of open growth plates, it doesn't matter how in shape a kid's arm is. The only way to manage overuse problems is to not pitch too much in games.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
It really bothers me to hear people who want to interfere with coaches and have no knowledge.

What really bothers me is coaches who coach without any knowledge of adolescent physiology (e.g growth plates and the risk of avulsion fractures due to overuse).

Many people think kids are just small adults, and it just ain't so.

quote:

Originally posted by always_late:
Are you implying that I'm trying to interfere with the coaches because I am inquiring about what is good and what is not for a beginner pitcher? So if the coaches start over-using my son I would be interfering with them if I say anything?

You would be interfering, as you darn well should.

You're his parent.

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
I will say that it has been found that pitching after you are fatigued is more of a concern than pitch count.

Hogwash.

ASMI's latest research points to overuse as the primary variable when it comes to injury rates.

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
It all depends on the kid.

Not really.

Kids are kids and growth plates are growth plates.

That is especially true of 9Us.

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:
The best thing you could possibly do for you son is visit Dr.Mike Marshall’s web site at drmikemarshall.com.
He is an expert at child growth, motor skill development, Exercise physiology, Kinesiology and applied anatomy. Even if you do not pitch with his full late rotational model you’re son will have the best chance to come out of his competitive pitching performances and general throwing completely healthy!!!
The information on adolescent human growth should be paramount in your thinking and carried over to his youth athletic timeline.

While Marshall's understanding of root cause of the problem is excellent, his ideas about mechanics are deeply flawed.

People should just copy Greg Maddux and other durable pitchers with long careers (and clean mechanics).

YaYa, pitching after fatigued is considered overuse. As well as not getting enough rest between pitching outings. My point was that a set pitch count is not necessarily the answer. It is pitching after fatigue sets in and mechanics suffer - that is overuse along with improper rest between outings. I have discussed it with the people at ASMI.

Kids might be kids, but all kids are different. No way you can tell me that the same formula for arm health can be applied to all kids. Part of that is due to preparation, mechanics, body make up and a number of other factors. I have seen kids with growth plate issues that have pitched WAY less than kids who have never had growth plate issues. It does depend on the kid.

always-late, my son has rarely iced. Maybe 2-3 times over the last 6 years. He has never had arm issues. I have seen documentation for and against both sides. My feeling is that if there is injury - ice. If there is just soreness or if he feels no discomfort - you don't really need to. That is just my opinion - take it or leave it.

YAYA you stand a big chance that coaches at that level don't have a clue about pitching. I have no problem with a knowledgeable parent talking to a coach and setting some guidelines. I do have a problem with every yahoo with a 9yo pitcher interfering with the coach. Educate yourself by reading and talking to professional coaches. Even ASMI hasn't figured out what is universally too many pitches for a given young pitchers but they do have a general guideline.
Soft tossers are less likely to cause an injury than hard throwers and more able to throw more innings.
Teach your son to keep his elbows high (shoulder height) and to practice good alignment. Develop a nice smooth finish to his throw and don't lock the elbow trying to crank out that last once of velocity. Develop a nice smooth deceleration stage with arm slightly bent. Finish squared up in an athletic stance ready to field come backers.
Once you know a bit about what you are talking about then you can express your views based on ASMI's general pitch limits.

John YaYa ,

quote:

“ASMI's latest research points to overuse as the primary variable when it comes to injury rates.”

ASMI’s research is bogus, they do not study what causes injuries, they look at the injurious traditional motion and assign pitch count recommendations to youth organizations that still produce a multitude of injuries. Anecdotal surveys of past professional players and coaches is not science and never will be. They will no doubt be changing their flawed recommendations in the future!

You have it backwards; Injury is caused by improper mechanical stress and is cumulative and Instantaneous.

quote:

"While Marshall's understanding of root cause of the problem is excellent, his ideas about mechanics are deeply flawed.

Again, this is at best a guess and you with out testing and use have no way of ascertaining the truth of the matter. You state he has the cause correct then dispute the fixes, this does not make any sence!

I have been teaching his mechanics well over a decade with 100’s of pitchers and everything he has said is true.

Icing is just a way of reducing swelling caused by micro tears after pitching. It should be used after a tough outing generally 4+ innings. Nothing magical about it. Helps shorten the recovery time. You should ice fora few minutes and then take they ice off. Repeat it a few times and do not allow the arm to get too cold. Your arm won't fall off if you do or don't ice.

Yardbird I am not a big fan of Marshall's mechanics as you know. It is one thing to be taught an innocuous way of throwing but it is another thing to teach a way that is also competitive.
Pitching is a risky venture. If you are so worried about arm injury you shouldn't step on the mound.

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:
ASMI’s research is bogus, they do not study what causes injuries, they look at the injurious traditional motion and assign pitch count recommendations to youth organizations that still produce a multitude of injuries. Anecdotal surveys of past professional players and coaches is not science and never will be. They will no doubt be changing their flawed recommendations in the future!

