Should academics ALWAYS come first?

i'm sorry for missing the big picture here. i thought the young mans dream was pro baseball.

either way, my point is you don't get to be a pro player because you WANT to. only if they want you. even with hard work there is no promise there. but you can choose to be a college graduate.

it is a choice the young man should make, unless it's the wrong one.

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While I do believe that in the end it is a package question...All other things being equal...

...herein lies the central question..not the value of the baseball or the baseball dream per se...if they are really talnted they will likley get a shot...

...but your personal insight into the relative value ranking of...academic reputation, grades, degree, or education for your son's future.

While this is not an either or question exclusively...Some see grades as a measure of value, a way to keep score, and get ahead. Others see a degree in an immediately employable arena as the real goal. Others see prestige and contacts as the best way to insure a future. Some see education in a different ore classical way, that an ability to think and express and discern is the real goal.

The problem is that we/our sons will not know which move was right for them for 25 years. Stick around.

44
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I'm jumping in here no matter who doesn't like it.
My son just signed his 1st contract after graduating from a small D1 in SC.
He had several offers in the US but he signed with an Interntional company with locations all over the world. He starts on Monday.
Not one of the companies cared about the school . They did care about his marks and everyone asked about his adventures in BB. That includes the 3 top Fortune 500 companies that offered him a job. They cared about how he did in college. In every job he had tough competition.
I hope you take my opinion in the manner it is intended. Enjoy the college experience above all other things.
I forgot he negotiated his starting pay and they upped their offer.

quote:

Do you on this board thinks it means anything as to where you go as far as the persons future and connections , job market etc?

Connections can matter and help a lot. The largest membership association in the world is the Penn State Alumni Association. I know people who got jobs that started by a conversation in a social setting acknowledging they both went to PSU.

If two people interview for a job and the competition is close, who do you think gets the job? The candidate who went to the same college as the future potential boss or the candidate who didn't.

My best connection was the reputation of the first company I worked for. I won out over fierce competition. My bosses son attended the same college I did. I doubt it was 100% coincidence.

On the other hand it is possible to get a degree from Whatsamattah U and kick down doors.

Regardless of college, employers who employ people in competitive situations like sales prefer former athletes and military people. It's two kinds of people who thrive on winning, understand the protocols of leadership and don't understand the meaning of the word "lose."

quote:

Originally posted by observer44:

The problem is that we/our sons will not know which move was right for them for 25 years. Stick around.

44
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I graduated on The Director's List for Business from a private school twenty five years ago. I worked my way up to managing a team of thirty high paid technical analysts at a large corporation. The organization was restructured and I have been looking for work for over a year and a half now. As we all know, there are no guarantees. Life constantly provides new opportunities to prove yourself over and over again.

"...stick around" Sure hope so.

quote:

Scott said after he got his law degree and started interviewing at the big firms in Chicago and New York that all anyone ever wanted to talk about was the fact he played baseball in college and the pros. Go figure...

I have heard that from him and others, how much playing college baseball can effect your resume as well.That many employers like college athletes as they have great timemanagement skills and the work ethic etc.

This has been a great thread.And the best thing about this thread is nobody got inflamed.Just great contributions, different points of views.Some great posts by all. Well done HSBBWebbers.

What's got me thinking here is that maybe Swampboy (and lots of others) get challenged by the shift in direction...or the shift in plan...that is happening to his son because of his baseball success. It might be fair to say that 4 years ago, in 8th grade, Swampboy would have NEVER imagined that his son would have chosen a light load at a "good" but not "great" school so that he could focus on baseball and even have a glimmer of a chance of making it to the big time.

So, the question might be that if we allow or encourage our kids to change direction from the "original plan" are we compromising our objectives? Assuming our number one objective as parents has always been to educate our kids?

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
Regardless of college, employers who employ people in competitive situations like sales prefer former athletes and military people. It's two kinds of people who thrive on winning, understand the protocols of leadership and don't understand the meaning of the word "lose."

