Report on the "New" bats

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:
Why would this be approved for Little League where the skill level differences are so great? At least
in college the talent is capable of compensating for hyper performance bats.Performs Just Like a Wood Bat !!!

Personally believe you're jumping the gun, if inferring the composites need to be banned from youth ball. DeMarini CF4's are on the composite waiver list for composite bats that meet the ball exit ratio(BESR) & the accelerated break-in (ABI) test & as such are approved for the 2010-2011 academic year. By passing the test, one can surmise the -3 CF4's are not as hot as some may believe just because they're of composite construction. I'd venture to bet there will be full composite -3 bats approved for 2012 use, & they def won't be won't as hot as the 2012 Easton Stealth Speeds, which by no coincidence, did not make the waiver list

quote:

Personally believe you're jumping the gun, if inferring the composites need to be banned from youth ball.

My personal belief is that NObat should be banned for any reason. Isn't that why organizations make an "approved" list" because you can't ban it if you don't know it exists and the list would be constantly ammended and annoyingly lengthy. So if you want to say I would be jumping the gun by inferring that the composites need to remain off the approved list for youth ball, then there you go.

Maybe you can help me understand.....what characteristics of the Demarini CF4's make it safe to use in youth ball and not in high school or college. To get further to the point, why is BBCOR not the standard for youth ball as well? And also just because the condition of the bat as it comes out of the factory is at an "acceptable" BESR and ABI doesn't mean it's tamper proof.

So my point is that the metals, aluminum, and composite versions of the baseball bat are: expensive (especially for youth ball), over hyped, subject to easy modification, and foster an environment with inherent advantages for those who possess superior bats or who modify. I mean, here we have the standard, the wood bat. It is a renewable resource, Oak is $86, Red and Hard Maple $76, Ash $55, Youth Maple $57 and even better prices in bulk. Why are we then going to develop a bat made of non wood materials ($300) that is suppose to be just like a wood bat? If we can voluntarily go from all wood (1960's) to all metals/composites then we can voluntarily go back to wood. The only thing different about the game of baseball is the pro salaries.

I guess I'm just a confused observer.

I am with you dino, if it just like wood lets just use wood. I am tired of hearing about the cost savings, please at 399 for one of the new bats you are not saving any money.

While we are switching to wood or whatever the new bbcor is supposed to be like lets also switch the pitchers to a major league ball with the lower seams and more travel on the ball

quote:

Maybe you can help me understand.....what characteristics of the Demarini CF4's make it safe to use in youth ball and not in high school or college. To get further to the point, why is BBCOR not the standard for youth ball as well? And also just because the condition of the bat as it comes out of the factory is at an "acceptable" BESR and ABI doesn't mean it's tamper proof.

First off, I believe in the youth baseball associations policing their own, not using some one size fits all rules ( an extension of BBCOR). As an example, USSSA came out last Summer & said no more coach pitch marked bats to be used in its tournaments or leagues. Over the last 3 years many of us witnessed with the the younger players, the ultra thin walled coach pitch bats in machine pitch & in 9U's. Obscene amt of pop, balls were coming off these bats way too quickly for the avg young pitcher to field or get out of the way. The organization did something about it, but they they did not legislate deader than dead bats for these young players. Do you have any idea how many kids they would run out of the game, if that had been the case?

Wood... My sons began using wood bats in the cages & at a few wood bat tourneys each year starting in the 9's. My observation, the average 9-10-11-12 y/o will struggle with wood bats. Say that though, our best hitters with waaaay above avg mechanics had little problem with them. Lightest 29" wood bat I ever put on a scale weighed right under 22 oz. Most 9's & 10's will have a hard time with a bat of that weight. By not hitting the sweet spot, they will end up breaking their share of youth wood bats. Metal & composite bats are here to stay in the youth market, the high demand for a durable, properly balanced bat that has some pop to it, is why wood will remain either a training aid or a novelty in that market.

