Pete Rose and the gambling issue gets at whether the games are fixed. PED's are a competitive advantage that theoretically both teams can avail themselves of thereby maintaining a competive game.
IMO that is why gambling is and ought to be the automatic death penalty (ie banned for life). If the games are fixed then nothing else matters.
PED's are one of those things that I view as a dog chasing it's tail. Every once and a while he might catch it but mostly you turn in a circle getting nowhere until you fall down dizzy. The testing gets better so the way's to use and mask gets better. As long as there are $20mm contracts to be had people will cheat. In baseball once the ink is on the page you get paid almost no matter what.
If you want the drugs out of the game then putting PED's on par with gambling is the best way there. Contracts get voided and bonus's can be recovered. In other words make it so you can bankrupt players that cheat. Some of these guys might care about how they stack up in the history of the game but most worry about the stack of cash first.
From Sports Illustrated:
quote:According to drug testing experts, though, passing a subsequent test is not, in and of itself, a valid defense and actually fits the pattern of some previous doping cases. US Anti-Doping Agency CEO Travis Tygart has no specific knowledge of the Braun case, but says that a testosterone level that goes from normal, to high, to normal is typical of someone on a steroid cycle. "After a person stops using, the T:E ratio" -- that's the testosterone-to-epitestosterone ratio, which is 1:1 in most people, and above 4:1 in positive tests -- "goes back down to normal levels, and that could be in a matter of days or hours. It depends on how much they used, how long they've been using, and their own individual metabolism." Research done by German scientists showed that one particular drug boosted a patient's T:E ratio above 80:1 before it dropped back to normal only 12 hours later.
quote:Originally posted by Dad04:
According to a Brewers teammate, he immediately appealed the result and took a second test, which he passed.
Which, experts have testified, has no bearing on the original results.
More of the same, part deux! "I don't know how that got there" - really? Now that's just plain stupid...quote:According to a Brewers teammate, he immediately appealed the result and took a second test, which he passed.
GED10DaD
This is kind of a first for my 9 year old boy. Never sure what goes on inside a kid's head but he was visibly disappointed when I told him about Braun.
He never cared for Manny since Manny was a "bad attitude player". But hearing about Braun was different. Not my boy's hero, but someone he enjoyed following since many of the Brewers have played here in Nashville.
He never cared for Manny since Manny was a "bad attitude player". But hearing about Braun was different. Not my boy's hero, but someone he enjoyed following since many of the Brewers have played here in Nashville.
My son's comment on his FaceBook page yesterday:
"The list of hitters I faced who have taken PED's isn't getting any shorter."
His comment brings to mind TRHit's early response on this thread.
TR, you and I agree much more than we disagree; but, on this one, evidently, we're at opposite ends of the opinion spectrum.
There are way too many players toiling out there day in and day out who are committed to succeeding without the benefit of performance-enhancing drugs to give any berth whatsoever to "juiced" players.
No tolerance on this issue.
"The list of hitters I faced who have taken PED's isn't getting any shorter."
His comment brings to mind TRHit's early response on this thread.
TR, you and I agree much more than we disagree; but, on this one, evidently, we're at opposite ends of the opinion spectrum.
There are way too many players toiling out there day in and day out who are committed to succeeding without the benefit of performance-enhancing drugs to give any berth whatsoever to "juiced" players.
No tolerance on this issue.
I agree Prepster...no tolerance. As the father of a son hopeful to make it to the next level, the mere thought of him having to consider a PED to stay competitive is frightening. This should be dealt with in the firmest and most restrictive way possible for MLB. Take a position Selig! Either your for it or against it....there cannot and should not be any equivocation.
My family is a huge fan of every Braun family members.
We hope Ryan did not do what he is accused of.
Should Ryan's innocence is the path decided, the
tainting of innocence is overwhelming.
The breach from MLB by a news source
while the appeal process is on-going
is abominable.
I enjoyed meeting Prepster and watching his son
compete all four college years, however lines have
been crossed. Simply the idea that competing is clean is naive.
We hope Ryan did not do what he is accused of.
Should Ryan's innocence is the path decided, the
tainting of innocence is overwhelming.