RJM,

I can't argue with that statement. As I said earlier, I left school early and unfortunately never completed my degree. To make a long story short, after starting at the bottom of the totem pole at a major insurance company, I was given the opportunity to open my own agency after four years. A degree was/is required, however, the local District Manager fought to have that rule waived for me. His argument to our Home Office sales staff was that my experience in the regional office would be valuable in the agency force. Apparently, he just liked my jumpshot and the way I competed in a local mens basketball league. The fact that I played baseball for a few years in college was icing on the cake. I still remember my initial interview with him twenty years ago, the Sales/District Manager told me that he preferred former athletes. He went on to say something very similar to RJM's above quote.

I've been with the same company the past twenty-three plus years as an employee and agency owner, and that's pretty uncommon for my generation. I tell my kids frequently that my situation is not the norm these days, and there's been plenty of times that I wish that I stuck it out and finished school. I tell them Yes, it's possible to succeed without a degree in our country. But I remind them often that if my company decided to change to 1-800-insurance and dismiss the agency force, I'd be in big trouble...and being a former athlete won't help one bit, but a degree in my back pocket more than likely would! I apologize if I went a little off topic, but it's still in line with "Should academics ALWAYS come first?"...and my answer will always be Yes, but with a Bryce Harper bonus disclaimer!

Whoa!!! I have little to say about whether or not a student should go to this school or that, but when njbb and others agreed that a farmer is no better off with or without a degree, you hit a nerve!!

I suggest you take a trip to your local dairy, beef, row crop (the vegetables you eat each day), fruit, nut, wheat, corn or other farm. Chances are you will find a person with a bachelors at the least, and perhaps a masters or a Phd in some form of agriculture. Or perhaps it is a business degree.
Ask them where they went to school - Cornell, Purdue, Ohio State, U of MN, U of WI, UC, U of Washington, Iowa, Iowa State, Illinois, Texas, K-State just to name a few.

He or she aslo has on staff or contracts with a nutritionist (animals eat WAY better than most people, and their ration is adjusted to suit their body type and weight), a veterinarian, a pest control advisor, etc etc (and those are the jsut the start of the folks who have the masters and Phd's to even have the start of enough knowledge to do this job.

Then there are people like me, who supply farmers with the "stuff" they need to produce the highest quality, safest food suppply in the world. We have at least bachelors if not masters, Phds and other post - grad work.

I know this is totally off topic, but any chance I get to inform about how complex ag is, how science has impacted it, and how students of it are learning more and more about care for the environment, care for animals, and people and business management, I do it.

Remember, support the American farmer, don't scoff at him or her, they feed you, your family, your town, and your country. Lose the ability to feed ourselves (without buying our food from China) and we lose the last stronghold we have on security. And who knows how that food is grown or what's put on it??

The American farmer that feeds your family is no longer Mr. Greenjeans, more like Dr. Carhart or Wrangler.


Now then, carry on.

Like others have said, I don't believe that that grades and playing are mutually exclusive.

Academics has been emphasized in my household since day one. It doesn't matter how talented a player may be. All it takes is one Stephen Strassborg incident in AA ball and your kid is done. I've known more than a few ballplayers that have had this happen. I had one friend, a lefty playing AA ball, rip his shoulder up moving furnature of all things. Two surguries later and one comback try and he was out of baseball. I have another friend that couldn't make it past AA because of back issues. He is playing independent league ball now but has stated that he is pretty close to hanging up the cleats for good, at least professionally.

There is too much chance involved in baseball to just use it as your primary focus. A smart, well rounded athelete has a much better chance of not only adapting to the changing aspects of the game but also to the outside if and when his playing days are done. Lets face facts, even the best ballplayers rarely play the game past the age of 35. Very few go beyond 40. That means that even if a young man defies the odds and makes it all the way to the majors he probably will have 10-15 years tops before he is forced to do something else.

No, not all ballpayers need to go to a top tiered Ivy League university but I do believe that all ballplayers need to develop an interest that will serve them well if baseball doesn't pan out for them.

I like to remember the old saying, 'Remember that you are closer to your last day playing than you are to your first day.' Most kids don't know when that last day is coming so they need to be prepared for that eventual day.

Better late than never.

Just like every kid is not a top notch D1 player, not every student is Ivy league student. And, just like baseball, each kid should attend the academic school that fits his level of intelligence and/or desire and make the best of it.

