It took awhile to make my way all the way through this thread (kind of like reading Tolstoy). So I, too, will now chime in with my perspective. (And really, that is all any of these arguements are: one person's perspective. Some just have a lot more experience behind them. I tend to listen to them.)
We live in an area that has rec league -- low skill, and mostly kids just signed up by parents in search of anything to keep kiddo busy: LL; and Babe Ruth (Cal Ripken for 7 - 12 y.o.). BR has "tryouts", so theoretically the lesser skilled kids play elsewhere. However, because of boundary regulations kids have to play in their H.S. region. Several of those regions take virtually every kid who shows up. They just don't have the numbers to do otherwise. When my son was 10 he couldn't wait to try out for "all-stars". HE wanted the better competition, and to play with boys who shared his seriousness and love of the game. They had a blast. Yes, we traveled awfully far that summer. But it was that first year of summer ball that re-sparked his enthusiasm after a bummer spring spent playing on a team of, perhaps, 4 kids who didn't screw-off the entire time at practices and games. In our area, summer ball -- travel teams, all-stars, "select" teams -- provide the chance to play with like-minded kids. The coaching has been inconsistent. But the boys have survived that and, sometimes despite the coaching, become better players. They have increased their baseball awareness; learned to play new positions; and created memories that make them laugh, or cringe whenever they are recalled. Some of those memories have nothing to do with the game of baseball -- thinking of our rest stop at the "testicle festival" in Montana in particular. Geez, so many good times, and so many frustrating times, have all helped my son grow in his knowledge and love of the game. And he is only a 2011. He's got many more years ahead. Summer has been the high point every year so far.
RZ1: There is more and more support as to what caused the damage. For the most part the culprit is overuse and inadequate rest/recovery periods after pitching. Sites such as ASMI, sports orthopedic surgeons testifying, etc. The problem comes in the determination as to thewhen and on whose watch the damage occurred. There is no doubt tho anyone doing a little research that the incidence of TJ surgery in young adolescents has exploded since the onset of travel. HS and college coaches will be taking hits because of damages incurred in earlier years.
When I look back I blame my sons TJ injury on Mother Nature and the DNR from the State of WI. 15 years of snowball fights that lasted for days all through the winter without proper warm-up, no rest days, too much outerwear, "heavy" snowballs, and improved fortifications that required higher velocity throws. It sounds tongue-n-cheek, but why couldn't that have been part of the problem? Or, maybe it was that darn glacier made State protected pond by the house where over the years those kids threw thousands of rocks for max skips and that involved extremly poor throwing mechanics. Maybe it was from chopping wood, monkey bars, or Frisbee. Who knows 
Ya see emerald, it sounds like ya did it for the fun! The right reason!
I would like to get opinions on this scenerio:
Say a coach is in a 6 game 12u tournament. The coach understands the pitch count issue. So his #1 pitcher throws on Thursday 75 pitches. The coach will not pitch him Friday, will only pitch him Saturday if needed.(Maybe in relief). But plans to pitch him Sunday. Meanwhile the kid goes back to playing his normal position throughout the tournament.
2 questions: 1)is 2.5 days rest enough?
2)is it really rest since he is back on the field playing.
The scenerio above is extremely common, even more common to see the kid pitch 3+ times over the tourny
Say a coach is in a 6 game 12u tournament. The coach understands the pitch count issue. So his #1 pitcher throws on Thursday 75 pitches. The coach will not pitch him Friday, will only pitch him Saturday if needed.(Maybe in relief). But plans to pitch him Sunday. Meanwhile the kid goes back to playing his normal position throughout the tournament.
2 questions: 1)is 2.5 days rest enough?
2)is it really rest since he is back on the field playing.
The scenerio above is extremely common, even more common to see the kid pitch 3+ times over the tourny
quote:a community league sometime with no dad volunteers
most of those Dads are just doing the best they can ..
and if my memory serves me, some pretty high level coaches I've met (inc a few ACC) have understood that
There's a difference between dad volunteers and daddyball. Dad volunteers do their best. Dad volunteers are fair. Many dad volunteers played the game and know how to teach the game. Daddyball is when a group of dads take over a program for the long term benefit of their sons. Daddyball is when daddy's son plays short even though he can't field and chew gum at the same time while three better candidates play other positions. And don't think the kids don't notice more than the adults. The kids know who can play and can't play.
What we have in our area is some dads who took over a board and manipulated everything for the benefit of their kids at the expense of other kids in the program. Now the higher level programs are wondering where the talent went. They left for independent programs.
Then these daddyball kids and their parents get to high school thinking they're studs. The kids who left for independent programs show up for high school trtyouts. The daddyballers are left on the bench or cut. The parents get upset because their kids were soooo good. What happened is at high school these parents could no longer manipulate the process and pave the way.
I was fortunate to come through some very good local baseball programs from LL through Legion. What I see in our community now is enough to make a parent sick.
I case you're wondering why I didn't get involved, I did. I was on the board. I quit when I got tired of fighting a shorthanded fight. The people got tired of fighting in the board meetings. They decided to vote with their feet. The community program had 1,000 players when these dads took over. It now has less than 400.
ncball - I had to chuckle about your comment about horrible tourny competetion. We know of coaches who commit at the last minute to the least competetive venue, just so they can get a win. We try to play up, or play with teams we know are good.
But oh boy - that is so sad and upsetting about the fellow who pitched 190 pitches!
Are you serving nc (north carolina) bbq?
yum I think it is a great idea to have invitationals.
After rereading - it seems like we are sometimes talking about totally different definitions of "travel". Our experience has been mostly positive
especially with the team members, parents, and venues. We don't travel far, and do see a lot of familiar faces. There are some teams we avoid - one in particular because their parents are just mean. (One was ejected after calling the plate umpire a "p---y"! no kidding!) I would put her in the "don't get in" category. The level of play in the Rec leagues in our area is very low, so the better players really need to play "travel" jmo though.
