I guess Ramirez and Braun can play catch and throw BP to each other while the rest of the league is playing the first 50 games.
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Results were in a month before he was awarded MVP. He has been in arbitration fighting the results.
The story line so far doesn't tell us what it is actually or is a bit vague on what actaully occured, other than higher levels of testosterone that is found outside of the body.
Not sure if it was a pre workout formula or actual hard core, if that the case they may lift the award title.
Most likely he isn't the only player to take something to enhance his performance.
The story line so far doesn't tell us what it is actually or is a bit vague on what actaully occured, other than higher levels of testosterone that is found outside of the body.
Not sure if it was a pre workout formula or actual hard core, if that the case they may lift the award title.
Most likely he isn't the only player to take something to enhance his performance.
DOES IT REALLYMATTER ?
When are these guys going to learn. Now he'll have the scarlet letter on his head for the rest of his career.
It might also be great if they took the MVP away since he was obviously using this season. Maybe that would wake these guys up. Give it to Kemp as long as he wasn't positive.
quote:Originally posted by Three Bagger:
It might also be great if they took the MVP away since he was obviously using this season. Maybe that would wake these guys up. Give it to Kemp as long as he wasn't positive.
They are going to continue to cheat as long as they think its worth the risk. If MLB was really interested in putting this issue to bed once and for all they would ban these players for the first offense for life. Period.
Sounds pretty harsh doesn't it? Its the only way this is ever going to be stopped.
Sounds pretty harsh doesn't it? Its the only way this is ever going to be stopped.
MVP...gone.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
Results were in a month before he was awarded MVP. He has been in arbitration fighting the results.
The story line so far doesn't tell us what it is actually or is a bit vague on what actaully occured, other than higher levels of testosterone that is found outside of the body.
Not sure if it was a pre workout formula or actual hard core, if that the case they may lift the award title.
Most likely he isn't the only player to take something to enhance his performance.
There is a common preworkout ingredient (1,3 dimethylamylalanine/DMAA, often referred to as a Geranium extract) that can show up as an amphetamine on a cheap drug test. I doubt the MLB would use such a cheap test - this isn't a banned ingredient in the MLB I don't think though, so if he claimed that was the reason for a positive they'd be able to test it and he'd be okay.
There aren't any other preworkout type products that would cause problems on an MLB test - there are many that may on an NCAA test though. If you test with an absurdly high amount of caffeine in NCAA, for instance, that would be a violation.
My money is on steroids/prohormones/post cycle therapy substance, though.
More of the same... 
GED10DaD
quote:Originally posted by Three Bagger:
When are these guys going to learn. Now he'll have the scarlet letter on his head for the rest of his career.
100m I'd do it. And take the Clinton defense
quote:DOES IT REALLYMATTER ?
TRhit
Knowing you, I know you're actually serious with this post.
The answer, of course, is yes, it matters quite a bit.
LLoyd Braun?
In a word....disappointing. To see a young talented super star get caught up in this is disappointing. I'm going to keep an open mind that he is innocent until proven guilty. However, if he's guilty, he should get max penalty allowed and made and example for the rest of MLB.
I think we should all wait and see what the results of arbitration appeal are.Besides a pre workout substance, there are a number of items that could cause false positives. One study has shown that in Europe athletes were failing tests at a ridiculous pace. Found out that meat they were eating had concentrations of injected hormones that triggered false positive. Not saying it isnt true that he used, but lets not all get hysterical.
It is difficult today, given the recent history, to give an athlete the benefit of the doubt. Reported, it was a synthetic form of testosterene that he tested positive for.
As long as the MLB "system" allows the return/reward to far outweigh the risk/penalty, athletes will continue to use PED's.
Why don't all contracts contain "a clause" that VOIDs their contract and puts them out of the sport for no less than one year without pay? I know the Union stance. But I, if I were a player, would welcome insurances that everyone is competing fairly for my spot on the roster.
The Team, could after the suspension, resign the player for substantially less or trade them. Perhaps that would make them think twice?
As long as the MLB "system" allows the return/reward to far outweigh the risk/penalty, athletes will continue to use PED's.
