Skip to main content

247 replies

Report on the "New" bats

D DenJake10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by freddy77:
quote:
Originally posted by DenJake:
Has anyone compared one of the new BBCOR bats against a composite using a radar gun to measure the exit speed. Could be a pretty easy test to take 20 swings or so off a tee and measure the exit speed with each bat and compare the numbers.


Hitting off a tee wouldn't reflect the advantage the composite has in real conditions against an 85 mph pitch because the low combined collision speed (mph of swing + mph of pitch) off the tee wouldn't even begin to cause the walls of the comp bat to flex.


Thats a good point, however my son does use radar when hitting off the tee. And I can tell you that I have seen substantial difference in max exit speed going from a 32/29 nike composit to a 32/29 wood bat. As you pointed out that difference might exponentially increase as the speed of pitches increase but still you can see a difference off the tee. Also, he has done this same test comparing a brand new bat out of the wrapper with the same model bat with over 800 swings on it and you can see a difference off the tee as well with the broken in bat .
P Prime91,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Sdlefty:
Just witnessed game 1 of the Red/Black series at San Diego State. They swing the new Nike BBCOR. 2 homeruns hit, and multiple ball hit hard. I saw no significant difference. The bat sounded the same as the old bat. BBCOR is here... Let's go play some ball - no big deal!

Keep swinging it...


Spoken like a pitcher, that doesn't hit, wearing blinders and has ear plugs in. I gotta ask, are you sure you were watching?

Agree with let's go play baseball but, it's going to be a long cold wait for the Season to begin. By then, even the hitters will be more optimistic.
Backstop-17Backstop-17500+ posts
I have to agree with Prime9. If you were "listening" to the new BBCOR, it sounds nothing like the old BESR, not at all.

At a recent scrimmage at my son's D2 this fall, we had a high school kid working out with the team who used a BESR. All kids were using Demarini BBCOR, except for him. Swung that darn thing and it sounded like an explosion. It was obvious in the sound -- and distance.

Sure the team has had a lot of hard hit balls, that is what happens when these kids swing - they just don't go quite as far.

I do have to say that I prefer the sound of the new BBCOR bat to the PING of the BESR.
D dswann100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Sdlefty:

Not a pitcher. I was amazed from what I saw too. I was expecting the opposite. I was watching and sitting very close, that was one of the main reasons I was there. Plus my youngest has committed so I was interested in watching them play.

Go figure?

Keep swingin it...


SDL

I spoke with a coach after that game. Those 2 hr's have been the only ones hit this fall.

Maybe the weather had a role in that game 95+, possibly the hitters whom have faced the opposing pitchers 2 dozen times had a little advantage or maybe the thought of the losing team having to wash cars for free on Sun provided the inspiration for better swings. Make no mistake. Vitually across the nation, every pitcher in the bullpen loves the bbcor bat, every hitter hates it.

If my kid was a early commit position player, he'd be swinging this bat in HS.
Rob KremerRob Kremer1,000+ posts
quote:
Vitually across the nation, every pitcher in the bullpen loves the bbcor bat, every hitter hates it.

I'm not all that sure this is correct. No question, the bbcor bat is far less lively. There will be fewer HR's and less offense this season.

But the guy who squares the ball up a lot, the "pure" hitter with a swing that gets gap to gap doubles and the occasional HR - that hitter is now more valuable as the behemoths who once fisted balls over the fence now fly out.
floridafanfloridafan5,000+ posts
If hitters "hate" the new bat, and to the extent that they do I believe is based on what they each anticipated accomplishing before the "rules" were changed.

Some anticipated beating their individual HR or extra base hit records, or setting a new Team record for the books, or they wanted their numbers to impress...someone.

With the new bats, there is a whole new baseline that is being established. It is not clear yet what Good or Great numbers are anymore...
D dswann100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
quote:
Vitually across the nation, every pitcher in the bullpen loves the bbcor bat, every hitter hates it.

I'm not all that sure this is correct. No question, the bbcor bat is far less lively. There will be fewer HR's and less offense this season.

