who'a guessedquote:by 55mom: ///I like slashies
///-|||-\\\ ///-|||-\\\ ///-|||-\\\quote:Originally posted by Bee>:who'a guessedquote:by 55mom: ///I like slashies
y'all are such a smart group, I probably didn't even need to say it....
While I know playing competitively has worked out for my son. I also know it's not for everyone.
I also agree that some teams will call themselves travel teams and still be just slightly better than rec.
I've seen teams claim a 60 and 6 record, yet know that they played division 2 all along the way. Did the kids enjoy beating up on those teams and winning lopsided games. I doubt it. Did they get better? Maybe a little but when they try out for HS as "all-stars" they are in for a shock. It was all about the coach saying his team was the best not about teaching the kids and making them better.
Also triple crown does not play full size until age 14 and then a team has a choice of 54, 80's or 60' 6 and 90's.
Find a coach that stresses fundamentals, proper mechanics and works on defense,cut-offs,long toss, hitting, bunting, moving the runner along. To just name a few and stay with him.
I also agree that some teams will call themselves travel teams and still be just slightly better than rec.
I've seen teams claim a 60 and 6 record, yet know that they played division 2 all along the way. Did the kids enjoy beating up on those teams and winning lopsided games. I doubt it. Did they get better? Maybe a little but when they try out for HS as "all-stars" they are in for a shock. It was all about the coach saying his team was the best not about teaching the kids and making them better.
Also triple crown does not play full size until age 14 and then a team has a choice of 54, 80's or 60' 6 and 90's.
Find a coach that stresses fundamentals, proper mechanics and works on defense,cut-offs,long toss, hitting, bunting, moving the runner along. To just name a few and stay with him.
bb1 - that is interesting what you say about TC. Here and at the Summer Nationals in Myrtle Beach, we competed on 60/90 fields. no choice. (13u)
We did great, no complaints.
We did great, no complaints.
quote:Originally posted by Orlando:
Perhaps we should limit the amount of time they spend in school during the grade school years as well. It can be mentally stressful and doesn't relate to what they learn in hs, college and beyond.
I've never heard of a kid damaging a growth plate in their brain from too much school. I've seen and read of too many kids damaging growth plates from excessive sports schedules during the growth years.
I might'a sprained mine trying to follow this topicquote:I've never heard of a kid damaging a growth plate in their brain from too much school
Bob Feller threw the curve at 10 yrs old
quote:Originally posted by 55mom:
Speaking of on topic - Should preHS be traveling so much? Is it worth it? I said no – travel at the younger ages was not necessary in our particular case. My personal observation is that it is necessary for at least two seasons preHS though. I tried to stress it is personal experience from one area of the county.
I think people recognize that quality coaching and play are essential at every level, and parents want their children at the highest. The perception is that “travel” is the highest. It seems like too many parents push their children too far too fast. When asked in the real world, I tell people that if their child is looking for more (serious players, better competition) then they should look outside the local rec league when the players are 11 or 12)
Personal mileage may vary.
Again, Good Luck and Have Fun this Spring.
I think we've arrived at the same place. I believe finding the best competition and coaching once the kids hit the full size field to be the most important element of pre high school training (good training of basic fundamentals on the small field doesn't hurt regardless of competition). This would be 13U and 14U. In fact at 14U we had the team play a few 15U tournaments.
I also believe there are too many parents who push their kids too hard and too fast when they show flashes on the small fields. These are the kids who often end up with arm problems.
quote:Originally posted by bb1:
I also agree that some teams will call themselves travel teams and still be just slightly better than rec.
I've found these to be community teams which are really advanced rec or daddyball teams where daddy creates a place to play for his son who can't make a travel team or doesn't get to play his position of preference, usually for obviously reasons.
quote:I've seen teams claim a 60 and 6 record, yet know that they played division 2 all along the way. Did the kids enjoy beating up on those teams and winning lopsided games. I doubt it. Did they get better? Maybe a little but when they try out for HS as "all-stars" they are in for a shock. It was all about the coach saying his team was the best not about teaching the kids and making them better.
I'd rather see my son lose a 3-2 game getting challenged as a player than get a mercy win over a team of stiffs.
