Report on the "New" bats

quote:

I also wanted to comment on the strike zone...if you think that pitchers will start coming inside more often, do you think college umps will finally stop giving the pitchers the good 2-3+ inches off the outside corner that I've seen in past years?

OMG I sure hope so. Awful.At D1 level umpires doing this. Most horrible strike zones.

Here we go................

Well,

Here we go?

The plate is the plate.When you got guys that are 1-5 round draft picks throwing very good already, why do you expand the zone? You have to crowd the plate to reach the balls called outside like that.So if they are going to come in now with new bats, you have to bring in the outside some.That's my opinion.

Fan: you and I are on the same sheet of music. I am on the record as wondering why the pitch over the inside third of the plate is a ball and the pitch 4 to 8 inches outside is a strike? (also why the bellybutton is high)......

If the bats can somehow change this then hallelujah

I have to assume you are speaking of local umpires. Part of my summer was spent reviewing the plate jobs of CWS for a clinic we will put on locally. I don't recall seeing a pitch one third in from the inside corner being called a ball, nor did I see a pitch 2" into the opposite batter's box called a strike. (8" outside)

There is no doubt pitches are missed. There is no doubt that, as with players and managers, some umpires are better than others. There is also no doubt that there is no perfect umpire.

When I see an umpire call pitches off the plate a strike, what I notice most often is an error in mechanics. When I see a pitch missed on the inside corner, what I notice often is the umpire was set up in such a way that the catcher took the "slot" away and the umpire didn't see the pitch as it arrived at the plate.

When that happens, we are trained to call the pitch a ball and suggest to the catcher that he give us some room to see the pitch. This happens at all levels from the lowest amateur to the highest professional.

When an umpire's mechanics don't allow him to see the pitch properly, this is most likely an error, not an itentional act.

Like different batters can miss the same pitch for different reason, different umpires can miss the same pitch for different reasons. Regardless of the cause the result is usually losing the ball momentarily and when that happens, the brain connects the dots and gives the umpires the perception that he "saw" something that he didn't see.

With training, a lot practice and many, many "reps" umpires are able to greatly minimize the number of times this happens, but it happens.

Another thought: I don't know why people are so surprised D-1 make mistakes. Those of us fortunate to have worked our way to this level understand that we are not at the top of our craft.

Umpires in D-1, as a group, are pretty much like the players and coaches at D-1. There are a few really, really good umpires, there are some more who are better than the rest and then there are the rest, who can perform better than most umpires at the next level down. But none of us are the equal of professional umpires with the same length of service.

We don not get the time in spring training, fall instucts or winter ball. Most of us have not even been to proschool. We do not get the detailed evals or feed back.

Now, none of this is to excuse bad calls. While there may be a reason for a bad call, there is no excuse. We take this job on knowing that people who have never tried calling 90 mph pitches often expect us to be better than we or most anyone can be. That's okay, it comes with the territory. We often expect more from coaches and players than they can give as well.

But, bottom line, few umpires intentionally screw up. Most missed pitches are just that missed pitches. As a group we haven't reached the 95% accuracy that the MLB umpires have, (although many think they have). But we do fairly well.

We will become uniformly excellent about the time all nine spot batters hit .400

As long as players, managers and umpires are chosen from the population at large, even after screening and development, each group will have some members not as good as others.

Have a great off season.

I played hs ball in the late 70's and started coaching in the early 90's at the hs level. My last year of hs baseball was the last year wood bats where used in NC hs baseball. When I played in HS you simply got pitched. In , out , up , down. When I started coaching HS baseball metal bats had been around for a few years. Everyone was pitching away , away , away. When they did come in they came in off the plate or at least tried to. But that was not very often.

Because of this the approach that many coaches had gone to was "hit it the other way. Look the other way. Toe up on the plate. Sit on pitches the other way." And with the metal bat kids could still have success looking the other way and getting busted inside. The better hitters dominated and the average hitters had a lot of success. The poor hitter was capable of being a very average hitter.

When I was in HS a guy throwing upper 80's dominated hitters. A guy throwing in the 90's was a phenom that only got beat by errors or walks. This kind of velo vs a hs hitter with a wood bat was simply dominating against hs hitters. All you have to do is look at the record book and the era's , wins . K's , etc etc.