But oh boy - that is so sad and upsetting about the fellow who pitched 190 pitches!
Are you serving nc (north carolina) bbq?
yum I think it is a great idea to have invitationals. After rereading - it seems like we are sometimes talking about totally different definitions of "travel". Our experience has been mostly positive
especially with the team members, parents, and venues. We don't travel far, and do see a lot of familiar faces. There are some teams we avoid - one in particular because their parents are just mean. (One was ejected after calling the plate umpire a "p---y"! no kidding!) I would put her in the "don't get in" category. The level of play in the Rec leagues in our area is very low, so the better players really need to play "travel" jmo though.
My son was a two-way player until college and I did notice that mentally and physically he was fresher after off days on the bench rather than off days at another position. In this case my opinion may differ from others. I think the fresher part is with "fresher legs" and we all know it is the bottom half that is the deciding feature between a pitcher and a good pitcher.
All generalizations are invalid. Including this one.
One of the difficulties in discussions such as these is that there are no 'they's'.
My son was getting bored with rec ball because his level of commitment and interest was different from the vast majority of the other players. We took him to a camp where he was invited onto an AAU team and that truly lit his fire. He was 10 at the time.
He knew travel ball was out there as families with older sons had suggested it to us, but we had thought 12 was early enough to start. With him, had we waited until 12, he would have been a goalie and not a catcher. When he saw the quality of the other 10 year old players he was being asked to join, nothing would have stopped him from joining up.
To answer your questions, infield, for my son...'yes' down the line. Nothing to do with anyone else's experience. He had several local rec ball to hs teammates join him along the way (in the 13 - 18u years). All played in college, though none were playing by their senior year. I can think of 4 players off the top of my head who are now playing pro from his 10-12u AAU team, however.
That's our family's experience, and may apply as much to anyone else as the fear of eventual TJS applies to an MIF's family.
One of the difficulties in discussions such as these is that there are no 'they's'.
My son was getting bored with rec ball because his level of commitment and interest was different from the vast majority of the other players. We took him to a camp where he was invited onto an AAU team and that truly lit his fire. He was 10 at the time.
He knew travel ball was out there as families with older sons had suggested it to us, but we had thought 12 was early enough to start. With him, had we waited until 12, he would have been a goalie and not a catcher. When he saw the quality of the other 10 year old players he was being asked to join, nothing would have stopped him from joining up.
To answer your questions, infield, for my son...'yes' down the line. Nothing to do with anyone else's experience. He had several local rec ball to hs teammates join him along the way (in the 13 - 18u years). All played in college, though none were playing by their senior year. I can think of 4 players off the top of my head who are now playing pro from his 10-12u AAU team, however.
That's our family's experience, and may apply as much to anyone else as the fear of eventual TJS applies to an MIF's family.
quote:Originally posted by TripleDad:
RZ, Lets go ahead and begin rehab now!!
You can start here, but go easy. Don't want ya to blow a lobe or even worse, tear the cerebral cortex.
I seen it happen when they try to come back too fast.
How about a rehab with Go,Dogs,Go, that one is very lite and easy reading.
quote:I case you're wondering why I didn't get involved, I did. I was on the board. I quit when I got tired of fighting a shorthanded fight. The community program had 1,000 players when these dads took over. It now has less than 400.
While there are those daddy-ball situations you have to rememember that only 1 kid is involved with every daddy-ball coach, that leaves a dozen or so players not affected. There are far more more "spectating parents" that screw up a kid when he enters HS than coaching dads. In the end I say "Long live Daddy-Ball" because without it you have nothing. Board members with agendas of their own are usually more dangerous than any 1 coach.
A Daddy-ball coach usually has that labled put on by an unhappy parent on the team
Exactly, rz. One of the more astute rec ball families used to say that as long as you understood there were 6-8 starting positions on the field for your child to compete for, you'd be fine. That was the coaches' payment for their time invested.
Although Daddyball must be dying out. It's always 'the other guy' who plays Daddyball.
Although Daddyball must be dying out. It's always 'the other guy' who plays Daddyball.
I think it is absolutely correct that there is no right answer.
But I do think it is absolutely correct that playing travel ball from ages 10-14 does not correlate with better players when they are 18 nor does it increase the ability to obtain a scholarship or any other longer term view.
I completely agree with ncball that ages through 14 are when kids should learn how to play the game, being taught by coaches who know how the game is played, and who can teach that(not always the same).
IMO, when you move players from LL to the regulation diamond, those are the critical times when most get lost. The games, when players are 13, can be almost torture at times. Good coaching, whether it is in Babe Ruth, Senior league, or other options, at ages 13-14 is critical. Coaches who run good practices at that level are also critical.
One only needs to look at a minor league roster to realize how many different ways players acquire top level skills.
Our son has played with guys from Asia who grew up playing nearly all day, everyday. Their discipline and work ethic is amazing. One pitcher's pre-game warm up was 125 pitches.
He has played with many Latin players who learn under very different circumstances, and travel ball isn't one of them.
I recently read a post on another board which stated emphatically that anyone wishing to play college or professional baseball needed to play travel baseball.
I think this thread and the realities of a minor league roster show there can be many reasons to play travel ball, but the end result of a scholarship or professional baseball isn't one of them.
The type of instruction and experience that ncball is discussing for those up to age 14 seems well worth considering as a point of conscensus, where none exists,IMO.
But I do think it is absolutely correct that playing travel ball from ages 10-14 does not correlate with better players when they are 18 nor does it increase the ability to obtain a scholarship or any other longer term view.
I completely agree with ncball that ages through 14 are when kids should learn how to play the game, being taught by coaches who know how the game is played, and who can teach that(not always the same).
IMO, when you move players from LL to the regulation diamond, those are the critical times when most get lost. The games, when players are 13, can be almost torture at times. Good coaching, whether it is in Babe Ruth, Senior league, or other options, at ages 13-14 is critical. Coaches who run good practices at that level are also critical.
One only needs to look at a minor league roster to realize how many different ways players acquire top level skills.
