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Agreed. I WOULD suggest that everyone read the indictment, but I will warn you, IF you do you will have trouble getting the images out of your head.

After reading the indictment I fear that we have just seen the tip of the iceberg. It raises as many questions as it answers. For example:

1. Did the the graduate assistant tell Paterno the FULL version of what he saw. Paterno's comments suggest that me have not gotten quite all of the gory details. It is a little unclear whether the assistant told the grand jury that he gave Paterno ALL of the details. You KNOW that someone would have asked that question of both witnesses. BUt it is unclear what the response was.

2. Exactly why did Sandusky resign in 99? Did it have anything to do with the alleged molestation incidents in 1998? Again, surely someone asked this question, but the indictment doesn't indicate what the response was?

3. Did Paterno know about the 1998 incident? Since there was a police and Social Services investigation you would think that he had to. But the indictment doesn't say. Again, I can't imagine that someone did not ask this question in the grand jury hearings.

This is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.


quote:
Originally posted by redbird5:
CNN has the indictment posted. It made my stomach turn.

JoePa's behavior is reprehensible. He was more concerned for his program's image than the safety of a child.
This whole thing is sick, but I do agree with MTH that there are still a lot of unknowns.

It is not clear what JoePa was told by the graduate assistant. From what is in the Grand Jury report, it does not appear that he had the gory details. Nor, does it appear, did Spanier. Probably why they were exonerated.

Was it really reported to the Second Mile organization as indicated in Curley's testimony (which has already been determined to be partially false)? If so, why didn't they report it to the authorities?

Who else should have gone to the police? Seems that several other people aren't being mentioned in the media attacks - (the grad student, his father). Seems like this is more of a witch hunt on JoePa.

Until more facts come out, judgement on who else besides Sandusky is to blame is just being based on assumptions. The Grand Jury seems to have received enough information to have made their decision. Why are the rest of us making assumptions to fill in the blanks?
quote:
Originally posted by VaRHPmom:
Why are the rest of us making assumptions to fill in the blanks?


My assumption is that way too many people from Penn State and Centre County knew what happened, or was happening, and chose to deal with it in a way that protected themselves, and PSU's holier-than-thou image (and all the money that comes with it) rather than protect innocent, local children. That's my opinion.

And, now, there is much speculation that Joe Paterno has already coached his last game. That wouldn't bother me, one bit.

Penn State Said to Be Planning Paterno’s Exit Amid Scandal

Paterno's weekly scheduled news conference was canceled. Penn State issued this statement.

Due to the ongoing legal circumstances, centered around the recent allegations and charges, we have determined that today's news conference will not be held and will not be rescheduled," university spokesman Jeff Nelson told a throng of reporters and cameras outside the Clemens Family Football Team Complex.
Last edited by AntzDad
quote:
Originally posted by ctandc:
I read the Grand Jury findings...and one thing sticks out to me...maybe I'm missing something.

Why didn't the young graduate assistant go to the police? Was he afraid of losing his job? Was he not sure of what he saw?

I don't get that part.


I can only guess that he was so shocked at what he saw that he didn't know what to do so he called his dad who said go right to Joe Pa, which he did. He was told the matter would be handled.
Same with the custodian He was so shocked at what he saw his co workers thought he was having a heart attack.. But the people in charge should have taken charge and reported the abuse. Very sad
quote:
Originally posted by njbb:
I can only guess that he was so shocked at what he saw that he didn't know what to do so he called his dad who said go right to Joe Pa, which he did. He was told the matter would be handled.
Same with the custodian He was so shocked at what he saw his co workers thought he was having a heart attack.. But the people in charge should have taken charge and reported the abuse. Very sad


Okay I get that part.

But here's where I lose track.

Janitors SEE this going on.
A young graduate assistant sees this going on.

They SEE it. With their OWN eyes. They KNOW it's wrong. They report it to higher ups.

And then they continue to see this predator with other children? Involved in an at risk (that's sadly ironic now isn't it?) childrens charity, working with the coaching staff.

They never hear about any punishment for this guy.

So NO ONE says "Hey about that thing I reported..what ever happened?"

Maybe it's just me...but when it comes to kids, job or no job, I don't see how I could have lived with myself if I hadn't of made **** sure that whomever I saw doing those horrid things to a child was punished...or at least brought to the attention of LAW ENFORCEMENT.

