Ryan Braun... really?

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Originally posted by Matt13:

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Originally posted by TPM:
If that's how you see it, the report on their decision and why will come out in 30 days or less.

That's not how I see it, that's what happened. The collector took the specimens home instead of shipping them that day.

Call it whatever YOU want. The bottom line is Braun is forever tainted.

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Originally posted by Matt13:
The collector took the specimens home instead of shipping them that day.

As I stated, a very hard lesson learned for MLB.

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Originally posted by birdman14:
Call it whatever YOU want. The bottom line is Braun is forever tainted.

Only to the ignorant. The reality is that we will never know, and that there is no way to know.

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Originally posted by Matt13:

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Originally posted by birdman14:
Call it whatever YOU want. The bottom line is Braun is forever tainted.

Only to the ignorant. The reality is that we will never know, and that there is no way to know.

If that is the way you feel, then count me among the ignorant!

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Originally posted by birdman14:
[If that is the way you feel, then count me among the ignorant!

Don't wag your finger at me. If you want to "taint" someone off of one piece of discredited evidence, that's your prerogative, and I will maintain that opinion is ignorant.

The sample wasn't tampered with. The sample had high levels because of some medication Braun was taking for a "personal" problem.

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Originally posted by redbird5:
The sample wasn't tampered with. The sample had high levels because of some medication Braun was taking for a "personal" problem.

We don't know if it was tampered or not. The reasoning for the reversal was a disruption of the chain of custody.

I had heard the rumors that it was elevated due to herpes meds, but nothing coming out today indicates that was the rationale.

I don't think the argument is whether he tested positive or not, or if he used PED's or not. the issues is there is absolutely no way to tell because the rep took the vile home with him. Thousands of things could have happened during that time period. That is why he won. He could very well use PED's, but the fact is there is no way of knowing because even though the test was positive there is a chance it was tampered with and that is irrefutable.

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Originally posted by 0x9:
I don't think the argument is whether he tested positive or not, or if he used PED's or not. the issues is there is absolutely no way to tell because the rep took the vile home with him. Thousands of things could have happened during that time period. That is why he won. He could very well use PED's, but the fact is there is no way of knowing because even though the test was positive there is a chance it was tampered with and that is irrefutable.

I agree. Not at one time did I ever hear where it was denied, just that the truth would come out, and that is why I say this is a big blow to MLB and I suppose this will never happen again.

It's not about testing positive or not. As soon has the next test came through ok, it opened the door for a good defense.

I always liked him, a former UM player, we watched him grow up. Will be interesting to see how he does this season, and I agree, this will forever leave questions in many minds as to what really happened.

quote:

Originally posted by 0x9:
I don't think the argument is whether he tested positive or not, or if he used PED's or not. the issues is there is absolutely no way to tell because the rep took the vile home with him. Thousands of things could have happened during that time period. That is why he won. He could very well use PED's, but the fact is there is no way of knowing because even though the test was positive there is a chance it was tampered with and that is irrefutable.

That is absolutely correct.

Now Braun can look forward to 162 games of being taunted by fans about PED's and herpes.

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Originally posted by coach2709:

I agree with RedSoxFan21 in that we need to fix society first

Heres my plan for MLB, pay the players a average Joe's salary. There would still be plenty of takers, no more incentive to cheat. When you talk millions, people do crazy things to get ahead.

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Originally posted by redbird5:
The sample wasn't tampered with. The sample had high levels because of some medication Braun was taking for a "personal" problem.

You mean Viagra?

I assume MLB and the players association negotiated the testing protocol, including chain of custody and handling issues.

If the tester didn't follow the negotiated protocol, it's not a clean bust.

If I were a Brewers fan and lost my best player for 50 games based on a test on a sample that spent the night somewhere it wasn't supposed to be, I'd be pretty upset.

Rules have to be followed by both sides.

How much of the arbitrator's decision will be made public? It will be interesting to see if tonight's characterizations of the decision are accurate.

This will be on some law school's Evidence class final exam, but this we know: test one-flunked; test two-more precise, showed the presence of a synthetic banned substance.

I seriously doubt the kids of the guy that stuck the sample in his frig overnight snuck down before daylight and doctored the sample, but the "chain of custody" will get a lot of attention from MLB testers from this point forward.