This is a very interesting thread.
It was started by someone who has coached and operated one of the first travel teams in CA. Since then he has built it into one of the most successful on a national scale.
In the past few years, they expanded to the lower age groups. They are now contracting in those age groups.
Reading every post in the thread is very illuminating.
They, to my reading, illustrate why it would be so hard to effectively operate a travel program below the ages of 15-16. To me, the thread demonstrates that there isn't conscensus or agreement on why to play travel ball below age 15, who should play, nor is there conscensus on what benefits are to be expected or the risks involved.
This is a fascinating thread. I would be very interested to hear ncball's perspective as someone trying effectively operate such a program, with so many divergent points of view on how "each" son, who's parent wants the very best for them, will benefit.
It was started by someone who has coached and operated one of the first travel teams in CA. Since then he has built it into one of the most successful on a national scale.
In the past few years, they expanded to the lower age groups. They are now contracting in those age groups.
Reading every post in the thread is very illuminating.
They, to my reading, illustrate why it would be so hard to effectively operate a travel program below the ages of 15-16. To me, the thread demonstrates that there isn't conscensus or agreement on why to play travel ball below age 15, who should play, nor is there conscensus on what benefits are to be expected or the risks involved.
This is a fascinating thread. I would be very interested to hear ncball's perspective as someone trying effectively operate such a program, with so many divergent points of view on how "each" son, who's parent wants the very best for them, will benefit.
quote:I also believe there are too many parents who push their kids too hard and too fast when they show flashes on the small fields. These are the kids who often end up with arm problems.
True. And then there are those kids who push themselves. Big field, little field, back yard, "mamma can we go out to the field?" "Of course" says mom, thinking "...geez I'm still sore from yesterday..." It's hard to how much is too much when they love being out there and you love watching them play.
quote:Originally posted by TG:
I've never heard of a kid damaging a growth plate in their brain from too much school. I've seen and read of too many kids damaging growth plates from excessive sports schedules during the growth years.
You cannot make a generalized statement that too much activity will harm a kid when no one can say what is "too much". Every kid is different and every parent/coach will draw a different line in the sand. If a kid is hurt people look over their shoulder and blame it on this and/or that. Pure hindsight. I agree with you that some coaches and parents go beyond that line, but, there again that is the line I have defined. The line is not clear cut. I think the best way to approach this is keeping an open line of communication between coach/parent/player. At the end of the day the best coach/parent/player are the ones that listen and then react to a situation. What about the player who is not worked very often and is then hurt. People turn around and say "if he would have been used more his arm would have been in better throwing shape". The easy way out is to blame it on the past.
quote:tg quote:
I've never heard of a kid damaging a growth plate in their brain from too much school. I've seen and read of too many kids damaging growth plates from excessive sports schedules during the growth years.
I'm biting my tongue because that is so untrue. There have been numerous studies that have shown that a kids mental state CAN be damaged by to much study and not enough rest. You should be applying your line of thought to both scenarios.
quote:Originally posted by infielddad:
I would be very interested to hear ncball's perspective as someone trying effectively operate such a program, with so many divergent points of view on how "each" son, who's parent wants the very best for them
I don't know if the rule is national or not, but the LL in WI works on a strict pitch count. I feel that not only have they identified a potential problem but are doing something about it at their end. With that said it is also a fact that the rule was made so teams develop more pitchers at the younger age groups. This portion of the rule I think will resolve more of the "excessive inning" issues that occur today.
quote:There have been numerous studies that have shown that a kids mental state CAN be damaged by to much study
I always wondered how I got this way!! Now that you mention it, It was that marathon cram session for the stats final my sr. year. I AINT BEEN DA SAME SINCE!!
Isn't it interesting about how perceptions vary? The kids with passion have nothing over this group for sure.
For kids playing on the less than full sized diamond, here is what I would suggest. Find a coach who emphasizes the fun and the fundamentals. Find a coach who practices in a two (or higher) practice to one game ratio since the learning comes in practice. Play around 50 games per year/season. If you are a pitcher, develop not only a game pitch count maximum but a monthly and yearly count as well. Master the two seam and four seam fast balls, the change up, control, and command. Learn to pitch smart.
