When I enlisted in the service I had high enough scores to be able to choose my job. I chose a job that was US based to make sure that if Vietnam flared up again I wouldn't be likely to have to go.
Was that the right thing compared to people who volunteered for combat duty? Was that the right thing compared to the people who were drafted and sent over to Vietnam who went and risked or gave their lives rather than deserting? Heck no. Those are the people I have the utmost respect and gratitude for.
Was it a lot more than most people back then did? Yep.
Yes, he (McQueary) will be a prosecution witness. I'm sure they've had a little talk with him.
PG,
It may be good to have your view of people. That way hopefully a higher standard of what is right and wrong will be passed on to future generations. I just prefer to try to pass on the higher standards without presuming that I have a right to sit in judgement.
You are amazed that so many people did nothing. Sorry, but I'm not amazed. I'm just relieved that at least Mc*****y and his dad had the guts to go to Paterno in the first place.
It may be good to have your view of people. That way hopefully a higher standard of what is right and wrong will be passed on to future generations. I just prefer to try to pass on the higher standards without presuming that I have a right to sit in judgement.
You are amazed that so many people did nothing. Sorry, but I'm not amazed. I'm just relieved that at least Mc*****y and his dad had the guts to go to Paterno in the first place.
quote:There are some things that people think about before reacting. This wasn't one of those things.
Spot on.
McQueary is the guy, to me, who has some explaining to do. He's a big strong dude and he's seeing a guy rape a young boy and he does NOTHING?
Wouldn't the first thing you'd do be to yell out something like, "HEY! WHAT IS GOING ON HERE!"
Wouldn't you then go and take the boy and get him proper attention?
Wouldn't you go so far as to beat the living daylights out of the perpetrator, if necessary, to get him off the boy right then and there?
The concern it raises is that it suggests that Sandusky was considered untouchable around PSU, so much so that maybe some people even knew of his offenses and turned a blind eye to it, and a guy like McQueary knew all that and his first thought was to keep quiet and protect his job. That may all be speculation, but my mind is just searching for some idea of why he would not have reacted the way a normal person would have in that situation. My worst fear is that people knew this was going on for some time and just swept it under the rug, maybe repeatedly.
One thing you can bet on. Sandusky's lawyers will argue that McQueary's testimony is not credible, because anyone seeing what he saw would have behaved much differently. Lest we forget, Sandusky hasn't confessed to any of this yet, and may try to beat the rap in court.
It'll be, by my count, the 15th "trial of the century" so far this century.
Midlo,
As much as we'd like to think so history proves otherwise. I certainly hope that you and I and everybody else on this board would've done the right thing in that situation.
Unfortunately, as a group we are no better and no worse than people in general and people in general have often shown that they would've done far less.
As much as we'd like to think so history proves otherwise. I certainly hope that you and I and everybody else on this board would've done the right thing in that situation.
Unfortunately, as a group we are no better and no worse than people in general and people in general have often shown that they would've done far less.
Will there ever be a trial? Concerned for McQueary's safety, but not Sandusky's? Is that the plan? Let him walk around as an easy target for some kook, so the whole story is never told?
We tell our kids in the classroom to "Tell a trusted adult" when somethig bad has happened to them. The trusted adults in this case dropped the ball. The inaction of the adults allowed the assaults on children to continue. It's shameful!
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
[QUOTE]
It's amazing and disappointing that so many people did nothing to stop this. It seems like some kind of cult or something.
This is the sad and scary part. You have to be stupid to believe that no one knew of this monster and that many people had to know and had been covering up for this wacko for many years- maybe as long as he was at Penn State. Read the Grand Jury report- here is a link...and read it all!!!
http://www.freep.com/assets/freep/pdf/C4181508116.PDF
Do you actually think McQuery didn't tell anyone else but his dad and Joe Pa what he had seen? And as far as Paterno and the lack of details he reported to the AD is another joke. Something inappropriate going on in the in the shower? Give me a break! The first theing Paterno would have said to McQuery is "EXACTLY what did you see"?!!!There had to be a conspiracy to cover this up!!! Google and read Barry Switzers comments about it.
The rumors had to get around about his guy. Coaches in competitive sports are like old women and they gossip all the time. Why do you think that no one offered Sandusky a job when he retired at age 55 in his prime and on top of his game. The coaching fraternity probably knew he was a pedophile...