That, in my opinion, is UNFORGIVABLE and everyone who had ANY Knowledge of inappropriate behavior by this guy (including from the Grand Jury notes the charity's representative) and did not turn this evidence over to law enforcement for investigation, should be canned, if not prosecute for obstruction of justice.
quote:
That, in my opinion, is UNFORGIVABLE and everyone who had ANY Knowledge of inappropriate behavior by this guy (including from the Grand Jury notes the charity's representative) and did not turn this evidence over to law enforcement for investigation, should be canned, if not prosecute for obstruction of justice.



Agreed 100%. And if I found out that was my son Sandusky attacked that night, he and everyone that saw it, and or knew about it and chose not to report it to the authorities, better sleep lightly.
Last edited by Prime9
quote:
Originally posted by njbb:

"I can only guess that [the grad asst] was so shocked at what he saw that he didn't know what to do so he called his dad who said go right to Joe Pa, which he did. He was told the matter would be handled."


This does jibe with the account in the grand jury's report, BUT it does not explain why this person chose to stay at Penn State even though (a) he knew that not one of the superiors he reported this to and spoke to had reported this to police; and (b) that nobody was really doing anything to prevent Sandusky from remaining on campus. Yahoo reported that Sandusky was seen in the Penn State weight room within the last week, and The Second Mile was using Penn State campuses (though not State College) to continue conducting camps for children RUN BY SANDUSKY through 2009. Continued silence in the wake of things like these, and choosing to remain aligned with superiors who were clearly choosing university and staff image and reputation over the welfare of children, certainly raises some questions in my mind about this person.

quote:
Same with the custodian. He was so shocked at what he saw his co workers thought he was having a heart attack.


The report actually details that the custodian was told who to report this to "if he chose to" but didn't because he feared he would lose his job if he reported it. There is a strong undercurrent of EXACTLY this throughout the report, and it is a big part of what is wrong with this picture.

I went to bed last night thinking I could be rightly criticized for saying I agree with Coach2709 about not rushing to judgment, but then I say flat out that Paterno may be "legally exonerated" but to me is "morally culpable." I was going to post something detailing the very serious questions left unanswered, that lead me to that conclusion - because JoePa certainly has some 'splainin' to do, at the very least - but for the most part MTH beat me to it.

Among the things that bother me most:

* This was going on for FIFTEEN YEARS. Sandusky brought his victims to the sidelines, sat with them at pre-game banquets, took them to Bowl Games. And nobody knew or suspected anything? No one thought that was even the least bit strange? There were at least two official investigations, one of them (at least) involving Pennslyvannia's Child Protective Services agency. Both Gary Schulz (the VP for Business and Finance who resigned) and the general counsel for the university, at least, knew the full details of the 1998 incident, which was clearly inappropriate (I would say criminal, but even if not, it should have cost Sandusky his job - which it apparently did - and any access to kids or the university. Paterno was certainly the most powerful man on campus, at least with respect to athletics. Are we REALLY to believe that he didn't KNOW anything and never even once confronted or asked Sandusky about any of this, even after 2002?

* The grand jury report details Sandusky emotionally telling yet another one of his victims about a meeting with Paterno in May 1999 - not coincidentally very close in time to the conclusion of the 1998 investigation that curiously chose not to charge Sandusky - and that Sandusky said JoePa had told him clearly he would never be the next Penn State head coach, and he told his young victim "not to tell anybody about the meeting." Why? Clearly, Paterno has to be held accountable for what he knew of the 1998 investigation, or even earlier suspicious behavior, and EXACTLY what role that played in Sandusky's 1999 "retirement." And clearly SOME officials knew, yet they allowed Sandusky to have full access to their facilities, use the Penn State name and facilities in at least a tacit endorsement of his football camps and activities, and most importantly continue to bring children onto the campus. Even after 2002, when he was supposedly "banned," nobody made any kind of effort to enforce that. Why? Who knew what, when, and why didn't they do anything? And as captain of the ship, all of this applies ESPECIALLY to Joe Paterno.

* Yet rather than be the forthright protector of "his kids" that he has always claimed to be, JoePa is pretty clearly in full PR spin mode, if not outright lying, in his statement to the media. He said “It was obvious that the witness [the grad student asst] was distraught over what he saw, but he at no time related to me the very specific actions contained in the grand jury report.” Yet, the grand jury report details Paterno's testimony under oath as having been told by the grad student asst that he saw Sandusky "fondling or doing something of a sexual nature to a young boy in the shower." How is that not specific enough?