While I'm not thrilled with some aspects of ASMI's approach, at least they have run the numbers and looked for the correlations.

quote:

Originally posted by Yardbird:
I have been teaching his mechanics well over a decade with 100’s of pitchers and everything he has said is true.

How many of your guys are pitching at the ML level with pure Marshall mechanics?

Always late,
You have come asking some good questions but as you can see you will get a variety of opinions.

When my son was your age he did not play another position the day he pitched. That's just how his coach did it, as at that age it's about everyone trying to get into the game and everyone having a turn. My son was a good hitter so he would hit only after pitching. Days he didn't pitch he played other positions, which his favorite being third.

He also grew up on icing, and for a short period of time he didn't ice, he developed some issues, now he ices always after he pitches in games and has been doing so for 14-15 years. His college pitching coach told me once that it's more of a preference that usually goes back to a comfort zone. Do not compare your son with that of a major league pitcher (as example given here).

I suggest you follow Fungo's advice.Monitor your son's pitch count and discuss with your coach how you feel, you have a right to do so and it is not intefering, but rather out of concern.

Ice is for injuries

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Ice is for injuries

I agree.

Ice is not needed to deal with normal soreness.

In fact, most younger kids (e.g. 9Us) aren't even sore after they pitch.

If they are, they probably either threw too much or are doing something wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
YAYA you stand a big chance that coaches at that level don't have a clue about pitching. I have no problem with a knowledgeable parent talking to a coach and setting some guidelines. I do have a problem with every yahoo with a 9yo pitcher interfering with the coach. Educate yourself by reading and talking to professional coaches. Even ASMI hasn't figured out what is universally too many pitches for a given young pitchers but they do have a general guideline.
=======================================

Once you know a bit about what you are talking about then you can express your views based on ASMI's general pitch limits.

Bobblehead doll,
I don't know what your issue is with me just wanting to find out what is normal/too much for a young pitcher. I thought that this site is to ask questions and learn, yes mainly on a higher level, but younger as well. Obviously I struck some nerve with you. According to you, only "knowledgable parents" have the right to look out for their son. I'm just a Yahoo with a 9 y/o. How do you think those "knowledgable parents" learned? They were just Yahoos asking questions once also. Not once did I say I would interrupt the coach, go against what he does, or give my opinion to him. I am asking these questions so that I do know what could be too much. Alot of what I have read is that it seems like more and more younger players are having arm issues. Should I just sit back and wait? I also know that while most coaches are very good with doing what is right, there are some who are not. A 10U coach in our area has kids throwing curveballs. Even thought I'm just a yahoo, I do know that is too young. So if that were my son's coach, I guess I would have no right saying anything about that until I get more knowledgeable.


TPM,

My son's team doesn't have enough players for him to sit out the game after pitching. Probably just an inning or two would be tops.

Thanks for the help. I'll definately be doing some more reading on this. He's having fun, and is really enjoying playing.

Always Late,
I don't think BBHD comments were directed to you, these guys have a battle going on, you got caught in the middle.

BobbleheadDoll,

quote:

“Yardbird I am not a big fan of Marshall's mechanics as you know.”

Why would that be?

quote:

“It is one thing to be taught an innocuous way of throwing but it is another thing to teach a way that is also competitive.”

You are correct sir. Are you insinuating there has not been success at all levels using these tenets.?

quote:

“Pitching is a risky venture.”

Traditional pitching is a risky venture should be written here!!!

quote:

“If you are so worried about arm injury “

It’s not just the arm; failures in the traditional kinetic chain are not limited.

quote:

“you shouldn't step on the mound.”

Just hand them the BALL!!!

John YaYa,

quote:

“How many of your guys are pitching at the ML level with pure Marshall mechanics?”

A better question would have been, when is an 80 to 100% full late rotational Marshall
Pitcher going to be given the ball at any level?

Chris, in the future when you ask inane questions about Marshall, please do it in the Marshall thread so as to not muddy up this most valuable information about youth pitchers that is trying to be cordially passed on?

TPM,

quote:

“these guys have a battle going on, you got caught in the middle.”

The battle is one sided, I’m just passing positive information along about mechanics that are facts. Some people have some kind of built up hatred for Marshall’s personality that they have to vent towards me, I am sorry that this is the way they deal with it, I am going to have to keep jumping through their hoops as best I can.

Always Late - As I'm sure you can see, there are a lot of varying opinions on this issue. Educate yourself as much as possible and then use common sense. Your son has many years of baseball ahead of him, I'm sure he doesn't want to be remembered as the greatest 10 and under pitcher that never made it to high school ball!