This is worse than the Catholic church covering for priests because it was known and allowed to continue! They all need to go to jail. Sandusky, if he doesn't blow his head off before he gets to jail, will not have fun experience in the Penn State Prison...
quote:Originally posted by johnj314:
Penn State Prison...
State Penn
Pedophilia
State
University
State
University
McQuerry placed on administrative leave. Wow that should have been a no-brainer
Lets be real here. McQuery tells Paterno that he saw Sandusky in the shower rapeing a young child. Joe can't really recall what McQuery told him? He has vague memories of the conversation? He takes it up the chain and doesn't press the issue when he see's that Sandusky is not charged? He doesn't go to anyone when he see's that Sandusky is still envolved with young kids and his "foundation?" He and McQuery never talk about it again? Joe never has any conversations with his staff about Sandusky and this incident? His staff says they never heard anything? Your around these guys every day for 12 months out of the year and you don't share any of this information with each other? McQuery never talks to anyone on the staff about it? No one takes the effort to inquire into this situation? No one has enough care for the kid or the fact that Sandusky is still with kids with his "foundation" to go to anyone about this? No one can pick up a phone and drop a dime?
There can only be one answer imo. A total cover up to protect the program from a scandal. A total cover up to protect a long time friend and not bring a sandal to their program. In other words PSU football , Jo Pa's legacy , their friendship with Sandusky , was more important than protecting the lives of young children.
As far as McQuery how can he live with himself? You walk in on a rape where a grown man is doing this to a little child. You simply turn and walk away and call your Daddy? You tell Coach the next day. You remain silent for how long? Any decent man would have fought for that young child right there. Right then. "Hey get off of him. What are you doing? Get out of here." And if Sandusky had not left you fight for the kid. And you take that young child and you get him help. You call the POLICE and you report it. Anything else is criminal and cowardly.
When McQuery went to bed that night did he think about the fact Sandusky might have been with another child that night while he was sleeping in his bed? If McQuery had walked in on his own son being raped would he have handled it the same way? If Joe was told his son was the one in the shower with Sandusky would he have simply took it up the chain? If not then what I am saying is these guys were given young men to take care of and protect, teach, coach, mentor and yet they would not even protect a young kid or other young kids from rape. Yeah they really need to be coaching.
There are some things I can see people having a hard time stepping in to. I can see some people turning their heads in certain situations. But we are talking about a rape of a young child right in front of you. And you simply walk away. And Joe when you were told of this you simply told your boss and walked away and washed your hands of it. You never considered the fact he was probably doing this to other kids? And you wish you had done more in hindsight?
It all comes down to these guys careing more about PSU football, their careers, Joes legacy, their position in this world than young kids lives. They didnt want a scandal. They didnt want PSU football to get a black eye. How pathetic. How sad.
There can only be one answer imo. A total cover up to protect the program from a scandal. A total cover up to protect a long time friend and not bring a sandal to their program. In other words PSU football , Jo Pa's legacy , their friendship with Sandusky , was more important than protecting the lives of young children.
As far as McQuery how can he live with himself? You walk in on a rape where a grown man is doing this to a little child. You simply turn and walk away and call your Daddy? You tell Coach the next day. You remain silent for how long? Any decent man would have fought for that young child right there. Right then. "Hey get off of him. What are you doing? Get out of here." And if Sandusky had not left you fight for the kid. And you take that young child and you get him help. You call the POLICE and you report it. Anything else is criminal and cowardly.
When McQuery went to bed that night did he think about the fact Sandusky might have been with another child that night while he was sleeping in his bed? If McQuery had walked in on his own son being raped would he have handled it the same way? If Joe was told his son was the one in the shower with Sandusky would he have simply took it up the chain? If not then what I am saying is these guys were given young men to take care of and protect, teach, coach, mentor and yet they would not even protect a young kid or other young kids from rape. Yeah they really need to be coaching.
There are some things I can see people having a hard time stepping in to. I can see some people turning their heads in certain situations. But we are talking about a rape of a young child right in front of you. And you simply walk away. And Joe when you were told of this you simply told your boss and walked away and washed your hands of it. You never considered the fact he was probably doing this to other kids? And you wish you had done more in hindsight?