Our son has played with guys from Asia who grew up playing nearly all day, everyday. Their discipline and work ethic is amazing. One pitcher's pre-game warm up was 125 pitches.
He has played with many Latin players who learn under very different circumstances, and travel ball isn't one of them.
I recently read a post on another board which stated emphatically that anyone wishing to play college or professional baseball needed to play travel baseball.
I think this thread and the realities of a minor league roster show there can be many reasons to play travel ball, but the end result of a scholarship or professional baseball isn't one of them.
The type of instruction and experience that ncball is discussing for those up to age 14 seems well worth considering as a point of conscensus, where none exists,IMO.
We have all seen the "Daddy" that may put his less talented kid at a key position. In fact, my two younger sons were affected by this odd ritual this summer. 
Personally, at their young ages it does not bother me that much! If the coach "Daddy" invest that kind of time to coach, I'm ok to let it slide. Hopefully it doesn't hurt the team much, usually it doesn't.
Personally, at their young ages it does not bother me that much! If the coach "Daddy" invest that kind of time to coach, I'm ok to let it slide. Hopefully it doesn't hurt the team much, usually it doesn't.
quote:Originally posted by rz1:
A Daddy-ball coach usually has that labled put on by an unhappy parent on the team
The story is too long to be told. It involves an infestation at the board level that permeates all the way down to the league and team levels. When a program declines from one thousand participants to less than four hundred, we're not talking about one unhappy parent. My son was never affected from a playing time and position standpoint. He, and many others were affected by a declining quality of competition. It's why we departed.
But as I earlier stated, many of the kids who benefitted from what went on, are now in high school not understanding why they aren't the best players when they were in the program they came through. The dads are ****ed these kids aren't getting playing time or even making varsity and verbally stabbing a good coach in the back. The dads can no longer manipulate the situation and someone else (high school coach) is passing judgement on their kid's talent.
quote:Why does a parent need to do that when their son is 10 or 12 years old? I am not sure I understand. If at 10-12 years old, the kids just want to play, why isn't that good enough in baseball. Seems to have worked before travel ball grew up as an industry.
Let me tell you about our rec ball experience... We lived near Atlanta and were in a great rec program (Newton County, GA). $70 to sign up for the season. Boy, do I miss those days! At that time, rec ball, all-stars, and summer camps were good enough. We even made fun of the occasional travel teams that came our way - with their matching shoes and bags, etc. They were just kids that we knew that weren't superstars and we thought they looked silly. In that rec program, there was lots of competition, plenty of good players, great coaching, we were lucky. Then we moved to Florida - which is actually a great place to play baseball if you find the right team. Because of my son's birth date, he had always played up in Georgia. He was 6 starting in the 7-8 age group, etc. We moved a week after he had been the go-to pitcher, at age 10, on the 11-12 all-star team that tied for the district championship and went to the state tournament. Anyway, when we moved, I asked the rec department if he could play up. No. Fine. So we don't know any better and enroll him in the rec fall league. He was so dominant that it wasn't even fun (he'll tell you that it was fun for him!). When he was pitching, through 14 games, only one player (a girl) got the ball to the outfield. He hit about .800. there was one game where he hit two HRs and two doubles. The opposing coach was making very loud cracks about corked bat, steroids, etc. The bat is ALUMINUM - it's juiced already! And don't get me started on the steriods. I must admit that I did stomp onto the field between innings and ask that coach to kindly stifle himself. I know, I know, but he was insulting my little boy...who is not little any more so coaches are safe from me.
It was awful. The whole season was unbelievably ridiculous, and we kept being told that this was "an instructional league" so our son shouldn't be there. What? He needs instruction too! They even cancelled the post-season round robin tournament because no one wanted to play our team! It was terrible. This program celebrates mediocrity. Thank goodness for Florida AAU. Someone saw my son hitting off his old blue TPX pitching machine one Sunday at the field (22 balls over the fence that day) and gave us an email address for the person who would be his coach for the next three years. It was a great experience for all of us.
And another thing. My son went through his growth plate injury, took good care of his arm, did his PT, iced every night, and concentrated on hitting. Now the growth plate has closed and he's just fine (and one heck of a hitter). He's still growing like crazy, training hard because that's his way, and has aches and pains all the time. When he describes them to me, I go online and invariably find some ailment that is "common in young athletes or young people who are physically very active." The antidote is rest and ice. Let me tell ya, I'd much rather read that than "very common in young people who sit on their butts all day long."
Infieldad,
Good Point!
Good Point!
quote:Originally posted by infielddad:
I recently read a post on another board which stated emphatically that anyone wishing to play college or professional baseball needed to play travel baseball.
Unless there's something wrong with the local program Legion ball is a great avenue. Otherwise I see showcase ball as an avenue if a player isn't the heavily recruited, highly visible stud and wants to play out of region. Most colleges recruit reasonably regionally.
What is happening in our area is many of the better prospects are gravitating to showcase teams rather than playing Legion ball. The families I've talked to said it's to get exposure to play college ball away from cold weather.
If someone is in a warm weather, baseball hot bed where coaches recruit heavily, I would think showcases would be less of an issue.
quote:Originally posted by TG:
The families I've talked to said it's to get exposure to play college coaches away from cold weather.
Do you mean it is to showcase in front of college coaches that have programs in warm weather states?
If that is what you meant, that is generally why players do this.
But thanks for enlightening us.
quote:Are players better now when they get to age 18/19 because they played travel ball when they were 10-14?
I would point to PG's National Showcase this year. A little over 200 kids, all rising seniors and I would say this is one of the first big group of kids that have played a lot of travel ball.
I believe there were over 100 kids with pithcing volocity that exceded 90 mph.
Now we will never know whether travel ball helped this happen or not. But you have to wonder.
quote:Now we will never know whether travel ball helped this happen or not. But you have to wonder.
On the other side of this, Latin players aren't ever exposed to travel ball, or anything resembling it, but are being signed by MLB in ever increasing numbers.