So what happened when wood bats were replaced with metal bats? Hitters changed their approach. Pitchers changed their approach. Coaches changed their approach. And umpires changed as well. When pitch after pitch after pitch is away. When the pitcher is working away the entire game. When hitters are looking away and getting up on the plate the entire game. The plate shifts. The entire focus shifts. The umpires shifted as well. And that is simply a fact.

How many times have we seen a pitcher work away pitch after pitch and then all of a sudden he busts one inside on the plate and everyone is frozen? The batter and the umpire. Hitters have adjusted to being worked away by moving up on the plate and looking away. Pitchers have adjusted to the metal bats by working away. Umpires have done the exact same thing.

Now Jimmy I will take you at your word on what you teach and how you umpire. But my experience in this game and from watching this game is that a pitch thrown to the mitt "a pitcher hitting his spot" on the outside even 2-3" off the plate will consistently result in a strike call many times. And some will give even more. But that same pitch is almost always called a ball if its inside. Why? My post explains why.

I think what FanofGame is saying is with the old advantage of the metal bats seemingly gone from the game then everyone needs to make the needed adjustments and that includes the umpires. If that is what she is saying I totally agree with her.

I am not talking MILB or MLB. I am talking hs baseball and college baseball. Now if others have not experience this thats fine. But it is what I have seen for quite awhile now at these levels of play.

Metal bat games with good hitters in the line up 1-9 on both teams are a joke when the umpire does not give the pitcher something. If he forces him to throw to a strike zone that is actually over the plate it ends up being a joke. Umpires know this and they have expanded their strike zones to compensate for the advantage of the metal bat. Will they now shift the plate back to its original location? How long will it take? We will see.

I would like to hear from some parents of college and hs players in reference to my post. As well as coaches. Do you agree , is this what you see? I know its what I see. And I am not saying I have a problem with it. I will though if these bats are found to perform like wood and we keep a metal bat strike zone.

Coach May,

I absolutely agree. When my sons were about 14 I finally convinced them that even though the pitch was not a "strike" they were going to have to start swinging at that pitch with two strikes that was two to four inches off the plate and at least foul it off. Virtually every umpire in our area and by that I mean from Dallas to Houston to San Antonio to Corpus Christi was ringing people up on outside pitches especially on the lower half.

Jimmy, yes I am talking local... Coach may, very well stated... If the new bats improve the game, and I think they will, I am ready for it

Coach May is dead on it. Around here the outside edge of the "plate" literally extends to the inside line of the opposite batter's box.

Son's team got their first 2011 bats yesterday and used them in intersquad. His comments to me last night, "sounded terrible", doesn't go as far, crushed one that would have been out (left center) with 2010 bat that only made it to warning track. All in all he said they were ok, just not as hot, and he really hated the sound. Of course 3-4 probably helped his opinion.

With respect to umpires, I would hate to be one. Most of the ones I know try very hard to do their job. That being said, what I have seen, primarily in western Kentucky and Tennessee college games the past three years mirror the above comments. Strikes are consistently called 4-6 inches off the plate. I think coach has some valid points. When my guy was doing 12U travel ball, and he was pitching then, one game every kid on the othe team literally had their toes 2 inches from the plate. You had no choice but to pitch away as they were allowed to do this. Jimmy's comments about job levels are also valid, and I think I have seen that, particularly in the wood bat summer league.

If this helps go back to results more like wood, great. If it brings the strike zone back over the plate, great. If it rewards good hitters and penalizes poor hitters like wood, great. One of son's friends and teammates hits .300 with 5-10 home runs in college season. He hits .170 with wood. I think there is a difference.

In college, in Patriot League play, all the pitchers work the outside, and yes, the zone is extended to the edge of the opposite box most days. I would disagree though about the inside of the plate. If the catcher sets up there, and the pitcher hits his spot, from the black in, it usually gets called. If the catcher has to move his mitt inside during the pitch, it won't get called. My son pitches inside quite a bit, one of the few in our conference that do, and he gets his calls if he hits his spots.

Now, when we went to regional play in Austin at Texas, the umpires there had a much smaller strike zone in all dimensions. But, they had the same M.O. on inside pitches...you got the call if you hit your spot, but probably not if the catcher had to adjust.

I appreciate the theory about how the strike zone and approach has been altered to accommodate the metal bat. Thanks for taking the time to put that out there.

