Orlando: 
quote:by Will: 98% of the time these kids are just average or below? Well then how can you describe these teams as Elite?
well, when ya order the uni-shirts & have a choice between - "Southside Barely-Average" or "Southside Elite", which would YOU choose??
& which would be more likely to attract players & parents?
Sorry Will. I wasn't calling Elite, just passing on what I've seen them called. Do we realize just how many Elite players there are in the country.
According to parents and travel team players and coaches, I'm sure the numbers are in the millions.
According to those who spend time around the game, I imagine its in the low thousands.
If we're talking able to make pro ball elite its even less than that.
I just feel that Political Correctness was an early starter to this trend. Before we got too even handed and forgot competition at our rec league level, the competition and instruction was just fine there.
According to parents and travel team players and coaches, I'm sure the numbers are in the millions.
According to those who spend time around the game, I imagine its in the low thousands.
If we're talking able to make pro ball elite its even less than that.
I just feel that Political Correctness was an early starter to this trend. Before we got too even handed and forgot competition at our rec league level, the competition and instruction was just fine there.
The best way to tell how good a travel team is how many of their players go on to play college or pro ball .
I did a check up on player whose dad threw a ton of $$$ on his kids baseball before he even played high school baseball. Lessons with former MLB players, travel teams, camps.
Did it pay off?
Cut from first southern college Div 2, Transfered to another Div 1 up north.
2 for 12 in the one year he played college baseball.
I did a check up on player whose dad threw a ton of $$$ on his kids baseball before he even played high school baseball. Lessons with former MLB players, travel teams, camps.
Did it pay off?
Cut from first southern college Div 2, Transfered to another Div 1 up north.
2 for 12 in the one year he played college baseball.
you are right AND wrong -quote:by ric: I just feel that Political Correctness was an early starter to this trend
PC drove folks away from community "rec" programs where players rotated positions each game, some kids got 5 strikes, & no score was kept.
2 dingers & 10 warning track outs??quote:by (let me be) Frank: Did it pay off? 2 for 12 one year he played college baseball
Travel is the way to go if you are baseball knowledgeable and your son is above average or beyond. And...if the coach is acceptable and schedule is doable.
As an example my son graduated in a class with 5 D1 scholarships. All 5 got great rides...Texas, Florida State, Coastal Carolina,Villanova and Illinois State (has since transferred to Missouri).
The FSU and Coastal kids played travel ball from 10 on up. The other 3 joined them at 14.
At some point, whether it's 10 or 14 I believe you must try and compete with and against the best. This is not always possible depending on where you live.
There are a ton of variable's such as the level of play locally in LL or Pony etc. and the availability of a solid travel program in your area.
By the way,in our experience about 50% of the 10-15 year old travel players went on to receive ships while about 80-90% of the 16-18 year old travel players did.
As an example my son graduated in a class with 5 D1 scholarships. All 5 got great rides...Texas, Florida State, Coastal Carolina,Villanova and Illinois State (has since transferred to Missouri).
The FSU and Coastal kids played travel ball from 10 on up. The other 3 joined them at 14.
At some point, whether it's 10 or 14 I believe you must try and compete with and against the best. This is not always possible depending on where you live.
There are a ton of variable's such as the level of play locally in LL or Pony etc. and the availability of a solid travel program in your area.
By the way,in our experience about 50% of the 10-15 year old travel players went on to receive ships while about 80-90% of the 16-18 year old travel players did.
2 singles, which was about $15,000 a hit which daddy blew on the kid. Should have spent it on a sprint coach, with the 8 plus 60 yard time
FRANK/ANDY
Who are you to determine how parents spend their money on their kids----are you a parent?
Who are you to determine how parents spend their money on their kids----are you a parent?
quote:Originally posted by 55mom:
These LLs on ESPN are on closed bases. Holding a runner on and not balking is a huge skill set. Stealing - good base running in general - is simply hard to come by. These kids are good ball players, and now they are going to have to relearn part of the game in only one season.
You're overestimating the ability to learn this stuff. By the time the kids hit the big field at thirteen coaches are dealing with a lot of natural athletes. On my 13U travel team several hadn't played with leads before. It came naturally. Then it was just a matter of learning the nuances to be even better. At thirteen, pitchers don't need great pickoff moves. They only need to learn how to mix up their looks to get the runner to come to a stop.
quote:One more example is playing the outfield. In rec ball where everyone is accepted, the outfielders are usually not the better players - mainly because they could get hurt in the infield. In HS they need to be fast and agressive. So if a kid is moved from ss to of, they may feel insulted, (which happens all the time) plus they don't have the skills necessary to play the ball.
My son was moved to rightfield in 14U travel this year. He's a middle infielder. The reason for the move is we discovered as the kids get bigger, stronger and hit the ball harder, he handles the slice to right better than anyone on the team. He's not insulted. He's a team player. He's about winning. He's in the lineup. He also knows when all the best players get to high school ball, the kids who can play outfield have an advantage when everyone else tries out for infield.