But the guy who squares the ball up a lot, the "pure" hitter with a swing that gets gap to gap doubles and the occasional HR - that hitter is now more valuable as the behemoths who once fisted balls over the fence now fly out.


I believe the "pure hitters" will be at even more of a disadvantage. They will rountinely be pitched around. Guys like Alex Dickerson at IU will probably lead the nation walks.
P Prime91,000+ posts
quote:
But the guy who squares the ball up a lot, the "pure" hitter with a swing that gets gap to gap doubles and the occasional HR - that hitter is now more valuable as the behemoths who once fisted balls over the fence now fly out.


Exactly! That same "skilled hitter" had begun to learn how to impart spin and loft more often to the baseball (if he was good), especially on pitches up in the zone that he could drive into the seats. Now, the adjustment will be to focus on centering more balls aiming for low screamers, line drives thru the holes and hopefully into the those outfield gaps. Those "lofted" balls, of the past, will more often than ever result in fly outs. Good point Rob.

BOF, I would think College Coaches have always looked for guys who could drive the ball out routinely with Wood. But, more often than not, those guys get drafted and I wouldn't expect that to change. Certainly, any hitter that shows the ability to "drive the baseball" will become a more valued asset, in the College game, than ever before. Previously, with seemingly every position player being able to hit the ball out with a hot composite "rocket launcher," pitchers commanded all the attention and lions share of scholarship dollars.
Last edited by Prime9
jerseydadjerseydad1,000+ posts
It's good to see the playing field being leveled a bit by altering the bats. There was nothing more frustrating that watching a pitcher make a great pitch, only to see a garbage hit fall in due to bat technology. As someone else mentioned, now that the bats are changing it will be interesting to see how pitchers transition into a new way of pitching (inside).

My son said the hardest thing for him to get used to against wood bats was learning how to pitching inside. For the last 10 years he was taught to work the outer half of the plate, in the minor leagues those 4 inch off the plate strike zones have pretty much disappeared so he was forced to bring the ball back in. Most of the hitters at that level can mash the ball so if you can’t establish the inside strike, you are going to get killed if you can't keep the hitter from leaning out over the plate(as he found out the hard way his first year).

This season he spent a good part of the year working on his changeup as well as learned a 2 seem fastball to work the inside part of the plate. Having pitches that will run in on a right handed batter is crucial. In the past the only time he went inside was if it was a mistake, now it’s the best way to keep batters honest.
Last edited by jerseydad
Coach_MayCoach_May10,000+ posts
My sons college coach says the big hitters in the line up are still the big hitters in the line. The first time out with the new bats two of the first four hitters went yard. He says the guys that are hurt the most by the new bats are the guys that are not strong enough to drive it and benefitted from the old bats for power. Now they have none.

All I know is it all evens out. There will still be power hitters , gap hitters and spray hitters. The guys that cant hit are not going to start hitting. And the ones that can are not going to stop hitting.

I would still love to see wood period. But we will play with what we have to play with and everyone will adjust.
SdleftySdlefty500+ posts
Prime, another HR hit yesterday by Wilson.

I have heard and seen the Demarini in scrimmages and it sounded completely different than the Nike. The Nike sounds more like the BESR bats. The Demarini sounds horrible. In my opinion it seems like the Nike out performs the Demarini so far. Personally, I have not swung them, just my take. I am interested to see how the Louisville performs.

Keep swining it...
P Prime91,000+ posts
quote:
I am interested to see how the Louisville performs.


Me too. Son's School has used Rawlings and Nike all fall. The Nike's sound like breaking glass when struck. They quickly discarded the Rawlings. I ordered him the Louisville- Omaha for his Birthday (later this month) to try as the Team hasn't brought any of them in yet. There is no magic bullet here. More time in the weight room, cafeteria and batting cage. Good hitters will hopefully become better. They should just go to Wood or composite wood.

Seems to be no concern from ITP (Tennis professionals) regarding 155 mph exit speeds using composite rackets. Talk about changing the game. How about composite shafts in golf, guess they aren't concerned and won't go back to wood.

I can count on one hand bombs hit this fall. The team hit 78 last year. I predict about 1/3rd of that total this coming year.
Rob KremerRob Kremer1,000+ posts
quote:
How about composite shafts in golf, guess they aren't concerned and won't go back to wood.