Why don't all contracts contain "a clause" that VOIDs their contract and puts them out of the sport for no less than one year without pay? I know the Union stance. But I, if I were a player, would welcome insurances that everyone is competing fairly for my spot on the roster.
The Team, could after the suspension, resign the player for substantially less or trade them. Perhaps that would make them think twice?
quote:Originally posted by Three Bagger:
It might also be great if they took the MVP away since he was obviously using this season. Maybe that would wake these guys up. Give it to Kemp as long as he wasn't positive.
They didn't take away Arod's MVP and he has since admitted to taking steroids in the year he won
I just don't get it
The MLB is basically saying take the chance, the gain of awards and contracts far out weight the risk. The fans don't care, many websters don't
quote:Originally posted by Prime9:
It is difficult today, given the recent history, to give an athlete the benefit of the doubt. Reported, it was a synthetic form of testosterene that he tested positive for.
As long as the MLB "system" allows the return/reward to far outweigh the risk/penalty, athletes will continue to use PED's.
Why don't all contracts contain "a clause" that VOIDs their contract and puts them out of the sport for no less than one year without pay? I know the Union stance. But I, if I were a player, would welcome insurances that everyone is competing fairly for my spot on the roster.
The Team, could after the suspension, resign the player for substantially less or trade them. Perhaps that would make them think twice?
I too don't understand why the union isn't trying to protect the clean player's job by providing a level playing field.. Maybe because the players using have larger contracts?
Arbritration comes to mind.
This case is particularly interesting to me...
He just doesn't have the physical attributes of the usual suspects.
He immediately claimed innocence.
MLB is confident that their testing program, particularly with his generation, is far more effective and all-encompassing.
Very few players have reached MLB and been caught in recent years.
Probably naive, but I'm wait-and-see on this one.
He just doesn't have the physical attributes of the usual suspects.
He immediately claimed innocence.
MLB is confident that their testing program, particularly with his generation, is far more effective and all-encompassing.
Very few players have reached MLB and been caught in recent years.
Probably naive, but I'm wait-and-see on this one.
Being the resident cynic...It's all political..and makes perfect sense..
...the current level of enforcement:
...Keeps the honest players honest and lets the risk takers risk (both happy)..
...gives the players enough flexibility and freedom to have the impression that the Union is working hard for them...saving them from the iron hand of ownership...(players happy, union happy)...
...catches enough cheaters to give the impression to the casual fan and the PR that the league is tough on enforcement, that the game is clean...(unions happy, owners happy, casual fan's happy)...
IF they really wanted to stop it they could but that would make everyone unhappy including the fan, as they would have the impression that the game is dirty, right now it could appear that it is just a few outliers, that is an impression that works the bst for all parties involved. No one is interested or benefits directly from more stern measures.
It's like a high school I am aware of where they give a days notice about drug searches...only the realy stupid get get caught and only periodically...the impression is that the school is low drug, that they do enforce, that they do catch...everbody wins. They do unannounced searches then they catch more people and look more dirty which creates problems for everyone.
44
...the current level of enforcement:
...Keeps the honest players honest and lets the risk takers risk (both happy)..
...gives the players enough flexibility and freedom to have the impression that the Union is working hard for them...saving them from the iron hand of ownership...(players happy, union happy)...
...catches enough cheaters to give the impression to the casual fan and the PR that the league is tough on enforcement, that the game is clean...(unions happy, owners happy, casual fan's happy)...
IF they really wanted to stop it they could but that would make everyone unhappy including the fan, as they would have the impression that the game is dirty, right now it could appear that it is just a few outliers, that is an impression that works the bst for all parties involved. No one is interested or benefits directly from more stern measures.
It's like a high school I am aware of where they give a days notice about drug searches...only the realy stupid get get caught and only periodically...the impression is that the school is low drug, that they do enforce, that they do catch...everbody wins. They do unannounced searches then they catch more people and look more dirty which creates problems for everyone.
44
quote:Originally posted by oldmanmoses:
I think we should all wait and see what the results of arbitration appeal are.Besides a pre workout substance, there are a number of items that could cause false positives. One study has shown that in Europe athletes were failing tests at a ridiculous pace. Found out that meat they were eating had concentrations of injected hormones that triggered false positive. Not saying it isnt true that he used, but lets not all get hysterical.