Is playing travel of consequence before playing on the full sized diamond? No. But mastery of fundamentals is. Does it make a difference whether you play open or closed diamond ball before the full sized diamond? No. What is there in skills and strategy that you cannot learn in one season? Nothing for the level in which you are playing.
What defines an elite team? The organizer. The term is not applicable to youth baseball. Will travel ball hurt you or burn you out? No but be careful to take care of your arm if you are a pitcher. Will I learn more as a travel player than as a rec player? Maybe. Will I advance my skill level more as a travel player? Maybe.
What are the things necessary to progress in the game of baseball? Number one in importance is your naturally born or innate abilities. Too late to change those now. You should have picked your parents more carefully. You can improve these things only slightly through technique. They include such things as size, stength, a lively arm, speed, quickness, etc.
Number two is learned skills such as catching, throwing, batting, etc. Also an understanding for the game. These can be both taught and learned in a willing player.
Number three is the most neglected part of the game for youth players. The mental side of the game. We still see 12 year olds throwing fits and crying. This includes such items as perseverance, mental toughness, coachability, etc. It is the thing that sinks most players at the college level and beyond.
If you are going on to professional ball, there is a fourth and that is being able to hit effectively with a wooden bat. Develop your hitting technique now.
Finally, develop a real love and passion for the game and for eating hot dogs.
For kids playing on the less than full sized diamond, here is what I would suggest. Find a coach who emphasizes the fun and the fundamentals. Find a coach who practices in a two (or higher) practice to one game ratio since the learning comes in practice. Play around 50 games per year/season. If you are a pitcher, develop not only a game pitch count maximum but a monthly and yearly count as well. Master the two seam and four seam fast balls, the change up, control, and command. Learn to pitch smart.
Is playing travel of consequence before playing on the full sized diamond? No. But mastery of fundamentals is. Does it make a difference whether you play open or closed diamond ball before the full sized diamond? No. What is there in skills and strategy that you cannot learn in one season? Nothing for the level in which you are playing.
What defines an elite team? The organizer. The term is not applicable to youth baseball. Will travel ball hurt you or burn you out? No but be careful to take care of your arm if you are a pitcher. Will I learn more as a travel player than as a rec player? Maybe. Will I advance my skill level more as a travel player? Maybe.
What are the things necessary to progress in the game of baseball? Number one in importance is your naturally born or innate abilities. Too late to change those now. You should have picked your parents more carefully. You can improve these things only slightly through technique. They include such things as size, stength, a lively arm, speed, quickness, etc.
Number two is learned skills such as catching, throwing, batting, etc. Also an understanding for the game. These can be both taught and learned in a willing player.
Number three is the most neglected part of the game for youth players. The mental side of the game. We still see 12 year olds throwing fits and crying. This includes such items as perseverance, mental toughness, coachability, etc. It is the thing that sinks most players at the college level and beyond.
If you are going on to professional ball, there is a fourth and that is being able to hit effectively with a wooden bat. Develop your hitting technique now.
Finally, develop a real love and passion for the game and for eating hot dogs.
infieldad - we did travel ball (12U-14U, and now a 15U fall team) because it was fun! I miss the tournaments, the parents (I know this isn't true for everyone, but our HS parents are rather dramatic, and our AAU parents were very laid back), having a glass of wine (or two...or three) at the hotel pool after the day game, going out to dinner with the team, and, oh, yeah, seeing 2B and his teammates do their thing. We were lucky that we were a D2 team but played lots of games against D1, so our record wasn't that great, but the boys got better and when we went to D2 tournaments, we always played on Sunday.
I miss the tournaments, the parents (I know this isn't true for everyone, but our HS parents are rather dramatic, and our AAU parents were very laid back), having a glass of wine (or two...or three) at the hotel pool after the day game, going out to dinner with the team, and, oh, yeah, seeing 2B and his teammates do their thing. We were lucky that we were a D2 team but played lots of games against D1, so our record wasn't that great, but the boys got better and when we went to D2 tournaments, we always played on Sunday.