As far as modifications go, even counting numerous longtime nationwide traveling slow pitch softball players as friends, many of them with youth players as sons, just don't see modified composite bats as even a minute issue in local HS or youth ball. Good friends who are local TD's & UIC's will say the same. If modded bats are a big issue in your area, sounds like you have a bunch of parents with zero integrity, along with local TD's who wont step up & start inspecting & weighing bats. Thats pathetic.

CF4's. Back when when my youngest first hit with his -7 SR League CF4, it's not like it took days to break it in. It pretty much had the same pop the 1st day in the cage as it had a few weeks later in tournament play. Some of his teammates liked it & used it a lot during the season, a few didn't. As the season went on, the #1 thing, he liked about the CF4 is it did not lose its pop like his previous alloy bats (Exo's & Stealths). To me, more than anything, the CF4 not going dead was a major plus. In anticipation of school ball, my youngest paid me out of his saved $$$ enough for a bargain priced new -3 Exo. This last weekend he had a few ABs where he tried out a Stealth Speed 95 & a new CF4. Neither composite put a huge smile on his face, hit several doubles with both, along with his Exo. Had more than 3 players in the tourn been swinging wood all weekend, might have gone there too.

After using them for a while, my son reports these bats are not a big deal, just an adjustment.

quote:

Originally posted by journey2:

quote:

Maybe you can help me understand.....what characteristics of the Demarini CF4's make it safe to use in youth ball and not in high school or college. To get further to the point, why is BBCOR not the standard for youth ball as well? And also just because the condition of the bat as it comes out of the factory is at an "acceptable" BESR and ABI doesn't mean it's tamper proof.

As far as modifications go, even counting numerous longtime nationwide traveling slow pitch softball players as friends, many of them with youth players as sons, just don't see modified composite bats as even a minute issue in local HS or youth ball. Good friends who are local TD's & UIC's will say the same. If modded bats are a big issue in your area, sounds like you have a bunch of parents with zero integrity, along with local TD's who wont step up & start inspecting & weighing bats. Thats pathetic.

NCAA women' softball has determined that visual inspection of composite bats is insufficient. They're implementing on-site Barrel Compression Tests, using $700 test devices.

During this year's NCAA softball postseason, Barrel Compression Tests discovered "an astonishing number of bats out of compliance." To me, this suggests that we're naive about the situation in upper level youth ball and in HS baseball.

At the Regionals and WS, 14 bats flunked a Barrel Compression Test out of the 28 composite bats that were voluntarily submitted for testing.

Here's an excerpt from the memo--

TO: 2010-11 NCAA Division I Head Softball Coaches.
FROM: Sharon K. Cessna
Director of Championships.
SUBJECT: Important Information for the 2010-11 Season.

Bat Testing. We are currently in receipt of the results of the bat testing that was conducted during the 2010 postseason. To say the results are discouraging is an understatement. .... due to the astonishing number of bats out of compliance at the highest level, there is an additional proposal going through the review process at the time of this memo."

freddy,
Of these 14 softball bats that failed, were the end caps removed by officials & the internal walls checked for shaving? If material was removed, the bat would be lighter, if not lighter, these bats just became hotter with breakin. Its not that hard to place an original gripped bat on a scale & weigh it, then confirm the scale against known weights.

quote:

Originally posted by journey2:
freddy,
Of these 14 softball bats that failed, were the end caps removed by officials & the internal walls checked for shaving? If material was removed, the bat would be lighter, if not lighter, these bats just became hotter with breakin. Its not that hard to place an original gripped bat on a scale & weigh it, then confirm the scale against known weights.

Looks like these were composite bats. Composite bats get rolled and metal bats get shaved. Two different issues.

I think the problem was with the composite bats getting rolled and not so much the shaving. I don't think there is any way to tell if a composite bat had been rolled, thus the need for the testing device. I also think bat rolling was the norm at the higher levels of College baseball and likely becoming epidemic at the HS level as well. JMO...

As for shaving the new BBCOR bats, anyone caught doing that should face a baseball "death penalty" Zero room for that kind of blatant cheating. There needs to be something in place that keeps any overzealous dads/players from even thinking about going there.

quote:

Originally posted by journey2:
freddy,
Of these 14 softball bats that failed, were the end caps removed by officials & the internal walls checked for shaving? If material was removed, the bat would be lighter, if not lighter, these bats just became hotter with breakin. Its not that hard to place an original gripped bat on a scale & weigh it, then confirm the scale against known weights.