Let's not be naive. I know that I often am at times.
The above may sound like a good theory, but in reality Braun would have to prove that he took a substance unknowingly, and we all know that is very, very difficult to prove. The MLB has never gone back on a suspension and if they would it would go against everything they have worked towards cleaning up the sport. It would be a sham.
Reality is folks that it's done, players take substances in short cycles, most who do, begin after a random test, and in the off season, anyone in the organization on the 40 man roster is not subject to random testing. I am going to say most likely those that will cheat have found a way to do it. Perhaps Braun was caught off guard, his second test was negative which would be no surprise if he cycled correctly. Braun had a great first season followed by two meh seasons, this season a breakout one as well as contract season, IMO, just doesn't look good for him at this time.
What bothers me more than anything is that when he accepted his award, he knew he had a failed test.
The award is not given from MLB so no one will ask for it back, if he gave it up, he would be saying that he is guilty.
Doing a little more reading, the claim right now is that he exceeded test:epitest ratio of 4:1. The natural ratio is almost always about 1:1. Regardless of how high one's test is, epitest should be about the same. The only way to raise that ratio significantly is to juice.
A spiked supplement can't do it to such a high extent, either. Only a legitimate, potent banned substance could cause a failed test. False positives can happen for a variety of reasons, but there is no incidental cause for a >4:1 ratio. That only comes from consistent ingestion/injection of a prohormone/steroid. The most consistent users of those substances would only have that high of test for about 4 out of every 12-16 weeks. If he was concerned for his health, he may have only ran one cycle, ever, or maybe one per year or so. He would, of course, be able to have clear tests for as long as he wants afterwards in that case.
A spiked supplement can't do it to such a high extent, either. Only a legitimate, potent banned substance could cause a failed test. False positives can happen for a variety of reasons, but there is no incidental cause for a >4:1 ratio. That only comes from consistent ingestion/injection of a prohormone/steroid. The most consistent users of those substances would only have that high of test for about 4 out of every 12-16 weeks. If he was concerned for his health, he may have only ran one cycle, ever, or maybe one per year or so. He would, of course, be able to have clear tests for as long as he wants afterwards in that case.
.
It is very common for the initial public statements from attorneys representing clients who have been caught in obviously compromising situations to express confidence that their clients will be exonerated when all the facts are known.
I'm still waiting for one of these attorneys to embrace a full airing of the facts. It never happens.
This is the talking point of last resort for those who have no explanation and whose defense will consist of attempting to suppress incriminating evidence and examining the chain-of-custody forms with a microscope in hopes of finding that someone initialed in the wrong block.
I've been around drug testing at work for 30 years. Unless Braun presents a compelling reason to doubt the validity of this test, I will maintain my presumption of its accuracy--even if his lawyers squeeze through some loophole and avoid the suspension.
As far as the award, MLB doesn't control it. That's up to the writers, and I don't blame them for not wanting to get into the business of re-considering their past awards. Once they started, it would never end.
It is very common for the initial public statements from attorneys representing clients who have been caught in obviously compromising situations to express confidence that their clients will be exonerated when all the facts are known.
I'm still waiting for one of these attorneys to embrace a full airing of the facts. It never happens.
This is the talking point of last resort for those who have no explanation and whose defense will consist of attempting to suppress incriminating evidence and examining the chain-of-custody forms with a microscope in hopes of finding that someone initialed in the wrong block.
I've been around drug testing at work for 30 years. Unless Braun presents a compelling reason to doubt the validity of this test, I will maintain my presumption of its accuracy--even if his lawyers squeeze through some loophole and avoid the suspension.
As far as the award, MLB doesn't control it. That's up to the writers, and I don't blame them for not wanting to get into the business of re-considering their past awards. Once they started, it would never end.
quote:Originally posted by Swampboy:
As far as the award, MLB doesn't control it. That's up to the writers, and I don't blame them for not wanting to get into the business of re-considering their past awards. Once they started, it would never end.
However, isn't it many of the writers who will blanketly not vote for steroid era players for the HOF regardless of any truth to the suspicions?
Biggerpapi,
Please, please, please don't try to make me defend the wisdom, consistency, or integrity of journalists. I couldn't do it.