People who come to this website and avail themselves of all the information (not just the message boards) will soon figure out that this isn't the place for LL self-annointed stars or Daddyball teams.
There are no hard and fast rules about, well, anything in raising a child. This one's inherently strong and won't have injury problems; that one has some physical weakness that will lead to injury problems. This one is well-trained, that one is overused. And do remember that there are nine players on the field; eight of which are not pitchers.
In all those years with all those teams we knew two guys with growth plate problems, and nobody with TJS until college. That doesn't mean those issuea are rare, they're just our experience and I wouldn't presume to translate that to the world of amateur baseball.
The value of this site is to compare notes with other families facing the same questions. Without this perspective, it's easy to become insular. When discussing younger players, the goal is the hs team and it's not difficult to asses his chances and competition. Should he want to go on to college ball, he's no longer competing against the local pool; depending on where he's set his sites, he may be competing with the entire country.
There are no hard and fast rules about, well, anything in raising a child. This one's inherently strong and won't have injury problems; that one has some physical weakness that will lead to injury problems. This one is well-trained, that one is overused. And do remember that there are nine players on the field; eight of which are not pitchers.
In all those years with all those teams we knew two guys with growth plate problems, and nobody with TJS until college. That doesn't mean those issuea are rare, they're just our experience and I wouldn't presume to translate that to the world of amateur baseball.
The value of this site is to compare notes with other families facing the same questions. Without this perspective, it's easy to become insular. When discussing younger players, the goal is the hs team and it's not difficult to asses his chances and competition. Should he want to go on to college ball, he's no longer competing against the local pool; depending on where he's set his sites, he may be competing with the entire country.
quote:I think these tournaments are "the easy way out". Winning is the priority and development is cast aside. What to do about it? I have my thoughts but would love to hear from the knowledgeable people on this board.
Who do you think is responsible for this "winning is the priorty" way. Is it the coaches or is it really the parents?
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rz1:
You cannot make a generalized statement that too much activity will harm a kid when no one can say what is "too much". Every kid is different and every parent/coach will draw a different line in the sand. If a kid is hurt people look over their shoulder and blame it on this and/or that. Pure hindsight. I agree with you that some coaches and parents go beyond that line, but, there again that is the line I have defined. The line is not clear cut. I think the best way to approach this is keeping an open line of communication between coach/parent/player. At the end of the day the best coach/parent/player are the ones that listen and then react to a situation. What about the player who is not worked very often and is then hurt. People turn around and say "if he would have been used more his arm would have been in better throwing shape". The easy way out is to blame it on the past.
QUOTE]
Well said, rz.
You cannot make a generalized statement that too much activity will harm a kid when no one can say what is "too much". Every kid is different and every parent/coach will draw a different line in the sand. If a kid is hurt people look over their shoulder and blame it on this and/or that. Pure hindsight. I agree with you that some coaches and parents go beyond that line, but, there again that is the line I have defined. The line is not clear cut. I think the best way to approach this is keeping an open line of communication between coach/parent/player. At the end of the day the best coach/parent/player are the ones that listen and then react to a situation. What about the player who is not worked very often and is then hurt. People turn around and say "if he would have been used more his arm would have been in better throwing shape". The easy way out is to blame it on the past.
QUOTE]
Well said, rz.
quote:To me, the thread demonstrates that there isn't conscensus or agreement on why to play travel ball below age 15
And opinions can change over time and experience.
I know mine certainly has!!
Well, Triple, if we were all raising the same kid who plays the same position in the same area of the country....we might (but probably not) reach a consensus. 
quote:Originally posted by 2Bmom:
infieldad - we did travel ball (12U-14U, and now a 15U fall team) because it was fun!
When I watch the high school varsity games and talk to some of the parents, I see and hear factions and agendas. Several of the parents don't even like each other. Maybe it's the nature of the competition. But I also know some of these parents controlled the rec boards at the younger ages and made enemies providing opportunity for their kids and screwing over deserving kids.
Travel ball is a family. The parents spend so much time together they have to come together. Sometimes a parent keeps their distance but it's more their nature than a personality thing. I coach so I don't hear the converastions all day. I've been told all I'm missing is a bunch of second guessing of the coaching staff.