Also, how hard and far the ball is hit when kids are preteens versus how it's hit on the big field when they are older makes having played the outfield on the small fields irrelevant.
quote:I'm not saying that little Johnny needs to be traveling at coach pitch, though it's out there, but kids need at least two seasons of real ball before hgh school
That's 13U and 14U on the big field. My son played about twenty travel games a year of 9U to 12U travel. It was for fun and more games in additional to LL. I didn't have any developmental expectations due to the small field.
quote:Originally posted by play baseball:
My youngest daughter's softball team (10U) last year was good. They played in 108 games, including 11 tournaments and two national tourneys. Two national tournaments back to back is ridiculous and although I was very against it, I did not want to be the only parent to say that my daughter would not play. I would do so now, though. Her team had won all of the tourneys except the national ones, but came in 8 and 5 place in each of those and was the last remaining Midwest or east coast team. Please. I am not bragging about that. My point is that these little girls were all competitors, they loved to play and win, but playing the local teams was not fun for them. Beating a team 20-something to 1 or 2 was not fun, it was painful. It was a waste of time and very discouraging and dejecting for the other team...although had either of the coaches done what my boys' coach had done and taught the girls the game there would have been a purpose for it.
Playing 108 games at 10U is way too much. In the growth years this is risking injury from physical burnout. It's not a matter of competition. It's not a matter of searching the country for competion. They should have played up to 12U. When my daughter was ten she played 12U, moved up to 14U at twelve, 16U at fourteen and 18U at fifteen. My daughter never played more than fifty games a year until age fifteen and then it was never more than seventy games. She plays college ball.
It's not the number of games a kid plays. It's talent and cultivation of the talent. What does a 10U player learn in 108 games they wouldn't learn in 50?
Did you daughter play other sports? My daughter played softball, basketball, s****r and field hockey, until she settled on softball, track and volleyball in high school in addition to travel softball. I would have hated to see her settle into one or two sports at an early age.
I don't want to reply to any one post on this topic with this comment. My son is now fourteen and entering high school next month.
I don't see the need to place kids in "perceived" elite levels of sports and spend lots of money on training before the teen years. In addition to LL and LL all-stars, my son played community travel at 9U and 10U and some USSSA travel at 11U and 12U. He hasn't been to a baseball camp yet. I don't see how anything on a small field equates to cultivated talent on a full size field. All the distances, angles and speed of the game changes when they hit the big field.
At 13U and 14U he has played a full USSSA Majors tournament schedule in addition to middle school ball. I definitely see the advantage of him having faced pitchers bringing it 80mph in 14U as he enters high school and will ultimately see a lot of 82-85 mph.
But I still don't see any advantages gained from 9U to 12U other than it was fun.
I don't see the need to place kids in "perceived" elite levels of sports and spend lots of money on training before the teen years. In addition to LL and LL all-stars, my son played community travel at 9U and 10U and some USSSA travel at 11U and 12U. He hasn't been to a baseball camp yet. I don't see how anything on a small field equates to cultivated talent on a full size field. All the distances, angles and speed of the game changes when they hit the big field.
At 13U and 14U he has played a full USSSA Majors tournament schedule in addition to middle school ball. I definitely see the advantage of him having faced pitchers bringing it 80mph in 14U as he enters high school and will ultimately see a lot of 82-85 mph.
But I still don't see any advantages gained from 9U to 12U other than it was fun.
Do appreciate your view ... BUT ya gotta see others dis agree!quote:by TG: I still don't see any advantages gained from 9U to 12U other than it was fun.
there are many here who have been where U are and beyond .. and they are offering valuable insite looking back (if that makes sense)
in other words - your input, while valuable, YOU DON"T REALLY HAVE THE (FUTURE) PERSPECTIVE YET!!!
many others have stanchly argued a similar stance have since appologized
quote:Sorry Will. I wasn't calling Elite, just passing on what I've seen them called
then why call them that? You dont call an apple an orange.
quote:Originally posted by Bee>:Do appreciate your view ... BUT ya gotta see others dis agree!quote:by TG: I still don't see any advantages gained from 9U to 12U other than it was fun.
there are many here who have been where U are and beyond .. and they are offering valuable insite looking back (if that makes sense)
in other words - your input, while valuable, YOU DON"T REALLY HAVE THE (FUTURE) PERSPECTIVE YET!!!
many others have stanchly argued a similar stance have since appologized
My oldest is a college softball player. I was a college baseball player. I don't place a lot of value on preteen sports other than learning the basics and building passion for the game. My son is positioned very well for a high school varsity experience heading into high school. It's his 13U and 14U travel experience that made the difference, not anything that happened on a mini field.
I'd like to know what it is about playing on mini fields in the preteen years that makes a difference so I can debate it.
quote:many others have stanchly argued a similar stance have since appologized
BEE: Could you expand on this statement which I find interesting? Is it your position that playing select ball before hitting the full sized diamond has some demonstrable positive influence that cannot be obtained in one year?
In addition to LL, my son played 11U and 12U USSSA baseball on 50/70 fields. I don't see how anything he gained on the 50/70 field with open bases at 5'1" is going to translate to anything in high school at 6'1".