The first step is to get the degree. That will help you get the job. If baseball and alumni help getting the job, great choice of school. When you get the job, if you, the State U. grad out performs the Ivy grad, I would think the State U. grad gets the promotion. Just like baseball.

My bottom line is attend the school where the combination of baseball and academics don't drive you crazy and do the best you can at both.

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Would agree...absolutely get a degree...

but baseball is simply a great/the best second major...

...it is most often seen as exclusive, respected, ultra competitive, full of contacts, provider of references, prover of charcater and work ethic...

And frankly if you go to State U and excel at both you can impresively fill up a resume with academic/athletic accolades which are invaluable in getting inteviews.

44
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A few thoughts.

do academics come first? lets look at things. Talent level. Now if you are a high draft choice out of high school being offered a big bonus with also a scholarship then you can debate. I know of guys who did it both ways. Out of high school did not go to school bounced around the minors released and starting from scratch. out of high school went to college got a degree drafted bounced around minors released had something to fall back on. For every guy in the major leagues there are hundreds who did not make it. With that said it is wise to know the odds going in and be smart about it.

When this discussion comes up, I always think of a guy that have have worked with for the last 6 years.

He played college baseball back in the 1980s - but his approach is one that I think would work today - he simply has two degrees - one in general studies (his "baseball degree") and the other in Electrical Engineering from a top 10 engineering school.

What he did was take all of the pre reqs for his engineering degree over his first three years of college - and then a couple of engineering classes his senior year. After finishing his senior year and deciding not to go pro, he transferred to the engineering school and finished his engineering degree in 1.5 years. He then transferred units back to his baseball school and got his BA in General Studies. When you look at his resume, it shows two degrees awarded in the same month at universities 1000 miles apart.

Hasn't hurt him at all professionally - he is making good money, has had a series of interesting jobs with good employers, and continues to advance in our company.

The bottom line in telling this story is that baseball, in his case, did come first - but that he had a plan from the beginning to work towards a EE degree - and he stuck to that plan. Yes it took 5.5 years to graduate - but in the process he got to play the game he loved for four more years - making some all league teams and going to the CWS. So it can be done.

08

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
Regardless of college, employers who employ people in competitive situations like sales prefer former athletes and military people. It's two kinds of people who thrive on winning, understand the protocols of leadership and don't understand the meaning of the word "lose."

I'm kinda' liking this post.

Mikamom is correct Farming is a science today.
I have a friend who did his undergrad at Pen state and his masters. He is a millionaire who made his fortune in (legal) mushrooms. Pen was the only college at the time that offered a degree in mushrooms.

Great Discussion. I have more questions than answers in this area.

I agree with Will that the first time the question might arise is in High School. If drafted and signed to a University, which option to choose? Once the decision to attend college (either because not drafted or because fit of mlb team was not right) for me the equation changes. There are places for a person to play ball, hone baseball skills while not attending college.

I am struck by the thought that by preaching "academics first" we might be undercutting the dreams of playing professionally. I don't think there is a son/player who is referred to on this board who doesn't still harbor the dream of being paid for playing baseball. For some, the chances are almost non-existent, some slim, some they've got a shot,some they are a sure thing. Where any particular player falls is somewhat subjective. My son is playing at college. For him "academics first" is the right way to go.

When we speak we talk about classes and baseball. In what order probably depends upon the time of year. I always say my kids get a look on their faces when they are engaged in an activity about which they are truly passionate. The baseball field is where I see that look most often with my son. I never want to discourage him from pursuing a career working in an arena where he can feel that passion on a regular basis.

Just some thoughts...

Both Baseball and Academics are important. No one is likely to change what is the driving force in an individual.

I've never believed in odds when it comes to baseball. If everyone were to make their decision based on the odds, we might not have enough Major League Players to field a team. Someone has to buck the odds. I always look at the odds as something that every individual has to beat.

Also, the earlier the round a player is drafted and the more money they have invested in that player... The odds get much better.

Anyone should do better academically if they didn't play any sport in college. So if academics are that important, it would be wise to stay away from athletics. However, there's something very special about a player that can excell as a student and as an athlete. Even being a college athlete who stays eligible is quite an accomplishment.