My sense of this, without any double blind way of proof is the following:
If you took 2 equally talented players of similar size and one played year round travel with good instruction from ages 12-14 and one played locally with good instruction from age 12-14, with other sports also being played, and provided them with equal and high quality coaching from ages 15-17, they would end at the same point by age 17/18.
We are now seeing Latin players coming into the GCL at age 16/17. From what our son said, when they arrive, some are as raw as raw can be. Give them good instruction and playing a short season and you hardly recognize them by the end of the summer.
gee, whoever labeled that a "long term benefit" may want to re-thinkquote:Daddyball is when a group of dads take over a program for the long term benefit of their sons...these daddyball kids and their parents get to high school thinking they're studs... (then) left on on the bench or cut. parents get upset because their kids were soooo good
quote:by Orlando: It's always 'the other guy' who plays Daddyball
quote:Originally posted by TG:quote:Originally posted by rz1:
A Daddy-ball coach usually has that labled put on by an unhappy parent on the team
The story is too long to be told. It involves an infestation at the board level that permeates all the way down to the league and team levels. When a program declines from one thousand participants to less than four hundred, we're not talking about one unhappy parent. My son was never affected from a playing time and position standpoint. He, and many others were affected by a declining quality of competition. It's why we departed.
But as I earlier stated, many of the kids who benefitted from what went on, are now in high school not understanding why they aren't the best players when they were in the program they came through. The dads are ****ed these kids aren't getting playing time or even making varsity and verbally stabbing a good coach in the back. The dads can no longer manipulate the situation and someone else (high school coach) is passing judgement on their kid's talent.
This is why I feel that you are generalizing your opinions based on your experience. If I was in the shoes as you explained them I would also have issues. I cannot speak for the rest of the group but I do not think your situation is as widespread as you think it is.
As far as the numbers, LL as a whole has diminishing numbers for a multitude of reasons. I for one like to look at it as those who remain are those with the burning passion. Besides the fact there are more varied opportunities, for many years LL was looked at as a babysitting tool for a lot of parents, and as soon as those kids outgrew the commitment they were gone. It's time for programs to re-instill passion for the game and reacquaint that group with youth baseball. In the meantime travel teams are keeping the fire burning.
In our area of the country rec ball just doesn't work. A year or two ago my son went with a neighbor to his first practice with a rec team. The coach wanted him to join, the kids wanted him to stop throwing so hard. That was our experience. Now if he didn't play travel, select whatever you want to call it he would be in the same boat as the rest of these kids, lost. Switching to lacrosse or not playing at all. They all look to him as to what work outs they should be doing and much more. This year was a learning experience for him in many ways none of which had to do with baseball. Definitely not fair to him but a life experience that will make him a stronger and better person. More along the lines of Daddy Ball even in HS. Such as favortism, poorly run practices and extremely high pitch counts.
He was kept on a team because he could pitch and gave them a chance to win. When he did get moved up he was still able to stand out. Supposedly they noticed.
He was kept on a team because he could pitch and gave them a chance to win. When he did get moved up he was still able to stand out. Supposedly they noticed.
bb1 and others.
Is LL considered a rec ball in your areas? What is rec ball?
Is LL considered a rec ball in your areas? What is rec ball?
quote:Originally posted by rz1:
bb1 and others.
Is LL considered a rec ball in your areas? What is rec ball?
Parks and Recreation department sponsored leagues. In our area (Central NC) most everyone is affliated with Babe Ruth, Cal Ripken, or the Little TarHeel leagues. The select teams at various age levels play each other on Sundays. At the end of the spring season, an allstar team is formed and they play each other in tourneys during the summer.
So the choice is to play rec and let that be it when your child ages out - our town just added one 13u team, it plays other towns - or play "travel" when a child progresses and wants more. Usually at 12u. We seem to have decent competition, probably due to these older boys leaving the rec departments. "Travel" seems to be filling a need here. Most tourneys are AAU or USSSA. There are a few opens and Triple Crown is trying to start up here.
RZ1
While LL is not considered techically rec ball it has major differences from competitive. The rules as we all know a 12yr old kid pitching from 46ft,at that age we throw from 50. 60ft bases for LL are 70ft. Leading is allowed, dropped 3rd strike. Teams always had a good catcher and not everyone can do it. Such as everyone gets assigned a team in LL. There are no tryouts in LL accept maybe for what division. In competitve there are tryouts and not everyone makes it. There is always a place for a kid to play and they also get to see what other kids are doing. I had a parent play with us in fall one year which is always less competitve because of football. He was amazed at the level of play of these kids and that his son, a year older and a little league "all-star" was not good enough to make the starting line-up. His exact words to me were " I didn't know this kind of baseball existed".
There is no right or wrong answer here but the kids that play rec (less competitve) are normally behind the 8 ball when it comes to HS ball. It certainly does not mean they can't catch-up, it just means they have to work that much harder.
Competitve is a much bigger commitment for both the kids and parents and some do not want to put in the time or money and that's okay. However, when their kids are not playing and other kids are they need to understand the time spent on the field practicing, and effort other parents put in playing catch, going to the field and hitting grounders, flyballs, going to the cages in the winter. Camps.
Nobody ever got better or healthier by playing video games.
While LL is not considered techically rec ball it has major differences from competitive. The rules as we all know a 12yr old kid pitching from 46ft,at that age we throw from 50. 60ft bases for LL are 70ft. Leading is allowed, dropped 3rd strike. Teams always had a good catcher and not everyone can do it. Such as everyone gets assigned a team in LL. There are no tryouts in LL accept maybe for what division. In competitve there are tryouts and not everyone makes it. There is always a place for a kid to play and they also get to see what other kids are doing. I had a parent play with us in fall one year which is always less competitve because of football. He was amazed at the level of play of these kids and that his son, a year older and a little league "all-star" was not good enough to make the starting line-up. His exact words to me were " I didn't know this kind of baseball existed".