It all comes down to these guys careing more about PSU football, their careers, Joes legacy, their position in this world than young kids lives. They didnt want a scandal. They didnt want PSU football to get a black eye. How pathetic. How sad.
Let me just add this. I spent over 20 years in law enforcement. I have seen some of the most horrific cases of child abuse you can imagine. These were not my kids. But it didn't matter. YOU DONT MESS WITH GODS LITTLE ANGELS. You dont mess with kids. They are innocent. Someone has to be there to protect them. I always figured one day I would get fired for beating the living Dog Sh@t out of some animal on one of these calls. Luckily I held it together during these times.
If we dont protect these kids who is? If I walked in on one of your kids being abused or mistreated I promise you it might as well be one of mine. I would hope that you would do the same. There is no excuse in my book. I risked my life many times for people I didnt know and would never meet again. Someone has to care. Someone has to have a heart and care. What grown man can not understand this? Walking away in a situation like this is not an option. Not for anyone with a heart.
Even the most hardend criminals HATE these people. When they go to prison if it is found out they are one of these animals they are tortured and beaten on a routine basis by the inmates. They have to put in in safe keeping for their protection from the other inmates. Maybe these heroes at PSU can be locked up with the child abusers then everyone will be safe.
If we dont protect these kids who is? If I walked in on one of your kids being abused or mistreated I promise you it might as well be one of mine. I would hope that you would do the same. There is no excuse in my book. I risked my life many times for people I didnt know and would never meet again. Someone has to care. Someone has to have a heart and care. What grown man can not understand this? Walking away in a situation like this is not an option. Not for anyone with a heart.
Even the most hardend criminals HATE these people. When they go to prison if it is found out they are one of these animals they are tortured and beaten on a routine basis by the inmates. They have to put in in safe keeping for their protection from the other inmates. Maybe these heroes at PSU can be locked up with the child abusers then everyone will be safe.
Please maintain a level of maturity. There are a lot of good people at Penn State. There are over 50,000 people connected to the university between students, professors, administrators and staff. Almost all of them have nothing to do with what occurred.quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:quote:Originally posted by johnj314:
Penn State Prison...
State Penn
Please maintain a level of maturity. There are a lot of good people at Penn State. There are over 50,000 people connected to the university between students, professors, administrators and staff. Almost all of them have nothing to do with what occurred.quote:Originally posted by igball:
Pedophilia
State
University
quote:Originally posted by RJM:
Please maintain a level of maturity.
Penn State covered up child rape(s) for over a decade, and you're talking to me about maturity?
Penn State will be the butt of derision and jokes for decades. Better get used to it.
After the lawsuits, drying up of funding, and player/student desertions, Penn State will be lucky to survive as a university.
A handful of people were involved. If found guilty they deserve what they get. Paterno won't be going to trial in court. But his legacy has already been doomed in the court of public opinion.quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:quote:Originally posted by RJM:
Please maintain a level of maturity.
Penn State covered up child rape(s) for over a decade, and you're talking to me about maturity?
Penn State will be the butt of derision and jokes for decades. Better get used to it.
After the lawsuits, drying up of funding, and player/student desertions, Penn State will be lucky to survive as a university.
Penn State is a Big Ten research university. It's not an easy acceptance out of high school. It will survive on it's academics. It will be around a long time. I don't have to get used to anything. I don't have an affiliation to the school. I'm just being adult about the situation. I find the pedophilia jokes to be an insult to the real victims of the situation. There's nothing to joke about when there are scarred victims.
The schools rep is going to take a big hit. The football program is dead in the water. And will be for a long time. In fact I dont think they will ever regain the national respect as a football program they had before this incident came to light. There will be a significant drop in students wanting to go there. They will simply not want to be associated with the school. The actions by those students the other night caused PSU immense damage imo. This is much bigger than some realize I believe. There are many students at PSU because of the football program. That will no longer be a factor. In fact it will be the complete reverse.
What do people still think of when they hear UNLV? Tark the Shark and cheaters. How has that Basketball program done since those days? What is the percieved national rep of that school because of that incident? Cheaters. The fact is Penn State football put PSU on the map. It brought in millions of dollars and thousands of students. This is going to hurt in many ways. Much more than some realize imo.