Braun in my humble opinion could do himself a ton of good if he'd simply hold a press conference, explain exactly what he took and why-is that so hard to do? It's not hard if you have a plausible explanation. Anything short of that and I'll continue to believe he got caught, but got off, and will pay in the form of year long fan abuse...but in his home park, a couple tape measure shots will quiet the masses.

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Originally posted by hokieone:
Braun in my humble opinion could do himself a ton of good if he'd simply hold a press conference, explain exactly what he took and why-is that so hard to do?

It is if you didn't take anything.

Obviously he took something. IMO by getting off on a technicality, and not on results of a test, makes him guilty in my eyes. I feel he just about admitted taking something by not fighting the results, instead fighting the chain of custody.

I'm no zealot on this PED issue. Punish the offenders, let them play again. The worst punishments are the loss of respect of the fans and HOF opportunities. Braun just went to the front of the line with Bonds and MacQuire.

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Originally posted by Matt13:

quote:

Originally posted by 0x9:
I don't think the argument is whether he tested positive or not, or if he used PED's or not. the issues is there is absolutely no way to tell because the rep took the vile home with him. Thousands of things could have happened during that time period. That is why he won. He could very well use PED's, but the fact is there is no way of knowing because even though the test was positive there is a chance it was tampered with and that is irrefutable.

That is absolutely correct.

No, it's even finer than 'chain of custody'. Collectors always take specimens with them. (you think they're gonna leave it with the person they just tested?) Some drop them off at FedEx. Some call FedEx to pick them up at their house or office.

The only thing that saved this guy is that the specimen was not shipped out on the same day. And he knows it. The person who blew it is the person who's bright idea it was to test players on a Saturday, when FedEx closes early, making same-day shipment impossible.

And, yes, Victor Conte laid the whole thing out two months ago.

This isn't worth arguing over. He didn't challange the results. He's guilty. Nobody talks about Pettit or Giambi because they both said "I did it & I'm sorry". On the flip side Maquire hasn't even sniffed a possible HOF induction and he wont. Braun is now in the Bonds/ Palmero catagory.

Antzdad, I was wondering why the Saturday collection too. I assume the peds are in the system for a while, so Friday or Monday would have been OK for collection.

55mom, his attorneys were very careful with how they worded things. He denied taking PEDs. I believe he did not. They do not address whether he ever took a 'banned substance', which is different, in the MLB scheme of things. Some people suspect he tested positive for high levels of testosterone, which, in some forms, (becomes undetectable- I don't know the medical term) very quickly, perhaps in less than 24 hours. If used Saturday or Sunday it could be out of one's system by Monday.

On second thought, I guess there is no way to test players, according to procedure, on the weekend, unless specimens are taken directly to WADA after the games. And, now, the players know this.

Proceedural rules are put into place in order to protect the substantive outcome. If there was no reason that the rule violated was important it would not be a rule. Innocent untill proven guilty last time I checked. Also - attorneys attack a prosecution on the weakest link using the most winnable strategy. Just because Braun "won" on this argument does not mean there were not other arguments as well - the science - alternative explanation - etc.

Also - I have heard that Braun's results were incredibly - almost unexplainably high. This is often an indicator that something was wrong with the process. The test would me MORE credible if the results were nor SO high.

He may have taken something but it certainly has not been proven - so lets see what happens this season.

Nothing irrefutable with his results; positive test is 4:1 ratio of testerone, his was 30:1!

The glitch was FedEx was closed Friday so the "handler" took the sealed (the seal remained in tact) container home and stored them as they always do in these situations as is the protocol in all sports. It was then forwarded the following MOnday. This often occurs, had never been challenged.

The fact that the sample wasn't handled per the 18,177 word (or whatever it is) detailed document between MLB and the players union (as this procedure is not spelled out there), was the basis of the defense and the reason for dismissal.


There is no one is MLB that believes he is innocent of PED usage.

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Nothing irrefutable with his results; positive test is 4:1 ratio of testerone, his was 30:1!