Actually, golf has done a lot to tone down the equipment. The shaft isn't really much of an issue, but the "trampoline effect" on the face of the club is tightly regulated. Similar to the BBCOR - golf clubs have to have to be under a certain coefficient of restitution to be legal. They also tightly regulate the golf ball for exit velocity.
L LJ3813100+ posts
Does anyone know anything about the tamper evident stamp. Here in Ca. high school has to go to the BBCOR bats for 2011. It would really stink if you buy a BBCOR bat for 2011 and its not legal for 2012. With all the D-1 down to Junior colleges I'm not sure if the manufactures will be able to get enough bats on the market for all the high schools in the state.

http://www.cifstate.org/sports/other/baseball.html

2. Q: What are the new standards for composite bats?

A: They must meet the BBCOR standards that include the Accelerated Break In (ABI) procedure and these bats will be affixed with some type of decal/stamp/silkscreen mark that indicates the bat is BBCOR compliant. In 2010-11, these bats do not need to be affixed with a “tamper evident” stamp/decal or have a stamp/decal that indicates the type of material contained in the barrel of the bat. (It is anticipated that the bat manufacturers, which produce a BBCOR-compliant bat this year, will meet the “tamper evident” seal displayed on the barrel of the bat decal/stamp, but it is possible that bats which have only the BBCOR compliant stamp/decal will be produced.)
UPDATE: Information that we've received indicates the "tamper evident" mark will not be on the 2010-11BBCOR approved bats list. In that case, the "tamper evident" mark will not be required this year.



3. Q: If I purchase a composite bat for the 2010-11 season that only has the BBCOR compliant mark, will the bat be legal in the 2011-12 school year?

A: At this point, no. Starting in 2011-12, all legal non-wood bats must have all the compliance marks as indicated previously.
UPDATE: Our sources indicate some type of "tamper evident" technology will be available next year, 2011-12. Once a definitive answer is available, the CIF will determine the best course of action to take.

3A Is what I dont understand is it for all non wood bats or just fpr the composite bats which used to get shaved and rolled.
B brute66100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by floridafan:

With the new bats, there is a whole new baseline that is being established. It is not clear yet what Good or Great numbers are anymore...


Given where the game started, and the fact that wood had been used in high school and college for far longer than metal, a baseline of exactly what constitutes Good or Great numbers has been unclear for a long time. Maybe now that will improve.
Backstop-17Backstop-17500+ posts
Fall practice concluded yesterday at son's DII.

Out of 450 at bats with new Demarini BBCOR during intersquad scrimmages - 4 home runs hit. About 1 HR per 100 ABs.

Compared to last years competitive spring results:

Team ABs: 2021
Team HRs: 87
Home run per 100 ABs: about 4

Opponent ABs: 1956
Opponent HRs: 38
Home run per 100 ABs: about 2

I think that spring competition will be different as I think the players will keep improving as more experience is gained with the bats.

I witnessed a lot of very hard hit balls that in the past would have been easy homers, that just seemed to get to the warning track.

To sum up my personal feelings about the bats I would say that scoring is still going to be high, it just won't come by the long ball. It will come by hitting in the gaps, small ball and baserunning. Good hitters will still be good hitters, they will adjust. I am looking forward to this type of baseball again.

Backstop-17
Last edited by Backstop-17
P Prime91,000+ posts
quote:
Fall practice concluded yesterday at son's DII.


Good wrap-up analysis BACKSTOP. Pretty much what I saw and would predict to occur. I agree that it will likely make for a better game that "purist" would prefer to see. I'm not sure it's the game that College baseball fans have been coming out in record numbers to watch? Guess College baseball will find out as this BBCOR stuff isn't going away.
Last edited by Prime9
SdleftySdlefty500+ posts
Had a BP session with my son and his JUCO teammates last night. All will be swinging wood instead of BBCO. One kid swinging Nike BBCOR because that is what he will be using at the next level.

They said the new Omaha came in and they did not like it. A fun night in the cages with the boys.

Lefty
Keep swingin it...