What do people still think of when they hear UNLV? Tark the Shark and cheaters. How has that Basketball program done since those days? What is the percieved national rep of that school because of that incident? Cheaters. The fact is Penn State football put PSU on the map. It brought in millions of dollars and thousands of students. This is going to hurt in many ways. Much more than some realize imo.
quote:Originally posted by RJM:
I'm just being adult about the situation. I find the pedophilia jokes to be an insult to the real victims of the situation. There's nothing to joke about when there are scarred victims.
OK, you have out-outraged me. I can only stay pegged at full-out outrage for so long. I don't recall making "pedophilia jokes".
quote:Originally posted by Coach_May:
This is going to hurt in many ways. Much more than some realize imo.
I think the school (not just the football program) is in a perilous position right now.
Don't play the remaining games, and the school goes into a slow death spiral.
Play the game Saturday, and the outrage gets hotter... the school goes down quicker.
Play the game Sat, and things cool down... the school may survive, barely.
Nebraska and Oklahoma are two programs that come to mind with past serious problems. They rose above it. Yes, the program will take a dip. Chances are they will lose plenty of recruits from this years class. The only thing that will keep the program down is the administration placing a de-emphasis on football.quote:Originally posted by Coach_May:
The schools rep is going to take a big hit. The football program is dead in the water. And will be for a long time. In fact I dont think they will ever regain the national respect as a football program they had before this incident came to light. There will be a significant drop in students wanting to go there. They will simply not want to be associated with the school. The actions by those students the other night caused PSU immense damage imo. This is much bigger than some realize I believe. There are many students at PSU because of the football program. That will no longer be a factor. In fact it will be the complete reverse.
What do people still think of when they hear UNLV? Tark the Shark and cheaters. How has that Basketball program done since those days? What is the percieved national rep of that school because of that incident? Cheaters. The fact is Penn State football put PSU on the map. It brought in millions of dollars and thousands of students. This is going to hurt in many ways. Much more than some realize imo.
Penn State will not lose students. It's hard to get in. They turn away a lot of applicants. It's the best deal in the state for a top education. It's a Big Ten school. Applications may go down a little. Acceptances won't. If football matters to the applicant the in state, affordable options at the D1 level are Pitt and Temple (both part of the state system). No one goes to Temple to watch football. Kids from Philadelphia aren't going to head for Pitt in droves. Happy Valley is an extension of Philadelphia regardless of distance. Pittsburg is the midwest.
Football is a religion with the Penn State crowd. Being one of the largest universities in the world, the PSU Alumni Association is the largest member organization in the world.
I'll bet the program comes back stronger than before. For the last ten years competing programs played the "How do you know Paterno will be around four more years?" card. Now they will bring in a younger coach who will be around for a while. I would imagine former PSU'ers Golden (Miami) and Schiano (Rutgers) would sell their souls to get the job. They've rebuilt disasters at other programs.
quote:It's a Big Ten school.
For now.
If the outrage meter stays hot, the other 9 (err 11) may decide they no longer want to be associated with them.
Per the Posnanski SI article:
quote:3. We are in a top-you world where everyone is not only trying to report something faster but is also trying to report something ANGRIER. One guy wants Joe Paterno to resign, the next wants him to be fired, the next wants him to be fired this minute, the next wants him to be fired and arrested, the next wants him to be fired, arrested and jailed, on and on, until we’ve lost sight of who actually committed the crimes here.
We are still in this phase. Other colleges must show their outrage in some manner... but how?
The Big Ten is trying to expand. They won't throw anyone out. Besides, Penn State plays a lot of other sports.quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:quote:It's a Big Ten school.
For now.
If the outrage meter stays hot, the other 9 may decide they no longer want to be associated with them.
We all know college fans can be brutal. I wonder how the other sports teams will be received. I think they're gonna get hammered, wherever they go, for a long time.
Ohio State is looming next week. That will be a good indicator. I wonder if tv will show it nationally. Whatever happens there will probably happen everywhere (except Penn).
Ohio State is looming next week. That will be a good indicator. I wonder if tv will show it nationally. Whatever happens there will probably happen everywhere (except Penn).
Nebraska and OU were rocked by recruiting scandals and players acting stupid. This situation is totally different and carries a stigma with it on a scale that is way above the others. But we will certainly see what happens.