Excellent post Coach May. On the money. What we see today with HS and college hitters hanging over the plate is not real baseball. When you have an ump who won't give anything off the outside corner the game becomes a lot like some of the wiffle ball games we played as kids. Stand on top of the plate and try to hit it into the magnolia tree across the street.

But the thing that REALLY gets me is the inside corner call. I will take it a step further. Not only can you not get the inside call a couple of inches off the plate, frequently you can't even get it when you paint the corner. Why? I don't know. Maybe it's because the entire zone has shifted outside. Maybe it's because batters hanging over the plate creates the illusion that a pitch on the corner is off the plate. But for whatever reason the inside part of the plate no longer exists at many games.

Frankly, I think this adulterated form of baseball we play in HS and college is why many hitters fail in summer leagues and in the minors.

Now that i'm on a keyboard instead of a small portable device... Jimmy03: I would take you behind the plate every game; you and the umps that post here, I can tell by your insight and desire to be all about this game you guys do excellent work.
I enjoy visitng and working with our umps here in Kansas and we have a few that are tremendous.

In three years it will be interesting to see if the bats have changed the game.

quote:

I think what FanofGame is saying is with the old advantage of the metal bats seemingly gone from the game then everyone needs to make the needed adjustments and that includes the umpires. If that is what she is saying I totally agree with her.


. Will they now shift the plate back to its original location? How long will it take? We will see.

Thats exactly what I am talking about.

Skipper I totally agree. Just from the posts that Jimmy has made on this site I would take him not only behind the plate but anywhere he wanted to be. The same goes for PIAAump as well. It is a tough job and a very misunderstood profession. The vast majority of the people that sit there and critique them every game and moan about every call have no idea what they are even talking about. I have the utmost respect for the men in blue and I never disrespect them.

I have coached for many years and I have been tossed twice and both times I wanted them to toss me. Of course Jimmy is going to have a different take on many of the things we talk about when it comes to these topics. He is an umpire and he walks in shoes we don't walk in. There is no doubt in my mind he does it right and he strives to get it right. That is all anyone can ask for.

I haven't been tossed since '95... although in the late 80's i probably got shown the gate 3 or 4 times...
If I didn't have the coaching gig i have now I would ump... I umped a couple of years and I loved it.

FWIW. When the boys on the mound the strike zone is the size of a paper plate.

This link was posted on the Rivals College Baseball site discussing the new bats, and as they are referencing this HSBBW thread on their site, I don't think they will mind us lifting it and putting it here.

New bats

Coach May,
I'll second the part of your post on the effectiveness of upper 80s pitchers back when we used wood bats in HS. We had a 4th round draft pick on our team as well as the guy who is or was the pitching coordinator for the Phillies and we faced the likes of Mike Scott. No guns, but I don't think any of them threw 90+.

It'll be interesting to see what happens when the hitters get jammed. The new bats still aren't going to break.

quote:

The new bats still aren't going to break.

That's a plus.

If these new bats do truly act like wood things will change for the pitchers, too.

What I've seen of college baseball is a premium on junk-ballers. The good fastball pitchers were getting killed by ping-hits through the hole. Popups and groundouts in summer ball. My kid for example in one game in the summer against wood had 8 consecutive popup outs.

The gorilla hitters now cut down to size, a premium will be placed on speedy, defensive guys who can hit for average and cover the gaps defensively. The game will become far more athletic. A lot of good players at the DII level and below will now have opportunities if they can hit line drives, steal bases, throw leather.

The softer throwers and junkballers will suffer, I predict. Whereas guys sat dead-red on the outer half to get a cheap homerun or gapper, the new hitters will need to be more disciplined, and that's far easier to do against junkballers and soft throwers. Fastball pitchers will discover the good fastball now works again and a premium will be placed on those guys.

One last thing. The games will shorten and the number of TJ surgeries will drop as the junkballers fade. Colleges may need fewer pitchers as there are more complete or near complete games.

And hopefully, the pros will see who the real pitchers are.

quote:

he gorilla hitters now cut down to size, a premium will be placed on speedy, defensive guys who can hit for average and cover the gaps defensively

I think the need for some power will still be at a premium.

As an old-timer who competed with genuine baseball bats back in the day, it's interesting to hear all the speculation about what the game of baseball will be like without phony rocket-launcher baseball bats.

How will the game be transformed?