They have been swinging wood all summer and fall and have come to love wood!
ILVBBILVBB1,000+ posts
Careful what you wish for! This is another way of looking at the changes in bat requirements at the college level and soon to be high school level.

This fall I have talked with two head coaches of college programs as to effect that the changes will have this year. Both had similar comments about offensive production and a change towards more small ball, pitching domination and the importance of speed and near perfect defense.

What was more interesting was they both had real concerns that while the game will be the same; the changes will adversely impact attendance and potentially funding for college programs. Both told stories about major college programs finishing fall practice without anyone hitting home runs. Without prompting they both pointed to major programs with a strong tradition of large attendance and an atmosphere built on fans expectations of coming to games to see offense. They raised the question “will fans keep coming out to see a 2-1 game without the offense that has become a part of the college game for the past 20-years?” After a year or two; if fan attendance at college games goes down as a result of a shift away from an offensive game; will funding be adversely impacted? If so will the coaches and administrators of these programs lobby for a change back to equipment that helps them economically?

I take the same question and then apply it to the kids that I see when I umpire high school games. Here in California the new bat standard is being applied this season to High Schools. I have seen a continuing weakening of talent. Yes; there are lots of terrific players playing all kinds of competitive baseball; but behind these programs are many more kids playing Freshmen, JV and Frosh/Soph baseball. Rarely do I see kids with the skills and talent to really play the game with a wooden (or near wooden) bats. When these new bats become the standard this year; will the kids all of a sudden have the talent that they have not possessed in recent years? Will a lack of success discourage kids to the point that they abandon the game? One can make a case that as kids become discouraged and leave the game earlier there can be an economic effect that trickles through and has an adverse affect on the attendance, purchases of equipment, funding of programs, etc. in general it can produce an adverse effect to the game as a whole.

I am not making an argument against safety or the tradition of wood bats. What I am trying to do is to look at the potential impact to both college and youth baseball. It is not a simple question of make the game safer and everyone will be better off. I can see a set of result that were completely unintended when the standards were changed.
Last edited by ILVBB
Three BaggerThree Bagger1,000+ posts
ILVBB,

Interesting perspective about the possible economic effects of wood bats or the new metal ones. I'm afraid there is some truth in that as the modern casual fan in all sports has gotten addicted to high scoring, exciting offense. They often miss the subtle nuances of a well played low scoring game. Many of us posters probably are fine with less scoring but many other fans may find the games too boring. Its a fact that throughout ML history, the best attendances in most eras were during higher offensive periods. Unfortunately most people 35 and younger have been used to a higher scoring game at the college and ML levels. They may have trouble accepting the changes. I still think I would like to see DII try the wooden bat thing though.
C cabbagedadHSBaseballWeb member since 2011
great points llvbb,
to elaborate on one...
I spent several years working with the companies that make bats. In general, wood for bats is readily available, good wood for good bats is not. Bat manufacturers are somewhat limited now in supplying MLB and MILB. If you start using wood for all college baseball and more and more club ball and adult leagues, the demand becomes multiplied several times over. Combine a lesser grade wood with lesser abilities and you will see yet a steeper drop in bat performance and bigger impact on the decline of offense. This compounds the other concerns that you listed.
MTHMTH10,000+ posts
Quick, how many home runs did your favorite college team average last year? I'll bet you it was less than you think.
http://web1.ncaa.org/stats/StatsSrv/rankings

273 out of 292 teams averaged 1.5 HR's or less. 210 out of 292 averaged 1.09 per game or less. Many of the teams with high totals were at launching pads, C of C (1.67), Georgia Tech (1.97) and Auburn (2.05). In contrast, Major League Teams averaged .95 HR's per game.

Yes, HR's will be down, but how much that will affect scoring remains to be seen. Personally, I don't think the HR is really as big a part of the game as most people think. We tend to remember those rolled bat slugfests, but there really aren't as many of those as people think, at least not at most schools.

The college game will be fine.


quote:
Originally posted by ILVBB:
Careful what you wish for! This is another way of looking at the changes in bat requirements at the college level and soon to be high school level.