Bottom line: Over the last twenty-five years, how many times have we seen a coach or program punished for NCAA violations about which he professes no knowledge, because there was a "lack of institutional control." Whether JoePa's actions are criminal or not, or whether he knew or didn't know, doesn't really matter. HE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN. HE SHOULD HAVE ACTED.
quote:
Originally posted by Prime9:
quote:
That, in my opinion, is UNFORGIVABLE and everyone who had ANY Knowledge of inappropriate behavior by this guy (including from the Grand Jury notes the charity's representative) and did not turn this evidence over to law enforcement for investigation, should be canned, if not prosecute for obstruction of justice.



Agreed 100%. And if I found out that was my son Sandusky attacked that night, he and everyone that saw it, and or knew about it and chose not to report it to the authorities, better sleep lightly.


I guess that was a big part of the problem, no one bothered to find out who the child was that he was involved in.

Just as the people involved had a hand in trying to make this go away, they should, make themsleves go away as well, like today.
quote:
That, in my opinion, is UNFORGIVABLE and everyone who had ANY Knowledge of inappropriate behavior by this guy (including from the Grand Jury notes the charity's representative) and did not turn this evidence over to law enforcement for investigation, should be canned, if not prosecute for obstruction of justice.


Honestly, if I walk into a shower and see this happening I'm going to beat the hell out of this guy and then tell the proper authorities.
I think everyone needs to hear Joe's story.

Something about this just doesn't add up. I'm hoping for some kind of explanation. He just doesn't seem like the type to let this go on and end up in this position. I have a hard time believing he simply allowed a child molester to operate in his world.

Guess he will be gone now, but he needs to talk. What a brutal ending to such a storied career. But that seems tame compared to what those young kids suffered.

My guess is that Iowa coach Kirk Ferentz will be offered the job. Hope that doesn't happen!
quote:
Originally posted by coach2709:
quote:
That, in my opinion, is UNFORGIVABLE and everyone who had ANY Knowledge of inappropriate behavior by this guy (including from the Grand Jury notes the charity's representative) and did not turn this evidence over to law enforcement for investigation, should be canned, if not prosecute for obstruction of justice.


Honestly, if I walk into a shower and see this happening I'm going to beat the hell out of this guy and then tell the proper authorities.


Okay I'm glad it's not just me. My first reaction would probably land me not only in the unemployment line, but in the local jail. But at least I could sleep at night.
quote:
Originally posted by Prime9:
quote:
That, in my opinion, is UNFORGIVABLE and everyone who had ANY Knowledge of inappropriate behavior by this guy (including from the Grand Jury notes the charity's representative) and did not turn this evidence over to law enforcement for investigation, should be canned, if not prosecute for obstruction of justice.



Agreed 100%. And if I found out that was my son Sandusky attacked that night, he and everyone that saw it, and or knew about it and chose not to report it to the authorities, better sleep lightly.


Which makes one ponder whether the reaction might have been different if the victim was known to those who knew first. Sadly, it probably would have been swifter and more effective.
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
I think everyone needs to hear Joe's story.

Something about this just doesn't add up. I'm hoping for some kind of explanation. He just doesn't seem like the type to let this go on and end up in this position. I have a hard time believing he simply allowed a child molester to operate in his world.

Guess he will be gone now, but he needs to talk. What a brutal ending to such a storied career. But that seems tame compared to what those young kids suffered.

My guess is that Iowa coach Kirk Ferentz will be offered the job. Hope that doesn't happen!


I don't know how much credibility it holds...but I remember having a discussion with a co worker awhile back...this guy's little brother was somehow involved with the football team several years ago. Player / assistant, I don't remember.

Anyway, the guy told me that his brother told him that at that point Joe P just kind of stood out there on the sideline....he was more like a figurehead at that point....for what it's worth.
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:

"I think everyone needs to hear Joe's story. Something about this just doesn't add up."


I agree, PGStaff, but I just don't think we will if Paterno is fired or resigns. At least not until Sandusky goes to trial, and I think it is more probable than not (given the evidence in the report) that Sandusky takes some sort of plea agreement.

If Paterno wants to stay around, even just through the end of the year, though, I think the only way he can is if he answers a LOT of questions very publicly and very honestly, and with plenty of contrition. There is just no way the public will allow that outcome without it.
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
My guess is that Iowa coach Kirk Ferentz will be offered the job. Hope that doesn't happen!