One other thing I would recommend. Regardless of what philosophy you choose to adopt concerning the amount of pitching. Start talking to your son right now about keeping his coach and especially YOU informed about how his arm, elbow and shoulder feel. Monitor this with him immediately after each game he pitches and also the day after. Make sure he knows it's OK to tell you exactly how he feels. It may sound overkill for a younger player but it's a good idea to build up that line of communication now. You would be amazed at the number of players that by the time they reach high school, will not let anyone know they are having arm trouble until it's become a big problem for them.

Good Luck with your research!

quote:

Start talking to your son right now about keeping his coach and especially YOU informed about how his arm, elbow and shoulder feel. Monitor this with him immediately after each game he pitches and also the day after. Make sure he knows it's OK to tell you exactly how he feels. It may sound overkill for a younger player but it's a good idea to build up that line of communication now. You would be amazed at the number of players that by the time they reach high school, will not let anyone know they are having arm trouble until it's become a big problem for them.

I really wish you Marshall guys would stick to the issue and quit starting a big sidetracked debate on nearly every issue involving pitching. This thread was initially about pitch counts, rest, playing multiple positions for a young pitcher. Before you know it, there are pages and pages on why Marshall and his tenets are the best and only way to pitch. It gets a little old after a while.

Easy bballman you don't want to get too close or they may trick you into drinking the kool aid.

Always Late

As far as icing goes try it with and without. Personally my son does not like icing after a game, just his personal preference.

I agree 100% with making sure that you speak with your son about not being afraid to let the coach know if his arm was sore or tired when pitching. I know when I coached at that level the first thing I'd ask the pitcher after each inning was how did his arm feel. Kids should be taught early that it is ok to tell the coach that you arm is sore or tired. In our league it was rare for a pitcher to pitch more then 2-3 innings a game till the end of the season. Most leagues only allow for 6 innings a week anyhow, and specify an amount of rest if pitching more then 2 innings in a given day. If a kid is getting shelled or walking a ton of kids (high pitch count) he won't last long in a game usually. I don't think you need to approach the coach unless you see a pattern of overuse or your son tells you his arm is hurting.

IMO you are ok in approaching the coach at the beginning of the season and asking him not to have your son catch on the same day that he is going to pitch more then 2 innings.

I'll keep my antenae up. Tough to get sucked in when I don't understand half of what they are talking about. I think they invented their own language. Sounds official. Thanks for the heads up coach.

Always my remarks are about every yahoo who thinks they know what they are talking about. I don't know you but you do need to get educated and this site is not always the best place to do it.
If you make statements that are clearly aimed at interfering with a coach you should know what you are talking about.
Most coaches are volunteers and appreciate intelligent discussions but do not appreaciate parents who interfere. Most coaches will Set parameters for allowing parents to talk to them. Most have preseason talks with parents and address their concerns. Most as Redsox said ask their pitchers how their arm feels before every new inning.
The only nerve you have struck is the disdain I have developed watching ignorant parents make fools of themselves.
again you should educate yourself and maybe save yourself some embarrassment.
People who dramatize this taking care of your son so he can pitch another day have choices and they should educate themselves instead of listening to old ***** tales.
Your job is to learn about pitching and keep in mind that when you drop your son off at a game , he belongs to the coach. If you know what you are talking about and don't like what the coach is doing be prepared to talk to him and leave the team if you can't get a meeting of minds. Once you have educated yourself you should also educate your son and as others have said make him understand that he is ultimately in control and should be prepared to pull himself from a game.
In all the years my son played I never ever had to talk to a coach about abuse. My son threw CBs at 10 yo with my blessing because I educated myself and knew what we were doing.

quote:

If you make statements that are clearly aimed at interfering with a coach you should know what you are talking about.

What statements did I make regarding interferring with a coach? I am just asking some (fairly generic) questions regarding pitch limits for young players. Not once have I said anything to the coach. Nothing has even been done to make me question the coach. I'm just trying to learn a little bit here.

quote:

The only nerve you have struck is the disdain I have developed watching ignorant parents make fools of themselves.

So...I'm ignorant and making a fool of myself by trying to understand the limits for my son.

quote:

People who dramatize this taking care of your son so he can pitch another day have choices and they should educate themselves instead of listening to old ***** tales.

That's why I posted my original question, not to be insulted.

quote:

Your job is to learn about pitching and keep in mind that when you drop your son off at a game , he belongs to the coach.

So while on the field us ignorant parents have no say. Gotcha. If I think he's overheating, and the coach isn't stopping practice for a water break, I'll keep my mouth shut. Thank you for your advice.



To everyone else who actually answered my questions, I truly appreciate it and it is a good starting point for information. Thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by always_late:
To everyone else who actually answered my questions, I truly appreciate it and it is a good starting point for information. Thank you.

Stick to your guns.

You're asking the correct, important questions.