My daughter's high school softball environment was a family. All the parents were travel parents (from six different teams) and pulled together the same way (like a family) for a couple of hours on game day. Then we coached or rooted against each other in the summer.
quote:You cannot make a generalized statement that too much activity will harm a kid when no one can say what is "too much". Every kid is different and every parent/coach will draw a different line in the sand. If a kid is hurt people look over their shoulder and blame it on this and/or that. Pure hindsight. I agree with you that some coaches and parents go beyond that line, but, there again that is the line I have defined. The line is not clear cut.
rz1, I agree with you to an extent. I do, however, think the recent observations from Dr Andrews on the explosion of serious injuries in youth sports, while necessarily based on the past, is important to build into the thought process going forward, if your son is of the age being discussed in this thread.
What I would propose is that Dr Andrews and other highly reputable physicians are identifying for us the increasing "risks" of serious injury from year round baseball.
Just like cigarette smokers, not all are "seriously" injured.
From reading through this thread, I am not convinced, or even close to it, that, if our son were that age, the benefits of year round or travel baseball, for players under 15, with all the other options available to our sons, is better than the other options and the risks of injury.
quote:But I also know some of these parents controlled the rec boards at the younger ages and made enemies providing opportunity for their kids and screwing over deserving kids.
Has there ever been a kid cut from a team that didn't get screwed! (At least in the parents eyes)
quote:Originally posted by TripleDad:quote:To me, the thread demonstrates that there isn't conscensus or agreement on why to play travel ball below age 15
And opinions can change over time and experience.
I know mine certainly has!!
Experiences will vary. The opportunity to play different types of ball may vary based in living in suburban or more rural areas.
We had a kid have to quit our travel team. The coach at his high school told the kid he had to play Connie Mack ball for him if he expected to ever make varsity. The coach wanted control of his prospects.
There's another nearby area where the kids better play Connie Mack if they want to play high school ball. USSSA is better ball here, but a kid better take the path that pleases the high school coach.
I was pointing out kids who got screwed on the way up. They're on the high school team. Now the parents of the screwed kids and the parents who manipulated the screwings are on the same sideline. However, you don't seem them sitting near each other or talking to each other.quote:Originally posted by TripleDad:quote:But I also know some of these parents controlled the rec boards at the younger ages and made enemies providing opportunity for their kids and screwing over deserving kids.
Has there ever been a kid cut from a team that didn't get screwed! (At least in the parents eyes)
We have a severe infestation of daddyball in our immediate area that starts at the lowest levels and works it's way up. People wonder why my son doesn't want to play in the local programs. It's because he wants to play on teams that put the best talent on the field to compete, not the sons of so and so, and so and so, and so and so.
The funny thing is these kids get to high school with an attitude they're good. Then their talent hits the wall like a bug on a windshield.
quote:Originally posted by TripleDad:quote:There have been numerous studies that have shown that a kids mental state CAN be damaged by to much study
I always wondered how I got this way!! Now that you mention it, It was that marathon cram session for the stats final my sr. year. I AINT BEEN DA SAME SINCE!
TripleDad, I'm with ya!
However, I blame it my 1st grade teacher who took us on road trips to every library in the Southern part of the State. Those of us who were the best readers had the most appearances in front of the class to show our stuff. She pushed us hard, too hard. Pretty soon my eyes were strained and I wasn't working on my punctuation mechanics, I was a mess at the end of the year. Why did she do this...pure and simple, she wanted to show the other teachers up. Right behind her were my selfish parents who bought into her "read at all cost" mentality. Finally I burned out, the growth plate in my index finger was shot from following the words on the page, my eyes were always bloodshot from overuse, and when the writing was on the wall I was sitting in the back of the class and another kid took my place. To this day it hurts to pick up a Dr. Seuss book.
damm those adults!
quote:tg quote:
The funny thing is these kids get to high school with an attitude they're good. Then their talent hits the wall like a bug on a windshield.
Another generalized quote that may have some personal merit but by no means the rule. A lot of us on this site were part of those daddy ball leagues and if you think about it daddy ball is the only reason most kids had a chance to play period. If it wasn't for those dads the kids would be dandilion kickers on the sokker team.