RJM,
No doubt about it, you are an optimist!
However, don't you think this problem is much bigger than anything that has "ever" happened regarding athletics at any other college?
Kind of makes what happened at Ohio State look like a birthday party in comparison.
Has anyone rebuilt a disaster quite like this one?
Anyway, this really isn't about football. It's much bigger than football. Who can you trust at Penn State? The people in charge are getting fired. I'm betting more heads will roll. Then there will likely be some left hanging around that escaped the investigation.
No doubt about it, you are an optimist!
However, don't you think this problem is much bigger than anything that has "ever" happened regarding athletics at any other college?
Kind of makes what happened at Ohio State look like a birthday party in comparison.
Has anyone rebuilt a disaster quite like this one?
Anyway, this really isn't about football. It's much bigger than football. Who can you trust at Penn State? The people in charge are getting fired. I'm betting more heads will roll. Then there will likely be some left hanging around that escaped the investigation.
You know a topic is hot when the self-righteous get on a roll.
Fact is, schools get painted (unfairly) by a broad brush. University of Miami is a great school but for years went by the name "Thug U". Guess what, they earned it by the choices some made by whom they selected to play football for them.
Regarding PSU, you have top officials covering up pedophia. You have students causing a riot because a coach who was part of the cover-up was finally let go. You have some trustees that I'll my last dollar, knew about this problem years ago and did absolutely nothing. You have reports that the perpetrator was "pimping out the victims" to big dollar donors. I could go on.
Save your self-righteousness RJ, PSU earned the derision and the fact that some get painted with the broad brush is actually part of the cleansing process.
Fact is, schools get painted (unfairly) by a broad brush. University of Miami is a great school but for years went by the name "Thug U". Guess what, they earned it by the choices some made by whom they selected to play football for them.
Regarding PSU, you have top officials covering up pedophia. You have students causing a riot because a coach who was part of the cover-up was finally let go. You have some trustees that I'll my last dollar, knew about this problem years ago and did absolutely nothing. You have reports that the perpetrator was "pimping out the victims" to big dollar donors. I could go on.
Save your self-righteousness RJ, PSU earned the derision and the fact that some get painted with the broad brush is actually part of the cleansing process.
There were shootings and rape.quote:Originally posted by Coach_May:
Nebraska and OU were rocked by recruiting scandals and players acting stupid. This situation is totally different and carries a stigma with it on a scale that is way above the others. But we will certainly see what happens.
quote:Originally posted by RJM:
The Big Ten is trying to expand. They won't throw anyone out. Besides, Penn State plays a lot of other sports.
I hope that the Big Tweleven throws them out. It'll save the WCHA and CCHA.
I'm a big believer you can always follow the money trail when digging to the bottom of a situation. Big time football revenue got Penn State into this situation. Continued pursuit of that revenue will motivate digging out of the hole. I also believe the powerful elements of a huge alumni association will demand a return to excellence. These are people who often have input into who becomes president of the university.quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
RJM,
No doubt about it, you are an optimist!
However, don't you think this problem is much bigger than anything that has "ever" happened regarding athletics at any other college?
Kind of makes what happened at Ohio State look like a birthday party in comparison.
Has anyone rebuilt a disaster quite like this one?
Anyway, this really isn't about football. It's much bigger than football. Who can you trust at Penn State? The people in charge are getting fired. I'm betting more heads will roll. Then there will likely be some left hanging around that escaped the investigation.
The irony of this story is I was going to start a thread to discuss the money and it's effect on college sports. I'll wait until this story settles down a little so there will be more thought and less emotion.
I'm not being self righteous. I'm not connected to Penn State. I'm staying level headed and avoiding an emotional overreaction. I believe Penn State will clean house and reload.quote:Originally posted by igball:
You know a topic is hot when the self-righteous get on a roll.
Fact is, schools get painted (unfairly) by a broad brush. University of Miami is a great school but for years went by the name "Thug U". Guess what, they earned it by the choices some made by whom they selected to play football for them.
Regarding PSU, you have top officials covering up pedophia. You have students causing a riot because a coach who was part of the cover-up was finally let go. You have some trustees that I'll my last dollar, knew about this problem years ago and did absolutely nothing. You have reports that the perpetrator was "pimping out the victims" to big dollar donors. I could go on.