It's my understanding that after they shave a couple of ounces off the inside of a composite bat, they typically replace the weight with a couple of ounces of epoxy in the end-cap.

If you don't replace the weight, the gains from increased trampoline effect would be offset by a loss from having less mass in the business end of the bat.

A bat rolling blog is already bragging about how it's possible to alter composite BBCOR bats.

There's no telling if this info is accurate, or simply bravado and marketing.

"We’ve seen several of the new BBCOR bats and what the manufacturers are doing to ensure they meet the new performance standard. One of these changes simply incorporate a bushing (for the lack of a better description) is installed in the barrel of their composite bats which prevent the barrel from flexing too much. Some bat doctors are simply removing the bushings and this allows the bat to perform like it did prior to the BBCOR standard. There are other proprietary altering methods being tested right now as well which will improve the performance of BBCOR bats. Stay tuned for more information as more and more BBCOR approved bats hit the market."

www.batrollingblog.com

This stuff is crazy. I didn't realize people were shaving composite bats AND rolling them. I always thought metal got shaved and composite got rolled.

I still think the only way to keep these issues in check is a penalty so severe that it isn't worth the risk. Anyone know what the penalty is now for using a doctored bat?

For George Brett, the penalty was an out.

Good grief, the things parents won't do to try to turn Little Billie into a baseball player. And don't tell me it's not momma and daddy, it's mostly college kids because momma and daddy are still footing the bill.

quote:

Originally posted by freddy77:

quote:

Originally posted by journey2:

quote:

Maybe you can help me understand.....what characteristics of the Demarini CF4's make it safe to use in youth ball and not in high school or college. To get further to the point, why is BBCOR not the standard for youth ball as well? And also just because the condition of the bat as it comes out of the factory is at an "acceptable" BESR and ABI doesn't mean it's tamper proof.

As far as modifications go, even counting numerous longtime nationwide traveling slow pitch softball players as friends, many of them with youth players as sons, just don't see modified composite bats as even a minute issue in local HS or youth ball. Good friends who are local TD's & UIC's will say the same. If modded bats are a big issue in your area, sounds like you have a bunch of parents with zero integrity, along with local TD's who wont step up & start inspecting & weighing bats. Thats pathetic.

NCAA women' softball has determined that visual inspection of composite bats is insufficient. They're implementing on-site Barrel Compression Tests, using $700 test devices.

During this year's NCAA softball postseason, Barrel Compression Tests discovered "an astonishing number of bats out of compliance." To me, this suggests that we're naive about the situation in upper level youth ball and in HS baseball.

At the Regionals and WS, 14 bats flunked a Barrel Compression Test out of the 28 composite bats that were voluntarily submitted for testing.

Here's an excerpt from the memo--

TO: 2010-11 NCAA Division I Head Softball Coaches.
FROM: Sharon K. Cessna
Director of Championships.
SUBJECT: Important Information for the 2010-11 Season.

Bat Testing. We are currently in receipt of the results of the bat testing that was conducted during the 2010 postseason. To say the results are discouraging is an understatement. .... due to the astonishing number of bats out of compliance at the highest level, there is an additional proposal going through the review process at the time of this memo."

The problem with the compression test is that a well broken in composite, which was legally broken in by taking lots of BP with it, can fail a compression test. The problem is the design of the composite bat. They are engineered to get hotter after they are tested. If the tester roll them before they test them the problem stops.

quote:

Originally posted by 1baseballdad:
This stuff is crazy. I didn't realize people were shaving composite bats AND rolling them. I always thought metal got shaved and composite got rolled.

I still think the only way to keep these issues in check is a penalty so severe that it isn't worth the risk. Anyone know what the penalty is now for using a doctored bat?