RZ, Lets go ahead and begin rehab now!!
You can start here, but go easy. Don't want ya to blow a lobe or even worse, tear the cerebral cortex.
I seen it happen when they try to come back too fast.
You can start here, but go easy. Don't want ya to blow a lobe or even worse, tear the cerebral cortex.
I seen it happen when they try to come back too fast.
TripleDad:
You just dont jump back on that horse. You have to ease into it with a little Kurt Vonagut.
You just dont jump back on that horse. You have to ease into it with a little Kurt Vonagut.
Orlando: You mentioned that you did not have any knowledge of players with injured pitching arms until college. These injuries are cumulative. The symptomology may not show up for some time after the player is out of the injurious environment. In other words, the college coach takes the heat when the damage was actually caused when the player was much younger. Both colleges and professional teams are buying damaged goods.
As travel teams are more and more common in the older age groups and as HS teams become more and more irrelevent I expect to see kids breaking at earlier and earlier ages.
Who will protect the kids? Delusional parents with glory and dollar signs written all over them? Coaches who are building their egos and reputations on the backs of the players? Leagues without regulations regarding pitching? The mind set that if a little is good a lot is better has taken hold and travel ball is out of control.
Only when the law suits begin will the responsible parties take note.
As travel teams are more and more common in the older age groups and as HS teams become more and more irrelevent I expect to see kids breaking at earlier and earlier ages.
Who will protect the kids? Delusional parents with glory and dollar signs written all over them? Coaches who are building their egos and reputations on the backs of the players? Leagues without regulations regarding pitching? The mind set that if a little is good a lot is better has taken hold and travel ball is out of control.
Only when the law suits begin will the responsible parties take note.
Hey, was at a recent showcase, Saw a kid do KAFKA and TOLSTOY on the same day! I heard the kid was full time travel read at 3 months.
What a freak!! Projected to go firstround!!!
What a freak!! Projected to go firstround!!!
quote:Originally posted by 06catcherdad:
Cong, I think you just scored a bullseye with the parent observation.
Just catching up on some reading here and had to chim in. Sure, the parents are the ones looking for better competition. A 10/12/or maybe even 14 is usually not aware of playing against "better competition", like you said, they just want to play, they really do not care. So the parents must care and point the kids in the direction that will improve their game.
It is the parents responsibility to decide the best way to improve their own kids. Our first year in travel ball at 10u was an eye opener. I never saw so many kids playing so well. My son greatly improved playing with what amounts to an all star team all summer. The next year we went back to park ball and I was almost shocked at the way a lot of kids clowned around at practice and only a couple really worked on improving. That was the last year we played park ball.
I believe that my son would not be the player he is today if not for the travel ball experience. Sure it cost alot, and we truned some of the trips into family vacations. Probably could have paid for college with what we spent over the past 5 or 6 years. But the experience my son got is priceless. Getting to watch 90% of it is way over the top priceless for me. Ask my son about it after a summer like this one just past and he would tell you travel ball. I believe he wants to move in to that house at the East Cobb Baseball complex!! I guess it wouldn't be travel ball then, would it!
Would my son have decided to play travel ball? He had no idea what travel ball was at 10 or 12, so how could he decide to do it?
quote:Daque quote:
Only when the law suits begin will the responsible parties take note.
Trust me when I say "soft tissue" injuries are easily argued in court and the result is that it is seldom proven where the guilt lies. A broken bone is a broken bone, ligaments/tendons/muscles can be argued that it was injued/weakened before or that it was genetically unstable to begin with. All of which brings us back to the original argument, what was the cause
quote:by daque: The mind set that if a little is good a lot is better has taken hold and travel ball is out of control.
That is another generalization that is not true. There are many well run travel teams that "get it"
in addition to my brain sprain, my eyes now hurt (sprained retina?)quote:Now the parents of the screwed kids and the parents who manipulated the screwings are on the same sideline
give 'em a break ... try running a community league sometime with no dad volunteersquote:We have a severe infestation of daddyball in our immediate area that starts at the lowest levels and works it's way up
most of those Dads are just doing the best they can ..
and if my memory serves me, some pretty high level coaches I've met (inc a few ACC) have uderstood that
There are many benefits to playing travel ball including educational. But strictly from a baseball player's improvement perspective, just how beneficial is it?