This fall I have talked with two head coaches of college programs as to effect that the changes will have this year. Both had similar comments about offensive production and a change towards more small ball, pitching domination and the importance of speed and near perfect defense.

What was more interesting was they both had real concerns that while the game will be the same; the changes will adversely impact attendance and potentially funding for college programs. Both told stories about major college programs finishing fall practice without anyone hitting home runs. Without prompting they both pointed to major programs with a strong tradition of large attendance and an atmosphere built on fans expectations of coming to games to see offense. They raised the question “will fans keep coming out to see a 2-1 game without the offense that has become a part of the college game for the past 20-years?” After a year or two; if fan attendance at college games goes down as a result of a shift away from an offensive game; will funding be adversely impacted? If so will the coaches and administrators of these programs lobby for a change back to equipment that helps them economically?

I take the same question and then apply it to the kids that I see when I umpire high school games. Here in California the new bat standard is being applied this season to High Schools. I have seen a continuing weakening of talent. Yes; there are lots of terrific players playing all kinds of competitive baseball; but behind these programs are many more kids playing Freshmen, JV and Frosh/Soph baseball. Rarely do I see kids with the skills and talent to really play the game with a wooden (or near wooden) bats. When these new bats become the standard this year; will the kids all of a sudden have the talent that they have not possessed in recent years? Will a lack of success discourage kids to the point that they abandon the game? One can make a case that as kids become discouraged and leave the game earlier there can be an economic effect that trickles through and has an adverse affect on the attendance, purchases of equipment, funding of programs, etc. in general it can produce an adverse effect to the game as a whole.

I am not making an argument against safety or the tradition of wood bats. What I am trying to do is to look at the potential impact to both college and youth baseball. It is not a simple question of make the game safer and everyone will be better off. I can see a set of result that where completely unintended when the standards were changed.
getagoodpitchtohitgetagoodpitchtohit100+ posts
Two Words......BAUM BAT

quote:
Originally posted by cabbagedad:
great points llvbb,
to elaborate on one...
I spent several years working with the companies that make bats. In general, wood for bats is readily available, good wood for good bats is not. Bat manufacturers are somewhat limited now in supplying MLB and MILB. If you start using wood for all college baseball and more and more club ball and adult leagues, the demand becomes multiplied several times over. Combine a lesser grade wood with lesser abilities and you will see yet a steeper drop in bat performance and bigger impact on the decline of offense. This compounds the other concerns that you listed.
getagoodpitchtohitgetagoodpitchtohit100+ posts
To the contrary, by necessity I think this will only accelerate the growing trend of kids learning to swing the bat the right way and lead to the development of a larger pool of good hitters. In the end this will all make for a better, more pure game of baseball. The good pitchers that are not high velocity pitchers will now get to baffle hitters as they should. There will eventually be more good, solid hitters, only the hitters that should hit home runs will, and maybe the bunt will again be used as an offensive weapon and not just a means to an ends.

People will always point out all the pitfalls in resistance to change. But the game of baseball spent the first 80% of its life being played exclusively this way. What was wrong with that?

Sometimes we need to take a step back to move forward.

quote:
Originally posted by ILVBB:
Careful what you wish for! This is another way of looking at the changes in bat requirements at the college level and soon to be high school level.

This fall I have talked with two head coaches of college programs as to effect that the changes will have this year. Both had similar comments about offensive production and a change towards more small ball, pitching domination and the importance of speed and near perfect defense.

What was more interesting was they both had real concerns that while the game will be the same; the changes will adversely impact attendance and potentially funding for college programs. Both told stories about major college programs finishing fall practice without anyone hitting home runs. Without prompting they both pointed to major programs with a strong tradition of large attendance and an atmosphere built on fans expectations of coming to games to see offense. They raised the question “will fans keep coming out to see a 2-1 game without the offense that has become a part of the college game for the past 20-years?” After a year or two; if fan attendance at college games goes down as a result of a shift away from an offensive game; will funding be adversely impacted? If so will the coaches and administrators of these programs lobby for a change back to equipment that helps them economically?