The breach from MLB by a news source
while the appeal process is on-going
is abominable.
I enjoyed meeting Prepster and watching his son
compete all four college years, however lines have
been crossed. Simply the idea that competing is clean is naive.
quote:Originally posted by Bear:
Simply the idea that competing is clean is naive.
At the risk of being presumptuous, I do not think the posters on this site believe that competition is clean in professional baseball nor in college ball for that matter. There are people at all levels who do not go by the rules.
I would be very glad if Braun is exculpated.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
DOES IT REALLY MATTER ?
I don't think it matters enough for people to swear off major league baseball. And Bud Seelig knows that.
I thought TR was saying it didn't matter what kind of steroids, how or when he took them - if he tests positive, it's positive...
Which are my thoughts.
I hope it's not true - he seems to be a hard working player.
Which are my thoughts.
I hope it's not true - he seems to be a hard working player.
quote:Originally posted by Bear:
My family is a huge fan of every Braun family members.
We hope Ryan did not do what he is accused of.
Should Ryan's innocence is the path decided, the
tainting of innocence is overwhelming.
The breach from MLB by a news source
while the appeal process is on-going
is abominable.
Abominable, Bear? I think you're being naive.
Re-read the original story.
Every source mentioned was described as a member of Braun's camp. The partial and selective information released was chosen and phrased in a manner calculated to create doubt in a case that would otherwise be cut and dried. There were no statements or talking points from any other party. Even the timing--the middle of an NFL Sunday afternoon where it wouldn't dominate the sports news day like it would in the middle of the week--was in Braun's interest.
This was not a hit piece. This was pre-emptive damage control. When you know bad news will get out, a basic rule of crisis communications is to get it out early and control the context of its release. Braun's handlers did their job this weekend.
55mom,
I think it is safe to say that those of us who are familiar with TR's past posts on steroids do not share your interpretation of TR's post.
I think it is safe to say that those of us who are familiar with TR's past posts on steroids do not share your interpretation of TR's post.
I share the sentiment that it's possible that Braun's people leaked this info. The thought would be that they could create the seed of doubt in the public's mind whereas the MLB, once the process is over with, can erase all doubt. But if the storyline can be created that he was somehow wronged, he might not lose all marketability.
They also bank on the general public not knowing the undeniable light science that we talked in this thread.
They also bank on the general public not knowing the undeniable light science that we talked in this thread.
Several clarifications:
(1) If I misread the intent of TR's comment, sincerest apologies to you, TR.
(2) Bear, you and I have agreed and will continue to agree on much more than we disagree. ...and, I should have been clear that if Ryan Braun has been unfairly accused, then I'm very sorry for the injustice that he's endured. In that case, clearly, my comments don't pertain to him.
(3) I am anything but naive on this topic. There always have been and always will be players who try to cheat the game; one way or another.
However, that doesn't lead me to the rationalization that because others have succeeded in getting away with it or will attempt it in the future, I should simply shrug my shoulders and reconcile myself to the "new reality."
I'll say it again: As long as there are players who are toiling day in and day out to succeed without the benefit of performance-enhancing drugs, I will believe that baseball should be intolerant of their use.
No rationalization. No apologies for the belief.
(1) If I misread the intent of TR's comment, sincerest apologies to you, TR.
(2) Bear, you and I have agreed and will continue to agree on much more than we disagree. ...and, I should have been clear that if Ryan Braun has been unfairly accused, then I'm very sorry for the injustice that he's endured. In that case, clearly, my comments don't pertain to him.
(3) I am anything but naive on this topic. There always have been and always will be players who try to cheat the game; one way or another.
However, that doesn't lead me to the rationalization that because others have succeeded in getting away with it or will attempt it in the future, I should simply shrug my shoulders and reconcile myself to the "new reality."
I'll say it again: As long as there are players who are toiling day in and day out to succeed without the benefit of performance-enhancing drugs, I will believe that baseball should be intolerant of their use.
No rationalization. No apologies for the belief.
I might feel differently about steroid use if,
1. They could be legally obtained
and related to that fact,
2. They were clearly safe to use for all that wish to use them. Unfortunately, even a slight misuse can have serious repercussions and "by the book" use in someone that is too young (this extends into mid twenties) can cause endocrine issues, since the endocrine system is not finished developing until adulthood.