I was just explaining as a practical matter why they can't open this can of worms.
Please, please, please don't try to make me defend the wisdom, consistency, or integrity of journalists. I couldn't do it.
I was just explaining as a practical matter why they can't open this can of worms.
I am going to pass judgment here based on the assumption he is guilty. Whether he is or not will be determined in the near future and if he is innocent, then this statement will not hold water. Nonetheless, I want to share it.
If Ryan Braun is guilty and serves the 50 game suspension for taking a PED, the game of baseball in the future is in trouble. In the past decade MLB has been exploited as the forerunner in PED prevalence in the sport, and has since attempted to exonerate themselves from such actions. The "cleaning house" if you will has been moderately successful, as abnormally muscular athletes are no longer tarnishing record books. But of course, the system isn't perfect.
I have been a detractor of Bud Selig for years. In the past, I have literally said the words "that idiot is ruining the game of baseball." But in this particular case, I think Selig is doing everything in his power to make the game better. It is the player's union, the collective group of members that is put forth to assist the athletes, whether in question or not, that is ruining the game of baseball. My mother is the president of the union she belongs to with her job. If someone that she represents breaks the law while at work that in any way has an adverse reaction to how they perform their duty, she has very little opposition to the prosecution. Rules are put in place for a reason and they are to be abided by. Why, in my mother's case, should she defend an employee that is partaking in these actions when 95% of the employees are model citizens? The same concept should apply for MLB.
Secondly, there have been problems surrounding the other two major American sports venues as well, the NBA and the NFL. The NFL has had a string of history involving players breaking the law off the field and has had a string of financial circumstances that have become harmful to the fans of the game (i.e. the lockout). The NBA also had a lockout, and now has a mockery of a CBA in which the owners have the monopoly power to veto a perfectly legal trade. The NBA has also had a problem with the actions of the athletes involved, and that has unfortunately begun to trickle down to the amateur level as well (see: Xavier-Cincinnati basketball last night, I am especially disappointed in this event because the player from Cincinnati who originally made the taunting comments was a high school teammate of mine).
The main point in my argument above is not that "everyone has problems", but it is the exact opposite. In both the NBA and the NFL, there is no proof that players are deliberately cheating the game. Are there players that are? Maybe, but we don't know about it. Ryan Braun won the National League MVP Award this year. What would happen if Tom Brady, last year's NFL MVP, was outed for taking PEDs? Or Aaron Rodgers, or Drew Brees? What if Derrick Rose, last year's NBA MVP, or Kobe Bryant, or Lebron James were caught taking PEDs?
Ryan Braun being caught taking PEDs hurts the game a lot. It doesn't hurt the game because of fans, because let's face it, people will still come watch the game. They did when Mark McGwire was hitting mammoth home runs, when Barry Bonds was setting records, when A-Rod signed his enormous Rangers contract. They will continue to watch the game. It doesn't hurt the game because of the players, because they will continue to get paid millions and millions of dollars to play the game. The average MLB salary has risen exponentially for several years and will continue to do so. Braun himself will be worth over $100 million when his contract is up. The game will be hurt because of the future. For years now Albert Pujols has been under scrutiny because people feel as though he is probably on steroids? Why? He's never tested positive. But people assume that because the other great hitters before him were on steroids, so he "has to be". Now that Braun, one of the most prolific offensive performers in the game, tested positive, that speculation will continue on into the future at an event more potent rate. And that is an awful accusation to be had for the truly clean player who is successful because of their talent and hard work.
The biggest reason that this hurts the game of baseball is the young fans/players who have dreams and aspirations of one day playing Major League Baseball. Ryan Braun is looked up to as a hero by millions of young people around the world and by default, these young people model themselves around him. I wince when I say that I am glad my idol growing up was Derek Jeter because he is, in my opinion, what a baseball player should be like. What if I idolized Manny Ramirez or Rafael Palmeiro or Jose Canseco? My perception of their image might have been highly tainted based on their irresponsible actions. I used to mimic Jeter's batting stance and try to do his signature jump throw from the hole. Through high school I requested #2 on every team I played on because Derek wore #2. If I found out Derek took PEDs, who knows if I thought it would be OK to try something like that?