You can shave a composite but it's not very practical. It makes a very hot bat BUT will only last for 3 or 4 swings. I don't know a bout a fast pitch player swinging one (IMO a 60 MPH fastball would chatter one on the first swing) but a male slow pitch batter better have deep pockets if they are shaving composites because they would go through 30, 400 dollar bats a tournament.

1 part of these illegal bats that many that use them don't understand are the legal ramifications.If someone gets hurt or killed,they are liable legally and financially.


I know of 1 high school coach that said it was brought up to him to get the team bats done and he told them he wasn't going to be responsible for someone getting hurt and going to jail for it.I was glad to hear it from him.

We live in California and the high schools here are supposed to use the BBCOR bats for the 2011 season. I just received my new Baseball Express catalog and none of the bats for sale are BBCOR approved. The local sporting good stores say it won't happen this year because the bats won't be available in time. I don't care which bats the kids use but it sure would be nice to be able to practice with them. My son has been using wood all fall, even though the others are using metal. Any thoughts on the availability of these bats for the 2011 season.

The wife and I made the two hour drive Friday afternoon to see Prime Jr. play a double header against local JUCO. Two 7-inning games with NO home runs. JUCO team used metal and composites while we used the BBCOR's; two Nike's and one Rawlings. In talking with son and players they, to a man, disagree that these bats perform "as good as wood." They sound like metal cracking or breaking when the ball is hit off center. If the ball is centered and hit low the ball seems to travel well. Balls hit in the air just don't seem to go anywhere!

Son would rather use wood but will be forced to use the bats. Of the two, they all say the Nike is the best and that the Rawlings is really BAD!.

It seems having a solid defensive infield will be even more critical now. Trade off between offensive production vs defensive capability might need to be recalabrated.

quote:

I am hearing from college players that the new bats are drastically different than the old metal bats.

Should probably let this thread die but to those on here who have minimized the impact of the BBCOR by reporting that"if hit right the ball is still traveling like it always did." I say BS!

I've watch many a scrimmage now and the impact and performance differences are DRAMATIC!

See the recent Baseball America 10/31 and read the reports from;

Mississippi State; "just two home runs had been hit in batting practice or intrasquads in a month of workouts and practice!"

Virgina; "only the strongest players have been able to hit the ball out of the park in batting practice."

Texas (Augie Garido); "the difference in the bats is recognizable from the first batted ball."

Clearly, some reporters here that say the ball travels the same when centered; are seeing something different than I have seen, AND apparently some major college programs are seeing the same DISTANCE drops in the travel of balls off these bat!!

Now whether the change is a good or bad thing is a different subject all together. The fact is, the ball does not travel well and hitters are changing their approach and the College game will change dramatically this year.

Makes sense to me. Logic tells me when essentially the entire bat is a sweet spot more
quality balls will be hit as opposed to a bat with a "normal" sweet spot. Hopefully we won't hear kids walking around saying "I need a new bat, this one doesn't have any pop left". The new bats don't have any to start with. And that's the way it should be.

Kids will have to develop the ability to hit with...Skills. The way it should be.

Is wood legal to use in HS?

After watching a number of scrimmages, it's going to be a tough year for junior position players looking towards the draft. Not quite sure how scouts will be able to make the adjustment on a players offensive stats this coming year. Even the guys who can rake will simply be pitched around.

I keep hearing the same thing "if you square up on the ball it will go" After around 50 innings I've seen one squared up and even then it was off the wall.

quote:

Originally posted by dswann:
After watching a number of scrimmages, it's going to be a tough year for junior position players looking towards the draft. Not quite sure how scouts will be able to make the adjustment on a players offensive stats this coming year. Even the guys who can rake will simply be pitched around.

I keep hearing the same thing "if you square up on the ball it will go" After around 50 innings I've seen one squared up and even then it was off the wall.

The new bat specifications will make the scout's job easier as they will be able to determine easier what they may do when in the minors with wood bats.

It's all good!

I have been following fall scrimmages in the MAC and some Big Ten. Some doubles, an occasional triple - have yet to hear/see in box score a HR. I think college baseball will be changed dramatically and also may help players at D2 D3 schools get noticed if they can hit the ball.

quote:

I keep hearing the same thing "if you square up on the ball it will go" After around 50 innings I've seen one squared up and even then it was off the wall.