My point exactly - results that high - that far out of whack - from a scientific standpoint - may be a red flag that there was something wrong with the sample or the science. I am not saying that he is innocent - just that there is food for thought here.

here is an interesting aside for what it may be worth------ BRAUN has notbeen accused of using steroids, just a ped--- we all know that over the counter supplements can have elements in them, unlisted that can screw up tests----when I went into the hospital with my strokes last yearI was asked if I took supplements--- Iwas asked the same thing when I went into therapy---Iasked why the question---the answer was simpl4e---supplements have hidden elements inthem that can give misreadings in blood test if they are not aware of them----just something to think about

They simple fact is, with any test of that type, Even a drug test for yourself at your company. Would you agree with your test sitting around for a weekend before being sent off on someone's lunch break. "Seal in tact" are we sure? How do you know for sure? Only reason I say this, I personally watched a nurse screw-up the paperwork on a drug test I was doing for work (random regular test) and she was able to pull the seal label off the container and replace on the correct on (she put it on a empty) then reseal the bag and protective seal. First thing I thought "that was too easy to get into" that makes me wonder....

Just as someone that loves a team or player will stand by them no matter what there are some out there that will do just about "anything" to get their player or team ahead. I can think of "Why me" and the pipe to the knee on ice skating and a lot more live on TV. Whats to say there hasn't been some behind the curtain?

Too many screw-ups on this one. He was found "not guilty" so let the man play. Test regularly and properly and if shows again might have more to stand on.

IMO it’s only right to allow Braun to play and lift the suspension. The protocol is in place for a reason, to protect the player and MLB from any tampering.

However unfortunately for Braun, he will be guilty in the court of public opinion. It is just hard to believe that an athlete making millions of dollars doesn’t find out what is in the stuff he is buying over the counter to ensure that he is not going to fail a drug test. So the excuse of “maybe it was a just an over the counter supplement that he did not know would cause him fail the drug test” doesn’t work for me. It is his responsibility to know that and find out. Baseball and the players themselves have caused the mistrust between fan and player when it comes to this issue.

Innocent until proven guilty in court, yes. That is why he should and will be allowed to play. Innocent in a fans mind, my mind, no way.

I know one of his teammates who was shocked and disbelieving of the test, before talking to Ryan. He immediately and very publicly defended him. He has basically lived with Braun for the last two years. If he had any doubts, he would have just not said one thing.

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Originally posted by shortnquick:
IMO it’s only right to allow Braun to play and lift the suspension.

I agree.

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Originally posted by Dad04:
I know one of his teammates who was shocked and disbelieving of the test, before talking to Ryan. He immediately and very publicly defended him. He has basically lived with Braun for the last two years. If he had any doubts, he would have just not said one thing.

Really? Because the teammate and roomy said so...

quote:

Originally posted by shortnquick:

quote:

Originally posted by Dad04:
I know one of his teammates who was shocked and disbelieving of the test, before talking to Ryan. He immediately and very publicly defended him. He has basically lived with Braun for the last two years. If he had any doubts, he would have just not said one thing.

Really? Because the teammate and roomy said so...

Knowing his teammate? yep

quote:

Originally posted by shortnquick:
IMO it’s only right to allow Braun to play and lift the suspension. The protocol is in place for a reason, to protect the player and MLB from any tampering.

However unfortunately for Braun, he will be guilty in the court of public opinion. It is just hard to believe that an athlete making millions of dollars doesn’t find out what is in the stuff he is buying over the counter to ensure that he is not going to fail a drug test. So the excuse of “maybe it was a just an over the counter supplement that he did not know would cause him fail the drug test” doesn’t work for me. It is his responsibility to know that and find out. Baseball and the players themselves have caused the mistrust between fan and player when it comes to this issue.

Innocent until proven guilty in court, yes. That is why he should and will be allowed to play. Innocent in a fans mind, my mind, no way.

They make us VERY, very aware that we cannot take any supplement that is not "NSF" certified. I've been in the Padres system since 10' and they have informed us with an initial meeting, making sure everyone understood their responsibilities and remind us several times throughout the year. That may be specific to our organization, but as a player they let you know that everything you put in your body is your responsibility, no excuses.

I'm not commenting because I think he is guilty/innocent, just letting you know are correct in saying that the "I don't know what I took" excuse doesn't work anymore.

quote:

Originally posted by shortnquick:
IMO it’s only right to allow Braun to play and lift the suspension. The protocol is in place for a reason, to protect the player and MLB from any tampering.

However unfortunately for Braun, he will be guilty in the court of public opinion. It is just hard to believe that an athlete making millions of dollars doesn’t find out what is in the stuff he is buying over the counter to ensure that he is not going to fail a drug test. So the excuse of “maybe it was a just an over the counter supplement that he did not know would cause him fail the drug test” doesn’t work for me. It is his responsibility to know that and find out. Baseball and the players themselves have caused the mistrust between fan and player when it comes to this issue.