There is no right or wrong answer here but the kids that play rec (less competitve) are normally behind the 8 ball when it comes to HS ball. It certainly does not mean they can't catch-up, it just means they have to work that much harder.
Competitve is a much bigger commitment for both the kids and parents and some do not want to put in the time or money and that's okay. However, when their kids are not playing and other kids are they need to understand the time spent on the field practicing, and effort other parents put in playing catch, going to the field and hitting grounders, flyballs, going to the cages in the winter. Camps.
Nobody ever got better or healthier by playing video games.
Excellant reading. Just thought I would put in my two cents from a warm weather site(Phoenix AZ).
I cannot imagine any kid who just played rec ball starting on a HS infield in Phoenix. I am sure that there are the exceptions of an insane athlete, but he would be a project at best and it would take a year or two to get up to speed.
Travel ball is insane out here. In every sport. My son completely dominated in LL this year, he has played travel since he was 9. When we played rec basketball it was the other way around. He was athlete enough to stay with those guys, but from a skill level he wasn't even close. Gotta play youth travel. And it is a blast. We are fortunate that there are so many teams in Phoenix that if you are not a good fit, you can find another one.
And as for Daddy ball, all you have to do is find a team where the coaches' sons' don't play the same position as your kid and everybody will be happy.
I cannot imagine any kid who just played rec ball starting on a HS infield in Phoenix. I am sure that there are the exceptions of an insane athlete, but he would be a project at best and it would take a year or two to get up to speed.
Travel ball is insane out here. In every sport. My son completely dominated in LL this year, he has played travel since he was 9. When we played rec basketball it was the other way around. He was athlete enough to stay with those guys, but from a skill level he wasn't even close. Gotta play youth travel. And it is a blast. We are fortunate that there are so many teams in Phoenix that if you are not a good fit, you can find another one.
And as for Daddy ball, all you have to do is find a team where the coaches' sons' don't play the same position as your kid and everybody will be happy.
bb1 and 55mom thanks for your definitions of rec ball. As with our WI "bubbler" a word in one area of the country may not be the same as another. In this case I think most of us will almost agree that LL is a step up from rec ball. 
10 years ago the Rec league my sons played in (I was on the board)was extremely competitive. In fact, a lot of parents would not come to the league because they felt it was too competitive at that age (6-12) We had to have long meetings to select the coaches of the teams.(Way more dads wanted to coach than slots available)
Once the coaches were selected there would be an evaluation weekend. Each kid would go through drills to show their tools as the coaches watched and took notes. Then we had draft nite, the coaches would pick their players in each round. 12 rounds for 12 kids.(coaches were NOT allowed to tell players or parents which round they were picked).
Now these coaches were fiercely competitive, thus their teams were developed to compete and win.
In this league, if you didn't practice regularly and you didn't know how to teach the fundementals you were going to get embarrased and smoked. If you wanted to win in this league you HAD TO TEACH TEACH TEACH TEACH THE BASICS THE BASICS THE BASICS. One of the beautiful things about this league was the commradery between all the coaches, which was created by the spirit of competition. The other great thing was watching the kids develop during the season. From the first game of the season to the last, it was like night and day with the kids skill level.
The kids coming out of this league were dominating their high school rosters.
WHAT HAPPENED!
Travel teams started to pop up and were picking off our top talent like flies. The parents were sold on greener pastures and were convinced travel ball was the answer. This was happening right before my very eyes. We would have board meetings to address what to do about this talent drain, these meetings were heated, the opinions were all over the place, and we could not come to a consensus for several years.
WHAT DID WE DO!
We finally decided to let each age group 10+ have 1 travel team and go full time(no rec). There was really no choice, it was either that or lose the kids from the league. I was a big advocate of letting the league have travel teams. There were many that opposed my views and had valid arguments. I do not know who was right and who was wrong. The verdict is still in the balance.
What I do know is travel ball has diluted the talent from the rec leagues to such a degree that if your kid has some talent you maybe could be doing him an injustice to stay there and play. Whether it matters or not (travel vs rec) on how they will play at 17/19+ I DOUBT THERE ARE MANY PARENTS IN HERE that would have their kid dominate a rec league(false sense of ability) when there are more competitive options available.
I eventually moved my boys to the travel, I would have preferred to stay in the old rec system, the way it used to be, but that option is no longer available(the way it used to be).
This is just a glimpse of what I have seen in my area, there is a whole lot more to it, but I don't want to write a friggen book here.
NCBALL- you say you are going to drop 12 & 13 travel. If you drop those kids there are just going to play on another travel team somewhere else. It sounds to me like you are someone that really cares about youth baseball. Maybe you could still have 12/13 teams and give them the same opportunities (round robbins and BBQ) as you are the others. Just a thought!
Once the coaches were selected there would be an evaluation weekend. Each kid would go through drills to show their tools as the coaches watched and took notes. Then we had draft nite, the coaches would pick their players in each round. 12 rounds for 12 kids.(coaches were NOT allowed to tell players or parents which round they were picked).
Now these coaches were fiercely competitive, thus their teams were developed to compete and win.
In this league, if you didn't practice regularly and you didn't know how to teach the fundementals you were going to get embarrased and smoked. If you wanted to win in this league you HAD TO TEACH TEACH TEACH TEACH THE BASICS THE BASICS THE BASICS. One of the beautiful things about this league was the commradery between all the coaches, which was created by the spirit of competition. The other great thing was watching the kids develop during the season. From the first game of the season to the last, it was like night and day with the kids skill level.
The kids coming out of this league were dominating their high school rosters.
WHAT HAPPENED!
Travel teams started to pop up and were picking off our top talent like flies. The parents were sold on greener pastures and were convinced travel ball was the answer. This was happening right before my very eyes. We would have board meetings to address what to do about this talent drain, these meetings were heated, the opinions were all over the place, and we could not come to a consensus for several years.
WHAT DID WE DO!