"They" have been saying Urban Meyer since he left Florida. Or maybe Al Golden, but Golden was there before he went to Temple, so he's tied to the old guard. I hope they clean house and start over. It would make the message perfectly clear- to everyone in State College.
Last edited by AntzDad
Paterno has no business coaching to begin with. He should've left 15 years ago and let new blood run it. What this old goat is hanging on for makes no sense. Maybe he's just one of them ol jock sniffers that can't let go and get on with the next part of his life. Now with this scandal hanging over his head, he needs to be run out on a rail. This is quite sickening what happened and since Paterno is the face of this mess and allowed what went on at PSU, he needs to be kicked out.It wouldn't be a bad thing to bring up charges on Paterno himself if there was something they can nail on him.
Last edited by zombywoof
Bye Bye Joe Pa , time for you to go . He knew about it and he did the very least possible to cover his rear . This is a vile and disgusting act by sandusky and he should be crucified . 15 years this went on and noone thought it strange that a grown man was taking young boys on road trips and sharing a room . They took 14 wins from Bobby for online cheating , wonder what BLIND PA will get . SICK !!!!!
quote:
Originally posted by njbb:
There seems to be more outrage against Joe than the guy who molested the children


No. This Sandusky character is a sick individual. However, since Paterno knew about this and continued to allow him to have access to kids on the PSU facilities is a disgrace. He turned a blind eye and should do the right thing and step down
Paterno should quit today, saving what shreds of dignity he can scrape together. How ironic this was covered up to save Penn State, with the cover up being the thing that brings Penn State to its knees.

Recruiting might be tough for awhile. Finding a coaching staff might be tough for awhile. Penn State will be banished to football Siberia for 20 years.
Last edited by Dad04
quote:
Originally posted by njbb:
There seems to be more outrage against Joe than the guy who molested the children


I hear what you're saying. My take is that Sandusky has finally been charged and will get his soon.

However, now it's time to find out who else aided and abetted this monster with their silence. JoePa just might be one of those people.

There can't be too many crimes worse than harming a child
quote:
Originally posted by njbb:

"There seems to be more outrage against Joe than the guy who molested the children."


Not for me. It's just obvious to me (after reading the grand jury report) that Sandusky is going down, and it is natural to move on to the next question: who knew what, when, and could have done more to stop this?

As I process this scandal, which I think is as big as any I've ever seen in my lifetime, I have growing disgust for both the graduate assistant, and the Penn State (and Second Mile) general counsel, as much or more than JoePa.

The grad assistant saw a RAPE and didn't think he needed to go to police? And then stuck around (and STILL never reported the crime to authorities) for nearly 10 years, while clearly there was no reporting or investigation, and the rapist was allowed continued free reign of the campus?

And that general counsel knew what had happened in 1998, and had to have known in 2002 (as general counsel for the university, how could he not have?), and yet in BOTH of his roles allowed Sandusky to continue to interact with children.

BUT, JoePa is deserving of criticism and outrage, too. He is the man behind the curtain, the Wizard at this particular Oz. He set the culture there, and that includes fostering a culture where certain people (and maybe ALL people) were afraid to buck the program for fear of losing their jobs.

To me, his denials of knowledge - at least on a level where he should have started asking questions - are simply not credible. But, whether he knew or not, HE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN. He is the captain of the ship, and he is as responsible as any coach for "institutional control." And if he knew, there is no excuse for not having done more.

Finally, I think it is human nature to want to take down a peg those caught in hypocrisy. For years, Paterno has piously claimed he has taken the moral and ethical high road, that he is different from other coaches, a molder of youth. I don't want to say he has NOT been those things, and we shouldn't diminish too much the many good things Paterno has done over the years, but it is difficult to reconcile that image with the man who allowed this scandal to happen.
quote:
Originally posted by EdgarFan:
quote:
Originally posted by njbb:

"There seems to be more outrage against Joe than the guy who molested the children."


Not for me. It's just obvious to me (after reading the grand jury report) that Sandusky is going down, and it is natural to move on to the next question: who knew what, when, and could have done more to stop this?

As I process this scandal, which I think is as big as any I've ever seen in my lifetime, I have growing disgust for both the graduate assistant, and the Penn State (and Second Mile) general counsel, as much or more than JoePa.

The grad assistant saw a RAPE and didn't think he needed to go to police? And then stuck around (and STILL never reported the crime to authorities) for nearly 10 years, while clearly there was no reporting or investigation, and the rapist was allowed continued free reign of the campus?