Innocent until proven guilty in court, yes. That is why he should and will be allowed to play. Innocent in a fans mind, my mind, no way.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I can't find any reference from Braun about not knowing what he was putting in his body. All I can find is him declaring his "complete innocence".

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Originally posted by TRhit:
here is an interesting aside for what it may be worth------ BRAUN has notbeen accused of using steroids, just a ped--- we all know that over the counter supplements can have elements in them, unlisted that can screw up tests----when I went into the hospital with my strokes last yearI was asked if I took supplements--- Iwas asked the same thing when I went into therapy---Iasked why the question---the answer was simpl4e---supplements have hidden elements inthem that can give misreadings in blood test if they are not aware of them----just something to think about

we aren't talking about an ingredient in a "supplement" here that caused a positive test. It was synthetic "Testosterone!"

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
here is an interesting aside for what it may be worth------ BRAUN has notbeen accused of using steroids, just a ped--- we all know that over the counter supplements can have elements in them, unlisted that can screw up tests----when I went into the hospital with my strokes last yearI was asked if I took supplements--- Iwas asked the same thing when I went into therapy---Iasked why the question---the answer was simpl4e---supplements have hidden elements inthem that can give misreadings in blood test if they are not aware of them----just something to think about

It was in reference to what TR posted. It has been a usual excuse to make for a player or by a player. Just wanted to give my thoughts on why I don't believe it would have been an over the counter supplement type of mistake.

Understood...thanks.

This whole case smells wrong.

Never tested positive before or after this one test.

Test had "super high levels of Testosterone".
(if it is tampered with, how do you get the ratios just right, must be hard not to overload the sample)

Sample was not handled according to the rules.

Info is leaked..... Hmmmmm?

It's starting to smell like somebody didn't want him to play.... do you suppose people actually make wagers on how teams finish?
I'd start taking a look at the lab guy's bank accounts.

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Originally posted by Ninthmanout:
This whole case smells wrong.

Never tested positive before or after this one test.

Test had "super high levels of Testosterone".
(if it is tampered with, how do you get the ratios just right, must be hard not to overload the sample)

Sample was not handled according to the rules.

Info is leaked..... Hmmmmm?

It's starting to smell like somebody didn't want him to play.... do you suppose people actually make wagers on how teams finish?
I'd start taking a look at the lab guy's bank accounts.

Conspiracy? You Think?

As long as we are creating conspiracies how about Braun who plays for the Brewers, who is partly owned by Bud Selig (his daughter), Selig was born and lived in Milwaukee, Selig brought the Brewers to Milwaukee, has a statue of him outside Miller Park, who is the Commissioner of MLB, all acounts still a Brewers fan and Braun’s test is taken on a day where even a positive result will end up with Braun playing because of delivery.

Let’s not start the Hmmmmmmms’ …..you will lose that nonsensical conspiracy battle.

From Yahoo Sports.
“Make no mistake: This was a technicality. It was a loophole. Most of all, it was brilliant lawyering by Braun’s attorneys. Hundreds of tests had been handled in exactly the same manner in baseball and never before had the players’ union protested their accuracy. Sources from MLB and the union told Yahoo! Sports the chain-of-custody section of the joint-drug agreement is likely to be rewritten to ensure that a defense similar to Braun’s would have no legs. Because even some inside baseball who should be on Braun’s side – players, agents and other officials – see his prevailing as a Pyrrhic victory.

“This,” one baseball official said, “is like a criminal getting off because he wasn’t read his Miranda rights.””

And Braun is saying this is the “first step in clearing his good name”.

LMAO!

Like SF who bought into Barry Bond's shtick, and maybe in Milwaukee they might buy into Braun’s, but the rest of the baseball world knows otherwise.

WHat i am not understanding after watching everything today on ESPN and OTL and Braun's speech is has he said that he actually never shot test? i know hes saying he wants a clear name. but is he accusing the distributor or contaminating it? I haven't heard that yet. so what is his thought process on how the level of test got so high? nothing has been said about any of that. he said the process worked in clearing his name. But the process only worked in saying he wasn't guilty because of an error is the system, not because he didn't actually use test....