I don't see any connection between his 50/70 successes and his 14U successes. The change in the size of the field and the speed of the game changes all the angles. What he's accomplished has been on innate talent, practice and passion for the game, not taking leads when he was eleven.
I don't see any connection between his 50/70 successes and his 14U successes. The change in the size of the field and the speed of the game changes all the angles. What he's accomplished has been on innate talent, practice and passion for the game, not taking leads when he was eleven.
quote:Originally posted by TG:
Playing 108 games at 10U is way too much. In the growth years this is risking injury from physical burnout. It's not a matter of competition. It's not a matter of searching the country for competion. They should have played up to 12U.
It's not the number of games a kid plays. It's talent and cultivation of the talent. What does a 10U player learn in 108 games they wouldn't learn in 50?
What does a 10U player learn in 108 games that they wouldn't learn in 50? The team learned how to win championship games. This group of little girls were remarkably disciplined, motivated, and competitive, and sweet, also. By winning most of the tournaments, they played late into Sunday, playing more games than teams that were eliminated earlier.
They may have benefited by playing 12U. However, I was not the coach, nor did I want to be. I didn't schedule the games and the girls were all team players by playing what was scheduled. Winning is addictive. The more you win, the more you want to play so that you can win again. The girls, and yes the parents, all loved the wins. To a point.
Like I said, playing the "practice games" in which no one was really "practicing" was painful. There was no girl or parent who enjoyed the blow-out games. But come the next game, there were no complaints that they had to play AGAIN! The girls loved their teammates and they loved playing together.
Even with all of the games that they played, at the conclusion of the season, my 10 year old daughter couldn't wait for the new season to start up again, two weeks later. And it wasn't until the following month that we had the "awakening" of the first of three baseball related surgeries among my two teen-aged boys. I absolutely did not allow my daughters to play as many games this year, and the coaches and the other parents and even the girls on the teams think I am a horrible mother for that. I absolutely guard against my daughters' burnout. And mine, especially!
quote:Did you daughter play other sports? My daughter played softball, basketball, s****r and field hockey, until she settled on softball, track and volleyball in high school in addition to travel softball. I would have hated to see her settle into one or two sports at an early age.
She played basketball, but she is too short to enjoy it. ...hmmmm...I wonder if she is too short for softball...She will play volleyball and run track for her school this year--she will be in 7th grade. My other daughter did the same. She, too, loves her teammates and her coach and she looks forward to playing softball this fall for her travel team and in spring for her high school. Volleyball tryouts for her high school were today. She considered trying out but decided against it. Knowing what our doctor told us about volleyball players using the same overhand shoulder motion as softball throwing, and knowing that she would be practicing volleyball or playing it everyday for the entire 10 week season, I was ok with that. She will be able to ease into her travel team routine this fall without the without the stress of having to practice a high school sport which uses the same shoulder muscles as softball everyday.
congrats on yor son's skill level entering hs - however your conclusions that his devopment occured at 14U on a big field defy logicquote:by TG: My oldest is a college softball player. I was a college baseball player. I don't place a lot of value on preteen sports other than learning the basics and building passion for the game. My son is positioned very well for a high school varsity experience heading into high school. It's his 13U and 14U travel experience that made the difference, not anything that happened on a mini field
TG - Gee, I’ve read your posts (several times) and you seem to be agreeing with me and others, but then not agreeing too. Like the two seasons of real baseball before high school. And then not valuing preteen sports, but saying your children played travel at 9 along with LL. Maybe I’m just not reading it right?
Our HS coach does not want to spend his time teaching Freshmen base running. That is why I said kids need two seasons of “real” baseball rules. I have a young son, so 12u and 13u where his two pre HS seasons. At 14u, this fall anyway, we will play 6-8 tourneys. 24 – 32 games. He made the HS Summer team, and the coach is already talking to him/us about fall workouts and weight room workouts.
I don’t agree with your statement about base running coming naturally – or about pitchers mixing up their looks. Players need to be taught how to take a lead, and pitchers need to develop a foundation. My son has never ever been told to mix up his look. He may look over to keep the runner on, a quick throw earns him respect, and you know what, he rarely has a runner even try to steal on him. The value of Rec to my son was that he was able to pitch without having to think about a runner on first. Learning how not to Balk was an issue to all pitchers at 12u travel. In that fall season, pitchers were given one warning, and the umpire usually told them exactly what they did.
I’m glad your son made the successful transition to OF. Like I said, players and parents often don’t see the value in an OF position.
Good players come from all backgrounds, no one formula fits all. The bottom line is that baseball skills build from one season to the next. Where a player gets that experience is left in the hands of his parents. Rec worked for us until 12u. It was fun and exciting. Like someone else mentioned - He wanted a seriousness and a competitiveness he could not get at the Rec level. He played all stars and select, and that was the best part of the last two seasons. The biggest issue with travel tends to be an overuse issue especially of pitchers. Parent need to be careful, and not get caught up in the moment.