And that general counsel knew what had happened in 1998, and had to have known in 2002 (as general counsel for the university, how could he not have?), and yet in BOTH of his roles allowed Sandusky to continue to interact with children.

BUT, JoePa is deserving of criticism and outrage, too. He is the man behind the curtain, the Wizard at this particular Oz. He set the culture there, and that includes fostering a culture where certain people (and maybe ALL people) were afraid to buck the program for fear of losing their jobs.

To me, his denials of knowledge - at least on a level where he should have started asking questions - are simply not credible. But, whether he knew or not, HE SHOULD HAVE KNOWN. He is the captain of the ship, and he is as responsible as any coach for "institutional control." And if he knew, there is no excuse for not having done more.

Finally, I think it is human nature to want to take down a peg those caught in hypocrisy. For years, Paterno has piously claimed he has taken the moral and ethical high road, that he is different from other coaches, a molder of youth. I don't want to say he has NOT been those things, and we shouldn't diminish too much the many good things Paterno has done over the years, but it is difficult to reconcile that image with the man who allowed this scandal to happen.


Agreed! And what of the DA who had the opportunity to bring charges in another reported incident against Sandusky involving an 11 yr. old child this time, in 1998, and chose not to? Can't ask him now as he "disappeared" in 2005? This situation just keeps getting dirtier!!
Last edited by Prime9
quote:
Originally posted by Prime9:

"...And what of the DA who had the opportunity to bring charges in another reported incident against Sandusky involving an 11 yr. old child this time, in 1998, and chose not to? Can't ask him now as he "disappeared" in 2005? This situation just keeps getting dirtier!!


I agree. There's no shortage of people who didn't do "the right thing," who could have prevented a decade or more of continuing abuse of children, if they had only acted. JoePa is far from alone - it's just that, when you see so many people sitting on their hands, in a small town where JoePa is virtually a God, you can't help but think that if JoePa had done even the smallest amount more, sent even the slightest signal that he wanted to root this out, that others would have followed suit.

I don't often admit this, but I went to law school. Smile I don't practice any more, and if pressed I usually say "I am a recovering lawyer," but I have enough of a legal background to speak somewhat authoritatively on this. And this is what is surprising to me:

For the life of me, I can't figure out why that 1998 investigation (which involved "Victim 6" and is detailed beginning on page 18 of the grand jury report) wouldn't have resulted in charges. You have basically the same set of facts as you do in 2002, except there was no sodomy witnessed by a third party. But you have a grown man naked in a locker room shower having physical contact with an 11-year-old boy. The investigation revealed a second victim (identified in the report as "B.K.") "who was subjected to nearly identical treatment in the shower as Victim 6" according to the investigating detective and as reported by the grand jury - this could not be written off as an isolated misunderstanding or lack of judgment surrounding "horseplay." Later in the investigation, the mother of Victim 6 wore a wire and confronted Sandusky, who told her he had done the same thing with other boys, would not promise not to do it again, admitted that he knew what he had done was wrong, asked for forgiveness (though he expected he wouldn't get it) and told her he wished he was dead.

Now, this wouldn't have resulted in as serious a charge as the 2002 incident should have, but there is NO DOUBT that is is a crime, and given what was turned up in the investigation, at the very least should have resulted in a lot longer investigation. And certainly, even though it did not result in charges at the time, it should have raised HUGE red flags for anybody aware of it about Sandusky being anywhere close to young boys, especially in a locker room shower.

I can't fathom why the DA would have declined to prosecute, except for small town / big college pressure. That he ends up vanishing (just as he was readying to reture) only adds to the mystery, as do the circumstances: When they found the guy's car, they searched a nearby river and found his laptop, and despite efforts to do so, they could never recover anything from its hard drive. They found searches for how to destroy a hard drive on another computer.

There is something very, very fishy in all of this.
No question about that. But it's hard for me to be as hard on him as Paterno. I keep thinking about my 22 y/o son in the same situation. I'd like to think that he would have beaten the **** out of Sandusky, called the cops, or both. But it's really hard to say how someone that age would react when he stumbled on the last thing in the world he ever expected to see.

But, there's no question but that McQuery is going to pay the price as well. His coaching career is probably over.

quote:
Originally posted by Dad04:
Mike McQuery has a lot of questions to answer, imo.
Last edited by MTH

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