I take the same question and then apply it to the kids that I see when I umpire high school games. Here in California the new bat standard is being applied this season to High Schools. I have seen a continuing weakening of talent. Yes; there are lots of terrific players playing all kinds of competitive baseball; but behind these programs are many more kids playing Freshmen, JV and Frosh/Soph baseball. Rarely do I see kids with the skills and talent to really play the game with a wooden (or near wooden) bats. When these new bats become the standard this year; will the kids all of a sudden have the talent that they have not possessed in recent years? Will a lack of success discourage kids to the point that they abandon the game? One can make a case that as kids become discouraged and leave the game earlier there can be an economic effect that trickles through and has an adverse affect on the attendance, purchases of equipment, funding of programs, etc. in general it can produce an adverse effect to the game as a whole.

I am not making an argument against safety or the tradition of wood bats. What I am trying to do is to look at the potential impact to both college and youth baseball. It is not a simple question of make the game safer and everyone will be better off. I can see a set of result that where completely unintended when the standards were changed.
B baseball17500+ posts
Interesting, however, what prompted the move to metal bats to start. I remember back in the old days, the first metal bats being used in adult leagues, to reduce costs from breaking bats all the time. I really don't think those things produced more offense, but I don't think you could break them in a vise.

That was in the mid 70s. Baseball was starting to lose its grip on the American public. First, the NFL, then the NBA, even to a certain extent, the NHL, golf with the Tiger effect, and especially now s****r, are all options that allow participation with a different skill set. It used to be, football, basketball, baseball in their respective seasons. Now your chosen sport is a year round endeavor. Was it part of the plan to increase attendance/participation by enhancing performance through PEE (performance enhancing equipment) that was being lost to other options?

I don't know that it was a cause/effect relationship, but it seems to have gone hand in hand.

I don't blame anyone for choosing to play/participate in something that brings them enjoyment. That is how it should be. I do think it will reduce the baseball playing population in the U.S.
C cabbagedadHSBaseballWeb member since 2011
good pitch,
I was responding to the more recent comments in this thread discussing use of WOOD bats at college level. Baum Bat is a composite bat with a wood shell - has some favorable traits but different animal.
I have coached and/or observed many 16u, 18u club events the last few years and JC practice this fall where wood is used - outfielders set positions are generally 5 to 7 steps in to start compared to where they previously played.
I was at a club friendly DH this past weekend where there was lack of cummunication regarding bat use - one team used wood, the other didn't. Significant difference in player positioning, balls to the fence (and over) and many fan comments like "that's OK, that ball would have been caught if they were using wood."
I understand that much of this does not apply to the best players - most players are not the best players.
I agree that the players that stay in the game will become better hitters by using wood. However...
I've got some purist in me too and love wood so I hate to say it, but let there be no doubt, the further the wood bat use trickles down, the more negative impact there will be on player and fan participation.
B brute66100+ posts
"I was responding to the more recent comments in this thread discussing use of WOOD bats at college level. Baum Bat is a composite bat with a wood shell - has some favorable traits but different animal."

I'm hoping you can explain why you are dismissive of the Baum Bat...at least in the context goodpitch mentioned it. It is legal for use in all leagues where wood is required up to short season A ball in the pros. It has swing characteristics nearly identical to common pro wood models, and is more consistent bat to bat than wood. It also doesn't break. It won't deplete scarce wood supplies either.

It's fairly ridiculous to infer that DII will be reduced to swinging warped and knotty scrub wood. In fact, Baum Bats will be very popular there like they are elsewhere.

As with a wood bat, if a player learns to swing a Baum, he is miles ahead when using a BBCOR.

All things considered, the best thing for the game is to teach kids to swing correctly, not hand them a crutch.
Last edited by brute66
PreviousNext

Add Reply

Post
.

Membership Required

We're sorry. You must be signed in to continue. Sign In or Register
×
Are you sure you want to remove from your Block List?
×
Loading...
×
When you block a person, they can no longer invite you to a private message or post to your profile wall. Replies and comments they make will be collapsed/hidden by default. Finally, you'll never receive email notifications about content they create or likes they designate for your content.
Note: if you proceed, you will no longer be following .
×
Advanced Search
Advanced Search
Link copied to your clipboard.
×