Ignorant = lacking knowledge. Yes I think you lack knowledge.
Sorry if the truth hurts.

always_late,

My recommendation is to simply ignore BobbleheadDoll. In fact, it may be best to just treat him as a troll. He is not a troll; I think he is quite sincere is his writings, but he frequently misunderstands what others have posted, doesn't express his own thoughts clearly, and sometimes (as he has done in this thread) allows disagreements and thoughts from a one thread to creep into another.

In particular, you needn't (and shouldn't in my opinion) concern yourself about his projection of some other parent's attitude onto your own.

Typically, posters here base their thoughts on their own experience, which for most of us in limited to one or two players. Yet there is a tendency to generalize our experience to all players. Perhaps the generalization is correct, but sometimes it is only really applicable to our own kids. Sometimes we attribute outcomes to particular causes, when in reality there was no causuality. So you need to apply some filtering in accepting any advice.

Speaking of advice, here is mine: Beginning pitchers or kids just learning to throw, regardless of age, should avoid icing or analgesics. Any pain is valuable feedback from the body that the throwing motion isn't appropriate for an individual player's muscular and skeletal structure.

3fingers my advice comes from years of experience and watching hundreds of players at all levels.
If he wants to take it personally and finds it insulting,I can't help that.
When is telling a parent to educate himself about what his 9yo old son is about to do bad advice ? The advice is for all parents that want to see their son pitch and stay healthy.
Do you think he is the 1st parent that wants to sit in the stands doing a pitch count or tell a coach he is doing it wrong? If he pushes the wrong button on some coaches his son will be in the stands with him.
Only agree with the the nice things that your mind is set to do anyways.

bballman,

quote:

“I really wish you Marshall guys would stick to the issue”

This is what was being done, go back and read where I started any problems?
I believe you like many have, don’t know how to read with out a bad reaction and then turn it on the Marshall guy.

quote:

“quit starting a big sidetracked debate on nearly every issue involving pitching.”

I did not start any debate, I just asked a concerned father to check the information out and I always will, you don’t see me in any ASMI, NPA or other individuals instructors thread and have asked all of you to keep their individual information in those threads clean.

quote:

"This thread was initially about pitch counts, rest, playing multiple positions for a young pitcher.”

He was also asking about child development, icing, affordability and others.
I did not put Marshall’s icing science out because it does not matter and it will probably come out in the Marshall thread if it survives.
All his information unlike everywhere else is a absolutely free.

quote:

“Before you know it, there are pages and pages on why Marshall and his tenets are the best.”

I agree, please take it over to the Marshall thread!!

quote:

“and only way to pitch.”

That would be pitch healthy! We all agree there is other ways to pitch.

quote:

“It gets a little old after a while.”

The only thing a little old is the blame game.

If Always_Late wants to ask specific Marshall questions? I would prefer he does it in the Marshall thread also. That’s up to him.

quote:

"Tough to get sucked in when I don't understand half of what they are talking about. I think they invented their own language.” “Sounds official..”

The language used is physiologically based and easy to understand if you just give it a chance. If you have any specific questions take it to the right place where you can get an official answer.

Coach2709,

quote:

“Easy bballman you don't want to get too close or they may trick you into drinking the kool aid.”

You are correct Sir, one sip and it all starts making perfect sense, then a gulp makes you want to actually try it, when you are at the guzzle stage you have already found out how superior this information actually is, when your done with the Kool-Aid you can then start on the champagne. Nice talking point though!

quote:

Coach2709,

[QUOTE]“Easy bballman you don't want to get too close or they may trick you into drinking the kool aid.”[QUOTE]
You are correct Sir, one sip and it all starts making perfect sense, then a gulp makes you
want to actually try it, When you are at the guzzle stage you have already found out how superior this information actually is, when your done with the Kool-Aid you can then start on the champagne. Nice talking point though!

Must admit yard, that was a good comeback.

The first thing to know before starting this journey is by high school no one is going to remember who the preteen studs were unless the conversation is about blowing out their arm. Most of the preteen studs my son played with and against are not high school pitchers. Several injured their arms from pitching too much. None of the six pitchers on my son's high school team were preteen studs.

When my son was nine I let him pitch one inning a week. When he was ten it was two innings. At eleven three innings. When he was twelve he pitched up to six a week since his arm was stronger. At twelve he only pitched about seventy innings. Now in high school he'll pitch in relief as a soph and start as a junior.

Check out amsi.org for pitch counts. ASMI was founded by Dr James Andrews, one of the leading sports medicine orthopedic surgeons in the world.

While Mike Marshall (mikemarshall.com) makes sense on protecting young arms, his mechanics are offbeat along with being a paranoid kook. He has a cult like following. After forty years of research not one Marshall disciple has pitched in major college or pro ball.

Remember it's a marathon journey, not a sprint.

Add: My son has never iced his arm. He's never had a sore arm.