If Ryan Braun is proven to be guilty of this offense, it is a disgrace to the game of baseball going into the future. Players like that are cheating the game, and as a young man who loves baseball, I am very saddened and angered by those players that cheat the game.
If Ryan Braun is guilty and serves the 50 game suspension for taking a PED, the game of baseball in the future is in trouble. In the past decade MLB has been exploited as the forerunner in PED prevalence in the sport, and has since attempted to exonerate themselves from such actions. The "cleaning house" if you will has been moderately successful, as abnormally muscular athletes are no longer tarnishing record books. But of course, the system isn't perfect.
I have been a detractor of Bud Selig for years. In the past, I have literally said the words "that idiot is ruining the game of baseball." But in this particular case, I think Selig is doing everything in his power to make the game better. It is the player's union, the collective group of members that is put forth to assist the athletes, whether in question or not, that is ruining the game of baseball. My mother is the president of the union she belongs to with her job. If someone that she represents breaks the law while at work that in any way has an adverse reaction to how they perform their duty, she has very little opposition to the prosecution. Rules are put in place for a reason and they are to be abided by. Why, in my mother's case, should she defend an employee that is partaking in these actions when 95% of the employees are model citizens? The same concept should apply for MLB.
Secondly, there have been problems surrounding the other two major American sports venues as well, the NBA and the NFL. The NFL has had a string of history involving players breaking the law off the field and has had a string of financial circumstances that have become harmful to the fans of the game (i.e. the lockout). The NBA also had a lockout, and now has a mockery of a CBA in which the owners have the monopoly power to veto a perfectly legal trade. The NBA has also had a problem with the actions of the athletes involved, and that has unfortunately begun to trickle down to the amateur level as well (see: Xavier-Cincinnati basketball last night, I am especially disappointed in this event because the player from Cincinnati who originally made the taunting comments was a high school teammate of mine).
The main point in my argument above is not that "everyone has problems", but it is the exact opposite. In both the NBA and the NFL, there is no proof that players are deliberately cheating the game. Are there players that are? Maybe, but we don't know about it. Ryan Braun won the National League MVP Award this year. What would happen if Tom Brady, last year's NFL MVP, was outed for taking PEDs? Or Aaron Rodgers, or Drew Brees? What if Derrick Rose, last year's NBA MVP, or Kobe Bryant, or Lebron James were caught taking PEDs?
Ryan Braun being caught taking PEDs hurts the game a lot. It doesn't hurt the game because of fans, because let's face it, people will still come watch the game. They did when Mark McGwire was hitting mammoth home runs, when Barry Bonds was setting records, when A-Rod signed his enormous Rangers contract. They will continue to watch the game. It doesn't hurt the game because of the players, because they will continue to get paid millions and millions of dollars to play the game. The average MLB salary has risen exponentially for several years and will continue to do so. Braun himself will be worth over $100 million when his contract is up. The game will be hurt because of the future. For years now Albert Pujols has been under scrutiny because people feel as though he is probably on steroids? Why? He's never tested positive. But people assume that because the other great hitters before him were on steroids, so he "has to be". Now that Braun, one of the most prolific offensive performers in the game, tested positive, that speculation will continue on into the future at an event more potent rate. And that is an awful accusation to be had for the truly clean player who is successful because of their talent and hard work.
The biggest reason that this hurts the game of baseball is the young fans/players who have dreams and aspirations of one day playing Major League Baseball. Ryan Braun is looked up to as a hero by millions of young people around the world and by default, these young people model themselves around him. I wince when I say that I am glad my idol growing up was Derek Jeter because he is, in my opinion, what a baseball player should be like. What if I idolized Manny Ramirez or Rafael Palmeiro or Jose Canseco? My perception of their image might have been highly tainted based on their irresponsible actions. I used to mimic Jeter's batting stance and try to do his signature jump throw from the hole. Through high school I requested #2 on every team I played on because Derek wore #2. If I found out Derek took PEDs, who knows if I thought it would be OK to try something like that?
If Ryan Braun is proven to be guilty of this offense, it is a disgrace to the game of baseball going into the future. Players like that are cheating the game, and as a young man who loves baseball, I am very saddened and angered by those players that cheat the game.