Our HS coach does not want to spend his time teaching Freshmen base running. That is why I said kids need two seasons of “real” baseball rules. I have a young son, so 12u and 13u where his two pre HS seasons. At 14u, this fall anyway, we will play 6-8 tourneys. 24 – 32 games. He made the HS Summer team, and the coach is already talking to him/us about fall workouts and weight room workouts.
I don’t agree with your statement about base running coming naturally – or about pitchers mixing up their looks. Players need to be taught how to take a lead, and pitchers need to develop a foundation. My son has never ever been told to mix up his look. He may look over to keep the runner on, a quick throw earns him respect, and you know what, he rarely has a runner even try to steal on him. The value of Rec to my son was that he was able to pitch without having to think about a runner on first. Learning how not to Balk was an issue to all pitchers at 12u travel. In that fall season, pitchers were given one warning, and the umpire usually told them exactly what they did.
I’m glad your son made the successful transition to OF. Like I said, players and parents often don’t see the value in an OF position.
Good players come from all backgrounds, no one formula fits all. The bottom line is that baseball skills build from one season to the next. Where a player gets that experience is left in the hands of his parents. Rec worked for us until 12u. It was fun and exciting. Like someone else mentioned - He wanted a seriousness and a competitiveness he could not get at the Rec level. He played all stars and select, and that was the best part of the last two seasons. The biggest issue with travel tends to be an overuse issue especially of pitchers. Parent need to be careful, and not get caught up in the moment.
I agree with mom's assesments of TG's posts.
I think that many CF's, RF's or LF's in college were former pitchers in HS. As a outfielder, catching and returning the ball is expected at any level, speed is essential. So is an accurate arm. Our CF at Clemson was a former HS pitcher who was better as lead off guy, bunts, OB% and speed than pitching. Our RF pitched in HS as well, all recruited for their speed, arm strength and accuracy AND bats.
College recruiters usually don't recruit a player because he is an excellent outfielder, but most likely just a very good overall player with many tools, able to play any field position.
JMO.
What do you mean by a pitcher should mix up their looks?
I think that many CF's, RF's or LF's in college were former pitchers in HS. As a outfielder, catching and returning the ball is expected at any level,
speed is essential. So is an accurate arm. Our CF at Clemson was a former HS pitcher who was better as lead off guy, bunts, OB% and speed than pitching. Our RF pitched in HS as well, all recruited for their speed, arm strength and accuracy AND bats.College recruiters usually don't recruit a player because he is an excellent outfielder, but most likely just a very good overall player with many tools, able to play any field position.
JMO.
What do you mean by a pitcher should mix up their looks?
I did a bit of research and emailed some parents not too long ago. Out of the 14 kids from my son's 12/11 Major Little League team only two are currently playing HighSchool Ball. One is my son and the other is another kid who played Travel Ball. They were the only two who played Travel Ball after 12yr old majors and they are the only two currently playing HighSchool Ball.
As far as burnout is concerned, some kids absolutely have a passion and love for baseball. You can't teach that and you cannot force it on kids. My son has been offered to play HighSchool football since he is very athletic yet he continues to play baseball year round. You can't teach passion and you can't teach a genuine love for the game.
As far as burnout is concerned, some kids absolutely have a passion and love for baseball. You can't teach that and you cannot force it on kids. My son has been offered to play HighSchool football since he is very athletic yet he continues to play baseball year round. You can't teach passion and you can't teach a genuine love for the game.
quote:What do you mean by a pitcher should mix up their looks?
I could be wrong but I took that to mean the pitcher doesn't look to the runner the same every time. One time look the runner once then pitch, the next time look the runner 3 times then pitch. So mixing up three things, the look, the pick, the pitch so to not have a pattern.
Actually I never thought the pitcher should appear to be looking at the runner at first for the pick off at first. The pitcher needs to rely on his catcher for signals as well.
These are skills that take long to develop, and these are skills that can be taught early, to be ready for HS and beyond.
This IMO is what youth ball is about. JMO.
These are skills that take long to develop, and these are skills that can be taught early, to be ready for HS and beyond.
This IMO is what youth ball is about. JMO.
Did any of your boys have growth plate issues from overuse?
My son started travel ball at 11 (playing 12U) (LOVED IT!) and aggravated the growth plate in his throwing arm while pitching at Cooperstown. When he wasn't pitching, he was SS/3B, which exacerbated the problem. This growth plate was the one near the shoulder, from throwing in the high 60s/low 70s at age 11. He probably threw 1000 pitches that year. He had a friend on a different team who threw too many curveballs and actually cracked the growth plate in his elbow. So I guess we were lucky in that sense.
My son just turned 14 and the arm is finally 100% after a lot of patience and PT. It's great to see him play D again! It's been a long two-year cycle. There was a silver lining, though. During the time that he couldn't throw, he really concentrated on hitting and becoming a student of the game. He has that passion that many of you referred to and has become a very good line drive hitter. He was starting varsity DH last year as a 13 year-old 8th grader (it's a small school, but still...). Now that his arm is healed, he was a starting middle infielder on the varsity summer team. We are looking forward to the spring! He looks small out there, but the opposing outfielders tend to back up when he comes to bat for the second time.