It will be ....real baseball.

fan, I agree completely. There will still be true power guys, and they will be more valuable than ever. I just think there will be more emphasis on those hitters that can hit for average and with speed. Guys who struck out a lot and hit cheap homeruns in the past will find they have only warning-track power. The smaller kids who hit line drives with plate discipline will excel.

A good swing, and bat speed will still hit the ball with authority.I think players with bad swings will suffer more, and those that lack bat spped.

I have a feeling that these rules are going to come as a shock to a lot of kids used to CF4s and other composite bats. My son is an 8th grader and almost all of the select teams (including his own) have kids using the higher end composite bats. I resisted it, instead sticking with an aluminum one for games and wood for practice since I wanted him to learn to hit the ball properly and not rely on equipment making up for talent. He has played against a lot of teams that have nothing but the higher end composite bats and many of these kids are hitting ridiculously long fly balls with these bats.

I suspect that many are going to be in for a really rude awakening when they step up to the high school level and realize that those towering fly balls that they hit now will become very routine outs in the near future. The game will return to a match where skill and execution are the primary ways to win. Kids will have to learn the art of moving a runner over, of hitting solid line drives and not relying on the bomb to bring everyone home. There will be only one or two big homerun type hitters on teams again, and the rest will have to actually execute will make the game a lot more exciting.

Personally I am looking forward to it.

Wklink,

You brought up a good point where skill and execution will become more important again. For the past couple of decades every poor play or sloppy game could be overcome with an onslaught of HRs and a barrage of extra base hits. This simply did not happen in the 60's and early 70's when I played. Now in one week in the ML you see knucklehead plays where both the Yankees and the Red Sox end up with two guys out at third on the same play. You see guys continuosly make running mistakes at the ML and college levels. All this could be overcome because anyone run was not that important when you were going to score 14, 15 or 20 runs especially in the college game. The poor play continued when these guys reached the ML's because they didn't learn this stuff in college or amateur ball. I think players who don't become fundamentally better defensively, base runners, etc. will be driven out of the game.

Bum, Fan, 3-Bagger; interesting points you bring up. I don't know if all the speculation will turn out to be true, but certainly things will change.

My son has already mentioned to me, after one week using the new bats, that he will probably need to change is approach! Most good hitters like him, have been middle-of-the-order guys that trained, practiced and played Summer ball with Wood. That being said, they used the "hot" composites and metal hybrids during their H.S. and College seasons and enjoyed the performance and distance gains! They will still hit but unless they are really "big" may get back to gap to gap, drive the ball approaches rather than trying to create loft. Those 390-400' big flies look to carry about 370' now which will be warning track distance outs (in the gaps and CF).

I remember when good MLB hitters came ups as line drive gap hitters that "learned" to hit with power at the big league level. Meaning; they learned to open early, pull to the shorter fences and create loft. This after their bodies had matured and they had learned the basics of hitting. Maybe we will begin to see more of the hitting styles of the Boggs, Mattingly, Gwinn, Grace, etc, prevail again.

Three Bagger hopefully is correct in his assertion that skill and execution will again be emphasized in the game. In the College game, Bum makes some good points. Not sure that the "Junk ball" pitcher will disappear though. Good hitters still like fast balls to hit so a nice "change of pace" soft-tosser will probably be nice to have on the Staff.

Good hitters should be more desirable than ever and glove guys will find it very competitive out there if they can't contribute offensively. I agree the game will become more athletic with speed valued more than ever.

I guess there is this "availability of good wood" issue and the ever present "lobby of the metal bat manufacturers" but wouldn't it be nice if they just went to Wood and put an end to all this nonsense.

Hitters hit...no matter what they swing. Just be a chauffer of the ball.

I think the non-players and parents have a new crutch.

I went to an exhibition game last night for a national top 10 college team. It is just as fanogame and Bum described. The true power guys were still hitting homers, and the disciplined, smaller guys were hitting line drives and gappers.

There were no cheap home runs for either team.

Not nearly as many homers as usual, but a few. The bats sound really weird when someone gets a hold of one. As the father of pitchers, I like these bats already. I'm sleeping much better.

Someone brought up on another website the thought about these bats performing this way in warmer weather now (80 - 90) - what will they perform like in February - March at 50 - 70 degree temperatures?

On the whole, I am very excited to see the game get back to true power and fundamentals on both sides of the ball. Maybe now MLB can eliminate a level in the minors and perhaps the draft can go to 30 rounds like they have kicked around. The talent should be easier to evaluate in the spring now. I know PG and others have wood bat tournaments, but there is no substitute for having 100+ AB's in a longer term competitive environment to measure a player.