Save your self-righteousness RJ, PSU earned the derision and the fact that some get painted with the broad brush is actually part of the cleansing process.
quote:Originally posted by RJM:
I'm staying level headed and avoiding an emotional overreaction.
I suspect there will be some overlap in the timing of everyone's reactions.
Everyone who is on this thread needs to carefully read this Grand Jury report on the matter-
http://www.freep.com/assets/freep/pdf/C4181508116.PDF
This will follow and tarnish Pennsylvania State University for an entire generation if not longer
http://www.freep.com/assets/freep/pdf/C4181508116.PDF
This will follow and tarnish Pennsylvania State University for an entire generation if not longer
RJM I am aware of the incidents the players were in. Just like in almost every big time football program. Heck Cam Newton had his issues at UF. Stole a lap top and threw it out a dorm window when the cops came a calling. "Child Abuse" Showering down a little boy - Covering it up - By not reported it to the Police he continues to go about his business of "Child Molestation."
It crosses the line so far it is off the scale. When a kid comes home from OU his boys don't care if someone got in trouble for a bar fight or shooting a firearm at someone who was trying to jack their car stereo. But if that program is the poster child for "Child Molestation" when the image of the PSU program is a former coach showering down a child while a coach see's it and nothing is done thats on a totally different scale. Who is going to walk around in their PSU hoody now? Who is going to go back home and say proudly "Hey I signed with Penn State!" "Man are you serious? You signed with those clowns?"
The image has changed. The landscape has changed. Its on a level we have never seen before.
It crosses the line so far it is off the scale. When a kid comes home from OU his boys don't care if someone got in trouble for a bar fight or shooting a firearm at someone who was trying to jack their car stereo. But if that program is the poster child for "Child Molestation" when the image of the PSU program is a former coach showering down a child while a coach see's it and nothing is done thats on a totally different scale. Who is going to walk around in their PSU hoody now? Who is going to go back home and say proudly "Hey I signed with Penn State!" "Man are you serious? You signed with those clowns?"
The image has changed. The landscape has changed. Its on a level we have never seen before.
I find the situation tragic. I did give thought to the thousands of innocent people connected to the situation by being part of the Penn State community. Whether they deserve it or not, all athletes at Penn State will be looked at a certain way for a while. I'm glad my son chose a different Big Ten school.quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:quote:Originally posted by RJM:
I'm staying level headed and avoiding an emotional overreaction.
I suspect there will be some overlap in the timing of everyone's reactions.
I have no connection to PSU. I am not emotional about the future of the football program at all. I am a little emotional about those kids though. I also have been around big time college baseball for many years. I know many college baseball coaches. I have seen recruiting take hits for years at some schools because of incidents that are not even on the scale compared to this. I know kids who will not even look at certain schools because of things we as adults would never even think about.
What happened at PSU is on a scale of atomic bomb proportions. The bomb has went off. The radiation will linger around for decades to come. The football program will not reload. No kid with options in the big 10 will want to be associated with the stigma "radiation" that is going to linger for years and years to come. They NCAA can't do anything to PSU. It would be like dropping a water balloon on Hiroshima after the A-Bomb went off.
What happened at PSU is on a scale of atomic bomb proportions. The bomb has went off. The radiation will linger around for decades to come. The football program will not reload. No kid with options in the big 10 will want to be associated with the stigma "radiation" that is going to linger for years and years to come. They NCAA can't do anything to PSU. It would be like dropping a water balloon on Hiroshima after the A-Bomb went off.
I stated I believe this year's recruiting class will take a big hit. Losing a recruiting year has it's consequences down the line. But I believe putting the right coach in place makes a recruit part of the new Penn State. It's still Big Ten football and an avenue to the NFL.quote:Who is going to go back home and say proudly "Hey I signed with Penn State!" "Man are you serious? You signed with those clowns?"
I'm watching to see what Skyler Mornhingwig does. He verballed with Penn State. His father is not going to allow him to make a bad decision and blow his pro potential. His father will have good access to inside information through the football grapevine. Obviously the family has to be re-evaluating the situation. At one point he was leaning towards Stanford. I'll bet they've called this week.