Oh, and one more point to back up a few comments previous in this thread: http://bleacherreport.com/arti...-hell-keep-his-money
quote:Originally posted by JPontiac:
Doing a little more reading, the claim right now is that he exceeded test:epitest ratio of 4:1. The natural ratio is almost always about 1:1. Regardless of how high one's test is, epitest should be about the same. The only way to raise that ratio significantly is to juice.
A spiked supplement can't do it to such a high extent, either. Only a legitimate, potent banned substance could cause a failed test. False positives can happen for a variety of reasons, but there is no incidental cause for a >4:1 ratio. That only comes from consistent ingestion/injection of a prohormone/steroid. The most consistent users of those substances would only have that high of test for about 4 out of every 12-16 weeks. If he was concerned for his health, he may have only ran one cycle, ever, or maybe one per year or so. He would, of course, be able to have clear tests for as long as he wants afterwards in that case.
I think your main point is that Braun must have been using exogenous testosterone. I also think that.
However, some of the detail in the above quote is incorrect. Most people (male or female) do have a test/epi ratio near 1. But lots of people don't, and that's why the test/epi ratio is only used to flag possible users. Once a urine sample is found which exceeds 4:1, then an additional more expensive analysis is run. This analysis uses gas chromatography and isotope ratio mass spectrometry, and compares the carbon isotope ratios of testosterone metabolites to other non-testosterone derived metabolites. This is a much more sensitive test, and it is generally believed that if the testing protocol used this more expensive analysis on every urine sample, we'd see considerably more positives, because it is relatively easy to manipulate a person's test/epi ratio. One well-known way is to use fertility drugs--but those are also screened for these days. Manny Ramirez failed both for exogenous testosterone and for the fertiity drug HCG.
I don't think Selig is doing all he can. I saw a quote by him the other day and he said the modern player (from Ryan Howard to Ryan Braun) was clean 
The owners are all multi-millionaires and billionaires with taxpayer subsidized stadiums. They can afford to run the more elaborate tests and afford to run them far more frequently
The game of baseball will not suffer one iota without the likes of Ryan Braun and other juiced players. People will still pay to watch legitimate "clean" guys play the game. They can still hit them over 400 feet without the juice. To hell with Braun and others of his ilk. They should be banned for life imho.
The owners are all multi-millionaires and billionaires with taxpayer subsidized stadiums. They can afford to run the more elaborate tests and afford to run them far more frequently
I agree CD.
quote:Originally posted by Swampboy:
I've been around drug testing at work for 30 years. Unless Braun presents a compelling reason to doubt the validity of this test, I will maintain my presumption of its accuracy--even if his lawyers squeeze through some loophole and avoid the suspension.
I've been around drug testing at work for over 20 years. How about some of the excuses guys that test hot come up with?
"We were on our way to the bingo parlor..."
According to a Brewers teammate, he immediately appealed the result and took a second test, which he passed.
If his lawyer is the same nitwit that Sandusky has, he's from the firm of Moe, Larry, and Curly...
quote:Originally posted by Coach_May:
They are going to continue to cheat as long as they think its worth the risk. If MLB was really interested in putting this issue to bed once and for all they would ban these players for the first offense for life. Period.
Sounds pretty harsh doesn't it? Its the only way this is ever going to be stopped.
Apparently so. Seems like the issue will never end. Laws that are continued to be broken, must make some kind of adjustments to themselves one would think. CD makes a good point as well. If Bud Selig was really doing all he could with this issue, this problem would not be coming up every other month.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
Let's not be naive. I know that I often am at times.
..... Braun had a great first season followed by two meh seasons, this season a breakout one as well as contract season, IMO, just doesn't look good for him at this time.
Mahna Mahna
http://video.google.com/videop...4114397127563559102#
What Mahan Manah are you beotching about now?
Braun had a NL ROY his first year in the big leagues, while his 2nd, 3rd, and 4th big league seasons included five All Stars, four Silver Slugger Awards and four Top 20 MVP. Must be in la-la land to state "great first season followed by two meh seasons.......
It's all well and good to find the taking of PEDS to be distasteful and an affront to baseball. Of course, it is. But let's face it folks, baseball (and other sports) simply reflect our society.