Just being a good student doesn't mean enough to me. Can he get along with others? Can he work on a team? Will he be loyal? Will he be a positive addition? Will he get dirty? Does he have the right attitude? The degree doesn't give us the answers to many of those type questions, but perhaps the athletic involvement (pro or college) does.

quote:

Originally posted by Swampboy:
The situation 08Dad describes sounds like the kind of outcome my son might be happy with, except he'd settle for one degree. The school he'll attend has a generous tuition policy for athletes after their eligibility is used up, and he has mentioned the possibility of switching to a harder major when he's done playing baseball.

Just to be clear - the second degree was basically an accident - he looked at the graduation requirements and figured the cost of sending a transcript and filling out the paperwork was trivial...

As the parent of two very high-achieving students, I agree with Swampboy and LHPMom2012. I think sometimes "academics first" is the politically correct thing to say around here!

I think it's a false choice.

At any level of academics, you can find any level of baseball.

Find the school that fits you in both departments and go after it.

Basically in the OP, the message is that the player does not put a high value on a degree right now, much less a degree from an elite institution. If that is so, he is not terribly likely to succeed in that environment anyway. If he were on my team, I would listen to that message and work with the boy to line up a school where he could get the value of some progress on a degree without flunking out. That way, maybe baseball would prove to be the motivator to get him more education than he otherwise might've gotten done while young.

We forget, a whole lot of kids start college straight out of HS only because they've always been told it's what they were supposed to do. The fall in love with beer or what not and end up out of school.

So here's a kid who, because of baseball, is going to stay after it for 3 years. If the pro thing doesn't work out on that schedule, he might well end up staying for 4 years, or even 5 if he has to redshirt. He might finish. At worst, he is in a position where he could at least be within reach of finishing his bachelor's degree later in life, when baseball is done and he discovers employers want to see that degree on the resume.

To me it would be a mistake to push that kid to a tougher school where he might struggle both on and off the field, have to transfer, find himself sitting out a year, and maybe fall off track in both departments.

We say "academics first" because the professional baseball roadside is littered with the carcases of former phenoms. I say, you can pursue the dream and not compromise your education. But at the same time, the education needs to fit the particular student, not someone else. You can compromise the education by overshooting the target, just as you can in undershooting it.

Midlo Dad,

Great post!!!

Locally, kids who were drafted and IMO signing was the right choice. Primarily, because they were not especially good students in HS. Others who signed were tremendous students in HS and again it was the right choice. It was the right choice because they will probabaly beat the MLB odds and will use MLB money to complete their education.

In the boys case, a number of teams had expressed interest during the summer and fall. As parents.we did not want to be the "bad guy" and force our will on what direction he should choose. Fortunately a late growth spurt(2")the winter of his senior year pretty well set the tone for the 2010 draft.

As parents, we're grateful that we were not put into a position of having to weigh the pros and cons between school and the milb. Academics, simply put are academic. You can make what you want of the opportunity. Take challenging courses that will prepare you for a career, or courses that will assure you can maintain elegibility. In the boys case, school has been the perfect choice. He loves the experience and to date is thriving. Moreover. I'am positive, he would have been one of 94% who would not have completed their degree, after 5 or 6 years within the milb system.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikamom:
Whoa!!! I have little to say about whether or not a student should go to this school or that, but when njbb and others agreed that a farmer is no better off with or without a degree, you hit a nerve!!

I suggest you take a trip to your local dairy, beef, row crop (the vegetables you eat each day), fruit, nut, wheat, corn or other farm. Chances are you will find a person with a bachelors at the least, and perhaps a masters or a Phd in some form of agriculture. Or perhaps it is a business degree.
Ask them where they went to school - Cornell, Purdue, Ohio State, U of MN, U of WI, UC, U of Washington, Iowa, Iowa State, Illinois, Texas, K-State just to name a few.

He or she aslo has on staff or contracts with a nutritionist (animals eat WAY better than most people, and their ration is adjusted to suit their body type and weight), a veterinarian, a pest control advisor, etc etc (and those are the jsut the start of the folks who have the masters and Phd's to even have the start of enough knowledge to do this job.