As to how much value players get from travel ball or rec ball/LL at any level, I think playing up has made a huge difference for us. We were lucky that our son played up on his very first T-ball team, and continues to play up today. We were also lucky that the coaches on our travel team always looked for better teams to play, so he was playing up, and against quality competition. Some of the other travel teams seem to just go around looking for little rec ball teams to beat up on so that they can have a winning record.
My son won't actually play with his own age until he's a HS junior and senior. Then we're really going to have some fun!
My son started travel ball at 11 (playing 12U) (LOVED IT!) and aggravated the growth plate in his throwing arm while pitching at Cooperstown. When he wasn't pitching, he was SS/3B, which exacerbated the problem. This growth plate was the one near the shoulder, from throwing in the high 60s/low 70s at age 11. He probably threw 1000 pitches that year. He had a friend on a different team who threw too many curveballs and actually cracked the growth plate in his elbow. So I guess we were lucky in that sense.
My son just turned 14 and the arm is finally 100% after a lot of patience and PT. It's great to see him play D again! It's been a long two-year cycle. There was a silver lining, though. During the time that he couldn't throw, he really concentrated on hitting and becoming a student of the game. He has that passion that many of you referred to and has become a very good line drive hitter. He was starting varsity DH last year as a 13 year-old 8th grader (it's a small school, but still...). Now that his arm is healed, he was a starting middle infielder on the varsity summer team. We are looking forward to the spring! He looks small out there, but the opposing outfielders tend to back up when he comes to bat for the second time.
As to how much value players get from travel ball or rec ball/LL at any level, I think playing up has made a huge difference for us. We were lucky that our son played up on his very first T-ball team, and continues to play up today. We were also lucky that the coaches on our travel team always looked for better teams to play, so he was playing up, and against quality competition. Some of the other travel teams seem to just go around looking for little rec ball teams to beat up on so that they can have a winning record.
My son won't actually play with his own age until he's a HS junior and senior. Then we're really going to have some fun!
from what I read his assumption is that the son of a (former) college baseball player & little bro of a (current) college softball player learned NO fudamentals in his youth & did NOT develop them til he got onto a big field at 14 yrs.quote:by TPM: I agree with mom's assesments of TG's posts
seems far fetched unless I mis-read
quote:Originally posted by 55mom:
TG - Gee, I’ve read your posts (several times) and you seem to be agreeing with me and others, but then not agreeing too.
Bee>, how's that?
I am not really sure of the point he is trying to make.
If he is not a big fan of travel ball, than I agree. My idea of 10-14 baseball is developing skills you need to play in HS. He does state that, but then I get the impression he is saying his son doesn't need those fundamentals to begin HS.
Very few of the younger travel team players (10-13) my son played never even made it to HS ball. Very many of the HS travel (not his HS team) players are either in college or pro. Many players that began very early either burned out, got injured or went on to play another sport.
I also agree with 55mom's assesments of TG's posts
quote:Originally posted by Bee>:from what I read his assumption is that the son of a (former) college baseball player & little bro of a (current) college softball player learned NO fudamentals in his youth & did NOT develop them til he got onto a big field at 14 yrs.quote:by TPM: I agree with mom's assesments of TG's posts
seems far fetched unless I mis-read
You completely misread it. My son played LL, LL all-stars and travel from 9-12. The 9U and 10U was community based. The 11U and 12U was USSSA. The travel was only 20+ games a summer.
In the preteen years I believe what kids get out of baseball is learning the basics of hitting, fielding, throwing and running. They also build a passion for the game. I also believe since this is prepuberty ball it doesn't have any bearing on whether a player will be a successful high school player. I've seen a majority of prepubscent studs fizzle on the big field (60/90) when their weaknesses due to size, strength, speed, skills, etc, become exposed. They couldn't outmuscle or outrun the big field like they could the smaller fields.
Now at 13U, whether or not a player played open bases or not, it's not that difficult to learn how to take a lead and get a jump as a baserunner, or hold runners as a pitcher. It certainly doesn't take seasons. It takes a couple of weeks of games.
When I see a kid compete successfully on the big field I start to see him as a player. Also, all the angles change defensively due to the size of the field. At 14U, with the kids becoming bigger, stronger and faster the angles of the game change again, as they do into high school, college ball and pro ball.
There's no way to tell if a kid is going to be good on the big field just because he was good on a small field. There are logical guesses but no guarantees. I've seen too many kids fail in the transition.
I didn't say my son learned how to play baseball in 14U. He took a progression from kiddie ball on the small field (yes I consider 50/70 USSSA ball kiddie ball in addition to LL) where he learned the basics. He went on to the 13U field where he displayed the ability to continue playing the game on the full size field.
At 14U, the game continued to get faster as the players continued to get bigger, faster and stronger, where many are already the size of high school players (if not as experienced and baseball mature), he proved he's a prospect to play high school ball. He hit the pitchers throwing 80+. He tracked down the line drives crushed up the gap.