I like this too!


$99.99

That is cheaper than most maple wood bats now...and will not break.

quote:

What I've seen of college baseball is a premium on junk-ballers. The good fastball pitchers were getting killed by ping-hits through the hole.

Bum,
While, from what I am reading on this and other sites, I agree the current "batch" of prototypes may impact which hitters will be successful, I am not sure I understand or agree with your observations on pitching.
In the Bay Area, we watch the Pac10, Big West, WCC and WAC and I have not seen a premium on junk-ballers. I have not seen any have sustained success. While I will concede that a junk-baller can have success one time through an order, following a hard thrower, I see good hitters almost always adjust to them the second time through, unless they are a lefty and really, really good.
Perhaps I am not correctly interpreting what you are saying on the soft-tosser distinction, I readily admit.
One article I read had some college coaches suggesting the new bats could "expose" the hitters/position players who were getting by on bats and did not have the true talent to succeed in college.
They also pointed out that we may see hitters going to a shorter type wood bat swing than longer metal bat type swings. We know the two are different and that transition could really impact some hitters.
They also pointed out that the bats currently in use are not final versions.
One thing seems clear, to me, though is that a hitter who can barrel the ball with wood will be fine with whatever "new" bat is used beginning in February.

Having watched fanofgame's son last year at Sunken Diamond, I believe he could hit with a toothpick. While HR numbers may be impacted, I doubt his other numbers will be.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
If these new bats do truly act like wood things will change for the pitchers, too.

What I've seen of college baseball is a premium on junk-ballers. The good fastball pitchers were getting killed by ping-hits through the hole.

I agree things will change for pitchers.

Never heard the junkball theory before and frankly it makes no sense. If I look at the PAC 10 for example, mostly all I see is power arms out there. Here in the east, using the ACC as an example, the premium is on power arms - not junkballers.

I am not talking about power pitchers. I am talking about good fastball pitchers, the ones that can compete with their fastball.

There will always be a premium on power pitchers, guys that can cruise 92-93 and touch mid-90's. But you are wrong if you think that's the norm in the Pac-10. The vast majority of the pitchers in the Pac-10 are mid-to-upper-80's guys about 1/2 of whom can touch 90.

I'm not talking about velocity. I'm talking about competing with your fastball. A good fastball pitcher (non-power guy) is one who competes with location, deception, and movement and sets up with his fastball. Those are the guys who have been marginalized by the metal bat in favor of guys throwing primarily college sliders and changeups, setting up their fastball. If this doesn't make sense to you, CD, well, it does to me!

Watched my son's DII play a scrimmage today. They just got the new bats this week, so this weekend is their first time to use them in game-type conditions.

I can confirm that balls not centered didn't go anywhere. The sound was like deadened "thud". Still, one kid, not a big guy but one of the best hitters, hit two shots oppo (one was a long HR and the other hit the fence). If you square it up with these bats, it will still go.

Also noticed the coach working a lot on bunts. Pretty interesting to watch some very big guys try to get a bunt down. Something tells me they haven't been asked to do that in a long time.

quote:

Having watched fanofgame's son last year at Sunken Diamond, I believe he could hit with a toothpick. While HR numbers may be impacted, I doubt his other numbers will be.

Geez I hope your right.

Thanks.

Not playing summer ball and returning from an injury, I hope he can come back strong.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Corner Dad:
Watched my son's DII play a scrimmage today. They just got the new bats this week, so this weekend is their first time to use them in game-type conditions.

I can confirm that balls not centered didn't go anywhere. The sound was like deadened "thud". Still, one kid, not a big guy but one of the best hitters, hit two shots oppo (one was a long HR and the other hit the fence). If you square it up with these bats, it will still go.

Also noticed the coach working a lot on bunts. Pretty interesting to watch some very big guys try to get a bunt down. Something tells me they haven't been asked to do that in a long time.

Sounds like the bats are doing exactly what they should be doing then. Solid contact will result in good things happening, mi****s won't get you some of the cheap hits that normally wouldn't make it far out of the infield.

I'm sure that if I was the kid that had to hit with these bats I would be upset but it may actually work out for the kids in the long run. The true hitters will be noticed for their talent and rewarded.

miss hits is on the censor list here?

did I miss something.

Did you put the two words together?