We finally decided to let each age group 10+ have 1 travel team and go full time(no rec). There was really no choice, it was either that or lose the kids from the league. I was a big advocate of letting the league have travel teams. There were many that opposed my views and had valid arguments. I do not know who was right and who was wrong. The verdict is still in the balance.
What I do know is travel ball has diluted the talent from the rec leagues to such a degree that if your kid has some talent you maybe could be doing him an injustice to stay there and play. Whether it matters or not (travel vs rec) on how they will play at 17/19+ I DOUBT THERE ARE MANY PARENTS IN HERE that would have their kid dominate a rec league(false sense of ability) when there are more competitive options available.
I eventually moved my boys to the travel, I would have preferred to stay in the old rec system, the way it used to be, but that option is no longer available(the way it used to be).
This is just a glimpse of what I have seen in my area, there is a whole lot more to it, but I don't want to write a friggen book here.
NCBALL- you say you are going to drop 12 & 13 travel. If you drop those kids there are just going to play on another travel team somewhere else. It sounds to me like you are someone that really cares about youth baseball. Maybe you could still have 12/13 teams and give them the same opportunities (round robbins and BBQ) as you are the others. Just a thought!
quote:From what our son said, when they arrive, some are as raw as raw can be. Give them good instruction and playing a short season and you hardly recognize them by the end of the summer.
I would agree here, but what you are talking about is desire. The Latin kids are full of desire.
In some of the rec leagues I've seen each team usually has a couple of kids that are "players", a couple with desire but not much ability and then some that just come out to get some time away from the TV and video games (sometimes against their will). Now my experience is that all these kids are pretty good kids and I enjoyed being around them and we had a great time, made good friends etc..but
I saw little improvement in the kids that really had potential in this environment. I agree with others in that it dilutes the local leagues of talent, but it also opens up spots for kids that may not have played because of their lack in skills.
Tripledad; just saw what you said, I tried to talk to our local league officials too and no one in "power" wanted to adjust for travel ball. Then their kids had little to no competition for all-stars, but then they didn't progress too far in play offs either.
quote:The Latin kids are full of desire
rz1 the devils advocate asks:
Latin kids are full of desire to leave their Latin country but I wonder when they get to the States how many are overwhelmed and lost in the fast paced American culture and competitive nature of minor League baseball and as a result some of that desire is tempered. Any thoughts on this?
By no means is this a racist statement but I can imagine that the "culture shock" involved with moving to the States results in "going into a shell" reaction and when they become acclimated with their new surroundings their desire is matched by that of their American teammates.
I'll have to go with rz1, the devils advocate, on this one.
Economics is the desire. American players may not be as $$ driven because their $$ needs have generally been met growing up, but I don't think that means they have less desire than latin players.
Economics is the desire. American players may not be as $$ driven because their $$ needs have generally been met growing up, but I don't think that means they have less desire than latin players.
rz1, not sure how to reply except to say your post is way off topic, 10 to 14u travel ball? I thought.
I guess you could say the latin kids are "traveling" here to play ball = "travel ball"
The ones that keep their eye on the baseball instead of all the "distractions" probably do OK.
But hey, at least these days there are enough "latin speaking" buddies around to make it feel like home!
Hey TPM, saw your post after I posted, all I was trying to say is that many kids in the rec leagues I've been around do not have the "drive" to play basebll and improve their skills. For the most part these kids are simply doing it for a diversion in the summer. My son on the other hand would get home from a 2 hour practice and the first thing out of his mouth was "hey Dad, lets play catch". Gosh, how I love those words!
I guess you could say the latin kids are "traveling" here to play ball = "travel ball"
The ones that keep their eye on the baseball instead of all the "distractions" probably do OK.
But hey, at least these days there are enough "latin speaking" buddies around to make it feel like home!
Hey TPM, saw your post after I posted, all I was trying to say is that many kids in the rec leagues I've been around do not have the "drive" to play basebll and improve their skills. For the most part these kids are simply doing it for a diversion in the summer. My son on the other hand would get home from a 2 hour practice and the first thing out of his mouth was "hey Dad, lets play catch". Gosh, how I love those words!
TripleDad- I just can't stomach the parents at that level. I was thinking about putting on clinics in the area with our coaches and will probably do that after this next year. You bring up a good point. Thanks
[QUOTE]Originally posted by AL MA 08:
rz1, not sure how to reply except to say your post is way off topic. /QUOTE]
This topic kind of went out the window a few pages back.
rz was responding to what you said. You brought it up.
If you want to get back on track, I don't see what the term desire has to do with travel ball when you are 10,11,12. I think it sometimes becomes more of the parents desire. Do 10, 11 year olds come to their folks and say "I want to travel so I can play against better competition because rec ball has now become boring"? No, it's the other way around. "We are going to travel so you can get better against playing better competition". What better competition is there when your kid is 10, 11,12? Those ages are the developmental years, practice, practice, practice with playing real games to use what you have learned in practice.
Our children's desires are the by product of our desires. We love the game, we teach our kids to play the game and we see they love it. Then we get these ideas, he's good, maybe he could get his college paid for if he gets better. I will do all I can to make him better, he's only 10 but he'll learn. Myabe he canplay MLB someday. Somewhere between 10 and 17 I will make him understand he can get his college education paid for because he is that good. That's what we have become and that's where we are going.
What's wrong with anyone playing a sport for a diversion? My son played basketball in summer for a diversion for years. His desire to improve his basketball skills were not as great but he sure did have fun and so did the other kids. Is that bad?
To answer the ORIGINAL question asked, no I do not think that pre high school players and teams should be traveling that much. I personally love the idea of more clinics at that age.
JMO.
rz1, not sure how to reply except to say your post is way off topic. /QUOTE]
This topic kind of went out the window a few pages back.
rz was responding to what you said. You brought it up.
If you want to get back on track, I don't see what the term desire has to do with travel ball when you are 10,11,12. I think it sometimes becomes more of the parents desire. Do 10, 11 year olds come to their folks and say "I want to travel so I can play against better competition because rec ball has now become boring"? No, it's the other way around. "We are going to travel so you can get better against playing better competition". What better competition is there when your kid is 10, 11,12? Those ages are the developmental years, practice, practice, practice with playing real games to use what you have learned in practice.