If the parents can come to accept that it is the innate ability of the player that determines how far he will go, we are at least on the same page. If this is not accepted as factual, stoop reading now and have some more Koolaid.
The second most critical item is the mental side of the game. While this can be cultivated in a player by his coach, ost of it has already been done by the family in the rearing process. An example of a miserable failing job would be to witness the 12 year old having a hissy fit or crying on the mound. No mental toughness, resiliancy, self control, composure, etc. Just a blob of jello on the hot pavement.
Finally comes the area where travel can and does have an influence. Skill development and an understanding of the game. Many a HS coach gets fooled by advanced skill development and glitz developed by a gazillion travel games experience. Daddyballers peaked out or almost peaked out. The travel elite of the miniaturized diamond looking like world beaters but unable to function adequately on the full sized diamond. All that has happened is that they have peaked out earlier than they would have playing in rec ball. All the classes, tutors, clinics, and camps just couldn't buy innate ability. They are in twilight of a mediocre career.
As they leave the ssmall fields, 75% will fall by the wayside. The first major cull is taking place. What they did before in travel or all stars means zip to the HS coach. All he wants to know is what they can do now for him. And the parents just won't get it figured out.
If the parents can come to accept that it is the innate ability of the player that determines how far he will go, we are at least on the same page. If this is not accepted as factual, stoop reading now and have some more Koolaid.
The second most critical item is the mental side of the game. While this can be cultivated in a player by his coach, ost of it has already been done by the family in the rearing process. An example of a miserable failing job would be to witness the 12 year old having a hissy fit or crying on the mound. No mental toughness, resiliancy, self control, composure, etc. Just a blob of jello on the hot pavement.
Finally comes the area where travel can and does have an influence. Skill development and an understanding of the game. Many a HS coach gets fooled by advanced skill development and glitz developed by a gazillion travel games experience. Daddyballers peaked out or almost peaked out. The travel elite of the miniaturized diamond looking like world beaters but unable to function adequately on the full sized diamond. All that has happened is that they have peaked out earlier than they would have playing in rec ball. All the classes, tutors, clinics, and camps just couldn't buy innate ability. They are in twilight of a mediocre career.
As they leave the ssmall fields, 75% will fall by the wayside. The first major cull is taking place. What they did before in travel or all stars means zip to the HS coach. All he wants to know is what they can do now for him. And the parents just won't get it figured out.
[/QUOTE]I was pointing out kids who got screwed on the way up. They're on the high school team. Now the parents of the screwed kids and the parents who manipulated the screwings are on the same sideline. However, you don't seem them sitting near each other or talking to each other.[/QUOTE]
How true this is! My older Son never had this problem, I am not sure it was his talent or the quality of the parents my older Son played with. My middle Son seemed to get the brunt of things at every turn. He was/is not the same player as his older brother but he was/is pretty darn good. There was strong clique that he was excluded from.
And yes now there we are on the same team, trying to be civil and cheer the other parents kid on. It is a personal growth experience to be sure. I can't help but harbor some ill feelings yet. But I am deliberately supportive of their kids.
How true this is! My older Son never had this problem, I am not sure it was his talent or the quality of the parents my older Son played with. My middle Son seemed to get the brunt of things at every turn. He was/is not the same player as his older brother but he was/is pretty darn good. There was strong clique that he was excluded from.
And yes now there we are on the same team, trying to be civil and cheer the other parents kid on. It is a personal growth experience to be sure. I can't help but harbor some ill feelings yet. But I am deliberately supportive of their kids.
Staying off topicquote:Originally posted by TripleDad:
RZ, Lets go ahead and begin rehab now!!
You can start here, but go easy. Don't want ya to blow a lobe or even worse, tear the cerebral cortex.
I seen it happen when they try to come back too fast.