There are good people who try to be ethical at all times and there are people who have been raised to take every edge they can get away with to reach their definition of 'success'.
The problem isn't that of having a role model player who gets caught. The problem is in thinking any early 20 year old person in such a money laden atmosphere can be a true role model. True role models need to first stand the test of time, or be in a truly giving field such as the military or public service. They don't just appear on the next edition of Sport Center.
Our focus should be on fixing society, not fixing baseball.
There are good people who try to be ethical at all times and there are people who have been raised to take every edge they can get away with to reach their definition of 'success'.
The problem isn't that of having a role model player who gets caught. The problem is in thinking any early 20 year old person in such a money laden atmosphere can be a true role model. True role models need to first stand the test of time, or be in a truly giving field such as the military or public service. They don't just appear on the next edition of Sport Center.
Our focus should be on fixing society, not fixing baseball.
quote:However, some of the detail in the above quote is incorrect. Most people (male or female) do have a test/epi ratio near 1. But lots of people don't, and that's why the test/epi ratio is only used to flag possible users. Once a urine sample is found which exceeds 4:1, then an additional more expensive analysis is run. This analysis uses gas chromatography and isotope ratio mass spectrometry, and compares the carbon isotope ratios of testosterone metabolites to other non-testosterone derived metabolites. This is a much more sensitive test, and it is generally believed that if the testing protocol used this more expensive analysis on every urine sample, we'd see considerably more positives, because it is relatively easy to manipulate a person's test/epi ratio. One well-known way is to use fertility drugs--but those are also screened for these days. Manny Ramirez failed both for exogenous testosterone and for the fertiity drug HCG.
You know I read this it really saddened me because A) I don't understand one bit of it and B) this is truly where we are in baseball (and other sports). I know baseball has a long history with some sort of PED going back to the caffeine pills and what not. But this is just a sad, sad new leve. People have to get into this much scientific detail in order to play baseball with a slight edge.
Baseball banishes Pete Rose for betting on games because he jeopardized the intergrity of the game. Yet PED users get game suspensions instead. Isn't this jeopardizing the integrity of the game as well?
The really sad part is drug testing is always going to be reactionary instead of proactive. You don't know what to test for until they create it so you can now test for it.
I agree with RedSoxFan21 in that we need to fix society first
quote:Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:quote:Originally posted by JPontiac:
Doing a little more reading, the claim right now is that he exceeded test:epitest ratio of 4:1. The natural ratio is almost always about 1:1. Regardless of how high one's test is, epitest should be about the same. The only way to raise that ratio significantly is to juice.
A spiked supplement can't do it to such a high extent, either. Only a legitimate, potent banned substance could cause a failed test. False positives can happen for a variety of reasons, but there is no incidental cause for a >4:1 ratio. That only comes from consistent ingestion/injection of a prohormone/steroid. The most consistent users of those substances would only have that high of test for about 4 out of every 12-16 weeks. If he was concerned for his health, he may have only ran one cycle, ever, or maybe one per year or so. He would, of course, be able to have clear tests for as long as he wants afterwards in that case.
I think your main point is that Braun must have been using exogenous testosterone. I also think that.
However, some of the detail in the above quote is incorrect. Most people (male or female) do have a test/epi ratio near 1. But lots of people don't, and that's why the test/epi ratio is only used to flag possible users. Once a urine sample is found which exceeds 4:1, then an additional more expensive analysis is run. This analysis uses gas chromatography and isotope ratio mass spectrometry, and compares the carbon isotope ratios of testosterone metabolites to other non-testosterone derived metabolites. This is a much more sensitive test, and it is generally believed that if the testing protocol used this more expensive analysis on every urine sample, we'd see considerably more positives, because it is relatively easy to manipulate a person's test/epi ratio. One well-known way is to use fertility drugs--but those are also screened for these days. Manny Ramirez failed both for exogenous testosterone and for the fertiity drug HCG.
You're right on with the details, they seem to allow for the possibility of a naturally "off" ratio. However, it is my impression that it is physiologically unheard of to have that 4:1 ratio. Luckily, we eliminate the "freak of nature" defense with the WADA tests. It is also true that it's possible to elevate test through exogenous means and do the same with epitest, but again like you said that's getting harder to do as Manny found out.