Our children's desires are the by product of our desires. We love the game, we teach our kids to play the game and we see they love it. Then we get these ideas, he's good, maybe he could get his college paid for if he gets better. I will do all I can to make him better, he's only 10 but he'll learn. Myabe he canplay MLB someday. Somewhere between 10 and 17 I will make him understand he can get his college education paid for because he is that good. That's what we have become and that's where we are going.
What's wrong with anyone playing a sport for a diversion? My son played basketball in summer for a diversion for years. His desire to improve his basketball skills were not as great but he sure did have fun and so did the other kids. Is that bad?
To answer the ORIGINAL question asked, no I do not think that pre high school players and teams should be traveling that much. I personally love the idea of more clinics at that age.
JMO.
quote:What better competition is there when your kid is 10, 11,12? Those ages are the developmental years, practice, practice, practice with playing real games to use what you have learned in practice.
TPM you and I have been here a long time and don’t argue but we do have healthy disagreements on some subjects.
BUT--- Could it be that practice, practice, practice relates to work, work, work in the kid’s eyes? Maybe this could lead to “burn out” because -----we all know you "WORK at practice and PLAY at games". If the kids are supposed to be having fun at this age then maybe MORE games and FEWER practices would be appropriate.
As far as you suggesting that there isn't much difference in competition levels at that age I would disagree. My son started traveling at 11 and the increased competitiveness of the players on good travel teams is very intense and obvious at this age. Probably more so than the older ages. Of course parents are competitive at this age too and coupled with the fact they are very involved with their children and their children's sports it difficult for them to remain cool, calm, and collected. Yes, I still have a hard time accepting some parents’ total “involvement” at this age. It looks ugly. These are the people that get the attention. But everyone isn’t that way. You can take one pair of parents, along with their son and mix in travel baseball at this age and you can have one of the most obnoxious periods of a child’s life but on the other hand you can take another pair of parents and their son combine that with travel ball and you have a beautiful, healthy, developmental period of their lives. We cannot paint travel baseball during this time in a child’s life with such a broad brush. I have told the story before of how I was driving my 12 year old son 180 miles almost daily to play baseball ---- but I’ll share it again. I was feeling as if I was “pushing” my son too much and I’ll admit I was having feeling that I might be one of those “obnoxious parents”. Our travel was more intense than most because of the 90 mile commute just to get to the home field. I had never discussed this with my son and one day on one of our long trips he brought it up and said: “Dad, thanks for taking me all the way to Memphis to play baseball.” During those trips we had lots of time to talk and I can tell you he was genuinely appreciative of the effort I was making --- for him. This was so obvious and so contrary to how many people (most who didn’t travel at that age) portray the parent/player/travel during the younger years that I had to share --- just one more time.
Fungo
quote:Originally posted by TripleDad:
10 years ago the Rec league my sons played in (I was on the board)was extremely competitive. In fact, a lot of parents would not come to the league because they felt it was too competitive at that age (6-12) We had to have long meetings to select the coaches of the teams.(Way more dads wanted to coach than slots available)
Once the coaches were selected there would be an evaluation weekend. Each kid would go through drills to show their tools as the coaches watched and took notes. Then we had draft nite, the coaches would pick their players in each round. 12 rounds for 12 kids.(coaches were NOT allowed to tell players or parents which round they were picked).
Now these coaches were fiercely competitive, thus their teams were developed to compete and win.
In this league, if you didn't practice regularly and you didn't know how to teach the fundementals you were going to get embarrased and smoked. If you wanted to win in this league you HAD TO TEACH TEACH TEACH TEACH THE BASICS THE BASICS THE BASICS. One of the beautiful things about this league was the commradery between all the coaches, which was created by the spirit of competition. The other great thing was watching the kids develop during the season. From the first game of the season to the last, it was like night and day with the kids skill level.
The kids coming out of this league were dominating their high school rosters.
WHAT HAPPENED!
Travel teams started to pop up and were picking off our top talent like flies. The parents were sold on greener pastures and were convinced travel ball was the answer. This was happening right before my very eyes. We would have board meetings to address what to do about this talent drain, these meetings were heated, the opinions were all over the place, and we could not come to a consensus for several years.
WHAT DID WE DO!
We finally decided to let each age group 10+ have 1 travel team and go full time(no rec). There was really no choice, it was either that or lose the kids from the league. I was a big advocate of letting the league have travel teams. There were many that opposed my views and had valid arguments. I do not know who was right and who was wrong. The verdict is still in the balance.
What I do know is travel ball has diluted the talent from the rec leagues to such a degree that if your kid has some talent you maybe could be doing him an injustice to stay there and play. Whether it matters or not (travel vs rec) on how they will play at 17/19+ I DOUBT THERE ARE MANY PARENTS IN HERE that would have their kid dominate a rec league(false sense of ability) when there are more competitive options available.
I eventually moved my boys to the travel, I would have preferred to stay in the old rec system, the way it used to be, but that option is no longer available(the way it used to be).
This is just a glimpse of what I have seen in my area, there is a whole lot more to it, but I don't want to write a friggen book here.
NCBALL- you say you are going to drop 12 & 13 travel. If you drop those kids there are just going to play on another travel team somewhere else. It sounds to me like you are someone that really cares about youth baseball. Maybe you could still have 12/13 teams and give them the same opportunities (round robbins and BBQ) as you are the others. Just a thought!
This is very close to the situation we had around here. Rec league (PONY) was very competitive. We had a draft. To win, the coaches had to teach basics. We had some very good coaches. As the boys aged up and progressed, we had a National & American league based on skills. National played other National teams and American played other American teams. My sons National League Colt team was probably the last group before the league was restructured. That team went undefeated two years running, and every kid on that team that wanted to played HS ball. 10 of the 15 boys are playing some level of college ball. After 14 years old they went to travel ball.