True story! When my son went on his freshman DOC trip one of the things they asked around the campfire was what the last book they read was. Josh hadn't even heard of most of the books. Josh said the last book he read was Green Eggs and Ham. Since we made a vacation of taking him to Dartmouth, we had stopped at his cousins home in MO and that was the book he read to his 5 year old cousins. Most everyone just looked at him like
quote:Just catching up on some reading here and had to chim in. Sure, the parents are the ones looking for better competition. A 10/12/or maybe even 14 is usually not aware of playing against "better competition", like you said, they just want to play, they really do not care. So the parents must care and point the kids in the direction that will improve their game.
Why does a parent need to do that when their son is 10 or 12 years old? I am not sure I understand. If at 10-12 years old, the kids just want to play, why isn't that good enough in baseball. Seems to have worked before travel ball grew up as an industry.
Are players better now when they get to age 18/19 because they played travel ball when they were 10-14? Do they love the game more when they are 18/19 because they played travel ball when they were 10-14? Are they better players when they are 18/19 because they played travel ball to the exclusion of other sports when they were 10-14.
I would be interested in your views.
infielddad- Thank you for the kind words. The last two years have been incredibly illuminating. I have seen some bizarre things at the 12-14 year old level. I have coached for a long time (20+ years)and started our program back in 1992. That said, I've seen more crazy things in the last two years than all the years combined.
I was physically threatened after one game last year (the little guy will go nameless)and harrassed by a guy who runs a prominent 12-13 program from Houston this last summer. This guy would high-five guys AT THE PLATE after homers and taped his fingers to flash signs to the catcher! He also verbally abused this catcher at the top of his lungs while walking out to the mound because the kid called a pitchout on his own. His mother's response was that it was okay because this guy could help her son "go places".
We had a kid pitch 190 pitches againt us in three days this last February because the guy running his program wanted to knock us out of a national bid. That's not okay! I could go on and on and on.
I don't think people "get it" at 14 and below. These are the years to develop and learn the game. It needs to be fun. We are as guilty as any about too much travel and will be scaling WAY back. We plan to hold more round-robin events with four quality teams on weekends. Split the umpire costs and have barbecues for the teams. This will replace going to local tournaments who offer horrible competition and win at any cost attitudes. Zero development and striving to win that plastic trophy!
Bottom line- Competition helps make you better but setting up on a more regional basis instead of a national basis seems to make more sense. Go seek out quality teams and have a home and home series. Why pay a tournament organizer ridiculous amounts of money when you could cut the fees to help the parents? Why not have more quality practices where you can actually take a pre-game in and out. I'm convinced that's why you invariably see the pitcher lined up as the cut in many games because he has not practiced where to back up! Work on base running which is the poorest aspect of most teams. Let's get back to our roots and actually TEACH the game.
I was physically threatened after one game last year (the little guy will go nameless)and harrassed by a guy who runs a prominent 12-13 program from Houston this last summer. This guy would high-five guys AT THE PLATE after homers and taped his fingers to flash signs to the catcher! He also verbally abused this catcher at the top of his lungs while walking out to the mound because the kid called a pitchout on his own. His mother's response was that it was okay because this guy could help her son "go places".
We had a kid pitch 190 pitches againt us in three days this last February because the guy running his program wanted to knock us out of a national bid. That's not okay! I could go on and on and on.
I don't think people "get it" at 14 and below. These are the years to develop and learn the game. It needs to be fun. We are as guilty as any about too much travel and will be scaling WAY back. We plan to hold more round-robin events with four quality teams on weekends. Split the umpire costs and have barbecues for the teams. This will replace going to local tournaments who offer horrible competition and win at any cost attitudes. Zero development and striving to win that plastic trophy!
Bottom line- Competition helps make you better but setting up on a more regional basis instead of a national basis seems to make more sense. Go seek out quality teams and have a home and home series. Why pay a tournament organizer ridiculous amounts of money when you could cut the fees to help the parents? Why not have more quality practices where you can actually take a pre-game in and out. I'm convinced that's why you invariably see the pitcher lined up as the cut in many games because he has not practiced where to back up! Work on base running which is the poorest aspect of most teams. Let's get back to our roots and actually TEACH the game.