Until then, we can't tolerate violation of the law or the rules of baseball. From MLB's standpoint, it would even be a jeopardization of their investments (the player in question) when he endangers his health/commits a crime in that way.
1. They could be legally obtained
and related to that fact,
2. They were clearly safe to use for all that wish to use them. Unfortunately, even a slight misuse can have serious repercussions and "by the book" use in someone that is too young (this extends into mid twenties) can cause endocrine issues, since the endocrine system is not finished developing until adulthood.
Until then, we can't tolerate violation of the law or the rules of baseball. From MLB's standpoint, it would even be a jeopardization of their investments (the player in question) when he endangers his health/commits a crime in that way.
Ran into an interesting (though not particularly surprising) story on the Brewers Blog at the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel Online:
Probable Braun defense strategy
I don't have much to add to the informed and informative discussion here, but found this interesting.
The one thing I would say, and maybe I too am a cynic, but there is much to agree with in observer44's post on this topic at the top of page two on this thread.
Probable Braun defense strategy
I don't have much to add to the informed and informative discussion here, but found this interesting.
The one thing I would say, and maybe I too am a cynic, but there is much to agree with in observer44's post on this topic at the top of page two on this thread.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
55mom,
I think it is safe to say that those of us who are familiar with TR's past posts on steroids do not share your interpretation of TR's post.
oh, OK.... I know I'm very biased against steroid use so I suppose that is why I read it that way.
I knew a man (body builder) who dropped dead from a heart attack due to use. He had somehow managed to obtain bovine steroids and his heart was 3 times normal size. He left behind 4 children, all under the age of 6. My ball player, who was in kindergarten at the time and friends of the oldest, remembers the events. It was very shocking, and so incredibly sad for his young family.
I just don't know why someone would risk it all....
Also Braun went to the U, which does have a certain reputation.
quote:Originally posted by igball:
Also Braun went to the U, which does have a certain reputation.
Please explain the above, what baseball player from UM has ever been found using steroids or accused of using? I must have missed something.
Anyone thinking that Braun or Manny are exceptions really is fooling themselves.
They just got caught.
It's interesting about who really leaked the story, I can't imagine that MLB would be the culprit, why, this doesn't make them look too good. It may very well be that his camp decided that he was going to be suspended anywy, why not let the court of public opinion sway the jury (MLB).
You're right, you did miss something.
http://www.tokeofthetown.com/2...r_busted_for_sel.php
Is it "fair"? Schools get reputations and for the most part, they are well earned.
You can ask Braun about fairness when you see him cashing one of his paychecks.
http://www.tokeofthetown.com/2...r_busted_for_sel.php
Is it "fair"? Schools get reputations and for the most part, they are well earned.
You can ask Braun about fairness when you see him cashing one of his paychecks.
quote:Originally posted by igball:
You're right, you did miss something.
http://www.tokeofthetown.com/2...r_busted_for_sel.php
Is it "fair"? Schools get reputations and for the most part, they are well earned.
You can ask Braun about fairness when you see him cashing one of his paychecks.
Please explain how a player who left in 2005 and now testing positive for steroids has anything to do with a stupid kid getting busted in 2010, 5 years later?
Are you saying that because one does something the whole team does it? That because Braun did steroids, he picked it up at UM? I give the UM baseball coaches much more credit than that.
What I'm saying quite pointedly is I've heard that the U has a culture of juicing. Shocking, just shocking I know.
Braun getting caught doesn't dispute that image but in fact reinforces it- as does the "stupid kid getting busted". (Is he stupid because he got caught?)
Also since I have to defend myself against words put in my mouth, I did not say the "whole team does it" (did all of the Brewers "do it"?), nor that the coaches were/ are aware of it, but there is a reference on this site to an anedoctal story about someone seeing Braun shooting up while he was on the Cape. Maybe he did learn something at the U.
So just because you are not aware of current stories or rumors, doesnt mean they dont exist or have merit.
If a tree falls in Miami and TPM doesnt hear it, it is allowed to fall?