Now the league is restructured and no more National & American. It made some kids feel bad because they weren't on the National League team. In addition, Stewards Of The Game came in and caused some changes as they were not as gung ho about winning and more in tune to ensuring equal playing time and pride in all players. The more dedicated players went to Travel Ball and the talent coming out of either of the local rec leagues is now nowhere near what it was. This past season, all the boys on my sons HS team played travel ball. The whole JV team played travel ball and I don't think hardly any played rec league after age 10-12.
Based on my observations, in my area, it appears that in the past you could play rec ball until HS and definitely not be behind. Now that does not appear to be the case as all the advanced players play travel ball.
Recently, the local PONY association has tried to get some of the players back by having an All Star type travel team that played on weekends in local tournaments. This has had some success but is kind of hit and miss and dads get mad and start their own travel team and pull part of the players off the PONY team. I guess this is just an evolution of the game.
As for the fun of playing with the kids you grew up with, my son played Legion Ball this summer with a lot of his old friends - that had went to other area high schools, and several from his old PONY National League team, and he had a blast. Travel ball may be the best at development around here but there is still nothing like playing ball with the local gang.
Fungo,
I got carried away with my point.
I meant practice in lieu of traveling to the other side of the country to win the 10YO national championship.
That's where good coaching comes into the mix. Practice, scimmage, finding the right games for experience.
Look don't get me wrong, my son "traveled" at that age. He was one of those chosen for the "All Star" travel team out of the hundreds who signed up for "rec" ball. By the way our rec ball was VERY competitive. Yes, there were some there who spent time on teh bench because they were not as good as others, doesn't that happen everywhere, even on travel teams? This all star team traveled, to areas close to home for our games. 40-50 minutes the most, liveable distance during the weekdays. Occassionally the coach found a tournament for a holiday weekend and yes we did combine it for family time. We did not play in the summer. We played fall ball, meeting up with most of the teams we had met up with in the spring. As the boys got older, they played more outside of our county, Miami, Hialeah, West Plam Beach. Practice was less and more games played. At 13,14,15 my son played Macabbi baseball, one week per summer. His summers consisted of practices, maybe a tournament to get ready for the BIG week. His summers were still made up of basketball, swimming, golf, a week at Bucky Dents camp or Harry Whites skills camp. One summer he actually gave up baseball camp and went to surf camp for 10 days.
First actual travel summer was as a rising senior, played with one of the best teams in our area, which you know about. It was great preperation, in all aspects.
He competed in PG wood bat events and USA tryouts, making the tryout cut for Houston but not until HS.
All in all, my son played very little off season compared to what is the norm for today. With that he did well and remained healthy. I remember someone telling me once, years ago, limit his play, because he will carry a big load eventually if he gets to college or professional ball. Being a pitcher, I am glad we did that.
Some people argue that here, where I come from, our kids are better because they play year round. In those days many kids did NOT play year round. In fact, most who I know that did not, went further than those who did. We have alot of players in the South Florida area that have gone pro, many you didn't even know existed until late in HS. Many of them I know didn't travel nationally as well.
That's just where I am coming from. A lot of it depends on each families objective and each players ability. There does come a time when you have to decide it is time to face better competition, but at 10,11, 12 I am not buying it. I am not in favor of all of this intense pre-high school travel for trophies every summer weekend. If your player has the love for the game, understands how the game is played and ability, good foundation, healthy he will, if he wants to, not his parents, move ahead.
JMO.
I got carried away with my point.
I meant practice in lieu of traveling to the other side of the country to win the 10YO national championship.
That's where good coaching comes into the mix. Practice, scimmage, finding the right games for experience.
Look don't get me wrong, my son "traveled" at that age. He was one of those chosen for the "All Star" travel team out of the hundreds who signed up for "rec" ball. By the way our rec ball was VERY competitive. Yes, there were some there who spent time on teh bench because they were not as good as others, doesn't that happen everywhere, even on travel teams? This all star team traveled, to areas close to home for our games. 40-50 minutes the most, liveable distance during the weekdays. Occassionally the coach found a tournament for a holiday weekend and yes we did combine it for family time. We did not play in the summer. We played fall ball, meeting up with most of the teams we had met up with in the spring. As the boys got older, they played more outside of our county, Miami, Hialeah, West Plam Beach. Practice was less and more games played. At 13,14,15 my son played Macabbi baseball, one week per summer. His summers consisted of practices, maybe a tournament to get ready for the BIG week. His summers were still made up of basketball, swimming, golf, a week at Bucky Dents camp or Harry Whites skills camp. One summer he actually gave up baseball camp and went to surf camp for 10 days.
First actual travel summer was as a rising senior, played with one of the best teams in our area, which you know about. It was great preperation, in all aspects.
He competed in PG wood bat events and USA tryouts, making the tryout cut for Houston but not until HS.
All in all, my son played very little off season compared to what is the norm for today. With that he did well and remained healthy. I remember someone telling me once, years ago, limit his play, because he will carry a big load eventually if he gets to college or professional ball. Being a pitcher, I am glad we did that.
Some people argue that here, where I come from, our kids are better because they play year round. In those days many kids did NOT play year round. In fact, most who I know that did not, went further than those who did. We have alot of players in the South Florida area that have gone pro, many you didn't even know existed until late in HS. Many of them I know didn't travel nationally as well.
That's just where I am coming from. A lot of it depends on each families objective and each players ability. There does come a time when you have to decide it is time to face better competition, but at 10,11, 12 I am not buying it. I am not in favor of all of this intense pre-high school travel for trophies every summer weekend. If your player has the love for the game, understands how the game is played and ability, good foundation, healthy he will, if he wants to, not his parents, move ahead.
JMO.
quote:AL MA 08 quote:
rz1, not sure how to reply except to say your post is way off topic, 10 to 14u travel ball?
Thank god for the posting police
Sorry all. I promise I will do it again
.