Even though he played both LL and travel in his preteens, I never saw the travel as developmental. It was just the fun of playing more baseball. In our area the better players play both through age twelve. I could argue seeing a pitcher from 46 feet in LL was more challenging than seeing the same pitcher from 50 feet in travel.
But whether or not he played both programs, just LL or just travel from 9-12, he would be right where he is now due to his athletic ability and the game he's developed on the full size field in the past two years.
The question now is where does he play in high school. Many people see him as the heir apparent at short as a soph. He should start at short on the JV team as a freshman. Yet, the varsity coach asked him if he would considered converting to catcher. Typically the openings on varsity for a freshman are the corner outfield postions. Did I mention he also pitches? All he can do it work hard, do what's best for the program and let it play out.
Add: Back when I played LL and that's all there was, the biggest, baddest player in the league fizzled on the big field when he only grew two more inches after age twelve. The big, slow, klutzty kid who didn't make LL all-stars pitched six years of MLB ball at 6'4", 245 with a 90+ fastball. Four all-stars played high school ball. Two played college ball.
quote:Originally posted by TripleDad:quote:What do you mean by a pitcher should mix up their looks?
I could be wrong but I took that to mean the pitcher doesn't look to the runner the same every time. One time look the runner once then pitch, the next time look the runner 3 times then pitch. So mixing up three things, the look, the pick, the pitch so to not have a pattern.
Exactly.
quote:Originally posted by TG:quote:Originally posted by TripleDad:quote:What do you mean by a pitcher should mix up their looks?
I could be wrong but I took that to mean the pitcher doesn't look to the runner the same every time. One time look the runner once then pitch, the next time look the runner 3 times then pitch. So mixing up three things, the look, the pick, the pitch so to not have a pattern.
Exactly.
Wow - different regions and all I guess. We use the term mix things up to mean keep the batter guessing, not the runner.
quote:Originally posted by 55mom:
Wow - different regions and all I guess. We use the term mix things up to mean keep the batter guessing, not the runner.
We mean that here too.
TG said: "Now at 13U, whether or not a player played open bases or not, it's not that difficult to learn how to take a lead and get a jump as a baserunner, or hold runners as a pitcher. It certainly doesn't take seasons. It takes a couple of weeks of games."
Actually it takes years and years. This is why kids drafted in the first round go to develomental leagues, the A then AA etc. There is always something to learn.
Look, I'm not bucking for an argument, sometimes I think you disagree with yourself, because later you said this:
"He took a progression from kiddie ball on the small field (yes I consider 50/70 USSSA ball kiddie ball in addition to LL) where he learned the basics. He went on to the 13U field where he displayed the ability to continue playing the game on the full size field.
At 14U, the game continued to get faster as the players continued to get bigger, faster and stronger, where many are already the size of high school players"
so I don't really know what your are saying. Kids play to get better. Parents have to balance fun and competetion. Each experience builds on the other. Your path was different from mine, but our sons appear to be at the same place. He played school ball and travel the last two years. REC - select/all stars before that.
To each his own, it sounds like you have enjoyed watching your son grow and develop - that is tremendously important! Good Luck with high school - sounds like you will have a wonderfully busy spring!
Actually it takes years and years. This is why kids drafted in the first round go to develomental leagues, the A then AA etc. There is always something to learn.
Look, I'm not bucking for an argument, sometimes I think you disagree with yourself, because later you said this:
"He took a progression from kiddie ball on the small field (yes I consider 50/70 USSSA ball kiddie ball in addition to LL) where he learned the basics. He went on to the 13U field where he displayed the ability to continue playing the game on the full size field.
At 14U, the game continued to get faster as the players continued to get bigger, faster and stronger, where many are already the size of high school players"
so I don't really know what your are saying. Kids play to get better. Parents have to balance fun and competetion. Each experience builds on the other. Your path was different from mine, but our sons appear to be at the same place. He played school ball and travel the last two years. REC - select/all stars before that.
To each his own, it sounds like you have enjoyed watching your son grow and develop - that is tremendously important! Good Luck with high school - sounds like you will have a wonderfully busy spring!
quote:Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:quote:Originally posted by 55mom:
Wow - different regions and all I guess. We use the term mix things up to mean keep the batter guessing, not the runner.
We mean that here too.
I've been meaning to tell you something, but I can't quite figure out the pm thingie. (just give me time) Anyway, I've never been a big Clemson fan - an NC ACC fan and all. But after reading the compliments your son got from the trainer - about having good care in college - and some other things too - I believe I've changed my mind. (About baseball definitely!!!)
For a pm, just put your cursor over the person's name you want to pm (make sure you are logged in), and use the private topic option.
I am not sure what you are talking about trainers comments?
I agree with your post above. If it was all so easy, not sure why son's college coach spends hours and hours in practice on pitchers holding off runners, stealing bases and the pick off.
I am not sure what you are talking about trainers comments?