Braun getting caught doesn't dispute that image but in fact reinforces it- as does the "stupid kid getting busted". (Is he stupid because he got caught?)
Also since I have to defend myself against words put in my mouth, I did not say the "whole team does it" (did all of the Brewers "do it"?), nor that the coaches were/ are aware of it, but there is a reference on this site to an anedoctal story about someone seeing Braun shooting up while he was on the Cape. Maybe he did learn something at the U.
So just because you are not aware of current stories or rumors, doesnt mean they dont exist or have merit.
If a tree falls in Miami and TPM doesnt hear it, it is allowed to fall?
I am in no favor of what he did, however he did what he did because that was HIS decision. It has nothing to do with where he went to school does it?
This is what you've heard, or this is what you know?
Yeah, you hear lots of stuff, people told us not to send son to Clemson because they all took steroids and encouraged to as well. Actually what someone said was obvious that they use steroids because they had acne.
If some of us had to repeat things they have "heard" you most likely would want your player to not play baseball, based on things postedom a message board because someone "heard" something.
I am not particularly a big fan of UM baseball, but in no way do they deserve to be associated with steroids because one 27 year old adult tested positive and one 19 year old used poor judgement.
My point is there is a LOT that goes on, in just about every program, let's not be so naive to call out one particular program, especially because of what we "hear".
This is what you've heard, or this is what you know?
Yeah, you hear lots of stuff, people told us not to send son to Clemson because they all took steroids and encouraged to as well. Actually what someone said was obvious that they use steroids because they had acne.
If some of us had to repeat things they have "heard" you most likely would want your player to not play baseball, based on things postedom a message board because someone "heard" something.
I am not particularly a big fan of UM baseball, but in no way do they deserve to be associated with steroids because one 27 year old adult tested positive and one 19 year old used poor judgement.
My point is there is a LOT that goes on, in just about every program, let's not be so naive to call out one particular program, especially because of what we "hear".
Fact is I don't have a dog in this particular fight. I just find it quite sad really. I liked Braun as a player until now. I simply said that Braun went to the U which has a certain reputation.
I'm entitled to voice that opinoin no matter what others may think. You have a different opinoin (another shock I know) which you are also entitled to have. I'll leave it at that.
The thing that I find really distasteful about these stories are the corrosive affect they have on younger players. Players who may be in the minors trying to make it (maybe by then there are no illusions left) or guys in college or high school.
I hear rumors about this guy or that guy or this school or that school or coaches talking about a top MLB pitcher whom they say no way could he maintain his velocity that far in a game without being on something and I ask myself what the he** is going on? What affect do these rumors and stories have on young men listening to them?
The players know very well what's missing to get to the next level (or next contract) and often it can be found in that bottle.
Poor judgement is the term often used when someone is caught. Rich man is the term used for those not caught (or caught after the ink is dry).
This stuff is putting young men in some very difficult situations I think.
I'm entitled to voice that opinoin no matter what others may think. You have a different opinoin (another shock I know) which you are also entitled to have. I'll leave it at that.
The thing that I find really distasteful about these stories are the corrosive affect they have on younger players. Players who may be in the minors trying to make it (maybe by then there are no illusions left) or guys in college or high school.
I hear rumors about this guy or that guy or this school or that school or coaches talking about a top MLB pitcher whom they say no way could he maintain his velocity that far in a game without being on something and I ask myself what the he** is going on? What affect do these rumors and stories have on young men listening to them?
The players know very well what's missing to get to the next level (or next contract) and often it can be found in that bottle.
Poor judgement is the term often used when someone is caught. Rich man is the term used for those not caught (or caught after the ink is dry).
This stuff is putting young men in some very difficult situations I think.
Yes, these "stories" can be hurtful to players as well as programs?
The thing here is that one can't pick or choose who they want to point their finger at. You are leading others to beleive that, this is happens in big programs. From what I know, most of the guys in milb that test positive come from small programs, big programs, no programs (out of HS) and latin america. The culture is not limited to one paricular group or a place, I think it unfair to point a finger at one place because of what one "hears".
JMO.