Then there are people like me, who supply farmers with the "stuff" they need to produce the highest quality, safest food suppply in the world. We have at least bachelors if not masters, Phds and other post - grad work.

I know this is totally off topic, but any chance I get to inform about how complex ag is, how science has impacted it, and how students of it are learning more and more about care for the environment, care for animals, and people and business management, I do it.

Remember, support the American farmer, don't scoff at him or her, they feed you, your family, your town, and your country. Lose the ability to feed ourselves (without buying our food from China) and we lose the last stronghold we have on security. And who knows how that food is grown or what's put on it??

The American farmer that feeds your family is no longer Mr. Greenjeans, more like Dr. Carhart or Wrangler.


Now then, carry on.[/Q

First of all my father and grand father were farmers and I continue to farm the land that has been in the family for 100 years, They were self taught men, you can be educated with out a degree.

This is an interesting question.

My older brother (long ago) played college ball on scholarship at the CC and D1 level.

His CC coach was honest and told him that he was a AA player at best, from that point on, he more or less concentrated on academics but let baseball pay the bills.

During his Senior year, he needed surgery to remove bone chips from his elbow and was unable to play but he still graduated.

He has been very successful in his field of study ever since.

YMMV

MY CHOICE for my son was to go to an Ivy League school. He had the stats, grades, and SAT's.

But, it wasn't HIS dream. He chose to put baseball 1st and based on who recruited him made the choice by fit, offer of playing time @ his position, location, coaches and everything else that goes into making that decision. It's worked out great, he's loving college, playing good competition, and most importantly getting a good education.

So just because we as parents have dreams for their lives it is ultimately up to them to succeed wherever they choose to play and attend college.

(And maybe he'll listen to me about a post grad degree and let me pick the school! Ha!)

re our side discussion: njbb - Ok I will buy what you are saying in your situation, just like in the situations we are discussing in the main part of this thread - what works for one doesn't for another. But I will stick with my argument that ag is science and grant a lot of art and frankly luck. You may be the farmer that plants and harvests, but who grew the seed and developed the hybrid? Who figured out the best no-till system? Who figures the rations? If you do all that and have top notch production on your farm, production that cannot be bettered, then my hats off to you. I just find it disheartening when people throw the occupation of farming under the bus and make it sound like farmers are a bunch of uneducated folks. My point is that there are plenty of people who are very well educated in farming, and there are too many people who think their food comes from the grocery store, period with no thought to the work and thought that goes into feeding the country and the world. Most of the time, it is the fault of the ag industry itself to educate people about the safe, reliable food growing we do!!! You are in New Jersey, I am in CA, there are definitely regional differences in methodology. So lets not fuss over education, although I think you are going to HAVE to have a degree of some kind to survive in the future even in your area. Let it be known that however it comes, you have to be @#$% smart to be a farmer!

We guide, encourage, manipulate to a certain degree, point in a certain direction and assist - etc etc etc - But there reaches a point where your child has to decide. They have to follow their dreams. They have to follow the path that they choose. We can force them to follow our dreams for them but they will ultimately choose their own path.

What did we do? The exact same thing.

We all want our children to be successful at what they love to do. And we all want our children to be successful in life at whatever it is they end up doing. And we all want our children to be happy. You will raise them and then they will want to fly on their own. They will want to fly in a direction some times you don't think they should fly. But guess what they are going to go off on the path that they choose. And we will be there when they crash, stumble and we will be there when they soar as well. That is life.

You can control many things for a few years. And then you will have to trust you have instilled some things that will assist them on their journey. Because you will not be able to control what they do when they decide its time for them to fly on their own. If you fight that you will find a tough road.

Dreams are what life is all about. Seeing your child chase a dream is a wonderful thing. Knowing that they want something and they are willing to fight for it is a wonderful thing. Sometimes those dreams come true. And sometimes along the way the dreams change into other dreams and quests in life. As long as your in the game your in the game. As long as you are still in the fight you still got a shot. And sometimes that's all that really matters. And when they do indeed hang up the spikes and move on to other dreams they can attack those dreams with the same determination and focus they attacked this game with.

Each kid is different and every situation is different. But as long as your kid has dreams that's a very good thing indeed. JMHO

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Leave it to coach may to take this thread to another level...