I agree with your post above. If it was all so easy, not sure why son's college coach spends hours and hours in practice on pitchers holding off runners, stealing bases and the pick off.
quote:Originally posted by 55mom:
TG said: "Now at 13U, whether or not a player played open bases or not, it's not that difficult to learn how to take a lead and get a jump as a baserunner, or hold runners as a pitcher. It certainly doesn't take seasons. It takes a couple of weeks of games."
Actually it takes years and years. This is why kids drafted in the first round go to develomental leagues, the A then AA etc. There is always something to learn.
Let's start by not taking my comments out of context. The subject is pre high school travel, not minor league progression. So let's stay on topic.
My point, and I'll repeat it again, small field/kiddie ball accomplishments before moving on to the full size, 60/90 field at 13U is not relevant to future success. Why? The increase in the size of the field at 13U changes the game drastically. Flaws that could be covered on the small field are magnified and exposed on the large field. Many kiddie ball studs fail at 13U.
quote:Look, I'm not bucking for an argument, sometimes I think you disagree with yourself, because later you said this:
"He took a progression from kiddie ball on the small field (yes I consider 50/70 USSSA ball kiddie ball in addition to LL) where he learned the basics. He went on to the 13U field where he displayed the ability to continue playing the game on the full size field.
At 14U, the game continued to get faster as the players continued to get bigger, faster and stronger, where many are already the size of high school players"
So I don't really know what your are saying. Kids play to get better. Parents have to balance fun and competetion. Each experience builds on the other. Your path was different from mine, but our sons appear to be at the same place. He played school ball and travel the last two years. REC - select/all stars before that.
What you're missing is the disconnect I see between 12U and 13U. 12U is on a smaller field. 13U is on a full size field. Until a player proves he can handle the full size field at the 13U level I don't see him as any kind of player. I call the small field studs who fall down on the big field at 13U as kiddie ball heroes. The kids who succeed at the 13U level get to proceed in the game.
I also don't see playing on open bases in the preteen years as any great advantage over kids who play on open bases for the first time at 13U. It's not that hard to learn how to take a lead and steal bases for the first time at 13U realtive to playing 13U ball. When I coached 13U I got several kids up to speed on base running on open bases relative to 13U very quickly.
Had my son not played travel when he was 9-12 I believe he would be in the exact same place in terms of future potential. Why? Innate ability and practice. Did travel at 13U and 14U make a difference in where he is in term of future potential? Absolutely, because it happened on the big field against opponents skills much closer to high school ability than kiddie ball.
I doubt you will ever find a high school, college or pro coach who will tell you accomplishments on the small/kiddie ball fields determine who will be the future players, unless they own a baseball academy and are trying to sell lessons to parents of preteeners.
Baseball is a many layered thing.
They may learn about taking leads and secondaries 'in a couple of weeks' (Far out, now a really don't understand why I see so much poor baserunning all the way up to the majors.), but do they learn about avoiding the tag on a pickoff, varying sliding techniques based on situation and MIF tendencies and talents, noting the positioning and arm strengths of the OFers, receiving position of the basemen, including the catcher, how the cutoff men line up and how effectively......
Just as the kids learn young to add and subtract, so they can then multiply and divide when they're a bit older, as a basis to move on to geometry and algebra, and if they're really good...calculus, it's a good idea to start with the basics young in baseball and build.
'Athletic' young ballplayers can depend on that athleticism rather than fundamentals. If they do catch the baseball fever, they can find themselves spending time unlearning lazy/bad habits in order to keep up. Whatever the team, this requires study, work, and quality coaching.
What can you learn in 100+ games that you can't learn in 50? More than 50 games' worth of situations and experience. Twice the muscle memory. Double correct reactions because of the broader range of situations faced. More fun.
It will still come down to communication with your player, and making sure your child is playing because of their desire and not yours. Or making sure their experience is being limited because of legitimate health concerns and not (perhaps this is not the right word) coddling.
My son played year-round, sometimes on as many as three teams simultaneously from the age of 7 to now (22). Travel ball from the age of 10. The odd two week break made him antsy. He's a strong kid with only one significant injury in those 15 years which resulted in the acquisition of a metal cup (and the mention of which upsets the men on the board
).
That's what HE wanted. It may also be why he's still being told today that when his playing days are done, he should coach.
I fancy myself baseball knowledgeable and he teaches me something every day about the game. He's been studying and doing for 15 years; I've just been studying for more than 50. And that's why he's so much better.
By the way, I've always heard 'mxing up looks' to mean changing the eye level of the hitter. A pitcher changes his timing to the plate to keep the runner off balance. (Moms Unite!)
They may learn about taking leads and secondaries 'in a couple of weeks' (Far out, now a really don't understand why I see so much poor baserunning all the way up to the majors.), but do they learn about avoiding the tag on a pickoff, varying sliding techniques based on situation and MIF tendencies and talents, noting the positioning and arm strengths of the OFers, receiving position of the basemen, including the catcher, how the cutoff men line up and how effectively......
Just as the kids learn young to add and subtract, so they can then multiply and divide when they're a bit older, as a basis to move on to geometry and algebra, and if they're really good...calculus, it's a good idea to start with the basics young in baseball and build.