Yes, exactly what I have witnessed. Having watched a gazillion Pro games, practices and PrimeJr. play with Wood through the Past Summer/Fall Leagues, my reaction is that they are LESS responsive than Wood!!

PrimeJr. would rather swing Wood, been told by his Coach that they MUST all use the new bats....

There's always a way around the rules. It's called moving in the fences.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
There's always a way around the rules. It's called moving in the fences.

Now there's a thought Bum! PrimeJr's field is 387' in the alleys and 403' to center which is large even by MLB standards. Hopefully, the Coach there, and at other Colleges, will be hit by the same bolt of wisdom that you've presented..

My son is playing college ball and he told me also that the ball jumps off of wood better than the new BBCOR bats. He's fairly big at 6' 200 lbs and a really strong kid. He has always been a line drive hitter but did hit 9 homers as a HS Senior. He has played the last two off seasons in wood bat leagues and is comfortable with wood. Hopefully it is a learning period and they will come around but so far in the fall, no HR's with the new bats whereas in previous years BP was a home run derby even in High School.

Attended a DI Fall scrimmage where current DI roster used the new bats and graduated alumni team used the "old" metal bats. The difference was UNBELIEVABLE. It was a warm fall day, little wind, so conditions not a factor.

College game will change, those who adapt and can move runners, successfully bunt, situationally hit and play defense will benefit. Pop ups to the outfield will be pop ups and fly ball outs and not wind aided homeruns.

All of this has been previously state, but seeing the contrast in person was certainly an eye opening experience.

Oh yes, my son is a pitcher, so he is pretty happy about it!

Good to hear.

My son's D2 played a DH last weekend against a JUCO. As you might expect, son's team dominated. Huge difference between a team starting mostly juniors and seniors, and a team that by definition can't have any juniors or seniors.

Anyway, the JUCO used the old bats and the D2 the new bats. Only run in the first game for the JUCO came on a monster home run hit by a kid who looked 5'10" and 160. Ball cleared the scoreboard and just kept going. After the game my son laughed and said as he heard that familiar "ping" and watched the ball go way out he thought, "Man, I miss those old bats."

By the way, the D2 hit several balls out or off the wall. However, the only guys on the team who hit it that far were upperclassmen with serious strength. My son is lamenting that he got to college a few years too late, but I keep telling him he'll be a better hitter in the long run.

My son is allowed to do live batting practice now with his recovery.Its only batting practice but he did hit two out today in BP.we will see

quote:

Originally posted by fanofgame:
My son is allowed to do live batting practice now with his recovery.Its only batting practice but he did hit two out today in BP.we will see

That's awesome FOG! You know which schools that my son's been visiting, and the coaches have said that none of the players had gone yard with the new bats yet. That just means that your kid has some POP! And...he's not even 100% yet!

Hey, I just thought of something...these new bats should only cost about half of last year's models, right?!?!

Yes pappi, but I'm sure the Easter Bunny will just bring me some with my jellybeans this year!

Just witnessed game 1 of the Red/Black series at San Diego State. They swing the new Nike BBCOR. 2 homeruns hit, and multiple ball hit hard. I saw no significant difference. The bat sounded the same as the old bat. BBCOR is here... Let's go play some ball - no big deal!

Keep swinging it...

Has anyone compared one of the new BBCOR bats against a composite using a radar gun to measure the exit speed. Could be a pretty easy test to take 20 swings or so off a tee and measure the exit speed with each bat and compare the numbers.

quote:

Originally posted by DenJake:
Has anyone compared one of the new BBCOR bats against a composite using a radar gun to measure the exit speed. Could be a pretty easy test to take 20 swings or so off a tee and measure the exit speed with each bat and compare the numbers.

Hitting off a tee wouldn't reflect the advantage the composite has in real conditions against an 85 mph pitch because the low combined collision speed (mph of swing + mph of pitch) off the tee wouldn't even begin to cause the walls of the comp bat to flex.