The thing here is that one can't pick or choose who they want to point their finger at. You are leading others to beleive that, this is happens in big programs. From what I know, most of the guys in milb that test positive come from small programs, big programs, no programs (out of HS) and latin america. The culture is not limited to one paricular group or a place, I think it unfair to point a finger at one place because of what one "hears".
JMO.
Does la la land have a zip code?
.
I agree ig...very,very sad indeed.
.
- "This stuff is putting young men in some very difficult situations I think."
I agree ig...very,very sad indeed.
.
See Victor Conte's, BALCO Founder, comments regarding the Braun Case and the current "loophole" in the testing for synthetic testosterone, how athletes can use and cheat testing.
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/ne...erone_testing_121211
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/ne...erone_testing_121211
I believe Victor Conte. The name of the game has always been "how much can you do and still pass a test?"
One thing we haven't mentioned here in the discussion of PEDs is ADHD drugs, namely Adderall and Ritalin. How many MLB players use them? How many of our own kids use them? (maybe, you don't know about it) Adderall abuse is very prevalent on college and high school campuses as a 'study aid'. It's also used by some athletes for an extra boost.
Many students/athletes have the attitude, "It can't be bad for you if doctors prescribe it."
If you don't know anything about Adderall, you'd better find out- fast.
Here is a little about Adderall on college campuses:
Adderall: College Students' New Drug of Choice
Here is a hsbbweb thread about Adderall:
MLB and ADD/ADHD
One thing we haven't mentioned here in the discussion of PEDs is ADHD drugs, namely Adderall and Ritalin. How many MLB players use them? How many of our own kids use them? (maybe, you don't know about it) Adderall abuse is very prevalent on college and high school campuses as a 'study aid'. It's also used by some athletes for an extra boost.
Many students/athletes have the attitude, "It can't be bad for you if doctors prescribe it."
If you don't know anything about Adderall, you'd better find out- fast.
Here is a little about Adderall on college campuses:
Adderall: College Students' New Drug of Choice
Here is a hsbbweb thread about Adderall:
MLB and ADD/ADHD
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
Anyone thinking that Braun or Manny are exceptions really is fooling themselves.
They just got caught.
Yep.
quote:Originally posted by getagoodpitchtohit:quote:Originally posted by TPM:
Anyone thinking that Braun or Manny are exceptions really is fooling themselves.
They just got caught.
Yep.
Nope.
Below is an article showing that Braun has his suspension overturn:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02...suspension.html?_r=1
Maybe count me as ignorant, but how would storing a closed and sealed sample in a refrigerator overnight have any bearing on how the sample tested? I'm just not getting this one.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02...suspension.html?_r=1
Maybe count me as ignorant, but how would storing a closed and sealed sample in a refrigerator overnight have any bearing on how the sample tested? I'm just not getting this one.
overturned on a procedural technicality?
quote:Originally posted by birdman14:
Maybe count me as ignorant, but how would storing a closed and sealed sample in a refrigerator overnight have any bearing on how the sample tested? I'm just not getting this one.
The person in possession of the sample violated protocol for the handling of such evidence. So, now you have the very person who has already shown a failure being the only person that can attest to the integrity of the sample.
No foundation, not valid. Simple as that.
quote:Originally posted by Matt13:quote:Originally posted by getagoodpitchtohit:quote:Originally posted by TPM:
Anyone thinking that Braun or Manny are exceptions really is fooling themselves.
They just got caught.
Yep.
Nope.
And in one player's case cleared on a technicality, nothing negates the first test results, it was positive.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
And in one player's case cleared on a technicality, nothing negates the first test results, it was positive.
Except that there's no way to show it wasn't tampered. Hence, the decision today.
quote:Originally posted by Matt13:quote:Originally posted by TPM:
And in one player's case cleared on a technicality, nothing negates the first test results, it was positive.
Except that there's no way to show it wasn't tampered. Hence, the decision today.
If that's how you see it, the report on their decision and why will come out in 30 days or less.
This is a big blow for MLB, but maybe will teach them a lesson, if you want to be serious about something, take care of business correctly.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
If that's how you see it, the report on their decision and why will come out in 30 days or less.
That's not how I see it, that's what happened. The collector took the specimens home instead of shipping them that day.