'Athletic' young ballplayers can depend on that athleticism rather than fundamentals. If they do catch the baseball fever, they can find themselves spending time unlearning lazy/bad habits in order to keep up. Whatever the team, this requires study, work, and quality coaching.
What can you learn in 100+ games that you can't learn in 50? More than 50 games' worth of situations and experience. Twice the muscle memory. Double correct reactions because of the broader range of situations faced. More fun.
It will still come down to communication with your player, and making sure your child is playing because of their desire and not yours. Or making sure their experience is being limited because of legitimate health concerns and not (perhaps this is not the right word) coddling.
My son played year-round, sometimes on as many as three teams simultaneously from the age of 7 to now (22). Travel ball from the age of 10. The odd two week break made him antsy. He's a strong kid with only one significant injury in those 15 years which resulted in the acquisition of a metal cup (and the mention of which upsets the men on the board
).That's what HE wanted. It may also be why he's still being told today that when his playing days are done, he should coach.
I fancy myself baseball knowledgeable and he teaches me something every day about the game. He's been studying and doing for 15 years; I've just been studying for more than 50. And that's why he's so much better.
By the way, I've always heard 'mxing up looks' to mean changing the eye level of the hitter. A pitcher changes his timing to the plate to keep the runner off balance. (Moms Unite!)
Playing 100 games in high school/Legion and beyond is training and experience. Playing 100 games at ten years old is more likely to lead to Repetitive Stress Syndrome growth injuries than a career in the game.
Perhaps we should limit the amount of time they spend in school during the grade school years as well. It can be mentally stressful and doesn't relate to what they learn in hs, college and beyond.
quote:Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
For a pm, just put your cursor over the person's name you want to pm (make sure you are logged in), and use the private topic option.
I am not sure what you are talking about trainers comments?
I agree with your post above. If it was all so easy, not sure why son's college coach spends hours and hours in practice on pitchers holding off runners, stealing bases and the pick off.
It is in the Minor League Reporting Thread.
"He also spoke with the trainer about his workout routine and the trainer ... said he has been fortunate to have good trainers in college."
Oh and I did click on your name and saw the drop down... I've not done that before.
thanks
TG - you may want to read the Thread mentioned. Some of the parents talk about level of play at the upper levels.
“Let's start by not taking my comments out of context. The subject is pre high school travel, not minor league progression. So let's stay on topic.”
Wait, what?
/I could get really snarky
//really
///but I won’t
I don’t agree with your point(s). (which are seemingly inconsistent)
I (and others) are saying that experience builds upon itself. No matter what level of play prehs or hs or college or beyond. That is all. I agree that success as an 8 year old does not guarantee success as a 16 year old, but that is a tangent to the discussion. (13u in our area is not played on a full sized field (USSSA) – it is optional in the spring. We didn’t play AAU, so I don’t know that, but Triple Crown is full sized. We have more selection from USSSA, so we played that - optioning to play full sized when we could.)
Speaking of on topic - Should preHS be traveling so much? Is it worth it? I said no – travel at the younger ages was not necessary in our particular case. My personal observation is that it is necessary for at least two seasons preHS though. I tried to stress it is personal experience from one area of the county.
I think people recognize that quality coaching and play are essential at every level, and parents want their children at the highest. The perception is that “travel” is the highest. It seems like too many parents push their children too far too fast. When asked in the real world, I tell people that if their child is looking for more (serious players, better competition) then they should look outside the local rec league when the players are 11 or 12)
Personal mileage may vary.
Again, Good Luck and Have Fun this Spring.
/still don’t know why you are arguing with me
//we seem to be agreeing
///I’m not going through point by point
////I like slashies
/////
Wait, what?
/I could get really snarky
//really
///but I won’t
I don’t agree with your point(s). (which are seemingly inconsistent)
I (and others) are saying that experience builds upon itself. No matter what level of play prehs or hs or college or beyond. That is all. I agree that success as an 8 year old does not guarantee success as a 16 year old, but that is a tangent to the discussion. (13u in our area is not played on a full sized field (USSSA) – it is optional in the spring. We didn’t play AAU, so I don’t know that, but Triple Crown is full sized. We have more selection from USSSA, so we played that - optioning to play full sized when we could.)
Speaking of on topic - Should preHS be traveling so much? Is it worth it? I said no – travel at the younger ages was not necessary in our particular case. My personal observation is that it is necessary for at least two seasons preHS though. I tried to stress it is personal experience from one area of the county.
I think people recognize that quality coaching and play are essential at every level, and parents want their children at the highest. The perception is that “travel” is the highest. It seems like too many parents push their children too far too fast. When asked in the real world, I tell people that if their child is looking for more (serious players, better competition) then they should look outside the local rec league when the players are 11 or 12)
Personal mileage may vary.
Again, Good Luck and Have Fun this Spring.
/still don’t know why you are arguing with me
//we seem to be agreeing
///I’m not going through point by point
////I like slashies
/////