44

Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.
Eleanor Roosevelt

Absolutely. Perfect, Coach May.
"Dreams are what life is all about. Seeing your child chase a dream is a wonderful thing. Knowing that they want something and they are willing to fight for it is a wonderful thing. Sometimes those dreams come true. And sometimes along the way the dreams change into other dreams and quests in life. As long as your in the game your in the game. As long as you are still in the fight you still got a shot. And sometimes that's all that really matters. And when they do indeed hang up the spikes and move on to other dreams they can attack those dreams with the same determination and focus they attacked this game with. "
That's all there is!

I enjoyed reading this discussion. Lots of great insight and perspectives.

Academics belong to the student. The grade reflects the work. There is nothing subjective about it.

Athletics are subjective. In baseball, coaches and/or scouts can look at a player and not like him. Forget stats, championships, leadership qualities...it's enough to not be liked for whatever reason that potentially could end a career.

For this simple reason, academics must supercede sports when making decisions that pertain to both, IMHO.

Great topic and fantastic responses.

I'm in a role where very often I recruit and hire young adults straight out of college. I look at GPA, course of study, and degree. However, I also pay a great deal of attention to athletic or club involvement. Experience tells me that a 4-year athlete who has maintained a respectable GPA, makes for a quality individual in the business world. This young adult knows adversity, discipline, and dedication that is not easily found in a graduate who was not a student athlete. These individuals are generally goal oriented and are able to manage themselves with little to no involvement from others. I'm not saying that these qualities only exist in student athletes, but as a whole, they do tend to be more prevalent.

I have a son that will soon be taking that same plunge and I can only hope that he chases his dream. Granted, I hope that he does so with respect to his education. I would be lying if I said that I'm not living through him somewhat vicariously, but so long as I keep steering him in the right direction and I'm there to dust him off when he lands face first, he'll be just fine.

Best of luck to Swampboy. Keep us updated.

Observer44, you have a PM

Recently my son met an ex milb player who is now a Doctor. Son asked when did you start studying for med school. The doctor replied the day my college asked me to change my major to liberal arts to remain eligible.

He proceeded to share his words of wisdom with my son that worked for him. He pursued BOTH dreams knowing that if he made it in baseball he still would have another dream to live after baseball.

I like the idea of pursuing dreams with all you have and then as things develop one modifies the plan.

In todays world one needs plan A, B, and C. For me I have always second guessed my decision to chase the $$$ rather than my dream and passion. Looking back although I am highly successful I feel that given the choice again I would have gone for the dream and then see what happened. There is a lot we learn about ourselves when we want something real bad.

In other words I will take those odds as long as I have a plan B.

I also want to add that sports provides situations, pressures, and competition that one can not get from the classroom. This to me is the million dollar value of college and sports that helps those young players excel in the real world and makes them that much more in demand once they have their degree.

Depends on what one wants out of life.
Fungo

its already started with us... son is a soph. He has gotten some interest from a Juco... which is nice.. very nice. It has a great baseball program.

When the time comes and after we talk to several people we will make the decision in large part on whether he has the potential to be drafted. If he does not he will probably go on to an engineering school which has a weak D2 baseball program. I have read many times on here that it might not be possible to play high level baseball and major in engineering.. so for son we will be making pretty much an either/or decision when he goes off to college as a freshman.

bothsportsdad,

I understand your situation all too well. In our region of the country it is very difficult to find a very good D1/D2/D3 baseball program that also has a very good, broad & deep engineering program that is not in the SEC or ACC. My son had talked to many people about this topic over the last two years. We ended up looking at a different region of the country to find our fit.

It is possible to play on a good baseball program and study engineering, however there will be very little social life. It is a difficult combination, but there are programs out there. Keep looking and keep talking to folks. The perfect fit is out there, you just have to keep looking.

There are a variety of Engineering Schools in VA, some are not in the ACC/SEC nor have baseball programs.

Ashford University

DeVry University

Strayer University

Herzing University

ITT Technical Institute

Virginia Commonwealth University

James Madison University

Have you thought about Jr College for two years taking the general admin courses and playing ball
and then making another decision about engineering and baseball?